Brexit

by **navyblueshorts** Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:51 pm

First topic message reminder :

Galted wrote:It will stop foreigners praying in our mosques.

by Duty281 Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:18 am

Luke wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Luke wrote:When what it actually needed was just someone to say this is what the EU does for you, this is what could happen if we left. And then let people make an informed decision.

And it's not going to end when /should we pull out. It's going to take years to negotiate new deals

1) There was plenty of that. Far too much of that, even.

2) Not necessarily. Could take months.

There was if you follow politics. There wasn't if you don't.

Doubtful with this government. We probably won't decide who we want to talk to till after the Brexit process ends. And let's not forget, we could be in a terrible position to start any negotiations.
If done properly (ie have a list know of who you want to talk to about what know), then yes your right. But I really doubt there is one.

Well, yes, if you follow politics. If you ignore politics you're not going to hear political arguments. The central basis of the Remain campaign was: Here is what the EU do for us, now imagine what terrible things will befall us if we were to leave.

Some bilateral trade deals only take a matter of months. Liam Fox has, apparently, been very busy negotiating trade deals in various far-flung places, including the US, Japan, India, Brazil and Indonesia, to name but a few.

by Duty281 Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:20 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Luke has it pretty much spot on. Also not thought about is the amount of EU funding for noble causes that will be lost. Also the loss of the use of the communication satellites Galileo has sent the UK into panic as tgey have no fall-back alternative in place.

I am ambivalent about the EU and can see its pros and cons but I am sure of this. If the UK voted for Brexit then it has to be full and complete. No trying to hang onto the best parts. No trying to stay in a customs union as it goes against the whole point of Brexit and be ready to accept hard borders in Ireland.

All 'EU funding' in this country is actually UK money recycled.

About £14 billion was given to the EU by the UK in 2015, around £4.5 billion of this was returned under the guise of 'EU funding', which is of course a total nonsense.

by Duty281 Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:23 am

lostinwales wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Luke has it pretty much spot on. Also not thought about is the amount of EU funding for noble causes that will be lost. Also the loss of the use of the communication satellites Galileo has sent the UK into panic as tgey have no fall-back alternative in place.

I am ambivalent about the EU and can see its pros and cons but I am sure of this. If the UK voted for Brexit then it has to be full and complete. No trying to hang onto the best parts. No trying to stay in a customs union as it goes against the whole point of Brexit and be ready to accept hard borders in Ireland.

What is the point of Brexit? I am still waiting to find out.

Greater democratic control. A supreme judicial system. Getting rid of the European Arrest Warrant. Ending free movement and having an equal system of immigration. Control of trading arrangements. Control of fishing waters. Save a bit of money.

by lostinwales Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:42 am

Duty281 wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Luke has it pretty much spot on. Also not thought about is the amount of EU funding for noble causes that will be lost. Also the loss of the use of the communication satellites Galileo has sent the UK into panic as tgey have no fall-back alternative in place.

I am ambivalent about the EU and can see its pros and cons but I am sure of this. If the UK voted for Brexit then it has to be full and complete. No trying to hang onto the best parts. No trying to stay in a customs union as it goes against the whole point of Brexit and be ready to accept hard borders in Ireland.

What is the point of Brexit? I am still waiting to find out.

Greater democratic control. A supreme judicial system. Getting rid of the European Arrest Warrant. Ending free movement and having an equal system of immigration. Control of trading arrangements. Control of fishing waters. Save a bit of money.

Before I go on a rambling rant I would like to thank you for posting this. It is rare to get someone to get past the standard 'you lost get over it' argument and it is worth saying that first. Anyway...

