Sean O'Brien on the Lions

by **Rugby Fan** Thu 21 Sep 2017, 9:53 am

First topic message reminder :

Although there might now be some headlines saying "O'Brien Blasts Lions Coaches", I don't think there's anything bitter or malicious about what he's saying. Off the Ball has audio here:

http://www.offtheball.com/Sean-OBrien-The-Lions-should-have-beaten-the-All-Blacks-comfortably-enough-new-zealand

He clearly has mixed feeling about how the tour turned out, and is trying identify where things might have gone better. His comments about over training before the first Test echo the criticism made about Graham Henry's tour in 2001.

“The first week, we definitely over-trained on the Thursday and maybe the coaches were panicking a little bit about getting the information into us. On the first week [of the first Test], we had a triple [session] day, [the] lads’ legs were heavy on the Thursday and we were playing the All Blacks on Saturday.

“We did nearly a similar thing in the last week. So maybe it’s more [from] a coaching point of view, in terms of taking lessons. Less is more sometimes on a tour like that, rather than trying to pick things up at the end of the week.

“There was probably no need for that but it’s just the way it was managed. We had said it, at the time, and they pulled back a bit. But it’s just about getting that fine balance between players and coaches and making sure the group is ready to rock.”

O'Brien says Rob Howley was unable to impose himself on the squad, and he thinks the backs were guided instead by Sexton and Farrell. If so, then that may be one factor behind Gatland's eventual decision to play both men together.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/09/20/lions-coaching-staff-blame-new-zealand-series-defeat-says-sean/

by Gwlad Sun 01 Oct 2017, 5:22 am

eirebilly wrote:To me the other lads ran excellent support lines without a doubt but you would expect that from top quality players in those situations. The ability to take on the AB's from deep and set up the try was just sublime from Williams so for me he gets the credit. Team try absolutely but the individual that set up the team try was, for me, the man that took the line and broke the field up.

fair enough there is no doubt in Wales that he is the class act at 15 in the NH.

I really hope at last that Gatland has got over Halfpenny and we will finally see Liam at 15 for Wales, especially since Biggar's kicking is becoming excellent.....with Evans and Giles on either wing ideally but that will never happen! Thankfully though I think we will have seen the last of Cuffbert.

by Taylorman Sun 01 Oct 2017, 7:12 am

eirebilly wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Even new coaches who inherit settled teams can take months or even years to turn them into champions. The Lions are a scratch selection and their time together is measured in days. Point 1... To suggest that a coach could have any material impact in a few days is disrespectful to all those other coaches who need entire seasons getting their players to adopt styles and methods. Hard work and practice take time and effort, things that cannot be short-circuited.

Point 2... O'Brien along with his team mates delivered the results despite the ineptitude of those supposedly directing them, so he has earned the right to be honest and tell the truth from the player's side. His honesty is refreshing and far from being disrespectful it is honourable that credit is apportioned where it's due and the fans are not deluded.

Point 1 I never said that the Lions coach had to re-coach players, I said that the Lions head coach had to assimilate players styles and known game plans to create a functioning unit. That is absolutely not disrespecting other coaches at all. I find that a rather poor response from you to be honest.

Point 2 Despite the ineptitude of those supposedly directing them? This is a totally ridiculous statement in fairness. Gatland is one of the worlds most successful coaches let alone one of the best Lions coaches in history yet he is inept? I fear that it is you that is deluded.

I understand your dislike for the Lions concept but you really need to take a long hard look at you're own bitterness and resentment towards the Lions prior to making such ridiculous statements.

Nice

by The Great Aukster Sun 01 Oct 2017, 7:20 am

eirebilly wrote:A coach coaches a team, is that such a difficult concept for you to understand Aukster? Gatland did not develop these players, nor did the respective International or club coaches of these players. What Gatland did, is get these players playing together as a unit by utilising their individual skills and known game plans from their clubs and countries. It worked...

A lot of the plays that are used are incorporated from other plays from clubs and countries and just drilled into them by the Lions coaches.

As for SOB's try for being heads up rugby and nothing to do with the coaching, correct but that sort of thing happens in just about every game. Its why these players are selected because they are the best individually and can play like this. I am not sure how much rugby you have seen through the years but I have seen a large number of try's scored like that. You cant coach that so no coach can claim credit for such try's.

Funny how you can state that Woodward was less of a coach than Gatland but that Geech and Henry were better Lions coaches when you simply do not consider the coaching role for the Lions important. You really have some extremely weird way of looking at things.

