England - Summer Tour to South Africa

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Emirates Airline Park, Johannesburg SkySports action
16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action




Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

TBC

But why do you have to announce that your not picking someone because he's foreign. You don't say anything.

Ross would be none the wiser for example.

Please note guys I'm not stupid ...I know there are rules , grey areas , parents have travelled and had kids etc...and all sorts else.
I'm also not some foreign hating inbred. We've had wonderful players from all over the world at the falcons let alone the rest of the prem.

I just believe international rugby is about countries fielding the best side they can from players in that particular country Not looking else where to fill in gaps when players become available after 3 years etc or clutching for players in the SH who have an English parent or even worse grandparent and luring them with £ signs.

Well curry for me was the better of the 7s though graham has been getting the plaudits for his carrying. And the attention of the citing officer to come!

You can be picky all you like but every other nation would select Ross if he was the best 6 available.

Ireland and others are actively searching for players to qualify under residency. It's like an arms race.

And its a facrce sam.

Anyway lets leave it there.

Ross tonight was ok...no more.

The Currys however were excellent. And I thought Gary Graham was excellent also.
I haven't seen the incident so cant comment on that yet...something must have riled him.

My issue is that players like Ross are journeymen who are no where near good enough for their own country, and in all honesty no better than the homegrown options.

That the other point LT...he wasn't great yesterday.

Well like I said earlier we will have wait and trust Eddie. Looks like the backrow competition is heating up nicely. So it will probably be Haskell and Robshaw until 2020!

I'm really starting to doubt it'll be anyone else than a curry. I am excited to see a curry willis mercer combo over the summer. Lacks a big carrier vs a top team at the moment but with a bit of development.

Apparently Gary Graham is a good ball carrier (Geordie has more Intel, I'm sure) and according to some I spoken too was having a better game than jono Ross. Willis isn't bad at carrying either and Mercer is pretty handy too so putting in Simmonds as well could be a dynamic backrow!

Jonathan Joseph has just gone off with an ankle injury. He couldn't walk unaided. Might not appear again this season.

TV has just shown him making his way out on crutches.

We'll just place Clifford in the Simpson daniel group of incredibly unlucky with injuries category. Torn his hamstring and out for the season.

No 7&1/2 wrote:We'll just place Clifford in the Simpson daniel group of incredibly unlucky with injuries category. Torn his hamstring and out for the season.

I wonder, if Wilkinson was playing today, whether he'd have ever lasted long enough to win a World Cup. His body finally gave out after 2003, and didn't really recover until he went to Toulon. Looking at some of the injuries which are stopping players even getting a proper start to their international careers today, you can't help thinking Wilkinson's career might look at lot like Manu's - period's of brilliance blighted by injuries which stop him taking part in key campaigns.

Clifford had apparently pulled the hamstring off the bone. That sounds like a real long recovery time, and as a backrow who relied on speed I wonder if he'll ever get back to where he was. A terrible shame and terrible luck for the guy.

Yoda wrote:Apparently Gary Graham is a good ball carrier (Geordie has more Intel, I'm sure) and according to some I spoken too was having a better game than jono Ross. Willis isn't bad at carrying either and Mercer is pretty handy too so putting in Simmonds as well could be a dynamic backrow!

MOM on Friday night...I lost count the number of line breaks and defenders he beat. Plus he's a right aggressive physical guy. Shame he got injured for the Italy game...

Such a shame to hear about Clifford. Wont be seeing him for a long time then.

To be honest both the Currys could make the 7 position their own. Ben who started was class, physical and aggressive.

Tom was also very good when he came on for Ben on Friday.

Underhill
Ben Curry
Tom Curry
Gary Graham
Simmonds

We have a good selection of 7's to pick from. Underhill might even become a 6.

Graham will get a bit of a rest following his punches to the back of the head of a player on the floor I suspect.

So he'll be ready to go for South Africa.

He'll not get a big ban. Although I still haven't seen the incident.

Webber will get a lot more.

I'm having a brain fade remind me what webber did it's escaping me. No idea on the ban length for graham can't think of any other incidents like it. Due to him doing it twice makes me think it'll be on the harsher end of the scale.

Graham was on the floor and Webber had his knee on his head whilst apparently scraping at his eyes. It looks pretty bad on the clip but it's hard to see if he's making contact with the eyes.

I watched he match but this passed me by. Ta for the update. Given the rest of the match I don't think webber was worrying about getting a passport mind.

Well the clip didn't do Webber any favours at all.

