England Summer Tour - Part 2

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa 42 - England 39

16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action


Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

England

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)

Inside backs
Danny Cipriani (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks) * Piers Francis
Dan Robson (Wasps) *
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens) *
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) Jason Woodward
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)


Back five
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Ben Earl (Saracens) *
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)  
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Brad Shields (Hurricanes/ Wasps) *
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Jack Willis (Wasps) * Nathan Hughes
Mark Wilson (Newcastle)

Front row
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)





South Africa

Forwards (24):
Nizaam Carr (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Bismarck du Plessis (hooker, Montpellier, France, 79, 55 - 11t)
Dan du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 3, 0)
Jean-Luc du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 10, 10 - 2t)
Pieter-Steph du Toit (lock, DHL Stormers, 32, 20 - 4t)
Thomas du Toit (prop, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Jason Jenkins (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Steven Kitshoff (prop, DHL Stormers, 23, 5 - 1t)
Siya Kolisi (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 28, 20 - 4t)
Wilco Louw (prop, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Frans Malherbe (prop, DHL Stormers, 17, 0)
Bongi Mbonambi (hooker, DHL Stormers, 14, 5 - 1t)
Oupa Mohojé (loose forward, Toyota Cheetahs 18, 0)
Franco Mostert (lock, Emirates Lions, 18, 5 - 1t)
Tendai Mtawarira (prop, Cell C Sharks, 98, 10 - 2t)
Ox Nche (prop, Toyota Cheetahs, uncapped)
Sikhumbuzo Notshe (loose forward, DHL Stormers, uncapped)
Trevor Nyakane (prop, Vodacom Bulls, 37, 5 - 1t)
Marvin Orie (lock, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
Chiliboy Ralepelle (hooker, Cell C Sharks 23, 5 - 1t)
Kwagga Smith (loose forward, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
RG Snyman (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Akker van der Merwe (hooker, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Duane Vermeulen (loose forward, Toulon, France, 39, 10 - 2t)

Backs (19):
Lukhanyo Am (centre, Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Curwin Bosch (utility back Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Damian de Allende (centre, DHL Stormers, 28, 15 - 3t)
Faf de Klerk (scrumhalf, Sale Sharks, England, 11, 0)
Robert du Preez (flyhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Aphiwe Dyantyi (wing, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
André Esterhuizen (centre, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Warrick Gelant (fullback, Vodacom Bulls, 2, 5 - 1t)
Travis Ismaiel (wing, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Elton Jantjies (flyhalf, Emirates Lions, 23, 203 - 2t, 38c, 39p)
Jesse Kriel (centre, Vodacom Bulls, 29, 40 - 8t)
Willie le Roux (fullback, Wasps, England, 41, 50 - 10t)
Makazole Mapimpi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Sibusiso Nkosi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Embrose Papier (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Handré Pollard (flyhalf, Vodacom Bulls, 26, 218 - 3t, 37c, 40p, 3d)
Frans Steyn (utility back, Montpellier, France, 56, 132 - 10t, 5c, 21p, 3d)
Ivan van Zyl (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Cameron Wright (scrumhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)[/b]

7.5, I do have some good news to report. Brad Shields had another underwhelming captain’s performance for the Hurricanes in a loss to the Highlanders tonight. He’s checked out so that’s good for you guys. Or maybe he is just average.

This has all turned a bit surreal, but some genuine discussion points.

I love watching Sexton play so good as a ten myself can appreciate the physical and mental skills the guy has. Ireland as a side are better than England although I don't think the gap is a chasm. If England put the same xv out every week I would be surprised as we don't look after what we have and how you are supposed to win matches as a English club barbarian team I have no idea.

Case in point the actual baabaas had a huge number of caps compared to ours because we play them just after our season has finished and the best players with caps are unavailable. ironically it was the established players who had a mare. I think on reflection we need to calm down and accept that currently we are woefully prepared for another gruelling season with world cup on the horizon with no idea who our starting team and replacements are because as soon as someone comes into the limelight they get injured. This training spat is the thin end of the wedge I reckon where if not managed properly could turn the clubs against the rfu again and we really will be in for trouble. It could be worse we could be kiwis and be overly obsessed with the game and let it affect our manners.

At least Munkian is occasionally constructive. Ebop went on the foe list and it makes reading this thread a lot easier.

My humblest of apologies for my display of poor manners. I only try to present facts. Some like 7.5 bury their heads in the sand like an ostrich and whom hark back to glory days and think England are the best (without having played the best) after Eddie’s stellar run.

But now what?

68 points is an absolute disgrace no matter who you’re playing and little alone the fricken baabaas. It’s shameful and shows a lack of pride in the jersey. Especially a team that has grand designs to be near the top.

