Samoa broke

First topic message reminder :

Autumn Tests: Samoa rugby is bankrupt, says country's prime minster - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/41915435

Interesting that this has now come.to head.just before the AIs. Looks as if it's slightly like blackmail to the unions involved with games pending. More money or no game. Can or should the unions really be going round wr at all puts them in a bad area when it doesn't seem that clear what the dispute with samoa and wr actually is.

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

They should put together a joint PI touring team called the Southern Stars made up of Samoa, Fiji, Tonga and NZ Maori.

How does that help? Samoa, Fiji and Tonga are struggling to finance the teams they have, how would having to help fund another team help unless the NZRU fund it and they are always crying poverty as well

Yes and I love it how theres an assumption that chucking all these Islands together as one team are going to all live harmoniously together as one side. Particularly coming from the anti Lions brigade.

How bout we chuck a team from Georgia, Russia, Serbia and France together. Theyre all from the same area arent they?

marty2086 wrote:Why should WR finance it though?

Should send England to Apia in June for 3 tests

marty2086 wrote:How is it in their interests?

Because they are the ones banging the drum about spreading the game. OK why would it not be in their interests to help Samoa ?

marty2086 wrote:They are made up of parts which have a value

Are you insinuating that the Samoan RFU would dismantle the stadium and facilities and sell off the copper in the walls, steel off the roof ? Come on.

Lorddowlais is right though. If you don't know how the money is spent.....

If you knew the money was going to be spent well, you could make a good case for handing over the money.

It's also about trusting the person/organisation you give that money to and who can you trust?

To be honest this problem about handing over money to someone isn't just relevant to rugby.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:How is it in their interests?

Because they are the ones banging the drum about spreading the game. OK why would it not be in their interests to help Samoa ?

It's already the biggest sport in Samoa so how do you spread the game to a country where it's already the dominant game?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:They are made up of parts which have a value

Are you insinuating that the Samoan RFU would dismantle the stadium and facilities and sell off the copper in the walls, steel off the roof ? Come on.

I'm saying people accused of stealing and being corrupt may steal and act like they are corrupt and would more than likely find a different way to fill their pockets at the expense of the game and the Samoan system

If you leave the corrupt in place, they will still do dodgy things

marty2086 wrote:It's already the biggest sport in Samoa so how do you spread the game to a country where it's already the dominant game?

Because we do not want to lose it, that's why. Imagine a world were there are no more fixtures for Samoa, what would that do for the world cups ?

marty2086 wrote:I'm saying people accused of stealing and being corrupt may steal and act like they are corrupt and would more than likely find a different way to fill their pockets at the expense of the game and the Samoan system

But that has nothing to do with world rugby upgrading their facilities. Rather than just handing the money over, and a corrupt system claiming they spent £500k on a lick of paint and a few toilet seats, then at least WR can make sure they are getting bang for their buck. They could oversee it all, and make sure the money is going into the facilities, and not corrupt pockets.

Taylorman wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

They should put together a joint PI touring team called the Southern Stars made up of Samoa, Fiji, Tonga and NZ Maori.

How does that help? Samoa, Fiji and Tonga are struggling to finance the teams they have, how would having to help fund another team help unless the NZRU fund it and they are always crying poverty as well

Yes and I love it how theres an assumption that chucking all these Islands together as one team are going to all live harmoniously together as one side. Particularly coming from the anti Lions brigade.

How bout we chuck a team from Georgia, Russia, Serbia and France together. Theyre all from the same area arent they?

Not to mention the fact that Fiji rugby is thriving in all forms of the game. Their first professional 15s team got 10,000 when they played their first game in the ANZ stadium in the NRC. They are really pushing for teams in both the NRL and super rugby now.
Tonga are also performing very well but Havent managed to get a game against a tier 1 nation this November which is a shame.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:It's already the biggest sport in Samoa so how do you spread the game to a country where it's already the dominant game?

