England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

by **LondonTiger** Mon 19 Jun 2017, 11:49 am

First topic message reminder :

At some point in the summer, Eddie Jones will announce his initial EPS. He has been talking about the difficulty he faces trying to whittle it down to that number and it will be interesting to see what he comes up with. Who would be in your EPS?

As a reminder:

The deal with PRL allows Eddie Jones to name a 45 man squad. the clubs get money for players contributed, Jones can call on them for an agreed amount of training camps and England can (to a degree) manage their workload. Jones is allowed to make a number of changes to this half way through the season. Separate 33 man training squads are announced prior to the AIs and the 6Ns - these squads are NOT restricted to players in the EPS.

Last Seasons EPS members (Bold in Both, Italics added on 31st December, normal font dropped from squad):

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)
Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Sam Jones (Wasps)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Tommy Taylor
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Dan Robson (Wasps)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Joe Simpson (Wasps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

by Geordie Mon 02 Oct 2017, 1:39 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Eddie brings in people that he wants to talk to or wants to assess or try something new with.....I interpreted Sinklers absence from the list as in EJ knows what he needs to know about Sinks - not that he wasn't going to select him.
Now its a different matter - intentional or not Sinkler is looking at a probable ban. Someone has to come in and be effective off the bench!

Exactly.

He's already seen half the players...he knows what they're training and progression instructions are...so they're not in these training squads.

by king_carlos Mon 02 Oct 2017, 1:49 pm

Mako
George
Sinckler
Itoje
Farrell
Daly
Watson

Those were the England players most involved with the Lions tests. Nowell, Te', Lawes and Kruis also got test caps but with fewer minutes I believe. Of course there is the argument that the tour itself, it's length and intensity of training is the biggest factor in it leading to burnout and future injuries. In which case Marler, Haskell and Joseph are also a risk.

I hope that Mako, George, Itoje, Farrell and Watson are rested at least.

1.Marler 2.Hartley 3.Cole 4.Launchbury 5.Lawes 6.Robshaw 7.Underhill 8.Hughes
9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.May 12.Slade 13.Daly 14.Nowell 15.Brown

16.LCD 17.Genge 18.Williams 19.Kruis 20.Clifford 21.Care 22.Te'o 23.Joseph

That's still a strong 23, with Haskell to come in if injury does hit the back row. The biggest absence is Farrell but as he's arguably England's most influential player that's unsurprising.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 02 Oct 2017, 1:55 pm

LCD is injured still as is Taylor so you'd be looking at Dunn yeandle or youngs possibly.

by Geordie Mon 02 Oct 2017, 2:42 pm

Yeandle is a solid hooker. Would do a job, and Jones has been looking at Dunn in the training squad hasn't he?

Really cant see Youngs being involved with his current personal life situation.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 02 Oct 2017, 2:48 pm

Youngs ship has sailed.

Socino at Falcons become eligible soon.

by propdavid_london Mon 02 Oct 2017, 3:33 pm

Agree, Tom Youngs coming back would not be a positive.
Not sure about Dunn, don't really know much about him to be honest!
You would have thought that Hartley, George, LCD, Taylor would be enough strength in depth! I would have thought a youngster like Thacker may have been more likely to be called up by EJ - or Jack Singleton etc.

by Geordie Mon 02 Oct 2017, 3:38 pm

Socino has been a revelation so far this season some of his offloading and link play for a hooker has been outstanding...aside from being rock solid in the core skills......but he's Argentinian. Lets stick to English where we can.

The AI's will be Hartley, George off the bench and someone like Singleton in the squad.

by BamBam Mon 02 Oct 2017, 3:41 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Socino has been a revelation so far this season some of his offloading and link play for a hooker has been outstanding...aside from being rock solid in the core skills......but he's Argentinian. Lets stick to English where we can.

The AI's will be Hartley, George off the bench and someone like Singleton in the squad.

I thought Socino was a centre!

by Scottrf Mon 02 Oct 2017, 3:44 pm

BamBam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Socino has been a revelation so far this season some of his offloading and link play for a hooker has been outstanding...aside from being rock solid in the core skills......but he's Argentinian. Lets stick to English where we can.