Democratic control -BS we don't lose any for being in and EU also Democratic despite the claims from the nutters.
Judicial system - what difference does that seriously make? How often have we had rulings imposed on us, and if they were how often where they, seriously, not in the best interests of the ordinary people?
EU arrest warrant - something you haven't told us about?
Free movement goes both ways and isn't actually a problem overall. There are areas where there are issues but its not like we have not used all the tools available for us to deal with them.
Control of trading arrangements. Easy to have control when you don't have any arrangements left. The EU isn't stopping its nations having trading deals.
Fishing waters. Was a big deal. Isn't any more as its is a very small part of the economy. It is also a part of the economy that depends very heavily on the EU - as the domestic market for the fish we catch in our own waters is very small. We don't like spider crab but the French do. Cod etc that we do comes from further afield.
Save a bit of money.... HA HA HA HA HA HA sorry but that is hilarious. We won't be sending money to the EU, except for the divorce bill (so we will for a few years) But then there is stuff like all the regulatory agencies that we share with the EU nations that we will have to recreate all on our own.

by CaledonianCraig Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:43 pm

Duty281 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Luke has it pretty much spot on. Also not thought about is the amount of EU funding for noble causes that will be lost. Also the loss of the use of the communication satellites Galileo has sent the UK into panic as tgey have no fall-back alternative in place.

I am ambivalent about the EU and can see its pros and cons but I am sure of this. If the UK voted for Brexit then it has to be full and complete. No trying to hang onto the best parts. No trying to stay in a customs union as it goes against the whole point of Brexit and be ready to accept hard borders in Ireland.

All 'EU funding' in this country is actually UK money recycled.

About £14 billion was given to the EU by the UK in 2015, around £4.5 billion of this was returned under the guise of 'EU funding', which is of course a total nonsense.

Fair enough but I wouldn't trust Westminster to re-allocate the money that formerly went to EU funded projects will bevspent in such ways. Also likelihood is that police co-operation with European police forces will become more fragmented, the loss of the use of Galileo communications satellite systems, of course the loss of any say on EU matters yet still accepting EU customs union on EU terms is just pure stupidity it really is. Why?

by **navyblueshorts** Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:52 pm

Duty281 wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote: Gove so wonderfully said 'We don't need experts' .

Ah, the classic misquote.

What was the correct quote then? That is the one that was widely circulated and arguably did far too much damage.

To be honest we are still stuck with the consequences, so that we have politicians telling the chiefs of industry how they should be doing their job

Yes, the false one is widely circulated by the criminally ignorant, like Navy, or just the purely devious.

The actual quote, minus the interruptions from the interviewer:

"I think that the people of this country have had enough of experts with organisations from acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong."

"...with organisations from acronyms..." ?? Probably me, but I have no idea what that means. Did you mean "...from organisations with acronyms..."??? Or was your quote verbatim? In which case Gove really is a plank.

Either way, Gove implied that people with far more expertise that the criminally ignorant (such as Duty) might not be in a better place to comment on aspects of Brexit than those with no clue i.e. Gove et al. No-one from those so-called experts would claim to be infallible, but somehow that's a problem where Gove et al are concerned.

by Samo Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:31 am

Dominic Raab has threatened the EU that the UK will not pay the £39bn ‘divorce bill’ if we dont get a trade deal.

Now, I know he hasnt been Brexit secretary for long and maybe doesnt quite know how this all works, but there is actually is a way we get a trade deal without spending £39bn. Its called Remain.

If you think we should waste £39bn to be in exactly the same spot or worse than we’re in in regards to trade (with only the EU mind, the RoW doesnt even come into this) then you’re beyond deluded.

I almost admire people like Duty for being able to stick to their principles, but this “Brexit at any cost” attitude is just a religion now. A dangerous one at that.

by Duty281 Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:39 pm

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0962629817301300

Curse the rain!

by Duty281 Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:50 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Luke has it pretty much spot on. Also not thought about is the amount of EU funding for noble causes that will be lost. Also the loss of the use of the communication satellites Galileo has sent the UK into panic as tgey have no fall-back alternative in place.

