India VS South Africa

First topic message reminder :

Though am posting here bit late.

Indian team for South Africa has a bit of surprise with the coming of Jasprit Bumrah. He has not bowled with the red ball since January 2017. Indian team rarely go with a backup WK. Yeah this is a welcome call for Parthiv Patel, but I hardly see any chance of him padding up.

Rest the team is quite similar with Vijay, Rahul, Dhawan, Virat(c), Pujara, Rahane, Rohit, Saha, Parthiv, Ashwin, Jadeja, Hardik, Bhubhneshwar, Shami, Ishant, Umesh, Bumrah.

The final 11 selection would be tricky for Kohli, as he might go for only one spinner and this time its difficult to chose between Jadeja and Ashwin. I think Dhawan will be carrying drinks and Rahul will bat. The probable 11 would be

Vijay
Rahul
Pujara
Kohli(c)
Rahane
Hardik
Ashwin
Saha
Bhubhneshwar
Shami
Umesh/Bumrah

Duty281 wrote:100 up. Sunshine out.

Bookmakers think this is a done deal - South Africa 1/8. I’m not so sure just yet, wickets have a habit of falling in clusters in this test, though I would make the Saffers favourites.

Yes I would agree with you.

Amla out after a brilliant 52. Sharp catch.

Still 117 to go...

And now ABDV goes, caught out by an excellent Bumrah delivery.

Game on!

136/3. 105 to get.

Mammoth two hour forty-five minute session coming up!

South Africa 145/5. Two quick wickets in the evening has made India favourites again.

Think Elgar should start taking risks, otherwise he could run out of teammates.

The final sessions in this test have seen the most wickets fall and that could be enough to see India over the line. South Africa need to look to score though and the closer they get to the target the more India will have to alter fields etc.

summary of the day so far

--India came out thinking SA afraid of the pitch and the terrible pitch will roll them over....

--when that didn't happen, they bowled short to intimidate sA...that didn't work

--Pitch went to sleep, Amla batted beautifully and Elgar fought it out

--India buckled down....started bowling fuller, bent their back, bowled tight, patiently....choked run flow

and juts before tea.....pitch came alive again...balls started jumping a bit...wickets started falling...now 5 down less than 150

Ishant & Bumrah are in the midst of good spell using their height and pace respectively to get the pitch to misbehave

and once again.....India nose ahead.....new ball would be very handy to have

--only thing i missed is how Patel is not keeping and reserve DK is allowed to keep

Good point from the comms team that India were 146/6 but recovered to make 247. Of course, there was some poor fielding which helped!

Philander and the next two are all capable of chipping in with 20/30 scores, but I wouldn’t want to rely on Morkel or Ngidi.

New ball about an hour away.

KP_fan wrote:

--only thing i missed is how Patel is not keeping and reserve DK is allowed to keep

Presumed injured; Du Plessis gave permission.

The cricket is enthralling to watch

It’s being ruined by some of the worst commentary I’ve ever heard

Philander playing aggressively. Right idea.

But now he chops on. Still 84 to get.

Philander chops on and the 6th wicket falls.

shami not on top of his game
waster review by Kohli.......low probability even though tactical

South Africa 157 for 6 and still need 84 runs to win whilst India need four wickets.

and Phiander plays a bad shot.......low probability that a cross batted hoik like that will come through
Impending new Ball at the back of mind creating pressure on them to maximze runs before new ball...caused that wickt

It was exceptional batting by Amla...to keep India at bay
his wicket has opened flood gates

And Phehlukwayo gets an inside edge onto his stumps for second wicket in the over. India three wickets away from the win now. Their tales are up.

The selection of Phehlukwayo let’s say, hasn’t worked out...

Superb comeback from India.

put the ball in right areas....now the ptich the new ball and most importantly pressure will do it for india

And now Rabada edges to first slip. Saffers are 160 for 8. The end is nigh.

Rabada didn’t last long.

Time for Elgar to swing.

Brilliant...this has been a very very hard fought effort by India

Now Morkel out first ball. Clean bowled. India rampant.

Don’t understand what Elgar is doing here - not swinging and giving strike to the tailenders

8 wickets have now fallen for 40 odd
Shami looks listless for 80% of his bowling in each of the 3 tests and yet produces one brilliant spell in each to get his 4 to 5 wickets per test

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Don’t understand what Elgar is doing here - not swinging and giving strike to the tailenders

he knows its gone...wants to carry the bat throuhg i guess

South Africa 177 for 9 and still 64 runs needed. India need one more wicket.

And a decision reviewed and overturned and Ngidi is out. India win by 64 runs. Great test match. Well done India.