Because we do not want to lose it, that's why. Imagine a world were there are no more fixtures for Samoa, what would that do for the world cups ?

marty2086 wrote:I'm saying people accused of stealing and being corrupt may steal and act like they are corrupt and would more than likely find a different way to fill their pockets at the expense of the game and the Samoan system

But that has nothing to do with world rugby upgrading their facilities. Rather than just handing the money over, and a corrupt system claiming they spent £500k on a lick of paint and a few toilet seats, then at least WR can make sure they are getting bang for their buck. They could oversee it all, and make sure the money is going into the facilities, and not corrupt pockets.

It's more likely that all the contractors in Samoa are suddenly charging inflated prices with suspicious links to individuals on the Samoa Rugby Board (as was the case in 2011). Incidentally, World Rugby are already aware of corruption and in the past have frozen funding while certain things are investigated (which they did to Samoa in 2014 and Tonga in 2016). The corruption in Samoa is by far the number one problem here. To me, to vilify World Rugby is uninformed and to vilify individual unions is ridiculous. Ultimately, it's going to come down to how badly World Rugby want to stick with them and pull them through, or perhaps they will just let them sort themselves out and if nothing changes, die.

It's really sad for the players and fans of Samoa, but on the flip side, I've no doubt that there is a struggling, yet well run Union somewhere with equally proud fans who could really benefit from the millions World Rugby give to Samoa.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:It's already the biggest sport in Samoa so how do you spread the game to a country where it's already the dominant game?

Because we do not want to lose it, that's why. Imagine a world were there are no more fixtures for Samoa, what would that do for the world cups ?

marty2086 wrote:I'm saying people accused of stealing and being corrupt may steal and act like they are corrupt and would more than likely find a different way to fill their pockets at the expense of the game and the Samoan system

But that has nothing to do with world rugby upgrading their facilities. Rather than just handing the money over, and a corrupt system claiming they spent £500k on a lick of paint and a few toilet seats, then at least WR can make sure they are getting bang for their buck. They could oversee it all, and make sure the money is going into the facilities, and not corrupt pockets.

And then hand over control to the corrupt?

Makes sense

cascough wrote:It's really sad for the players and fans of Samoa, but on the flip side, I've no doubt that there is a struggling, yet well run Union somewhere with equally proud fans who could really benefit from the millions World Rugby give to Samoa.

Madagascar or Sri Lanka being two prime situations who you could speak of.

I just think it would be a crying shame to lose a historically steeped nation like Samoa to the world of rugby.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:It's already the biggest sport in Samoa so how do you spread the game to a country where it's already the dominant game?

Because we do not want to lose it, that's why. Imagine a world were there are no more fixtures for Samoa, what would that do for the world cups ?

marty2086 wrote:I'm saying people accused of stealing and being corrupt may steal and act like they are corrupt and would more than likely find a different way to fill their pockets at the expense of the game and the Samoan system

But that has nothing to do with world rugby upgrading their facilities. Rather than just handing the money over, and a corrupt system claiming they spent £500k on a lick of paint and a few toilet seats, then at least WR can make sure they are getting bang for their buck. They could oversee it all, and make sure the money is going into the facilities, and not corrupt pockets.

And then hand over control to the corrupt?

Makes sense

marty, sometimes I think you just come on here to disagree with me.

OK, so what would you suggest ?

LordDowlais wrote:

cascough wrote:It's really sad for the players and fans of Samoa, but on the flip side, I've no doubt that there is a struggling, yet well run Union somewhere with equally proud fans who could really benefit from the millions World Rugby give to Samoa.

Madagascar or Sri Lanka being two prime situations who you could speak of.

I just think it would be a crying shame to lose a historically steeped nation like Samoa to the world of rugby.

It would be a great shame. But you can't keep throwing millions at a corrupt system because of romanticism.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:It's already the biggest sport in Samoa so how do you spread the game to a country where it's already the dominant game?