I am ambivalent about the EU and can see its pros and cons but I am sure of this. If the UK voted for Brexit then it has to be full and complete. No trying to hang onto the best parts. No trying to stay in a customs union as it goes against the whole point of Brexit and be ready to accept hard borders in Ireland.

What is the point of Brexit? I am still waiting to find out.

Greater democratic control. A supreme judicial system. Getting rid of the European Arrest Warrant. Ending free movement and having an equal system of immigration. Control of trading arrangements. Control of fishing waters. Save a bit of money.

Before I go on a rambling rant I would like to thank you for posting this. It is rare to get someone to get past the standard 'you lost get over it' argument and it is worth saying that first. Anyway...

Democratic control -BS we don't lose any for being in and EU also Democratic despite the claims from the nutters.
Judicial system - what difference does that seriously make? How often have we had rulings imposed on us, and if they were how often where they, seriously, not in the best interests of the ordinary people?
EU arrest warrant - something you haven't told us about?
Free movement goes both ways and isn't actually a problem overall. There are areas where there are issues but its not like we have not used all the tools available for us to deal with them.
Control of trading arrangements. Easy to have control when you don't have any arrangements left. The EU isn't stopping its nations having trading deals.
Fishing waters. Was a big deal. Isn't any more as its is a very small part of the economy. It is also a part of the economy that depends very heavily on the EU - as the domestic market for the fish we catch in our own waters is very small. We don't like spider crab but the French do. Cod etc that we do comes from further afield.
Save a bit of money.... HA HA HA HA HA HA sorry but that is hilarious. We won't be sending money to the EU, except for the divorce bill (so we will for a few years) But then there is stuff like all the regulatory agencies that we share with the EU nations that we will have to recreate all on our own.

Just a few points:

Democratic control - Of course we lose democratic control from being in the EU. At least 13% of our laws are made in the EU, with estimates from the House of Commons Library going as high as 50%. Laws made by unelected Commissioners that our elected MPs have no power to overturn (ECA 1972 and Factortame). Leaving the EU ensures that the House of Commons, and its democratically elected figures, will be chiefly responsible for law-making.

EU Arrest Warrant - Read the case of Andrew Symeou. Locked up in a hellish and violent Greek jail for a year without facing trial, all because of the European Arrest Warrant.

Free movement - Terrible for developing nations, such as Lithuania, who lose large swathes of their adult population who are eager to earn more in Western Europe. Terrible for countries such as ours, with wage compression and the knock-on effect of tightened restrictions on potential non-EU migrants (who are often skilled and turned away).

Control of trading arrangements - The UK is not an active member of the WTO because of EU membership. The UK cannot sign trade deals on its own whilst EU members.

Money - Save £8.5 billion a year. Shouldn't, of course, be giving the EU a 'divorce bill' as there's no legal standing for it. We're remaining in many regulatory bodies post-Brexit.

by **JuliusHMarx** Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:09 am

EU laws are not made by unelected Commissioners. They are only proposed by them.

I can't be bothered to read the rest in case it turns out to be similarly inaccurate.

I'm not sure if you spin the inaccuracies to get others to believe them, or actually believe them yourself.

by Samo Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:28 am

Duty281 wrote:

Just a few points:

Democratic control - Of course we lose democratic control from being in the EU. At least 13% of our laws are made in the EU, with estimates from the House of Commons Library going as high as 50%. Laws made by unelected Commissioners that our elected MPs have no power to overturn (ECA 1972 and Factortame). Leaving the EU ensures that the House of Commons, and its democratically elected figures, will be chiefly responsible for law-making.

EU Arrest Warrant - Read the case of Andrew Symeou. Locked up in a hellish and violent Greek jail for a year without facing trial, all because of the European Arrest Warrant.

Free movement - Terrible for developing nations, such as Lithuania, who lose large swathes of their adult population who are eager to earn more in Western Europe. Terrible for countries such as ours, with wage compression and the knock-on effect of tightened restrictions on potential non-EU migrants (who are often skilled and turned away).