Again I suggest that you take you hatred of the Lions and your bitterness towards them and actually appreciate what rugby is.

Just as an edit, the SOB try actually came from a brilliant piece of individual counter attacking from Liam Williams. What a coach can claim credit for is getting the players into shape and drilling them to back up other players who make a break. All SOB did was support the play all the way to the end and cross the line, all credit should go to Williams for that try.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

Jonny Wilkinson said that SOB try was the way to beat the ABs:
"For me it’s about freeing guys up rather than giving them a tighter gameplan," Vitality ambassador Wilkinson told Press Association Sport.

The assertion is that none of the Lions' management team have time to do any coaching in the normal sense of the word. The role can't be compared to normal club or national team responsibilities because the parameters are totally different. Perhaps I've missed them but where are the testimonials from players hailing Gatland as the master tactician? Instead what we have is a report from the best player Richie McCaw came up against saying that the Lions were overtrained by panicked coaches.

Apparently there are stats somewhere to prove that O'Brien is lying, but they are slow at emerging. Opinions are fine but facts are better.

by Taylorman Sun 01 Oct 2017, 7:25 am

eirebilly wrote:To me the other lads ran excellent support lines without a doubt but you would expect that from top quality players in those situations. The ability to take on the AB's from deep and set up the try was just sublime from Williams so for me he gets the credit. Team try absolutely but the individual that set up the team try was, for me, the man that took the line and broke the field up.

Yes that may be so in that situation but probably only because its fairly unique with the Lions in AB tests. The ABs for example are prepared for and expect all their players to do that. Over time its become part of the DNA so when one player does it and the team scores its not uniquely attritutable to one player. The team owns the fact that where one will make the break, the rest must support it.

And this try reflected some of that. If it were just Williams going stuff this and doing something against the gameplan, it would more likely have broken down, the rest not ready for it...'by design'.

The fact that they were probably goes back to, and I agree with our earlier point, Gatlands wanting them to express their abilities on the field. Gatland had a huge impact on this series because unlike other Lions coaches he went with a single gameplan of stopping the ABs play for most of the series, but seems to have found time to instill enough confidence in his players to make that sort of play.

Auksters stand comes from a deep dislike of the concept and usually applies argument that supports it, where for many tours to NZ hes probably more correct, but in this case, Gatland, and the side, proved its possible to come together in short weeks and produce good enough rugby to nullify the ABs for nearly three hours.

by Taylorman Sun 01 Oct 2017, 7:31 am

The Great Aukster wrote:

Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

Jonny Wilkinson said that SOB try was the way to beat the ABs:
"For me it’s about freeing guys up rather than giving them a tighter gameplan," Vitality ambassador Wilkinson told Press Association Sport.

Interesting comment from Wilko, because when he played them he was never able to do that, and the ones he did win were won due to the boot, so it makes sense. He was on a lot of losing sides to the ABs and I think he realises that was the missing link.

by The Great Aukster Sun 01 Oct 2017, 7:57 am

Taylorman wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:

Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

Jonny Wilkinson said that SOB try was the way to beat the ABs:
"For me it’s about freeing guys up rather than giving them a tighter gameplan," Vitality ambassador Wilkinson told Press Association Sport.

Interesting comment from Wilko, because when he played them he was never able to do that, and the ones he did win were won due to the boot, so it makes sense. He was on a lot of losing sides to the ABs and I think he realises that was the missing link.

"he was never able to do that, and the ones he did win were won due to the boot" - do you mean he was never able to win, or do you mean he was never able to win except by the boot? Alternatively do you mean he was never able to free guys up because he had a tight gameplan?

by Taylorman Sun 01 Oct 2017, 2:40 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:

Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

Jonny Wilkinson said that SOB try was the way to beat the ABs:
"For me it’s about freeing guys up rather than giving them a tighter gameplan," Vitality ambassador Wilkinson told Press Association Sport.

Interesting comment from Wilko, because when he played them he was never able to do that, and the ones he did win were won due to the boot, so it makes sense. He was on a lot of losing sides to the ABs and I think he realises that was the missing link.
"he was never able to do that, and the ones he did win were won due to the boot" - do you mean he was never able to win, or do you mean he was never able to win except by the boot? Alternatively do you mean he was never able to free guys up because he had a tight gameplan?

England in Wilkos era never beat the ABs with tries like SOBs as sparked by Williams. They never possessed the skill or the confidence to run out anything like that.

Both Wilkos wins over the ABs were from less tries scored and more penalties or dropped goals kicked.