The AI's will be Hartley, George off the bench and someone like Singleton in the squad.

I thought Socino was a centre!

Both. Santiago Socino - hooker and Juan Pablo Socino - centre.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 02 Oct 2017, 3:53 pm

EJ seems to select youth were possible, I can't see him moving this plan to bring an older 3rd choice hooker. It's not like Youngs etc have been playing that well either tbh

by Scottrf Mon 02 Oct 2017, 3:58 pm

Haywood has been good...

by BamBam Mon 02 Oct 2017, 4:05 pm

Scottrf wrote:
BamBam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Socino has been a revelation so far this season some of his offloading and link play for a hooker has been outstanding...aside from being rock solid in the core skills......but he's Argentinian. Lets stick to English where we can.

The AI's will be Hartley, George off the bench and someone like Singleton in the squad.

I thought Socino was a centre!
Both. Santiago Socino - hooker and Juan Pablo Socino - centre.

Learn something new every day

by No 7&1/2 Mon 02 Oct 2017, 4:18 pm

I just want to see youngs for the hissy fit from Sgt! His personal circumstances may well.rule him out.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 02 Oct 2017, 4:27 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I just want to see youngs for the hissy fit from Sgt! His personal circumstances may well.rule him out.

Its not to happen! I would have a major tantrum if it did though.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 02 Oct 2017, 4:53 pm

This was just if we rule george out after Taylor and LCD look doubtful Sgt. I'm only half joking. I'd be fine seeing him on the bench. Haywood I forgot about but think youngs is better anyway.

by DaveM Mon 02 Oct 2017, 11:28 pm

I was very pleasantly surprised by Mercer. Clearly hugely talented I think there were questions about his work-rate, but he was everywhere against Wasps.

What with Underhill, the Currys, Simmons, and Clifford the backrow is looking like an area of increasing strength.

As for Mallinder - he must be doing something right for Saints at the moment at 10. I can't see him as an international FB though - surely he doesn't have the pace/acceleration?

by king_carlos Mon 02 Oct 2017, 11:53 pm

I don't see Mallinder as a 15 but he is pretty rapid to be fair. Like a lot of tall, quick guys he may not look it at a glance but that 6'5'' stride covers ground very easily.

I hope he sorts his defence enough to fulfill his talent at 12. At 10 and 15 I think his decision making and temperament would let him down at international level. At 12 his power could be used more as well as his pace when things open up.

His huge boot is very well suited to taking pressure off a 10 as well.

by Geordie Tue 03 Oct 2017, 9:01 am

DaveM wrote:I was very pleasantly surprised by Mercer. Clearly hugely talented I think there were questions about his work-rate, but he was everywhere against Wasps.

What with Underhill, the Currys, Simmons, and Clifford the backrow is looking like an area of increasing strength.

As for Mallinder - he must be doing something right for Saints at the moment at 10. I can't see him as an international FB though - surely he doesn't have the pace/acceleration?

I agree...however wheres the bruising 6's coming through? The 6'5 brick walls. Young models of Haskell or Jerry Collins etc. Or are they not required in modern rugby now. Ie Is 6'2 all rounders more in call these days.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Oct 2017, 9:13 am

Simmons is that bruising 6 or could be. Underhill hits as hard as anyone tackling wise. The thing which strikes me of that group is a range of skills.

by Geordie Tue 03 Oct 2017, 9:17 am

I agree, Underhill does look to be an immensely powerful lad.

Who is Simmons?

by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Oct 2017, 9:21 am

The young guy at Exeter. Started like a house on fire before I believe a concussion forced him off. Has played 8 but can easily play 6.

by Geordie Tue 03 Oct 2017, 9:31 am

Ah Sam Simmonds.
Another I have barely seen play so cant really comment on.

Its only this season I have actually been able to see Underhill after the years of hype

by propdavid_london Tue 03 Oct 2017, 9:36 am

James Chisholm if he can come back in last seasons form (following injury) will be in the mix I am sure - definitely brings that physical edge.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Oct 2017, 9:37 am

Ha. Forgot him as well. So same old. Several options and down to jones to pick his preference and persevere for a while.

by Geordie Tue 03 Oct 2017, 9:39 am

Yes Chisholm plays with a good physicality.

by Geordie Tue 03 Oct 2017, 9:42 am

Absolutely 7.5 I guess its just about getting the right balance of power, skill and workrate etc. Ideally I'd love to see another carrying option in the back row aside from just Billy. Robshaw doesn't do a huge amount there (he does everything else) and Haskell doesn't seem to do that as he once did.

