England Summer Tour - Part 2

First topic message reminder :

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I just don't get the point in the Cipriani experiment...and I don't get why Robson was taken.

Eddie Jones just baffles me. What is actually going on in his head. Whats his plans with people like this..and Mark Wilson?? etc. Why does he manage people like this.

Pick them for tours then not even look at them again until another meaningless tour needs some bodies to fill the squad.

At least Cipriani is getting a start. I was wondering if Eddie only took him on tour to stop him signing a big money contract overseas. It does seem strange that Robson has not had even a sniff, especially with Danny-boy starting this test. Supposedly the weather is meant to be wet and windy tomorrow so maybe Jones thinks the Wasp's game is not tight enough?

Wilson has at least added marginally to his tally of caps - but Jones does seem to view him as an inferior alternative to Robshaw.

I agree that's how he probably does see him, and probably a large majority of England fans aswell. However in that case why bother taking him. Why not take the young potential in both Curry's to see if they can eclipse Robshaw. Why has Simmonds not even had a minute on the pitch.
Why is Mercer not getting games.
Why take Ben Earl??


His whole management just confuses me a lot.

England are playing Farrell at 12 because there are no obvious alternatives (which would push Farrell back to 10). And I suppose with 9 real internationals before the RWC preparation/practice matches, we won't find one magically appearing. I still wonder what happens if Farrell gets injured. Who you think slots in at 12?

LondonTiger wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Flanker options would suggest Jones no longer needs to field a lock at blindside, and yet I'm not convinced he has entirely ditched this approach. After all, Isiekwe started the first Test. If Jones has Kruis, Lawes, Itoje and Launcbury all available, then it's entirely possible he'll try it again, and hope that Curry can add something to the back row mix which Robshaw couldn't at seven.

As a second row though.

I won't try to sound clever, I'd forgotten that.

In a desperate attempt to rescue the original point, Jones preferred Isiekwe, who had mostly played on the flank for Saracens, to a straight lock prospect in Hill. Also, before Launchbury recovered, it was widely reported that Shields would start in the second row for the Test 2. I don't think Jones has completely jetttisoned the idea of playing a lock candidate on the flank, although he may not do so with Robshaw on the open side.

Surely we need to avoid any talk of Manu coming back for the moment. Better off planning with the lower grade version T'eo.

I think if Manu really comes back fit and firing at a level close to where he was years ago, it will be (1) a miracle, and (2) a great, unexpected bonus.

An article on Stuff.co.UK about how the AB's are prioritising pummelling Eng over Irl come Nov.....
Really, and I'm not happy to say this, but unless the Ab's manage to break themselves in considerable numbers, I can't see how well compete with them.
Their approach to player welfare is top of a long list of crucial factors that basically places them 20+ points above us in 9 out of 10 game's well play.
You will get the once a decade Twickenham win however this can be discounted.

They are incredibly focused on England over here in the media. Don't presume that transcends into the actual National Team though.

The media can't stop talking about England as they hate Eddie and have a complex over us. The ABs have neither of these things he, they'll be looking to clean sweep the autumn and smash all teams, especially Ireland and then England.

They'll look for it certainly. Think they'll probably come up short against a couple of teams though. Retallick and read will be back though and they'll improve them by a good distance. Should be a good set of games.

No 7&1/2 wrote:They'll look for it certainly.  Think they'll probably come up short against a couple of teams though. Retallick and read will be back though and they'll improve them by a good distance. Should be a good set of games.

Let me guess, one of those teams being England ?

I think england ireland scotland and wales are all capable of beating them.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think england ireland scotland and wales are all capable of beating them.

Ireland...maybe.

Ireland definitely. As well as the other 3. Don't be too dispirited wales aren't as bad as you think.

kingelderfield wrote:An article on Stuff.co.UK about how the AB's are prioritising pummelling Eng over Irl come Nov.....

Ah, heck, boys: I want to pummel England too. And I am English.
So I am into masochism?
The definition of an England rugby supporter?

Ultimately, I don't care what the ABs or anyone else wants to do. Let's worry about ourselves, play some Rugby, shake the pillars of heaven, have beer.

doctor_grey wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:An article on Stuff.co.UK about how the AB's are prioritising pummelling Eng over Irl come Nov.....

Ah, heck, boys:  I want to pummel England too.  And I am English.  
So I am into masochism?  
The definition of an England rugby supporter?