Control of trading arrangements - The UK is not an active member of the WTO because of EU membership. The UK cannot sign trade deals on its own whilst EU members.

Money - Save £8.5 billion a year. Shouldn't, of course, be giving the EU a 'divorce bill' as there's no legal standing for it. We're remaining in many regulatory bodies post-Brexit.

Theres so much wrong here is actually impressive.

Democratic control - if you think the EU is undemocratic you have no idea how it works. I’ll happily explain it to you if you want. Cliffnotea version: the UK was on the ‘winning side’ in 95% of votes, abstained on 3% and lost 2%. That 2% equates to roughly 50 votes. If you’d like to break down which ones you’re unhappy with I’d love to hear them. The European Arrest Warrant doesnt count, I’ll knock that one down just now, save you the bother.

The European Arrest Warrant. The case of Andrew Symeou you cited is a bad case, but its an extraordinary one and actually shows the EAW working as intended. It seems your main gripe should be with the Greek judicial system rather than the EU, but you trot this out because it seems to be the only tangible reason you have to back brexit. Also no mention of Julian Assange - or should he not be extradited to Sweden to face his charges? Also no mention of the 63 child sex offenders, 27 rapists and 44 murderers who were extradited to and charged in the UK who otherwise would have likely got away with it.

Free movement. If we leave with a no deal Brexit then freedom of movement ends. This also means thats the 1.2million odd Expats living in Spain, France etc automatically lose the right to live in their own homes. It also means any Brits who work on the continent automatically lose that right, and so do the EU workwrs we have in Britain. Losing FoM at this stage would be a buearocratic nightmare.

Controlled trading arrangments. The UK currently has 24 trade deals in place with countries outside the EU on WTO terms. Including but not limited to China, Australia, New Zealand and The US. I’ll give you a bonus point if you can name the country we sell most of our arms to. Heres a hint: its not a country in the EU

Money. Even if Farages utopic ‘norway model’ were feasible, we would still be around £40bn a year worse off. Add on the £8.5bn you quote as a saving per year and we’re still £31.5bn in the whole. And thats the best case scenario. A no deal brexit - trading on WTO rules that you seem to love so much - leaves us £80bn in the hole. These are the governments own findings. There is no brexit deal that leaves us in a better position than we have now.

by **Pr4wn** Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:15 am

Duty281 wrote:

Free movement - Terrible for developing nations, such as Lithuania, who lose large swathes of their adult population who are eager to earn more in Western Europe.

F-ing LOL. As if you or any other leavers give a monkeys about Lithuania. picard

by **Hero** Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:24 am

Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:

Free movement - Terrible for developing nations, such as Lithuania, who lose large swathes of their adult population who are eager to earn more in Western Europe.

F-ing LOL. As if you or any other leavers give a monkeys about Lithuania.

Didn't you see all the Brexiteers marching for more immigrants from countries outside the EU being allowed into the UK?

by Duty281 Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:31 am

Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:

Free movement - Terrible for developing nations, such as Lithuania, who lose large swathes of their adult population who are eager to earn more in Western Europe.

F-ing LOL. As if you or any other leavers give a monkeys about Lithuania.

Well, I do, can't speak on behalf of other Leavers, of course.

by Duty281 Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:33 am

Hero wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:

Free movement - Terrible for developing nations, such as Lithuania, who lose large swathes of their adult population who are eager to earn more in Western Europe.

F-ing LOL. As if you or any other leavers give a monkeys about Lithuania.

Didn't you see all the Brexiteers marching for more immigrants from countries outside the EU being allowed into the UK?

Well, I've long argued on here, and elsewhere, that the skills cap on non-EU migrants should be loosened.

by Duty281 Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:37 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:EU laws are not made by unelected Commissioners. They are only proposed by them.

I can't be bothered to read the rest in case it turns out to be similarly inaccurate.