However we should be able to put together a very good back row.

by Poorfour Tue 03 Oct 2017, 1:45 pm

propdavid_london wrote:James Chisholm if he can come back in last seasons form (following injury) will be in the mix I am sure - definitely brings that physical edge.

Chisholm's getting over lingering concussion symptoms but from the way Quins have spoken about him I think he's back in training. Physically he would be an excellent fit with Underhill and Billy. His pre-concussion form was excellent, so I think he has a shot at a call up if he picks up where he left off. Though to be honest I would be happy just to have Chris / Cliff / Chis turning out in the quarters for a few weeks.

by beshocked Tue 03 Oct 2017, 3:06 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
DaveM wrote:I was very pleasantly surprised by Mercer. Clearly hugely talented I think there were questions about his work-rate, but he was everywhere against Wasps.

What with Underhill, the Currys, Simmons, and Clifford the backrow is looking like an area of increasing strength.

As for Mallinder - he must be doing something right for Saints at the moment at 10. I can't see him as an international FB though - surely he doesn't have the pace/acceleration?

I agree...however wheres the bruising 6's coming through? The 6'5 brick walls. Young models of Haskell or Jerry Collins etc. Or are they not required in modern rugby now. Ie Is 6'2 all rounders more in call these days.

You are absolutely right. Not many bruisers in the backrow. I think it's because generally taller players are encouraged to become 2nd rowers, not backrowers.

You of course occasionally see 2nd rowers covering blindside but it's not the same thing.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Oct 2017, 3:14 pm

It's worth pointing out perception as well. Ie collins was 6 foot 2 and Clifford 6 foot 4.

by Geordie Tue 03 Oct 2017, 3:54 pm

Well you learn something everyday 7.5. I honestly thought Collins was bigger than that...and to be honest I actually didn't realise Clifford was 6'4. I thought it was the other way round - ie Collins 6'4 and Clifford 6'2.

by Scottrf Tue 03 Oct 2017, 3:55 pm

Clifford has a midgets face, probably why you think he's shorter.

by Geordie Tue 03 Oct 2017, 3:59 pm

by lostinwales Tue 03 Oct 2017, 5:07 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well you learn something everyday 7.5. I honestly thought Collins was bigger than that...and to be honest I actually didn't realise Clifford was 6'4. I thought it was the other way round - ie Collins 6'4 and Clifford 6'2.

I almost ran Collins over once. He didn't look that huge

by WELL-PAST-IT Tue 03 Oct 2017, 8:37 pm

lostinwales wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Well you learn something everyday 7.5. I honestly thought Collins was bigger than that...and to be honest I actually didn't realise Clifford was 6'4. I thought it was the other way round - ie Collins 6'4 and Clifford 6'2.

I almost ran Collins over once. He didn't look that huge

That would have been Tom Collins then, he is under 6', but having a fantastic season.

Lawes is another player I would not want to see in the AIs, he may have been off the bench in the Lions games against the ABs, but he was also playing in most of the mid -week games and has played every game this season for Saints. He looked battered when he came home from NZ, he is looking worse now, but still producing great performances.

by lostinwales Tue 03 Oct 2017, 10:05 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Well you learn something everyday 7.5. I honestly thought Collins was bigger than that...and to be honest I actually didn't realise Clifford was 6'4. I thought it was the other way round - ie Collins 6'4 and Clifford 6'2.

I almost ran Collins over once. He didn't look that huge

That would have been Tom Collins then, he is under 6', but having a fantastic season.

Lawes is another player I would not want to see in the AIs, he may have been off the bench in the Lions games against the ABs, but he was also playing in most of the mid -week games and has played every game this season for Saints. He looked battered when he came home from NZ, he is looking worse now, but still producing great performances.

