Ulster 2016/2017

by Redman Fri 28 Apr 2017, 5:46 pm

First topic message reminder :

Redman wrote:
clivemcl wrote:Any inside info on Dom Ryan yet? 27 and the only IQ backrower not tied up for next year. Where do you put his out of interest in a pecking order? Better or worse than Clive Ross? My hunch is better, but I've not really ever watched him closely.

Has to be better. I looked him up before and he has something like 100 or so caps for Leinster. Ross has about 50 for us, and it's got to be tougher to get a cap for Leinster than it is for Ulster in the backrow - even allowing for international call ups.

Dryan ®, as he shall be known if he signs, also has 20 or so U20 caps.

That said, I haven't seen him play.

by Don Alfonso Sun 28 May 2017, 9:35 pm

I posted a long response there but my phone disappeared it.

Long story short, I don't give a toss about Andress. I get bored by the tedious fetishisation of Leinster and Munster. It wasn't long ago I was being told they -an Ospreys - were a class apart. The Scarlets have spanked all three in the last month or so. It was the third humiliating defeat in a row for Leinster, it was the second final in three years Munster have made it to and looked painfully outclassed. None of them has won anything other than the B&I cup in three years. I wish we would forget about their tedious mythologies and just focus on Ulster.

This year, the Ulster provincial club player of the year was an eighteen year old lad called Joe Dunleavy, a backrow from Letterkenny. A talented young forward from outside the traditional set-up, who made his debut for Ulster A in March. Things are finally starting to change.

But no, some Ulsterman that we didn't want was impressed by how important some South African thought it was to have Munstermen playing for Munster, and that should be of concern to us.

by marty2086 Mon 29 May 2017, 9:20 am

How long have we been saying change has been coming?

You can say others don't matter but when they have a culture and processes that bring about constant cycles of success the question needs to be asked what are others doing that we aren't. It's how it's done in all walk of life.

At Munster and Leinster when young guys coming through they know the standards they have to meet and the style they have to play, what way do Ulster play? You think things like culture and style don't matter you're entitled to your opinion but you're wrong

by eirebilly Mon 29 May 2017, 9:29 am

marty2086 wrote:How long have we been saying change has been coming?

You can say others don't matter but when they have a culture and processes that bring about constant cycles of success the question needs to be asked what are others doing that we aren't. It's how it's done in all walk of life.

At Munster and Leinster when young guys coming through they know the standards they have to meet and the style they have to play, what way do Ulster play? You think things like culture and style don't matter you're entitled to your opinion but you're wrong

Speaking as a Munster fan, culture and style matter a lot here.

by Kingshu Mon 29 May 2017, 9:50 am

When Ulster reached the H-Cup final we were building a culture.
it may have been a cult of Muller culture but we had one.

Its funny how winning teams have a culture and the others have to build one.

I do feel we have lost our way a bit, and hope that Gibbs comes in and builds one in his style, of hard work and no backwards steps.

On Andress yes Munster did sign him, but there are not a lot of IQ props so it was a good squad addition, but I think what he's saying sounds more like a player trying to justify to himself why he wasn't picked.
Its easier on the ego to think that the coach would pick Munstermen first rather than that they were better or level with more potential.

by Don Alfonso Mon 29 May 2017, 10:28 am

marty2086 wrote:How long have we been saying change has been coming?

You can say others don't matter but when they have a culture and processes that bring about constant cycles of success the question needs to be asked what are others doing that we aren't. It's how it's done in all walk of life.

At Munster and Leinster when young guys coming through they know the standards they have to meet and the style they have to play, what way do Ulster play? You think things like culture and style don't matter you're entitled to your opinion but you're wrong

This actually made me laugh out loud.

I don't disagree in terms of culture and style being important. That's completely a straw man argument.