England is suffering from paralysis by analysis

Too many so-so players rotating and rotating

It’s been happening for a while now

Poor leadership and that’s going to the top to the people that actually appoint the coaches! Short-sighted must-win-now-culture.

Love how every Kiwi fan is a rugby management expert with a full insight into whats going on in Englands camp.

I don't even know why people engage with this guy, he's only here for bites.

Don't be too hard on ebop he's held his hands up and admitted he does really get rugby so it's a learning curve for the lad.

Come on guys, be honest with yourselves

Why did Eddie the madman bring in the brain coach?

That’s a serious question and if you’re too scared to answer it then give yourself an uppercut and bury your head in the sand

This is serious stuff

Who is eddie the madman?

Stop with the lolz 7.5

Why the special brain coach?

So back row and centre seem the interesting areas of selection, what's your guess?

6. Robshaw
7. Curry
8. Vunipola

12. Farrell
13. Daly

Sgt_Pooly wrote:So back row and centre seem the interesting areas of selection, what's your guess?

6. Robshaw
7. Curry
8. Vunipola

12. Farrell
13. Daly

Back row yes.

Daly at 15 Sgt.
so:
12- Farrell
13- Slade / Lozowski

I have no idea who you're talking about now ebop. Are you still on rugby or taking up cricket? There is a cricket forum bit on here if that's more your sport.

I think jones will go Robshaw at 6 but he'll be dropped for the 2nd game. And slade 13 Daly at 15.

The thing is aswell is that Curry seems very powerful and explosive which his appearance doesn't give off....but I'd like to see some real explosive power on the 6 spot aswell.
But we just don't have anyone at the moment. Maybe Mercer can come off the bench.

I'd be fancying Wilson or Simmonds off the bench.

6. Shields
7. Curry
8. Vunipola

Is rather impressive though, has a bit of everything.

Ah I forgot about SImmonds

Id even be tempted to start him at 6.

6 Simmonds
7 Curry
8 BIlly

Now that has fireworks, breakdown, insane workrate, pace and power.

I'd be a little concerned of that flank combo GF. I like somebody who can truck it up on the flanks, not sure either could do that. The lineout has to be a consideration too with nobody able to lift Billy.

Robshaw cant do that either though Sgt.

Simmonds can do that ok, backed up by Billy, Genge, Sinkler, Mako when he comes on and which ever hooker plus Itoje.

Simmonds and Curry give you pace, incredibly high tackling and work rate, but also offensive ability...they can run good angles and run at space.

PS Itoje and Kruis are exceptional line out technicians, whilst Simmonds and Curry can be lifted.

ebop wrote:...Too many so-so players rotating and rotating...

Of all the charges that can be levelled at Jones, rotating players (so-so or otherwise) definitely isn't one of them. Instead, Jones has probably stuck with the same players for too long. That was shown up during the Six Nations, when an injury to Ben Youngs left us short of a scrum half. There are players who can do the job but Jones has only ever given decent game time to Youngs and Care.

The same can be said of hooker, where we don't know who comes after Hartley and George. If Hartley doesn't recover from concussion, or suffers another knock, then we'll need two more players alongside George. Again, at full back, we know that some of the squad can play in the position - Watson did so for the Lions - but no-one aside from Brown has been given much of a run.

Jones gets a bit of a pass on the back row. Haskell was an initial success but hasn't looked the same since his foot injury two years ago. Jones has looked for other players but Sam Jones, the Curry twins, Underhill, Gary Graham and Jack Clifford have all been injured at key moments. The same has now happened to Jack Willis. I suspect tactics have been the problem more than players over the last 12 months, so I don't see rotation as an issue there either.

On the matter of numerous specialist coaches, the biggest fan of using them was Clive Woodward, and it didn't stop him winning a World Cup. Martin Johnson said Woodward had a lot of good ideas, and some bad ones. He was asked about the visual perception training, which he famously refused to do, but Johnson did not slam Woodward for introducing it. Johnson recognized that it was possible to expand your field of view through eye exercises, but realized he wouldn't benefit, since it was a long-term programme, and he was at the end of his career.

Plenty of professional sports employ specialists to improve individual mental toughness. Golfers and tennis players have done so on an individual basis for a long time, and many goal kickers in rugby have incorporated some of their methods. There are plenty of ways in which rugby players can benefit from input on the mental side of the game. Coping with injury, keeping a lid on your temper, recovering from making a crucial mistake during a game, maintaining focus when your body is exhausted - some people have these skills naturally but many of us don't. Part of a good coaching environment is getting the right help to the right people. Martin Johnson could look after himself, but someone like Wilkinson could probably have used a lot more help.

GeordieFalcon wrote:PS Itoje and Kruis are exceptional line out technicians, whilst Simmonds and Curry can be lifted.

Kruis isn't touring.

I just don't really see Simmonds as an option at this level if I'm honest.