I'm not sure if you spin the inaccuracies to get others to believe them, or actually believe them yourself.

Indeed, thank you for pointing out my error! Mustn't type in such a rush!

The main point being that the wholly democratically-elected chamber of the EU cannot propose legislation. The unelected part is responsible for the 'right of initiative'.

by **Pr4wn** Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:00 pm

....But the democratically elected chamber are the ones who actually vote in the legislation, making it democratic.

Any more backtracks?

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:01 pm

EU have turned down May's Custom's union proposal.

Either in the Custom's Union or No deal it seems..

If we stay in....Brexiteers will think they are being sold out..

Trouble ahead..

by Duty281 Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:29 am

YouGov poll today has Remain 52% and Leave 48%.

Exactly the same as the final YouGov poll two years and a month ago.

by **JuliusHMarx** Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:41 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Trouble ahead..

Exactly the same as two years ago and a month ago.

by **Hero** Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:13 am

Army on stand by to deliver food in event of no deal on Brexit.

But we got our blue passports and our borders back so all good.

by Samo Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:27 am

I dont know why we're stockpiling food, what about all the fish we've got control of now?

by Luke Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:12 am

Support growing for a 2nd referendum. With the questions being, back the governments plan. No deal or stay in.
Can't see it happening, but if it did think it would be even closer, and even more derisive.

by Samo Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:45 am

Liam Fox now saying that a No-Deal is almost inevitable, despite saying it would be the easiest deal in the world.

Blue passports though eh?

by SecretFly Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:57 am

Samo wrote:I dont know why we're stockpiling food, what about all the fish we've got control of now?

Bob Geldof is hopeful that his new charity is capable of sucking all the salt out of the seas around the UK to kill off all the fish in protest at Brexit. So it's unlikely you'll have even them as a negotiating leverage.

I think he may be going a bit too far with the Thames experiment but I'll still be interested to see how a larger test site will work out for him.

by Samo Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:37 am

Analysis conducted by a joint venture from Best for Britain and Hope not Hate show that over 100 westminster constituencies that voted Leave in the EU referendum now have swung to remain. The polling now shows a 341-288 Remain majority with 3 split constituencies. Compared to a 209-403 split at the time of the referendum.

That sound you hear is the sound of the penny dropping that people are starting to realise they were conned.

by Duty281 Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:42 am

Shock horror! A study commissioned by two groups that are against Brexit finds a trend against Brexit! Next you'll be telling me something even more shocking, like the IEA supports free markets.

by CaledonianCraig Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:04 am

All opinion polls and speaking to people and listening to media all suggest a big change in opinion over Brexit. There is no way that can be denied.

by Duty281 Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:16 am

Of course that can be denied, because it's obviously untrue when looking at the evidence.

As I pointed out last week, YouGov released a poll saying Remain 52-48 Leave, exactly the same as two years ago. Those that think it is wrong to leave the EU are, according to Yougov, currently at 45%, exactly the same as November 2016. A 'Number Cruncher Politics' poll, a few months ago, showed that, if the UK left the EU, only 31% would vote for the UK to rejoin (47% against). At the 2017 GE, 85% of the votes went to parties who pledged to honour the Brexit vote. The pro-EU party, the Lib Dems, are still struggling to make headway in the polls (UKIP look like overtaking them in the near-future).

There has been no evidential trend towards staying in the EU.

by CaledonianCraig Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:21 am

So tell me Duty are you excited about Brexit and perfectly pleased with what Brexit will bring and the direction the discussions are heading??

by Duty281 Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:29 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:So tell me Duty are you excited about Brexit and perfectly pleased with what Brexit will bring and the direction the discussions are heading??

Excited about Brexit? Absolutely.

Perfectly pleased with what Brexit will bring? I'm perfectly pleased with what it *should* bring. However, with a pro-EU party in charge, we will most probably get a watered-down version (the made-up term 'soft Brexit, invented after the vote, covers this). This means, of course, the battle will continue for some time - the 23rd June 2016 vote was merely the end of the beginning.