Duty281 wrote:Should be a high-class series, the only disappointment being that it's 3 tests, not 5.

India are on an excellent winning run, and boast a formidable batting line-up, but are largely untested outside the subcontinent. South Africa have a fearsome pace attack.

Narrow nod to South Africa, 2-1 to them is my prediction.

As expected, then. Been a very enjoyable series, with 2-1 the correct margin on balance, I think.

Elgar will be gutted after his efforts today, Amla too. But it was a fantastic comeback from India, led by Sharma and Bumrah, when they looked defeated.

5-for for shami as India win.....he bowled well...but the match changing spell was of Ishant and Bumrah......they plucked out the top4 batsmen when SA was going well

A thoroughly entertaining Test full of hard fought cricket and brilliant performances. It is just a shame that we learned when England drew in Melbourne that none of this counts.

8 SA batsmen got out in single digits
Elgar was gritty bit lucky...Amla's was the classy inning twice in the game....like kohli he was in a diffrent zone

Duty281 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Should be a high-class series, the only disappointment being that it's 3 tests, not 5.

India are on an excellent winning run, and boast a formidable batting line-up, but are largely untested outside the subcontinent. South Africa have a fearsome pace attack.

Narrow nod to South Africa, 2-1 to them is my prediction.

As expected, then. Been a very enjoyable series, with 2-1 the correct margin on balance, I think.

Elgar will be gutted after his efforts today, Amla too. But it was a fantastic comeback from India, led by Sharma and Bumrah, when they looked defeated.

yeah...by the time India acclimatized and got the optimal team combination. series was over
5 or atleast 4 tests would have been great.........we now have to bear 6 ODIs and 3 T20s

Well done India !

Kept their nerve when Amla and Elgar looked to be taking the game away from them and took their well earned win...

Think 2-1 ends up being a better representation of this series than 3-0 would have been. India still looking for a series win in SA ; but far from disgraced.

Shame about the pitch for this match.

Could not come here yesterday, and managed to catch the action only in parts. When I switched on, there was a late start due to an outfield problem and unsure about the time of resumption. Then when I checked, South Africa were 70-1 with Elgar and Amla fight on. Watched a bit, wondered what happened to the pitch aas South Africa crossed hundred without any further damage and runs picking up the flow. Thought one might bring 2 perhaps but was concerned AB was still to bat. Then when I got back, saw Shami cleaning up Morne! And onto a fine win for Kohli's side.
Excellent spells from Ishant Sharma and Jasprit Bumrah brought them back into the game when Amla and Elgar were taking it away. Shami then sprang back to life, putting in a fine spell that ran through the rest of the lineup. All throughout, Bhuvi remained as disciplined as ever and even Hardik chipped in with a spell wherein he didn't give away nothing much, besides taking a sharp catch to get Amla.
Kohli came back to his senses somewhat and brought Rahane back in and left out Rohit, that in itself made a world of difference. Perhaps Ashwin over Hardik would have been better, but after the all-rounder put in a one-man counterattack in the first test and kept India in the game with bat and ball, perhaps this was the only choice. A brute but not totally undeserved call would have been to bench Shami who failed to really lead the attack in this series, but he stepped up just when it was absolutely needed.

This side has character. Kohli wants to win and create that winning culture. He has to be more mature with selection calls, Some players can't play test cricket, and Rohit Sharma is one of them regardless of the wonderful things he can do in limited over games on flattish tracks. As Sid Monga of cricinfo observed, it is unfair to expect Rohit to do the kind of things that Ajinkya Rahane can do at 5 in test matches just as one can't really expect Rahane to smash them big the way Rohit does in OD games at the top of the order. Kohli has to move on and should not undermine the confidence of his key test batsmen, Cheteshwar Pujara, Ajinkya Rahane and Murali Vijay.
And despite his failure in this series, KL Rahul is miles ahead of Dhawan as an opener. Unlike Dhawan is not a misfit in a test team, but his place is in the reserves...