No it was Jerry. No mistake with that haircut. It was when he was playing for the Ospreys and I was living in (and at that moment driving through) Mumbles.

Tom Collins would probably have been at school at the time

by **Rugby Fan** Wed 04 Oct 2017, 12:39 am

Kyle Sinckler, the Harlequins prop, will miss England’s autumn international series after receiving a seven-week ban for gouging Michael Paterson, the Northampton lock.

Sinckler pleaded guilty to the offence of making contact with the eye of Paterson at an independent disciplinary hearing in Bristol on Tuesday evening.

The three-man panel, chaired by Dan White concluded that Sinckler’s actions were intentional but even though the sanction carries a low-end entry point of 12 weeks, his sanction was reduced to an entry-point of seven because of a lack of injury.

That decision is likely to raise eyebrows given that Chris Ashton, the former Saracens wing, received a 10-week ban last year for making contact with the eye of Ulster centre Luke Marshall.

“The panel heard evidence from the player as to his actions,” said White. “They found that it was an intentional action but that due to the absence of injury it merited a low end entry point.

“The player has not got a clear record because of a suspension in 2015 and so the panel could not give full mitigation. The player will therefore be suspended for seven weeks and is free to play again on the 21 November 2017.”

Sinckler said he accepted the outcome of the hearing but insisted he would not deliberately gouge an opponent.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/10/03/kyle-sinckler-will-miss-englands-autumn-internationals-receiving/

by No 7&1/2 Wed 04 Oct 2017, 5:57 am

Just stupid and a complete lack of consistency.

by munkian Wed 04 Oct 2017, 7:41 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just stupid and a complete lack of consistency.

As in he should have got longer ?

His 'apology' was a joke too.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 04 Oct 2017, 7:58 am

As in it should have been longer to fit previous bans yes. WR really need to have an overall role in all disciplinary proceedings around the world.they don't stick their oar in enough.

by munkian Wed 04 Oct 2017, 8:01 am

The whole 'conduct during hearing' thing is bollix- hes hardly going to gouge the panel too is he ?

by No 7&1/2 Wed 04 Oct 2017, 8:05 am

I wasn't at the hearing so don't know.

by Geordie Wed 04 Oct 2017, 8:29 am

So effectively they're saying intent is not enough...you have to actually injure someones eyes before they put on a heavy ban!!

by Geordie Wed 04 Oct 2017, 8:35 am

So the question is who are the 3 TH's for the AI's.

Cole, Williams, Collier?

by No 7&1/2 Wed 04 Oct 2017, 8:53 am

Unless he feels someone like obano has impressed enough early in the season. You have Thomas coming back too. I'd go with the 3 you named.

by Scottrf Wed 04 Oct 2017, 9:16 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:So effectively they're saying intent is not enough...you have to actually injure someones eyes before they put on a heavy ban!!

Yeah that's a joke. Agree about conduct during hearing too. That should be a minimum to expect.

by Cumbrian Wed 04 Oct 2017, 11:08 am

No sympathy for Sinkler, he behaved like an idiot and the ban should be longer. He won't play for England again for a long while IMO.

Tighthead has gone from being a position of relative strength to being a bit bare. Cole rested, Sinkler banned, Brooks and Hill playing mince. Thomas isn't the strongest scrummager either.

by propdavid_london Wed 04 Oct 2017, 11:57 am

Sinkler will miss the Nov test window I am sure..think someone said he would be back for the final game - but wont have attended any of the camps - so its safe to say he wont get another shot at a test match until the 6N.
I feel that his impact is too good to ignore and EJ will have him in for the 6N training camps. That is, unless some other TH starts pulling up trees in Europe and Aviva Prem.

by Geordie Wed 04 Oct 2017, 12:13 pm

What are the EQ options without Cole and Sinkler?

Williams
Collier
Brookes
Hill
??

by Cumbrian Wed 04 Oct 2017, 12:20 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:What are the EQ options without Cole and Sinkler?

Williams
Collier
Brookes
Hill
??

Below them are Henry Thomas (Bath), Fraser Balmain (Gloucester), Jake Cooper-Wooley (Wasps) and then kids and good club players.

by Scottrf Wed 04 Oct 2017, 12:21 pm

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