Direction of discussions? A meaningless charade.

by CaledonianCraig Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:42 am

Well it is a Brexit discussion thread is it not? To discuss all opinions/thoughts on it.

As I have said before I am ambivalent to the whole Brexit issue but one thing I am sure about is that exit of the EU is pointless if you intend to remain within a single market or customs union as May wants. Totally ludicrous. That way you remained tied to EU deals and with no say on EU matters whatsoever. It is akin to being a shareholder at a football club with influence and giving it all up but still turning up to support the club but can have no influence in its running.

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:46 am

Drop in the pound....Companies laying people off to compensate for the price of imports....Companies moving abroad...Higher taxes....Less investment in our Schools and Hospitals...More Homeless people....Parents skipping meals to feed kids....Teachers paying for books and equipment...

Brexit will be a real blast
.

by Duty281 Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:49 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Well it is a Brexit discussion thread is it not? To discuss all opinions/thoughts on it.

As I have said before I am ambivalent to the whole Brexit issue but one thing I am sure about is that exit of the EU is pointless if you intend to remain within a single market or customs union as May wants. Totally ludicrous. That way you remained tied to EU deals and with no say on EU matters whatsoever. It is akin to being a shareholder at a football club with influence and giving it all up but still turning up to support the club but can have no influence in its running.

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought by 'discussions' you were referring to the negotiations.

I agree with you on the second paragraph.

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:41 am

He won't be ambivalent to Brexit in a couple of years time.

by CaledonianCraig Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:42 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He won't be ambivalent to Brexit in a couple of years time.

Perhaps true. Time will tell.

by Duty281 Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:46 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Drop in the pound....Companies laying people off to compensate for the price of imports....Companies moving abroad...Higher taxes....Less investment in our Schools and Hospitals...More Homeless people....Parents skipping meals to feed kids....Teachers paying for books and equipment...

Brexit will be a real blast
.

The vast majority of these, of course, have nothing to do with Brexit or the vote to leave.

by Samo Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:28 am

Duty281 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Drop in the pound....Companies laying people off to compensate for the price of imports....Companies moving abroad...Higher taxes....Less investment in our Schools and Hospitals...More Homeless people....Parents skipping meals to feed kids....Teachers paying for books and equipment...

Brexit will be a real blast
.

The vast majority of these, of course, have nothing to do with Brexit or the vote to leave.

No, but leaving will certainly make them all worse. Still havent heard a tangible benefit of brexit btw.

by CaledonianCraig Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:40 am

Samo wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Drop in the pound....Companies laying people off to compensate for the price of imports....Companies moving abroad...Higher taxes....Less investment in our Schools and Hospitals...More Homeless people....Parents skipping meals to feed kids....Teachers paying for books and equipment...

Brexit will be a real blast
.

The vast majority of these, of course, have nothing to do with Brexit or the vote to leave.

No, but leaving will certainly make them all worse. Still havent heard a tangible benefit of brexit btw.

The ability to strike your own customs deals with other countries around the world. Oh but wait that will be flung out the window if May has her way with this singles market/customs union idea. Rolling Eyes

The ability to stop too many immigrants into the UK. However, do believe the government said ages ago that nothing will change on that front.

An ability to do deals with Europe will be out the window if May has her way too and so the EU will call all of the shots on things the UK used to have a say on.

by Samo Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:59 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Samo wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Drop in the pound....Companies laying people off to compensate for the price of imports....Companies moving abroad...Higher taxes....Less investment in our Schools and Hospitals...More Homeless people....Parents skipping meals to feed kids....Teachers paying for books and equipment...

Brexit will be a real blast
.

The vast majority of these, of course, have nothing to do with Brexit or the vote to leave.

No, but leaving will certainly make them all worse. Still havent heard a tangible benefit of brexit btw.