The other issue the team will have to address is to find a safe wicketkeeper who is good with the bat. Saha has got the heart but not the technique and ability to consistently contribute in overseas conditions against decent bowling units. Parthiv has the batting skills but isn't safe enough behind the wickets. Karthik is not quite good enough with the bat, and not better than Patel with the gloves.
So they have to invest in one of the younger lots. Think Sanju Samson is the best batting talent for the long format stuff. Rishabh Pant has potential, but after his highes of the first full FC season, he struggled in the last Ranji season. Samson has been around in domestic cricket for a while though he's still very young. One of Samson, Pant or Ishan Kishan have to be invested upon sooner rather than later.
Clearly missing MSD in tests even after 3 years of his test retirement.

msp83 wrote:This side has character. Kohli wants to win and create that winning culture. He has to be more mature with selection calls, Some players can't play test cricket, and Rohit Sharma is one of them regardless of the wonderful things he can do in limited over games on flattish tracks. As Sid Monga of cricinfo observed, it is unfair to expect Rohit to do the kind of things that Ajinkya Rahane can do at 5 in test matches just as one can't really expect Rahane to smash them big the way Rohit does in OD games at the top of the order. Kohli has to move on and should not undermine the confidence of his key test batsmen, Cheteshwar Pujara, Ajinkya Rahane and Murali Vijay.
And despite his failure in this series, KL Rahul is miles ahead of Dhawan as an opener. Unlike Dhawan is not a misfit in a test team, but his place is in the reserves...

Very True

You've addressed all right issues MSP and your recommendation are also quite sane....
my two cents further

1) Kohli is definitely miles ahead in his desire, willingness to win overseas and to execute the art of taking 20 wickets.....compared to Dhoni and most other captains...and at par with ganguly
His execution skills are better than ganguly's ....once he smells blood, he cleans up the sides and gears himself with adequate bowling resources to do so


2) But he took batting resources for granted
It's criminal to leave out Rahane.....he's India's technically BEST batsman in overseas conditions...and Rahul is miles ahead of Dhawan...who as you rightly said can be in the squad as reserve opener
what was worrying was the mindset that prompted kohli to look at limited over FTBs ahead of Rahane and Rahul

Eventually he did the right things...but we could have won one more test had he not messed up batting selections

3) I am a supporter of Pandya.....normally India will play one spinner & very occasionally 2 spinners... so Pandya will be 4th seamer routinely and occasionally 3rd seamer... and will get to do a fair bit of bowling in first innings...with his speed and variations...he is a handy 5th bowler..who will not only control an end but will pick wickets also
Centurion test was an odd exception when Ind played 4 seamers so pandya was under bowled

His batting is very impactful...he has reflexes to handle pace and counter attack....all sorts of bowling.... but given his style he will come through one in 4 or 5 innings......and when he does he will change the game...like he did in T1.....he's not a steady get-set batsman nor is that his role coming in at No. 7 or 8

4) so Ind will play 5 batsmen and as discussed above when you have only 5 you cannot lose two of them to bizarre sub-optimal selections like Dhawan and Rohit

5) Further there has to be a WK who can bat at No.6.....better than Saha could as we discussed i think in earlier series also....when we have only 5 speacilist batsman

Parthiv is better than Saha IMO....but is an Iffy WK.....and karthik even worse as a WK....you can't fluff 2 to 3 chances...behind the stumps per test match.

Those were Parthiv & Karthik's problems, when they got their breaks and extended runs befroe Dhoni arrived.... else Dhoni would have never made his debut and established himsefl in the team...they were both tried and given chances ahead of Dhoni....and failed as credible WKs

So we need to be on lookout for a WK who is solid as a WK and a batsman and Samson ain't even a first class Ranji WK
Choices are
Ishan Kishan
Rishab Pant
The above two are deemed suited for limited over....
Sheldon Jackson...whose Ranji average of 50 and runs scored in proper FC format make him a proper batsman....but his ability to play pace , bounce and WK skills I have not seen first hand

The other option is to have a serious discussion with Kedar Jadhav and turn him into a WK...at aged 33 this should be presented to him as his only option to play 3 years of test cricket....and if he can be as good ( or bad ) as Parthiv behind the stumps...then he gives a much more solid option with the bat then karthik or Parthiv....

6) small lower order contributions are very important in these low scoring games which Kohli also took for granted

Bhuvi and Ashwin both are very competent batsmen when you play them
at numbers 8,9 ( or highest at 7).....
when selecting 5 bowlers....they must always be in......and not sidelined for perceived marginal bowling superiority of someone else who cannot get you even 10 runs...

with with WK coming at 6
pandya, Ashwin, Bhuvi 7 thru 9 give you enough batting that compensate the lack of aspecialits 6 batsman

if occasionally we play 2 spinners, then Jadeja as second spinner will also add batting strength

In all the above discussion point No. 5 i.e having a WK who is a top class WK and a decent batsman is the biggest weak-link where we don't have a ready candidate on the horizon