Because we do not want to lose it, that's why. Imagine a world were there are no more fixtures for Samoa, what would that do for the world cups ?

marty2086 wrote:I'm saying people accused of stealing and being corrupt may steal and act like they are corrupt and would more than likely find a different way to fill their pockets at the expense of the game and the Samoan system

But that has nothing to do with world rugby upgrading their facilities. Rather than just handing the money over, and a corrupt system claiming they spent £500k on a lick of paint and a few toilet seats, then at least WR can make sure they are getting bang for their buck. They could oversee it all, and make sure the money is going into the facilities, and not corrupt pockets.

And then hand over control to the corrupt?

Makes sense

marty, sometimes I think you just come on here to disagree with me.

OK, so what would you suggest ?

You really have a high opinion of yourself

Maybe get rid of the corrupt administrators running the game in Samoa? It's a radical idea but maybe makes some sense so might be a stretch for you

Latest twist:

Samoa rugby not bankrupt, says World Rugby

We're broke.... we're not broke.... we're broke..... we're not broke....

Okay, so I was being a little facetious there.  Now the serious bit after actually reading the thing.

And this is the bit I choose to think about most:

"The governing body [World Rugby] also rejected suggestions from Malielegaoi that it interfered with the appointment of Samoa's head coach.

World Rugby says the SRU instead failed to accept the recommendation of an independent selection panel, which led to the withdrawal of funding for the position."

So Malielogaoi got it right the first time.  "We'll fund the position, but here's the guy we want to parachute into the role against your will.  Call us when you're ready to accept him".

This World Rugby collective - and it's seemingly constant globe-trotting 'independent' selection panels on just about everything - are beginning to smell a lot like FIFA.  'If you can't persuade then bully', seems to be the mantra from this head-high bunch of roving suits and ties.

While the SRU's failure to implement some jointly agreed high-performance initiatives in 2017 is a concern to World Rugby, it has resulted in a small amount of conditional investment being withheld

I read that as, SRU got given funding for a specific purpose....funding did not go to where it was supposed to - so was cut.
Sounds reasonable.

The bit about recommendations for a head coach is a bit strange - unless World rugby was planning on paying their salary too, in which case you would expect them to have a say in the appointment.

Sorry SecretFly - just seen you said pretty much the same thing RE: Head coach.

I read the Head Coach bit as being the Samoa Rugby Union wanting to take the funding from WR and putting the Prime Ministers nephew into the job.

The idea is, or should be, that Samoan Rugby cannot compete on a level playing field and therefore needs assistance or it just implodes and is no more.  Therefore, the idea of WR 'helping out' Samoa is just that - the Overseeing Organisation seeing the strains, appreciating those strains, sympathising with those strains and offering to help out.

Helping out is not or should not be dictating terms and conditions of the help out.  That kind of help has been seen in the past as undue influence over autonomy - just go back to how FIFA was running its system of help-outs buying certain votes down the line.  
You can't simply say, like WR seems to be suggesting, that all these problems the 'smaller nations' have is just always bad admin.  It isn't.. It's the strains of trying to exist in a world where the Professional model of Rugby is running away and rampant  in the places big populations collect and do sponsorship and other business.  Samoa can't compete because it can't compete, and in reality it probably is terminal.  But should that be used as an excuse by WR execs for getting some of their own favourites in and dictating Samoan National Rugby policy?

The poor and small are always 'corrupt' or are always seen to have the most potential to be 'corrupt', yet the big and powerful always have all the tools to be corrupt and have the methods to best hide it too.

Thats absolute Rot Secretfly. Theres no pointin WR giving Samoa monety if its just being pocketed. More than anything else they leave themsleves open to being in breach of money laundering laws and losing their own financiers who would run a mile at such poor  management practise.

FIFA is a great example of an organsiasatin thats doen the opposite and actively helped corrupt associations to keep a corrupt center in place.

If they arent going to put any strings on the money and expect at least an attempt to appear to be using it properly and as it was intended then what message doe sthat send out to other unions?