Why cant I get a clip of the Graham incident?

I'm sure it'll crop up when cited.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm having a brain fade remind me what webber did it's escaping me. No idea on the ban length for graham can't think of any other incidents like it. Due to him doing it twice makes me think it'll be on the harsher end of the scale.

There are all sorts of factors that come into play. If the other player was on the ground, was he defenceless?

Duncan McRae on O'Gara in 2001 is one that springs to mind as a yardstick, a player punching another on the ground. He punched multiple times and got 9 weeks. Was the Graham incident worse than that? I hesitate to call it "better", so was it less bad?

Punching gets you 2 weeks at the lower end, 4 weeks at the mid range and 8-52 at the top end. So if we're saying it was midrange because it was twice and the player was on the floor, then that would be 4 weeks, down to 2 if mitigations are available? Or would we say it was top end?

Less bad. I'm. On the margin between using the word punch and hit. Only twice but I suppose as O'Gara was cut open it looks worse as well. Curry was hia at the point it was pointed out and don't know if he failed it or was just replaced by his brother anyway. Graham ain't been in trouble either has he? But today's standards are harsher.in penalties. Thanks for th info on sanctions.

Apparently Ben Curry passed the HIA, but Tom was left on anyway.

Whens the last game...is the prem final the actual last one?

Assuming it'll be Sarries and Newcastle, will that affect any selections?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Whens the last game...is the prem final the actual last one?

Assuming it'll be Sarries and Bath, will that affect any selections?  

!!!!!!!!

OOps, changed!

18th May - Premiership Semis
26th May - Premiership Final
27th May - England v Barbarians
2nd June - Blank
9th June - 1st Test v SA


AP final will obviously affect the Squad for Barbarians, but have no impact on the SA tour (other than injuries created)

It'll be interesting to see the squad then.

I genuinely hope he gives a few of the core squad a rest, those who were on the Lions tour and been in Euro finals etc.

That's a lot of games they've played

My gut feel is that Eddie will not be inclined to rest very many players on fatigue grounds. I do hope that between England and teh Clubs they can manage these guys workload in an organised manner.

So Ben Curry holds on to Graham's leg and Graham hits him twice in the head to release...hard to say if it's a punch. Not great play from Graham but slightly understandable, it was a tense game.

Not overly impressed with Ben Currys performance, didn't really bring much and he's nowhere near ready to start for England. Tom was a little more productive but again, I'm not seeing the hype. Graham outplayed the two and was excellent, especially his carrying and pace to the breakdown.

Can't agree with that assessment at all. Curry was miles better at the breakdown both in clearing and securing quickly and challenging for he ball. Grahams best chance for England is challenging at 6.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Whens the last game...is the prem final the actual last one?

Assuming it'll be Sarries and Newcastle, will that affect any selections?

Another fun consideration is that we are coming up to the end of the season.

If Graham were to get a one or two week ban, then he'd serve out during Newcastle's regular season games. If Graham got any longer, then it only counts as a ban week if he is going to miss meaningful fixtures. So if Newcastle were in the play-offs, he would carry on serving his ban. If not, his ban would be paused (this differs from the situation in 2001, where having researched it earlier, McRae served out in 9 weeks in his off-season). The next meaningful fixtures would be England games, so if Graham got 4 weeks and Newcastle lost out on the play-offs, then he'd serve two weeks with Newcastle and if Eddie Jones says he would have picked him, he'll serve 2 weeks with England before being available for I guess the second test? The Barbarians will count as a meaningful fixture even though it is not a capped game.

This is of course assuming no-one can arrange a Sonny-Bill fixture... https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/other-rugby/world-rugby-surprised-after-sonny-bill-williams-wins-appeal-over-dangerous-charge-ban-35998354.html

However having read 7.5's assessment of the incident and this below from Pooly, I'd question whether a ban is necessary. If someone holds onto your leg I don't think it's unreasonable to use an amount of force to free yourself. Even if they think he's been overzealous, it could be one of those citations where they decree that a yellow card would have been sufficient and no ban, otherwise I would be thinking possibly lower end and maximum mitigation to mean one week.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:So Ben Curry holds on to Graham's leg and Graham hits him twice in the head to release...hard to say if it's a punch. Not great play from Graham but slightly understandable, it was a tense game.

LondonTiger wrote:My gut feel is that Eddie will not be inclined to rest very many players on fatigue grounds. I do hope that between England and teh Clubs they can manage these guys workload in an organised manner.