KPF, Yes it is the keeper issue that is going to be the major one. We shouldn't forget both Patel and Karthik are nearly 33 in any case and Saha is also around the same age.
Pant and Kishan have been picked for the India A teams but haven't had consistent success. Pant at least has been consistently keeping wickets for Delhi in the last to FC seasons while he and Kishan haven't always done that for the A team, sometimes playing as batsmen. Samson on the other hand, while getting his opportunities with the A team, played more as a batsman than a keeper. He started out keeping wickets for Kerala, then for a season or 2 he played mostly as a batsman only, and in this season he played as a wicketkeeper batsman. He has had his ups and downs, and all that experience from domestic cricket. Among the 3 of them, Pant, Kishan and himself, I feel Sanju would have the best batting technique. None of them are ready safte bets with the gloves, but a call have to be taken on of them sooner rather than later...
Like Jackson, another domestic keeper batsman who has scored well in FC cricket is Punjab's Uday Kaul. He has been around for some time, but in the last couple of seasons, he has sometimes played as a batsman only, perhaps suggesting his keeping isn't the greatest. Same is the case with Jackson, Saurashtra often plays Sagar Jogiani as the WK and Jackson as batsman alone.
Don't think the Jadhav option can get off the ground, he's more like Rahul, can step in an emergency. Not really a keeper, more of a batsman who can keep. No way can such a keeper play test cricket at the age of 33.

India has a lot of ODis, T20is & IPL between now and the tour of Eng which is the next big series starting in June 2018
So there is no opportunity to try out any new WK combination in real test match situations

There are some empty spaces and Ind might do well to organize some tests vs Afganista, Zim, BD in seaming conditions

Think there is a series planned with Afghanistan in June, their debut in the test format. They do have seamers who can bowl above 90 MPH. a lively track would be good challenge and preparation... Don't know where would they play, it'll be peak summer in North India, and the Rains would hit Kerala usually by the first week of June and start traveling northwards. Perhaps Dharamshala?

Dharamsala , Mohali, Kolkata are venues for seaming pitches
But the seaming pitch in India is no better than the Dry-pitch by SA standards in T2

two tests would have been better......hope India has few warm-up games scehduled in England......a test match in Ireland might have been perfect

Which do you think is more likley ....India organising a low key test series in a minor nation with little or no interest to a tv audience withthe aim of providing useful practrise for their overpaid stars

Or organsing a pointless home ODI series to help pay their overpayed stars and line the pockets of board members, then use the lack of preperation time and difficult ocnditions as an excuse for getting stuffed away to England?

Gooseberry wrote:Which do you think is more likley ....India organising a low key test series in a minor nation with little or no interest to a tv audience withthe aim of providing useful practrise for their overpaid stars

Or organsing a pointless home ODI series to help pay their overpayed stars and line the pockets of board members, then use the lack of preperation time and difficult ocnditions as an excuse for getting stuffed away to England?

this time i have a suspcion it will be a one off test with Afghanistan in June
and timeoff after the IPL for Indian cricketers to play in the counties for a few weeks if counties would accept them

Cheteshwar Pujara will be turning out for Yorkshire in the coming county season. Should be fruitful preparation for the England tests.
KPF, playing a test in Mohali in June won't be a good idea as temperatures would be running over 40 for most of the day. Even a day-night test may not be a good idea in that part of the world... Dharamsala or somewhere down south... Don't know whether the Kolkkata weather would suit the game at that point of the year, should certainly be better than Mohali though.......

If it is a venue in the south, hopefully they'd go in for a D/N test? Or will it be too much to ask for a debut test of a nation?

Markram makes ODI debut for SA, Faf makes a ton

--Both teams have called it a series with an eye on world cup next year...and that's what these bilateral series aught to be

--I think Kohli has been "told" to play Rahane at 4 and without any more experimenting ...... lock Rahane at 4 until the world cup..............land that's a very good decision finally whoever has enforced it .....he is one of India's bets batsman on pitches with something for seamers / pacers.....
and while in Aus/NZ/Eng and SA also ODIs are on flat pitches..these are not absolute patta roads of subcontinent where even 360 is chasable.

--and so Ind's top-4 is OK now....dhawan does a better job opening in limited overs even in overseas conditions....Rohit is one fourth the player that he is at home ....and Rahul would be better , but I can live with Rohit

--5,6,7 are OK also but which one of Pandya, Dhoni and Jadhav bats at 5,6,7 under what circumstances should be flexible.....and not cast in stone....flexible depending on situations

--Ind has to be careful with the load on Bhuvi and Bumrah,.....now that they are in tests squad regularly and play other seamers also in ODIs

--Wrist spinners make a difference in ODis
and from the time in CT Kohli lost because of the ineffectiveness of ashwin and Jadeja..he has moved away from them and for good I think....
relying heavily on wrist spinners...Chahl and Kuldeep
Kuldeep is an amazing talent, his flight guile, deception makes him a very good test match spinner also