The ability to strike your own customs deals with other countries around the world. Oh but wait that will be flung out the window if May has her way with this singles market/customs union idea.

The ability to stop too many immigrants into the UK. However, do believe the government said ages ago that nothing will change on that front.

An ability to do deals with Europe will be out the window if May has her way too and so the EU will call all of the shots on thinks the UK used to have a say on.

Not to mention we get to trade on WTO terms. Much better than the unelected, undemocratic EU. I just cant for the life of me find out who runs the WTO and when we voted them in, or who my local WTO representative is.

by Duty281 Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:25 am

Samo wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Drop in the pound....Companies laying people off to compensate for the price of imports....Companies moving abroad...Higher taxes....Less investment in our Schools and Hospitals...More Homeless people....Parents skipping meals to feed kids....Teachers paying for books and equipment...

Brexit will be a real blast
.

The vast majority of these, of course, have nothing to do with Brexit or the vote to leave.

No, but leaving will certainly make them all worse. Still havent heard a tangible benefit of brexit btw.

Certainly won't. Benefits of Brexit have been posted numerous times in this thread and elsewhere.

by Duty281 Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:35 am

Samo wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
Samo wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Drop in the pound....Companies laying people off to compensate for the price of imports....Companies moving abroad...Higher taxes....Less investment in our Schools and Hospitals...More Homeless people....Parents skipping meals to feed kids....Teachers paying for books and equipment...

Brexit will be a real blast
.

The vast majority of these, of course, have nothing to do with Brexit or the vote to leave.

No, but leaving will certainly make them all worse. Still havent heard a tangible benefit of brexit btw.

The ability to strike your own customs deals with other countries around the world. Oh but wait that will be flung out the window if May has her way with this singles market/customs union idea.

The ability to stop too many immigrants into the UK. However, do believe the government said ages ago that nothing will change on that front.

An ability to do deals with Europe will be out the window if May has her way too and so the EU will call all of the shots on thinks the UK used to have a say on.

Not to mention we get to trade on WTO terms. Much better than the unelected, undemocratic EU. I just cant for the life of me find out who runs the WTO and when we voted them in, or who my local WTO representative is.

Ah, yes, this is the latest, highly ignorant, buzz thing going around on social media - comparing the EU to the WTO. Even when they're not remotely comparable.

The WTO is merely a trade forum where elected governments discuss trade policy with other nations. It is not a body that constantly legislates and makes up to 65% of our laws, or has supremacy of law, unlike the EU. Your 'local WTO representative' will be the government that is voted in during UK General Elections. The WTO has a really great website if you want to learn more.

And it's not guaranteed, yet, that the UK will be trading with the EU on WTO terms.

by Samo Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:54 am

Duty281 wrote:
Samo wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
Samo wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Drop in the pound....Companies laying people off to compensate for the price of imports....Companies moving abroad...Higher taxes....Less investment in our Schools and Hospitals...More Homeless people....Parents skipping meals to feed kids....Teachers paying for books and equipment...

Brexit will be a real blast
.

The vast majority of these, of course, have nothing to do with Brexit or the vote to leave.

No, but leaving will certainly make them all worse. Still havent heard a tangible benefit of brexit btw.

The ability to strike your own customs deals with other countries around the world. Oh but wait that will be flung out the window if May has her way with this singles market/customs union idea.

The ability to stop too many immigrants into the UK. However, do believe the government said ages ago that nothing will change on that front.

An ability to do deals with Europe will be out the window if May has her way too and so the EU will call all of the shots on thinks the UK used to have a say on.

Not to mention we get to trade on WTO terms. Much better than the unelected, undemocratic EU. I just cant for the life of me find out who runs the WTO and when we voted them in, or who my local WTO representative is.

Ah, yes, this is the latest, highly ignorant, buzz thing going around on social media - comparing the EU to the WTO. Even when they're not remotely comparable.