Sure the President might steal money form somewhere else, Ive no doubt that is going on, but at least its not World Rugbys money they are stealing.

If the Samoan Union goes bankrupt that isnt great but its sure as hell isnt at the door of those trying to promote basic financial governance and good practise.

Running of the SRU aside.
Do you agree with the way that the SRU is asking for donations from the public, and effectively trying to guilt trip the unions they are scheduled to play into a better financial package?

Not sure they are trying to guilt trip the unions they are playing (not as a first aim anyway).

It seems to me that Samoa RU are unable to use the funds from World Rugby to line their own pockets, so try and get extra money from the local population instead.

While the concept of "Big Brother" dictating how people can spend their money does worry me, the fact that audits of the Samoa Union finances show that they have taken rather large amounts of money from World Rugby and used it for non-rugby purposes. How many times should we trust them to behave before imposing restrictions - or giving no cash at all?

If there is corruption in the Samoan government (as it has been suggested) then the WR is right not to just hand over money.

Having lived in Africa in highly corrupt countries, Im well aware that money never reaches the places is supposed to and in cases like that its better to implement the actions themselves.

Ultimately Samoan rugby need to handle it. If the PM is causing issues they need to become separate from his meddling.

LondonTiger wrote:Not sure they are trying to guilt trip the unions they are playing (not as a first aim anyway).

It seems to me that Samoa RU are unable to use the funds from World Rugby to line their own pockets, so try and get extra money from the local population instead.

While the concept of "Big Brother" dictating how people can spend their money does worry me, the fact that audits of the Samoa Union finances show that they have taken rather large amounts of money from World Rugby and used it for non-rugby purposes. How many times should we trust them to behave before imposing restrictions - or giving no cash at all?

WR are dictating how the SRU spends WRs money, if you give someone money for something then you want to get what you pay for

When you say you are broke and aren't really, in the hope of getting people to give you money then you aren't guilt tripping people you are conning them

It should be noted that the sae man who claims the SRU is broke, once claimed that Samoa only received a few million in aid after the 2010 tsunami. In fact there is tens of millions in aid that vanished

If tens of millions in aid vanished then the aid delivery systems (run by multi-nationals) are as bad as Samoa at bookkeeping

Wherever there is a natural disaster and the 'world' moves in to help, it seems 10s of millions goes missing.... it even happened with poor Sir BobbishGeldofian and his famine charitee.
Do we always blame the needy for the money going missing? Or can we legitimately question those too who wait for a disaster to happen so as they can drop money into a 'disaster zone' (by definition not a very well organised or controlled environment) and see how much of it they can hoover up for themselves before order is truly restored?

Oh Fly! You is much much too cynical a humanbeing...

The point was that the man claiming the SRU are broke has a history of claiming something he is in charge isn't getting the cash it's meant to be getting

marty2086 wrote:The point was that the man claiming the SRU are broke has a history of claiming something he is in charge isn't getting the cash it's meant to be getting

So he's a normal run-of-the-mill regular politician?

Sorry Marty.... I shouldn't be so flippant with the topic but the idea of 'corruption' and 'banana republic' leaders always makes me laugh a little considering the absolute soulless evil bastards that inhabit the boardrooms of bank, big corporations and governments the world over.

Anyway, I'd much prefer WR to just say no to all request from Samoa rather than try to use 'assistance' to give themselves an administrative foothold in a country's Union. That's too open to corruption and manipulation. If they can't help under the conditions then don't help...but don't have the arrogance to be telling Samoa who to choose as coach - that's their business.

Great to see that the English players have voted against giving some of their match fee to the Samoans.

Its not their problem the Samoan Union is poorly run, but I'm sure they'll buy them a drink afterwards.

Getting off to a good start making new friends post-Brexit, TightHEAD

But it isn't our problem, and I don't see what Samoa can offer Post Brexit Britain.

We're not post brexit yet. But this is about rugby not Britain.

No 7&1/2 wrote:We're not post brexit yet. But this is about rugby not Britain.

Stay on topic then!