Ultimately, I don't care what the ABs or anyone else wants to do.  Let's worry about ourselves, play some Rugby, shake the pillars of heaven, have beer.

You can do that if you win

Good call DG. That's some descriptive vision you've got there.
Chariots of fire....me old Blakey!

I get no excitement in the All blacks...nor the utterly boring and overused Haka.

I have far more interest and excitment in the Aussies and the South Africans coming over for a test.

Yea definitely. I like watching the ABs, and some of their games against the other SH teams have been brilliant. But when England play it's more exciting watching them against SA or Oz or someone

Surely every Internationally selected rugby pro wants the opportunity to face the challenge of the worlds greatest rugby team? Even if the Haka appears sometimes contrived and parlous, which I've always taken as a bell weather as to how good an AB side is taking the field.
Anyways, like the finger fiddling Sarries fans doing their magic kick trick, I hope I can inspire our players to get the r&r they all desperately need before it all starts again.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I get no excitement in the All blacks...nor the utterly boring and overused Haka.

I have far more interest and excitment in the Aussies and the South Africans coming over for a test.

Mutual with England, a side who's greatest ever back is a goalkicking defender. Pure excitement over the decades for sure...

Oh, c'mon lads, let's not start banging on each other, or especially Saint Jonny. He wasn't just a Rugby player, he was a god...……..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_mLbOP2oTA

On the other hand, even if some people find the Haka a bit overdone, I think if people find it hard to enjoy watching the All Blacks play, they could be one of the following:
a front row player from anywhere in England (too much of running and stuff)
Jabba The Hutt
a luddite
a Tory
Jeremy Corbyn
Australian
a member of the Trump administration
from Corby (you had to have been there to understand)
Kim Jong-un

Taylorman wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I get no excitement in the All blacks...nor the utterly boring and overused Haka.

I have far more interest and excitment in the Aussies and the South Africans coming over for a test.

Mutual with England, a side who's greatest ever back is a goalkicking defender. Pure excitement over the decades for sure...

I wouldn't call Dusty Hare England's greatest ever back Taylorman, we have had a few better than him, Robinson was pretty hot, Lewsey was vastly underestimated, by Matt Rodgers in particular, Rory underwood as a bit special in his day as was David Duckham.

We have had some pretty good outside halfs as well, Rob Andrew was the first outside half that knew how to tackle and of course JW re-defined the mould for outside halves both in attack and defences. Pretty good goalkicker as well. Few other 10's could compare with him in attack in Woodward's early reign, unfortunately the rest of the main players were somewhat older than him which resulted in Woodward playing 10 man rugby for the 2002 -2004 period. Previous to that, England had cut sides apart in attack. Oh, did I mention that he was probably the "Carling (beer) defending 10 at that level as well.

Funny, I don’t remember Jeremy Guscott ever kicking a place kick. Or making a tackle for that matter... you must be talking about Adrian Stoop.

But joking aside, Wilkinson wasn’t even the best back in the 2003 backline. He was the one the media focused on, because he scored the points [1]. But Greenwood was the better player [2]. In the years since, England have found tolerable replacements for pretty much all the 2003 players except Greenwood and Back.

[1] And he did kick a lot of them. Though as Martin Johnson once explained, “it’s not us that’s giving away the kickable penalties”. When you have a goal kicker who can punish penalties from the half way line, it’s really down to the opposition to decide whether they want to give away the near-certainty of 3 points or risk giving away 7. Clearly many teams were scared enough of England’s attack that the former was seen as preferable. As Ireland learned in 2003, if you let the England of 2003 play, they could tear you apart.

[2] As he pointed out, he’s England’s highest try scoring centre. When some wag suggested that his tries were mostly created by Wilkinson, his response was “But who do you think called them?”

Poorfour wrote:Funny, I don’t remember Jeremy Guscott ever kicking a place kick. Or making a tackle for that matter... you must be talking about Adrian Stoop.

But joking aside, Wilkinson wasn’t even the best back in the 2003 backline. He was the one the media focused on, because he scored the points [1]. But Greenwood was the better player [2]. In the years since, England have found tolerable replacements for pretty much all the 2003 players except Greenwood and Back.

[1] And he did kick a lot of them. Though as Martin Johnson once explained, “it’s not us that’s giving away the kickable penalties”. When you have a goal kicker who can punish penalties from the half way line, it’s really down to the opposition to decide whether they want to give away the near-certainty of 3 points or risk giving away 7. Clearly many teams were scared enough of England’s attack that the former was seen as preferable. As Ireland learned in 2003, if you let the England of 2003 play, they could tear you apart.