What I did say, was that your starry-eyed assessment of the cultures and styles of the other provinces, I personally find to be way off. It wasn't long ago that Leinster were failing to make the Pro12 play-offs under MOC. That wasn't culture - that was rubbish coaching. It wasn't long ago that Axel Foley was backing Ian Keatley over native Munsterman JJ Hanrahan - a player I think we can all agree has a higher ceiling than Keatley. That doesn't sound like the "local lads first" culture their current South African in charge was talking about. I'll be frank - they're hopefully on their way back, but Munster have been mince for the last couple of seasons. It hasn't looked like a constant cycle of success to me.

You're trying to make my argument simpler and more reductive than it is. Let me ask you a question - what was the Munster style under Penney? What did they spend three(?) seasons trying to play? Fast, offloading rugby, skills-orientated. That was about the decision of the coaching staff. Who were head-hunted and brought in by the Munster blazers.

Ulster need a boot up the hole and a better culture - no question. Gibbes will give us that, hopefully. He did - in conjunction with Cheika - to Leinster, who were the Ladyboys before that, Fancy Dan backs who won zip, who were always found it. There was no constant cycle of success then.

The other provinces' cultures and styles have changed and their fortunes have also risen and fallen. I don't think either has an inherent culture that means they will always inevitably rise to the top.

I think that we had a great culture under Muller - it just didn't happen for us. Jared Payne's red card against Saracens, playing our Pro12 "home" final at the opposition's ground. I suspect if those things hadn't happened, our culture would be healthier. Success breeds success - instead we were the nearly men. I'll be honest - I think Leinster need to guard against the same thing happening to them. Their born and bred Leinster coach didn't trust a young gun, who knew what he had to do etc, at 10, and a clearly injured Sexton was abominable, and contributed significantly to them losing. That doesn't sound at all like the confident, amazeballs team culture you're so struck by.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 29 May 2017, 10:56 am

You're entitled to your opinion, Don. But you're wrong.

by Don Alfonso Mon 29 May 2017, 11:01 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:You're entitled to your opinion, Don. But you're wrong.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion about me being entitled to my opinion but being wrong, Rory, but you're wrong.

by eirebilly Mon 29 May 2017, 11:02 am

You're all wrong, just listen to Munster fans. We are never wrong thumbsup

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 29 May 2017, 11:04 am

Don Alfonso wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:You're entitled to your opinion, Don. But you're wrong.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion about me being entitled to my opinion but being wrong, Rory, but you're wrong.

by Don Alfonso Mon 29 May 2017, 11:04 am

eirebilly wrote:You're all wrong, just listen to Munster fans. We are never wrong

Bloody Munster fans and their sense of entitlement (to their opinions).

by eirebilly Mon 29 May 2017, 11:06 am

Don Alfonso wrote:
eirebilly wrote:You're all wrong, just listen to Munster fans. We are never wrong

Bloody Munster fans and their sense of entitlement (to their opinions).

Not a sense of entitlement, a god given right thumbsup

by Don Alfonso Mon 29 May 2017, 11:07 am

eirebilly wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:
eirebilly wrote:You're all wrong, just listen to Munster fans. We are never wrong

Bloody Munster fans and their sense of entitlement (to their opinions).

Not a sense of entitlement, a god given right

It's in your culture.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 29 May 2017, 11:09 am

Didn't do much good the other night. Run

by eirebilly Mon 29 May 2017, 11:12 am

Back in your boxes and learn your place Ulster fans thumbsup

by Don Alfonso Mon 29 May 2017, 11:12 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Didn't do much good the other night.

Tsk, tsk.

Billy, why not start a Munster thread next season? I think you guys deserve one.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 29 May 2017, 11:13 am

Seriously though, Don does have a point. I've been guilty of overhyping Leinster and Munster all season, but the last few games have shown that they aren't actually that far ahead of Ulster. There is truth that Munster have been driven by emotion which eventually dried out, masking some of their weaknesses which became prevalent as the season progressed. As for Leinster, the talented kids shown their utter inexperience at the top level, again not so far away from our talented players who aren't hitting the heights expected (Olding being the prime example).