The other five, and the three Lions tests were just too terrible to mention.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 01 Oct 2017, 5:41 pm

Taylorman wrote:...England in Wilkos era never beat the ABs with tries like SOBs as sparked by Williams....

I think you know a fair amount about rugby, Taylorman, but it's plain as day you really don't know anything about the era of English rugby under Woodward. You've admitted before that you actually haven't watched many games from the period, and I can only urge you once more to go and look at the matches, particularly the period when no Southern Hemisphere side could beat them. It really won't take that long for your preconceptions about English rugby to be blown away.

by cascough Sun 01 Oct 2017, 9:03 pm

eirebilly wrote:To me the other lads ran excellent support lines without a doubt but you would expect that from top quality players in those situations. The ability to take on the AB's from deep and set up the try was just sublime from Williams so for me he gets the credit. Team try absolutely but the individual that set up the team try was, for me, the man that took the line and broke the field up.

I'm uneasy with giving the credit for a team try to an individual, especially one like this.

Once Williams has made the decision to go, his execution (step, outside break, offload) is perfect, but it's still not enough unless everyone else executes too. Both Daly and JD (JD in particular) take defenders out with good footwork and look to keep the ball alive and even SOB looks to step back inside instead of just trying to flop over the line.

I'm willing to put aside Daly, JD and SOB and say, yeah but Liam Williams started it, so his contribution is more important, but even then you miss something. Williams takes the decision to run (kudos to him for being brave?) and as I say his execution is perfect. He steps Read which was decent but hardly out of the ordinary, a full back stepping a forward as he jumps to charge down a kick has been seen plenty, right? He then sets off on his outside break. Williams execution is perfect but it's not enough. He wouldn't actually break the line were it not for Ben Te'o's excellent blocking on SBW. No question in my mind SBW scraggs him and all of a sudden we are in big danger of being turned over in front of our own posts. So is Liams William's decision/contribution only good because of the outcome? Or actually was it a careless decision that we got away with?

To be clear, I'm not trying to make out that Williams made a bad decision (I actually think he had little choice as Watson set him up somewhat), I'm just saying that the try doesn't happen without the other components, and that includes the first part.

by LordDowlais Tue 03 Oct 2017, 8:30 pm

I see Rory Best is disagreeing with how SOB has gone about it now. Rolling Eyes

by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Oct 2017, 9:41 pm

Yes he says you shouldn't single.coaches out either way before singling out borthwick for praise then overall agreeing that the lions had a blooming good squad which perhaps didn't meet potential (paraphrasing).

by **Rugby Fan** Tue 03 Oct 2017, 10:05 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes he says you shouldn't single.coaches out either way before singling out borthwick for praise then overall agreeing that the lions had a blooming good squad which perhaps didn't meet potential (paraphrasing).

O'Mahony was in the same podcast as O'Brien this week. He also singled out Borthwick but didn't want to be drawn on commenting on what O'Brien said about coaching and over-training. He said he was impressed by the attitude of the Saracens players, who he thought seemed a step ahead in how they approach the game.

by geoff999rugby Tue 03 Oct 2017, 10:06 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I see Rory Best is disagreeing with how SOB has gone about it now.

That is a very creative interpretation of what Best actually said.
Basically he didn't want to be drawn either way - he didn't agree or disagree with what SOB said

by LordDowlais Tue 03 Oct 2017, 10:15 pm

Are you sure geoff, because these quotes would say otherwise:-

Rory Best wrote:“They’re his feelings but I don’t think he should have singled out one coach,"

Rory Best wrote:"He didn’t single out anyone else one way or the other.

Rory Best wrote:“I would never disrespect New Zealand and say it should have been 3-0 but you look at the players that we brought and, with maybe more preparation or whatever, there was an opportunity,"

Rory Best wrote:"When you look at what New Zealand have done since, to say it should be 3-0 is a massive statement.”

They are just a few of the things Rory Best said that seems to suggest he did not agree with what SOB said.

by geoff999rugby Tue 03 Oct 2017, 10:26 pm

You have obviously seen a longer clip than I have - not on the short clip on the BBC at the moment

by LordDowlais Tue 03 Oct 2017, 10:52 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:You have obviously seen a longer clip than I have - not on the short clip on the BBC at the moment

Here you go:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/ireland-skipper-rory-best-says-13708178

by cascough Tue 03 Oct 2017, 10:55 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes he says you shouldn't single.coaches out either way before singling out borthwick for praise then overall agreeing that the lions had a blooming good squad which perhaps didn't meet potential (paraphrasing).
O'Mahony was in the same podcast as O'Brien this week. He also singled out Borthwick but didn't want to be drawn on commenting on what O'Brien said about coaching and over-training. He said he was impressed by the attitude of the Saracens players, who he thought seemed a step ahead in how they approach the game.