[2] As he pointed out, he’s England’s highest try scoring centre. When some wag suggested that his tries were mostly created by Wilkinson, his response was “But who do you think called them?”

I remember that. I'd say the England team peaked in that match and there was nothing Ireland could do about it. They won the world cup while not playing their best.

profitius wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Funny, I don’t remember Jeremy Guscott ever kicking a place kick. Or making a tackle for that matter... you must be talking about Adrian Stoop.

But joking aside, Wilkinson wasn’t even the best back in the 2003 backline. He was the one the media focused on, because he scored the points [1]. But Greenwood was the better player [2]. In the years since, England have found tolerable replacements for pretty much all the 2003 players except Greenwood and Back.

[1] And he did kick a lot of them. Though as Martin Johnson once explained, “it’s not us that’s giving away the kickable penalties”. When you have a goal kicker who can punish penalties from the half way line, it’s really down to the opposition to decide whether they want to give away the near-certainty of 3 points or risk giving away 7. Clearly many teams were scared enough of England’s attack that the former was seen as preferable. As Ireland learned in 2003, if you let the England of 2003 play, they could tear you apart.

[2] As he pointed out, he’s England’s highest try scoring centre. When some wag suggested that his tries were mostly created by Wilkinson, his response was “But who do you think called them?”

I remember that.  I'd say the England team peaked in that match and there was nothing Ireland could do about it. They won the world cup while not playing their best.

Lot's of stuff I agree with.  Herewith:
The media focused on Jonny for a number of reasons:  He was simply better than all other 10s at that time.  Full stop.  And that comes from a big Stephen Larkham fan.  Plus, he played as hard as anyone in any position on attack and defense, tackled like a flanker, played hurt, gave everything, inspirational and a roll model.  He was smart and made the right calls, as you quote Greenwood saying.  But also because he was a good looking kid who was great with the media.  And frankly, because he was an English hero, which is where a lot of the Rugby media was, and is.  
<<To show how things have moved on, this morning when I was watching that video I posted with Jonny scoring against the ABs, my 18 year old daughter watched with me and said "wow, he WAS cute"!  Was, Katie?  Was?  Cripe, mates, we are getting older, that was 15 years ago>>
Here it is again, simply because it was orgasmic:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_mLbOP2oTA

There are no doubts England have never found a replacement for Greenwood (Jamie Noon!).  Or even close. Farrell may be a real good 10, but he ain't no Greenwood.  And, if we want to be honest, he ain't no 12 at all.  But, in the absence of viable options at 12, what to do?   Though your friendly doctor does have the prescription...….

But if you watch that short joyous video there are all kinds of good things:  Hitting rucks hard and low including a Richard hill special, the team in position prepared for what ever was to come next (vision),  quick ball.  Only thing the current squad could replicate would be Simpson-Daniel's run which looks like a Johnny May special (which also shows what Simpson-Daniel could/should have been if not for injuries).  

I am now wistful and sentimental for the rest of the day.

doctor_grey wrote:Oh, c'mon lads, let's not start banging on each other, or especially Saint Jonny.  He wasn't just a Rugby player, he was a god...……..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_mLbOP2oTA

On the other hand, even if some people find the Haka a bit overdone, I think if people find it hard to enjoy watching the All Blacks play, they could be one of the following:
a front row player from anywhere in England (too much of running and stuff)
Jabba The Hutt
a luddite
a Tory
Jeremy Corbyn
Australian
a member of the Trump administration
from Corby (you had to have been there to understand)
Kim Jong-un

Now you can bash the Tories, Trump and Kim all you like but not our Jezza.

I like the Haka, great bit if theatre.

As for Johnny, well, what made him a legend in my eyes was just how great he was at winning. He is still the most flexible flyhalf I've ever seen. We often talk about adjusting how the team plays to suit the flyhalf or changing the playmaker to suit the tactics of the team. Not Johnny, he was as excellent controlling things from ten man rugby as he was opening up the opposition with running rugby. Toulon signed a lot of big names but he was the crucial one, his ability to adapt the play of those around him to the challenge that faced them was exceptional. Had injuries not blighted his career he'd have an even bigger collection of silverware (he won pretty much everything anyway).