The WTO is merely a trade forum where elected governments discuss trade policy with other nations. It is not a body that constantly legislates and makes up to 65% of our laws, or has supremacy of law, unlike the EU. Your 'local WTO representative' will be the government that is voted in during UK General Elections. The WTO has a really great website if you want to learn more.

And it's not guaranteed, yet, that the UK will be trading with the EU on WTO terms.

We've been through this. The EU doesnt make up 65% of our laws. We have power of Veto so it doesnt have supremacy of law. And aside for the EWA (which is pushing it at the best of times) you havent named any other laws the EU have forced on us you're unhappy with, or mentioned any laws you're looking forward to being able to implement once we leave.

And Yes, I remember you're little list of 'Benefits of leaving' which was actually more 'Negatives of staying'. I also remember explaining point by point why it was utter nonsense. I also recall you saying it was 13% of our laws are made in Brussels "with estimates from the House of Commons Library going as high as 50%." Actual quote. So which is it? 13%, 50% or the 65% you've just now quoted? Atleast be consistent in your BS.

by SecretFly Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:41 pm

If the WTO has its discussions and decides a course of action on a topic...the agreements then slide down the scale to legislation passed by Individual National governments to help the process of effecting the agreements emerging from WTO discussions.

There is a clear link up from WTO 'discussions' to legislation at National levels - or else the WTO has no reason for being. It has real teeth in legislative terms where Governments get to decide long range government policy far away from their own distinct electorates.

So a close enough model to the Brussels EU idea of collective decisions 'for the good of all'. Let's not talk ourselves into a semantics bog land - Oh, we're already a few years into it already. Whistle

by Samo Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:48 pm

US ambassador to London Woody Johnson has urged May to abandon the EU and join the US in sanctions against Iran. He also explicitly warns UK businesses to stop trading with Iran or face serious consequences in regards to trading with the US.

Sovereignty? Poopie more like. We cant even follow our own foreign policy without foreign interference. We’re now a 3rd division cuck to Trump and Putins new world order. Good job.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:39 am

I see 40% in the latest poll just want Brexit to be over with whether it's deal or No deal..

Must admit I have sympathy with them..

it is frustrating..

by SecretFly Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:40 pm

Yes... it's had it's day. The media have done their absolute best to screw every last morsel of public interest out of the main topic and its hundreds of sub headings.

It's had its day. The century must get on with other things now. Life truly will go on and the UK truly will not fall apart on leaving the EU. Chicken Licken is a fairytale character not a Political Movement..... or have I gotten that the wrong way round???

Time for the world to call a halt to Brexit nonsense and the OH-So-Knowingly-Theatrical build up deadlines. Just Leave or Stay but enough of the endless chatter.

by Duty281 Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:56 pm

Duty281 wrote:Of course that can be denied, because it's obviously untrue when looking at the evidence.

As I pointed out last week, YouGov released a poll saying Remain 52-48 Leave, exactly the same as two years ago. Those that think it is wrong to leave the EU are, according to Yougov, currently at 45%, exactly the same as November 2016. A 'Number Cruncher Politics' poll, a few months ago, showed that, if the UK left the EU, only 31% would vote for the UK to rejoin (47% against). At the 2017 GE, 85% of the votes went to parties who pledged to honour the Brexit vote. The pro-EU party, the Lib Dems, are still struggling to make headway in the polls (UKIP look like overtaking them in the near-future).

There has been no evidential trend towards staying in the EU.

And today we see a poll from Deltapoll:

11% of Leavers have changed their mind. 15% of Remainers have changed their mind. 47% think we should leave next March, 28% do not.

Still not seeing a trend towards Remain as exit day looms ever closer.

by Luke Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:01 pm

To be honest. I don't think you will see a trend till after we leave. And we have a final deal/no deal, and how the other trade talks goes.
Which is obviously to late.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:50 am

You will see a trend when Prices....Unemployment...Homelessness go up and Companies start leaving.

Brexit is....was..and always will be a bad idea..

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