However, we do have serious issues bringing through young players in the pack which will need to be addressed immediately.

by eirebilly Mon 29 May 2017, 11:14 am

Don Alfonso wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Didn't do much good the other night.

Tsk, tsk.

Billy, why not start a Munster thread next season? I think you guys deserve one.

Nah, we already know everything so no need to do threads angel

by Kingshu Mon 29 May 2017, 11:41 am

eirebilly wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:
eirebilly wrote:You're all wrong, just listen to Munster fans. We are never wrong

Bloody Munster fans and their sense of entitlement (to their opinions).

Not a sense of entitlement, a god given right

More likely given to Munster by Nucifora Whistle

by eirebilly Mon 29 May 2017, 11:52 am

Kingshu wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:
eirebilly wrote:You're all wrong, just listen to Munster fans. We are never wrong

Bloody Munster fans and their sense of entitlement (to their opinions).

Not a sense of entitlement, a god given right

More likely given to Munster by Nucifora

by The Great Aukster Mon 29 May 2017, 1:58 pm

Both Leinster and Munster have lost legends of the game in recent seasons, guys who were refined in the fires of disappointment and then finally broke through to win silver. These are the custodians of culture passing the tribal ways on to the next generation in the best anthropomorphic tradition. The weight of their experience carries the required gravitas to get the message across and there needs to be at least as many of them across the team as there are new ears to hear the message.
Ulster have only really had Ferris in recent years who is home grown and would fit into that category. Pienaar and Muller were also revered but alas we know how that finished.

by marty2086 Mon 29 May 2017, 2:22 pm

A good read on the whole thing

http://pics.hawkeyesports.com/Legacy%20-%20James%20Kerr.pdf

by neilthom7 Mon 29 May 2017, 8:10 pm

If Les Kiss or Bryn Cunningham isn't spending all their time talking to all of the Barbarians backrows this week while they are in Ulster why are we even employing them lol

by marty2086 Tue 30 May 2017, 9:27 am

Been thinking the same myself Neil, I wonder if Dusautoir could do a year for us and Vito has been added to the squad for the game didn't we try to tempt him before, more than a coincidence maybe Whistle

by Redman Tue 30 May 2017, 10:36 am

Alas,

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/76550323/victor-vito-a-big-loss-to-new-zealand-rugby-says-ken-laban

3 year contract signed back in 2016.

I love Dusautoir, the man is a titan but I fear for him after he gives up rugby. I can think of few players who have put their body on the line quite as much. I'd like to see him retire and enjoy a good life.

by Don Alfonso Tue 30 May 2017, 11:05 am

Someone on another forum saying Deysel for two years for Ulster.

by marty2086 Tue 30 May 2017, 11:06 am

Ulster Rugby is delighted to announce the capture of powerful Springbok back row Jean Deysel, who will arrive at Kingspan Stadium in mid-July on a two-year deal.

The 32-year-old South African, capped four times by his country, will join from the Sharks Super Rugby franchise. He has made 156 appearances for the Durban-based outfit since joining from the Lions in 2007.

His selection for the Emerging Springboks in their match against the touring British & Irish Lions in 2009 pre-empted a call-up for South Africa's end of season tour to Europe. He made his Test debut against Italy in November that year and has played in a further three Tests, all of which came during the 2011 Tri-Nations Series.

More recently, Deysel signed a contract to join Japanese side Toyota Verblitz at the conclusion of the 2014 Super Rugby season, before returning to the Sharks.

Earlier this year he joined Munster on a three-month loan deal as injury cover and was heavily involved in the latter stages of the season.

Operations Director Bryn Cunningham was happy to secure the services of Deysel:

"I'm very pleased with this outcome as I think Jean will add real value to our squad both on and off the pitch. We had a sizeable list of potential targets, even at this late stage of the season, but we believed Jean would be the best fit because his attributes are exactly what we need moving forward.

"He is one of the strongest ball carriers in South African rugby and he really relishes the physical side of the game. He is abrasive and confrontational, with the ball and without the ball, as we have witnessed first-hand for Munster.