It's a funny thing about Jonny:  He won almost everything that was in front of him to win.  Yet, any discussion about his career always comes back to the 'what ifs' about his horrible injury run and the 'what could have beens'.  He demonstrated more dedication and more pure iron will to get back to a very high level.  I can't think of any athlete in any sport who went through more and I was very happy for him to go out the way he did.  It's a shame it was in France, but it probably could not have worked anywhere else.

My old man always got frustrated with many of the discussions about Jonny.  When Jonny was playing in France, he said, and I think he was right: "It's so simple.  Jonny is the rarest breed of all.  He is a winner."

doctor_grey wrote:It's a funny thing about Jonny:  He won almost everything that was in front of him to win.  Yet, any discussion about his career always comes back to the 'what ifs' about his horrible injury run and the 'what could have beens'.  He demonstrated more dedication and more pure iron will to get back to a very high level.  I can't think of any athlete in any sport who went through more and I was very happy for him to go out the way he did.  It's a shame it was in France, but it probably could not have worked anywhere else.

My old man always got frustrated with many of the discussions about Jonny.  When Jonny was playing in France, he said, and I think he was right: "It's so simple.  Jonny is the rarest breed of all.  He is a winner."

His time in France is very interesting, in that he played in a team full of a great deal of talent from around the world, but he seemed to be the thing that glued them all together and turned them into a team rather than a group of highly skilled individuals. He had that kind of presence that was out of all proportion to his then abilities.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I get no excitement in the All blacks...nor the utterly boring and overused Haka.

I have far more interest and excitment in the Aussies and the South Africans coming over for a test.

Heres one more for you, since you love them so much

https://youtu.be/zP_LSAD8N8A

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Oh, c'mon lads, let's not start banging on each other, or especially Saint Jonny.  He wasn't just a Rugby player, he was a god...……..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_mLbOP2oTA

On the other hand, even if some people find the Haka a bit overdone, I think if people find it hard to enjoy watching the All Blacks play, they could be one of the following:
a front row player from anywhere in England (too much of running and stuff)
Jabba The Hutt
a luddite
a Tory
Jeremy Corbyn
Australian
a member of the Trump administration
from Corby (you had to have been there to understand)
Kim Jong-un

Now you can bash the Tories, Trump and Kim all you like but not our Jezza.

I like the Haka, great bit if theatre.

As for Johnny, well, what made him a legend in my eyes was just how great he was at winning. He is still the most flexible flyhalf I've ever seen. We often talk about adjusting how the team plays to suit the flyhalf or changing the playmaker to suit the tactics of the team. Not Johnny, he was as excellent controlling things from ten man rugby as he was opening up the opposition with running rugby. Toulon signed a lot of big names but he was the crucial one, his ability to adapt the play of those around him to the challenge that faced them was exceptional. Had injuries not blighted his career he'd have an even bigger collection of silverware (he won pretty much everything anyway).

I used to Sam, it was great to watch. Now however it just seems that everyman and their dog are doing it, its just so over exposed its almost cringe worthy now.

Taylorman wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I get no excitement in the All blacks...nor the utterly boring and overused Haka.

I have far more interest and excitment in the Aussies and the South Africans coming over for a test.

Mutual with England, a side who's greatest ever back is a goalkicking defender. Pure excitement over the decades for sure...

I hope everyone elses response to that comment will clear everything up

GeordieFalcon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Oh, c'mon lads, let's not start banging on each other, or especially Saint Jonny.  He wasn't just a Rugby player, he was a god...……..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_mLbOP2oTA

On the other hand, even if some people find the Haka a bit overdone, I think if people find it hard to enjoy watching the All Blacks play, they could be one of the following:
a front row player from anywhere in England (too much of running and stuff)
Jabba The Hutt
a luddite
a Tory
Jeremy Corbyn
Australian
a member of the Trump administration
from Corby (you had to have been there to understand)
Kim Jong-un

Now you can bash the Tories, Trump and Kim all you like but not our Jezza.

I like the Haka, great bit if theatre.

As for Johnny, well, what made him a legend in my eyes was just how great he was at winning. He is still the most flexible flyhalf I've ever seen. We often talk about adjusting how the team plays to suit the flyhalf or changing the playmaker to suit the tactics of the team. Not Johnny, he was as excellent controlling things from ten man rugby as he was opening up the opposition with running rugby. Toulon signed a lot of big names but he was the crucial one, his ability to adapt the play of those around him to the challenge that faced them was exceptional. Had injuries not blighted his career he'd have an even bigger collection of silverware (he won pretty much everything anyway).