Is JKruis not in the squad? Ah I thought he was.

I think Simmonds can be very good. But not at 8. Ideally he moves to 12 and becomes a blistering centre.

Haha, would probably do ok there tbh . He's just too small and doesn't add much physicality.

I see him as a bit of a luxury player who adds very little at the top Ievel. He's got fantastic pace but no much else....is there space for him to be effective? I guess SA or Aus should be where he at his most effective.

Hard working luxury player. We lacked impact off the bench in the 6ns but he'd for me be the ideal player there. Can cover all 3 positions too.

As I said earlier he is a six for me who would be excellent there. I think I'm right in saying that curry goes up regularly for sale and seems quite good as he can get up quickly. I would love to Simmonds in the six shirt with his pace and link play and work rate complementing the balance of the backrow.

Yeah both currys cam be used as jumpers.

Simmonds isnt like a trafitional type 6 in the slightest, I just don't see him sticking around the squad after this tour. I'd take Armond over him every time.

It would have been good for both of them in the squad then gone horses for courses. Fan of Armand too.

Just found this for you ebob looks like we're not the only ones who use mental coaches, what a surprise!
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10405999

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is JKruis not in the squad? Ah I thought he was.

I think Simmonds can be very good. But not at 8. Ideally he moves to 12 and becomes a blistering centre.

Playing flankers in the centre. It's been done before..

Well Simmonds is actually shorter and slightly lighter than Brad Barritt,perhaps they could swap?

He's effective now. With billy or Hughes he could work well. As part of the 6ns patch work back row no.

We'll see I guess. I'd argue that he's not been effective so far and I'm struggling to see how he will be in the future, time will tell.

Sam Simmonds would be in my England set up.

Don't think he's an international 8 though, for me he'll end up a 6.

Again. Depends who the 6 is for me primarily. If it's Robshaw I don't think simmonds works well at 8. Have a big carrier there could do.

I think a Billy/Simmonds combo could be fun. Billy ties in a lot of players and makes space for others. Simmonds likes space...

I know it was only italy but he put in 22 tackles plus the 2 tries. He works hard too.

1.M Vunipola 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Launchbury 5.Itoje 6.Robshaw 7.T Curry 8.B Vunipola
9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Slade/Lozowski 14.Daly 15.Brown

16.Cowan-Dickie 17.Marler 18.Williams 19.Isiekwe 20.Simmonds 21.Robson 22.Cipriani 23.Solomona

My best guess is we will see something like that for the 1st test with Jones needing a win badly to get some heat off the set-up.

Over the series I expect we will then see Genge and Shields rotated into the squad to see how they perform. I expect Daly will start at 15 for at least 1 test as well.

Robshaw and Marler were both very poor against the Baabaas. Marler might have used up his last chance to remain second choice and Robshaw is perhaps lucky England have limited backrow options.

I hope to see a front row of Vunipola, George, Williams for stability at set piece and in the tight for the first half and then use Genge, LCD and Sinckler as the finishers. The impact of those three off the bench, particularly the aggression from Genge and Sinckler should hopefully see us get amongst the Book pack instead of fade as we seemed to in the 6N.

Unfortunately for England, our computer model gives them a hard time in South Africa, predicting a narrow South African win. Pretty close stuff though, so could easily go either way



If England win it would only be their fourth ever win in South Africa so all to play for.

https://sports4cast.com/2018/05/29/summer-tours-south-africa-v-england/

An exciting match up. If we were calling this back pre Six Nations England would've come up comfortable favourites but now, on South African soil, they appear very evenly matched, at least by our algorithm!

Shields has arrived....he looks good in white.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Shields has arrived....he looks good in white.

Pity his preferred colour is black.

munkian wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Shields has arrived....he looks good in white.

Pity his preferred colour is black.

Didn't he turn them down??
So take your wum elsewhere thank you....

I think he means Wasps GF

Why is England's training camp at sea level when their first two tests are at altitude ?

Vunipola is scared of heights.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think he means Wasps GF

AAhhhhh yes

munkian wrote:Why is England's training camp at sea level when their first two tests are at altitude ?

Probably because there is a theory that to perform well at altitude you need to be there longer than the time England have available.

The "Smash and Grab" theory suggests that if you do not have that time available you should fly straight in, play then leave right away as performance levels will drop the longer you are there.

Telegraph and Sky Sports are reporting that Launchbury is a doubt. Simmonds was assessed before joining team training, while Shields and Vunipola took full parts in training.

Launchbury reportedly has a calf niggle so is still under assessment. Should he not make it, would you go with Isiekwe for a club combo with Itoje and George, despite the fact that he's been playing 6? Or go with Hill who has been playing well at lock?

Not something I would expect to say, but feels like Bruce Craig has a point.

Yet another player injured during training.