"Jean has captained the Sharks a number of times and that leadership ability and added experience will be important for us as we look to nurture some talented young forwards in our pathway.

"When you add in a fit-again Marcell (Coetzee), Schalk (van der Merwe) arriving to add strength to the front-row competition and guys like Kieran (Treadwell) and Sean (Reidy) continuing to excel, the signs are good for a more robust and dominant forward pack next season."

by marty2086 Tue 30 May 2017, 11:08 am

Mixed feelings on that one, plays too close to the line too often and has crossed it a few times as well

by Don Alfonso Tue 30 May 2017, 11:12 am

I was hoping for more, I was expecting less.

by Redman Tue 30 May 2017, 11:14 am

I've not watched much of Munster this season so can't comment on his performances but does smack of a panic buy. Everyone knew he was leaving Munster, we had a vacancy post Botha ........ have to wonder did we even speak to anyone else?

by marty2086 Tue 30 May 2017, 11:23 am

It terms of what Ulster are lacking he ticks all the boxes, big powerful ball carrier, has an edge to him, can cover the across the backrow and can play second row too

by Redman Tue 30 May 2017, 11:29 am

marty2086 wrote:It terms of what Ulster are lacking he ticks all the boxes, big powerful ball carrier, has an edge to him, can cover the across the backrow and can play second row too

Well that's a positive I guess. What's his injury record like? I noticed before he was generally on the bench for Munster. Competition for places or because he was just through the door?

by marty2086 Tue 30 May 2017, 11:43 am

He was signed by Munster to cover lock and funnily enough I don't think he played there for them but their back row was pretty set though they may have been better playing him ahead of Stander for a while given Stander looked so under powered

Quick Google search shows he has ruptured his PCL before Shocked

it was 7 years ago though

by **profitius** Tue 30 May 2017, 12:01 pm

Good signing. Not the most mobile player but he'll add some steel to the pack.

by geoff999rugby Tue 30 May 2017, 12:39 pm

That will do for me - big power player.
Alongside Coetzee we can compete in the back row now.

Just reviewed this Munster pick locals nonsense.
Next year they have 17 backs listed - 8 of them were not born in Munster.

As said nothing to do with picking locals (if Andress believes that it just shows how thick he is)
everything to do with coaching.
In the last 10 years they have been better coached than us.

The Scarlets game showed they will need to adapt their game - what worked 5 to 10 years ago isn't enough now.
I was at the game - the score flattered Munster.

They have been running on an emotional factor this year(much like we did after Nevin Spence dies)
There are some serious deficiencies they need to resolve, mind you their deficiencies are not as big as ours

by **rodders** Tue 30 May 2017, 1:52 pm

Looks like a very good signing but it seems bizarre that Nucifera blocked Pienaar but is ok with a 2 year contract for a 32 year old South African backrower when we already have Marcel.

Will we be allowed to play both at the same time?

by Don Alfonso Tue 30 May 2017, 2:18 pm

I suppose the logic is that there's no way he can block Ulster talent for too long. Two years is hopefully hen we should start seeing Allison, Hall and Rea junior breaking through. Hopefully Dunleavy can feature before then.

by geoff999rugby Tue 30 May 2017, 2:42 pm

The youngsters you will see in the backrow next year will be Timoney, Rea and Jones

by Rory_Gallagher Tue 30 May 2017, 3:10 pm

Deysel would be an excellent signing given the circumstances. However, given his very powerful and aggressive style of play mixed with his age, it could be a risk in terms of injury. He seems like more of an impact player these days rather than an 80 minute man. Still, if you want a big carrier and someone good at the breakdown, you couldn't do much better.

by marty2086 Tue 30 May 2017, 3:23 pm

Just seen an interview with Tadhg Beirne saying he has another year left on his Scarlets deal, I hope Bryn has been watching him wouldn't be a bad addition to the squad in the future

by eirebilly Tue 30 May 2017, 8:10 pm

Thieves

by marty2086 Wed 31 May 2017, 9:17 am

eirebilly wrote:Thieves

How's Sam Arnold getting on? Whistle

by eirebilly Wed 31 May 2017, 9:27 am

marty2086 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Thieves

How's Sam Arnold getting on?