I hope you're wrong but fear you may be correct. I think he might rest one or two on fatigue grounds, but unlikely to be any more.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can't agree with that assessment at all. Curry was miles better at the breakdown both in clearing and securing quickly and challenging for he ball. Grahams best chance for England is challenging at 6.

I didn't see that at all mate, I thought he was bang average. Graham has a bit of X Factor about him, the way he skips past defenders is quite impressive, be interesting to see if he can take this to the next level. I prefer Tom to Ben tbh, he has a bit more about him.

I loved the early turnover Ben secured which showed great technique and awareness. Thought he poached his try well, and then stood up for himself when Mickey Young (and one other) tried to hassle him after scoring. That the ref penalised Curry was for me crazy.

I must admit I have seen more of Ben - and so far prefer him to his brother.

I'm the same LT.

If we're talking about England getting the breakdown sorted pooly it's a curry at 7 for me. Graham was eye catching ball in hand but didn't see enough o suggest he's an international 7. 6 as I said possibly and agree with geordie that ross looked average and I'm assuming reports that Jones was interested in him must have been confused!

Would I be right in saying Ben is the more rugged one, but Tom is a slight bit more cultured?

Its nice that we're talking about 3 potential 7's or 6's aside from Underhill and Simmonds.

There are a lot of young players with potential, with just 18 months separating the Currys, Mercer, Evans and Willis, with the likes of Underhill and Simmonds not much older. Graham is almost a Grandad by comparison

However the younger lads need to nail down first choice starting berths. Evans is the furthest from doing that and until he does questions about his size will continue. The Currys are competing against each other, Mercer with Underhill, Willis with the coaches son and Graham dependent on the fitness of Wilson.and Welch.

So loads of promise, but all unfulfilled sonfar.

Don't forget Chisholm, injury permitting he'd be a great option at 6 in the futire

Having watched as much as I can of the next batch, Graham looks like the sort of player you want standing by you in the trenches and has more strings to his bow than I realise. I like the twins too but seem less imposing physically. Breakdown wise the twins are excellent. Willis is a grafter and competes for every inch, Underhill looks streaks ahead in the tackling stakes for me but does little else at the moment, Mercer is potentially one of those players like Tony diprose was, technically gifted. A nice headache for Eddie Jones to have. Of course there is the mental skills that can't be seen until they get into the squad, energy sappers or energy givers and all that. I guess time will tell, exciting though isn't it!

Here's a question though if you had to face an England team whose names would most fear seeing at 6,7&8?

Willis looks the most efficient at the breakdown from that batch for me. I don't think the Curry's add a great deal at the breakdown if I'm honest, bar the odd steal. They both seem quite switched on players though and are quick around the park.

If you want an English 7 who makes turnovers....then it's Will Welch. I think he has the most in the AP currently, or he's certainly right up there.

Gibson ward and cowan are the top 3 for turnovwrs apparently.

What's ideal your ideal back row/back 5 going into the AIs pooly?

Not sure I get the claims for a lack of physicality with the Currys.

From what ive seen I think they look more than physical...they put big hits in, breakdown savy...

They're way more physical than Hooper the Aussie 7 and he gets plenty of plaudits.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Willis looks the most efficient at the breakdown from that batch for me. I don't think the Curry's add a great deal at the breakdown if I'm honest, bar the odd steal. They both seem quite switched on players though and are quick around the park.

If you want an English 7 who makes turnovers....then it's Will Welch. I think he has the most in the AP currently, or he's certainly right up there.

Sadly Will Welches ship has well and truly sailed.

I rate the Curry's highly. Thought Ben played well on Friday night, and whilst Graham got all the plaudits (I lost count of his line breaks and men beaten) I thought Curry was a right pain in the backside all nigh till he went off and Tom continued that when he came on. I would have no qualms about them for England.

One of them (cant remember which ) put an absolute haymaker of a tackle in at one point. May have been Tom...

So is the back row the key area to fix.

What about the midfield and front row.

Which lock combo do you want.

What back 3?

For the summer or ais?
I would really like to see a starting lineup of this for a couple of games in the autumn or at least plenty of time off the bench.
Genge george sinckler
Launchbury Itoje
Robshaw b curry
Vunipola
Robson ford
May farell slade Nowell Watson.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Gibson ward and cowan are the top 3 for turnovwrs apparently.

I hadn't seen any stats tbh, it was mentioned on BT that Welch was turnover king and was topping the charts. They also said we had one of the strongest scrums in the AP as well, so I'll take that one with a pinch of salt.