Which podcast was this?

Thanks.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Oct 2017, 11:00 pm

Best also said that this from sob was refreshing so again he's not really having a go.

by Scottrf Tue 03 Oct 2017, 11:03 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:You have obviously seen a longer clip than I have - not on the short clip on the BBC at the moment

Here you go:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/ireland-skipper-rory-best-says-13708178

Are you paid per click?

by BamBam Tue 03 Oct 2017, 11:10 pm

Suspicious amount of carpet advertisements every time i go on their website, would make a lot of sense

by **Rugby Fan** Wed 04 Oct 2017, 12:45 am

cascough wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes he says you shouldn't single.coaches out either way before singling out borthwick for praise then overall agreeing that the lions had a blooming good squad which perhaps didn't meet potential (paraphrasing).
O'Mahony was in the same podcast as O'Brien this week. He also singled out Borthwick but didn't want to be drawn on commenting on what O'Brien said about coaching and over-training. He said he was impressed by the attitude of the Saracens players, who he thought seemed a step ahead in how they approach the game.

Which podcast was this?

Thanks.

The Left Wing

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/lions-tour/the-left-wing-peter-omahony-looks-back-on-his-memorable-lions-tour-and-talks-munster-changes-36187804.html

by Guest Tue 17 Oct 2017, 9:09 am

Gatland is done

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11933799

by Gwlad Tue 17 Oct 2017, 10:44 am

Not surprised, the way he has been treated by fellow New Zealanders....says a lot about the place quite frankly.

by Guest Tue 17 Oct 2017, 10:52 am

You’re sooo bitter, lol

by Gwlad Tue 17 Oct 2017, 11:28 am

ebop wrote:You’re sooo bitter, lol

Many NZers would eat their own young, you're a fine example. No wonder he left.

by Guest Tue 17 Oct 2017, 5:26 pm

No. I think you’ll find Gatland left NZ to line his pockets. Just like the majority of other NZers and SH players and coaches that prop up British/Irish rugby. Despite NZ losing a lot of our players and coaches we still dominate. It seems the British/Irish trying desperately hard to compete by bringing in SH expertise is still not enough. It’s embarrassing though and it must really hurt your butt knowing it. One piddly RWC to show for England over the years and multiple failures across the board. Try not to cry yourself to sleep over it Wink

by Sgt_Pooly Tue 17 Oct 2017, 5:29 pm

I think you two need to get your own thread, or room etc etc.

by Guest Tue 17 Oct 2017, 5:37 pm

Yeah true. We’d probably call it the gwlad stalker thread where he can be a racist moron to his little hearts content.

by Taylorman Tue 17 Oct 2017, 5:46 pm

Gwlad wrote:Not surprised, the way he has been treated by fellow New Zealanders....says a lot about the place quite frankly.

Well all I see is SOBs nail in the coffin. Seems hes sick of getting BODs and SOBs complaining after the tours over about his coaching and or selections, and he didnt even lose a series!

Imagine what theyd have said if they lost!

by No 7&1/2 Tue 17 Oct 2017, 6:13 pm

Well my thanks to sob if this means we'll get a head coach who isn't attached to one of the countries making up the British and Irish Lions next time.

by hugehandoff Tue 17 Oct 2017, 7:27 pm

I think SOB should have kept his feedback in-house for a while longer. Gats tried his best but keeping Howley was a mistake. A win over the Aussies and a draw with NZ is a fantastic achievement. Well done and many thanks for the massive effort.

Someone else's turn now and we will all enjoy that debate!

by **RDW** Tue 17 Oct 2017, 7:45 pm

gwlad/ebop - can you please put each other on your foe lists or just ignore each other? I really don't care who started it - your bickering derails threads and there's an easy way to stop it.

by Taylorman Tue 17 Oct 2017, 7:51 pm

hugehandoff wrote:I think SOB should have kept his feedback in-house for a while longer. Gats tried his best but keeping Howley was a mistake. A win over the Aussies and a draw with NZ is a fantastic achievement. Well done and many thanks for the massive effort.

Someone else's turn now and we will all enjoy that debate!

Yes its not as if SOBs other coaches have done better vs NZ or Oz. He should be grateful. Gats will be glad to get home Id say.