Touché

Seriously though, a very good signing for you thumbsup

by marty2086 Wed 31 May 2017, 9:37 am

eirebilly wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Thieves

How's Sam Arnold getting on?

Touché

Seriously though, a very good signing for you

I didn't see him much for you guys billy, how was his discipline?

Always remember him for the Sharks being capable of being a bit of a thug, his stamp a few years back was one of the worst things I've seen in a game

by Kingshu Wed 31 May 2017, 12:30 pm

Have seen some fans were hoping fo rbetter than Deysel, but at this late stage I think he's a good signing.
Plays across the back row, and covers Lock as well, just the type of player we need.
We haven't really had a good forward since Ferris and Williams one good season.

To being a bit of a thug, as long as he doesn't overstep the mark then good, our forwards need to tighten up, we need somone who enjoys the physical side of things.

by marty2086 Wed 31 May 2017, 1:24 pm

I think he's a good signing regardless of the timeframe, he's a very stereotypical Saffer backrow

Another experienced player would be a good in the backrow though but when you through in some new young additions and you have Henderson there too and Browne can play there too we can have a bit of depth next season

We can also hopefully field a team containing Treadwell, Henderson, Coetzee, Deysel, Reidy, Piutau, Trimble and McCloskey, those are some ball carriers there who have punch holes in defences

by The Great Aukster Wed 31 May 2017, 2:07 pm

Deysel has a better fitness record than Botha, and by all accounts has a bit of dog that is currently missing so should be a good signing.
That only leaves another Backrow and Lock that Ulster need!

It is apparent that Nucifora is unable to influence the movements of players between provinces so what exactly can he do? In a position where Ireland have supposedly a surfeit of riches and therefore some IQ players getting very limited gametime, Nucifora can do nothing but sanction the move of Deysel (an NIQ player) to Ulster against the perceived rules. Either he is not fit to apply the rules or the rules are not fit for purpose, but whichever is true his retainer is simply a waste of money.

It is high time the rules that Pat Whelan introduced were revoked and the year on year reduction of NIQs reversed. In the five seasons before the restrictions were introduced Irish provinces won four European Cups and in the five since they have won none. The provinces are artificially handicapping themselves against competing for the highest honours and therefore that will also harm the National side.
Say the NIQ limit was 5 per province, so with everyone fit that provides 40 IQ players who are playing at potentially a higher level because the overall quality is higher. If the NIQ limit is 3 that provides 48 IQ players but is maybe over the tipping point where even top quality NIQ players can't become the critical factor in success. It has to be better to have 40 players used to the highest level of rugby than 48 just failing to meet the mark. Capped all Blacks and Boks have to be good for the culture that Marty pointed out earlier - even if they are not fit or rested.

The IRFU need to wake up and throw out Nucifora with a revamp of the NIQ rules, as it is obvious that neither are working.

by Guest Wed 31 May 2017, 4:55 pm

Happy with Deysel. Sort of player that Ulster are in desperate need of. A player with a bit of nasty, and hopefully it's infectious.

by eirebilly Wed 31 May 2017, 5:09 pm

marty2086 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Thieves

How's Sam Arnold getting on?

Touché

Seriously though, a very good signing for you

I didn't see him much for you guys billy, how was his discipline?

Always remember him for the Sharks being capable of being a bit of a thug, his stamp a few years back was one of the worst things I've seen in a game

Actually not too bad. He is a big unit and I think will do quite well at Ulster, probably better than he did with Munster.

by Don Alfonso Wed 31 May 2017, 5:47 pm

Delighted for Sean Reidy on his call-up for Irish tour.

by marty2086 Thu 01 Jun 2017, 11:00 am

Matthew Rea playing tonight against the BaaBaas, will be interesting to see how he gets on. Nick Timoney is in Moscow this weekend playing for the Ireland 7s

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