Mind you, might be Gats slowly turning his sights on the AB job. Timing is good.

by munkian Tue 17 Oct 2017, 8:03 pm

Nice one squeaky Rolling Eyes

by eirebilly Tue 17 Oct 2017, 8:17 pm

Gatland has done an excellent job with Wales and the Lions, he really is a top class coach. That said, I think his coaching style is more suited to the NH style of rugby, just like Schmidt. I doubt he would fit in to the AB approach to rugby so not sure he will be the AB coach in the future. Vern Cotter is more the man for the AB's.

by rapidsnowman Tue 17 Oct 2017, 9:07 pm

Taylorman wrote:Gats will be glad to get home Id say.

BBC website wrote:Speaking on Monday, Gatland said: "I hated the tour. I did. I just hated the press and the negativity in New Zealand.

Sounds like he can't wait to get home!

by **RiscaGame** Tue 17 Oct 2017, 11:09 pm

munkian wrote:Nice one squeaky

Bit cowardly of him, not to reply to Gatland.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 29 Oct 2017, 6:06 pm

Howley says air cleared with O'Brien.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/10/28/rob-howley-acceptssean-obriens-apology-criticising-lions-coaching/

by Guest Sun 29 Oct 2017, 6:31 pm

Gatland up for 2021

Make a bit of extra coin

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11937988

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 29 Oct 2017, 6:49 pm

Gatland:

"My experience of a Lions tour is that there is no pressure on the players. You go out there and fail as a player and you have got the luxury of sauntering back to your club or your national team or whatever.

And yet, over the years, many players have seen their rugby careers hurt by a Lions tour. Mostly though injury, some by performance, and others by missed opportunities elsewhere.

by Guest Sun 29 Oct 2017, 7:41 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Gatland:
"My experience of a Lions tour is that there is no pressure on the players. You go out there and fail as a player and you have got the luxury of sauntering back to your club or your national team or whatever.

A dig at the SOBs of the world that can slag off a coach with zero repercussions

by Taylorman Mon 30 Oct 2017, 11:36 am

ebop wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Gatland:
"My experience of a Lions tour is that there is no pressure on the players. You go out there and fail as a player and you have got the luxury of sauntering back to your club or your national team or whatever.
A dig at the SOBs of the world that can slag off a coach with zero repercussions

Well at least the acrynom is apt thumbsup

by Pot Hale Mon 30 Oct 2017, 1:19 pm

Taylorman wrote:
ebop wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Gatland:
"My experience of a Lions tour is that there is no pressure on the players. You go out there and fail as a player and you have got the luxury of sauntering back to your club or your national team or whatever.
A dig at the SOBs of the world that can slag off a coach with zero repercussions

Well at least the acrynom is apt

Yep. On the pitch especially. Smile

by Pot Hale Tue 31 Oct 2017, 1:56 pm

It seems that Gatland is not quite done yet. He’s promoting his diary of the Lions tour and decided he’d have another crack at O’Brien.

Having said previously that he agreed with some of SOB’s comments about preparation and acknowledging that O’Brien had a very good tour, and knowing that O’Brien had apologised to Howley personally for his remarks, he then had this to say in a weekend print interview:

“My thing to Sean is, if he can look himself in the mirror and say 'I was the most professional person on tour, on and off the field, in New Zealand', in terms of the way he prepared himself, then I think his points would be more valid.”

Ouch.

Obviously, WG doesn’t think these kind of things should be kept to internal sessions during the tour. Himself and Howley do like to wait in the long grass.

by Gwlad Wed 01 Nov 2017, 2:03 am

Did he say this in the book? if not it is fair response at a time of his choosing to the treachery of an ungrateful player who will never be a Lion again

by Scottrf Wed 01 Nov 2017, 2:09 am

Treachery

So bitter.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed 01 Nov 2017, 2:37 am

Gatland sounds like a pretty insecure guy. Everyone else has moved on except him (and a few Welsh posters on here).

by marty2086 Wed 01 Nov 2017, 2:42 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Gatland sounds like a pretty insecure guy. Everyone else has moved on except him (and a few Welsh posters on here).

A bit like his coaching methods, he's probably been told he will never be AB coach so has to put himself back into the Lions frame

by Gwlad Wed 01 Nov 2017, 2:43 am

Scottrf wrote:Treachery So bitter.

Yes he is and so are you

by Scottrf Wed 01 Nov 2017, 2:45 am

Gwlad wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Treachery So bitter.

Yes he is and so are you

Na I don't really care, just think it's getting a bit playground.

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