I used to Sam, it was great to watch. Now however it just seems that everyman and their dog are doing it, its just so over exposed its almost cringe worthy now.

Agreed when those dinner ladies did it on the last Lions tour that was a step too far for me - bored with it now to be honest

Going back to England's problem at 12, we do have one player who has the potential to fill that role and be the best of both worlds, great distributor, around 108-110kg, quite quick and an enormous boot as well. Despite all the undoubted talents, he has failed to kick on over the last season or so. Possibly due to being too much of a utility player and covering 3 positions at various times of the year.

New management may settle him down and let him progress and enable him to work on his undoubted weak areas which are mainly technical, he has the potential to be something special.

Captained the England U20's to a JRWC win a couple of years ago; player of the tournament playing out of position, so has leadership qualities.







Who am I talking about...………………...Prince Harry of course.

Lets hope so WPI, He has been talked about a lot. He has one hell of a coach in charge of him now...so if he doesn't progress now I don't think he will.

The one that still annoys me is Twelvetrees.

He just seemed made for that 12 spot.. he has the lot...yet couldnt seem to put it all together at an international level.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Agreed when those dinner ladies did it on the last Lions tour that was a step too far for me - bored with it now to be honest

Funny you should say that as I'm pretty bored with Lions tours. There was a time when rugby was amateur and players were accountants or doctors or brick layers etc and going to Africa to shoot elephants for a lark was maybe a good idea of for the time that was.
But a grown man going around with a Lion mascot on a bus full of Professional rugby players pretending they need more time away from their wives/kids/girlfriends to slap each others butts with towels by a poolside............................... hmmmmmm

If the Haka should go then I think the Lions should quit their caper too. It's downright embarrassing to think you need a collection of Four International sides to go attempt a job one Professional International side should be capable of on its own.

FLY, you CAD!!!! Never question the Revered British and Irish Lions!!!!!!

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I get no excitement in the All blacks...nor the utterly boring and overused Haka.

I have far more interest and excitment in the Aussies and the South Africans coming over for a test.

Mutual with England, a side who's greatest ever back is a goalkicking defender. Pure excitement over the decades for sure...

I hope everyone elses response to that comment will clear everything up

Yep, sure did, pretty much confirmed it.

hhmmm

You will rarely change anyone's preconceptions & prejudices on an Internet forum.

Very true LT...

Taylorman wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I get no excitement in the All blacks...nor the utterly boring and overused Haka.

I have far more interest and excitment in the Aussies and the South Africans coming over for a test.

Heres one more for you, since you love them so much

https://youtu.be/zP_LSAD8N8A

This is fantastic. Really great.

LondonTiger wrote:You will rarely change anyone's preconceptions & prejudices on an Internet forum.

I've never believed that really, LT.
....until now. You've changed my mind.

SecretFly wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:You will rarely change anyone's preconceptions & prejudices on an Internet forum.

I've never believed that really, LT.
....until now.  You've changed my mind.

Hmm. My puny brain is starting to spin.

LondonTiger wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:You will rarely change anyone's preconceptions & prejudices on an Internet forum.

I've never believed that really, LT.
....until now.  You've changed my mind.

Hmm. My puny brain is starting to spin.

I think that is all part of Fly's master plan. He is a cunning and devious one.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think england ireland scotland and wales are all capable of beating them.

England I’ll have some of what you’re having.

Taylorman wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I get no excitement in the All blacks...nor the utterly boring and overused Haka.

I have far more interest and excitment in the Aussies and the South Africans coming over for a test.

Heres one more for you, since you love them so much

https://youtu.be/zP_LSAD8N8A

That was good to watch.

Do you know if schools have always done the haka like that, or did it once used to be more like the old All Black one from the 70s, before Wayne Shelford et al helped turn it into the one we know today?

You're right again mikey. Well just stick to beating wales.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Can't help it lt.

Get a hotel room............

doctor_grey wrote:Get a hotel room............

Preferably a sound proofed one

It will be a novel issue if England have all their players fit and available. With Ashton returning and if Manu and T'eo are fit then selection will be a challenge for sure. Manu is a 13 and not a 12 so changing the 2 fly halves at 10 and 12 will take some doing. Plenty of options out wide as well.

Maybe:
Youngs
Cips
May
Farrell
Manu
Daly
Brown

For all of us who wanted to see Daly or Watson tried at 15 I have not seen anything so far to suggest they are better bets for the RWC. May has earned his spot and Daly is too good an all round player to leave out. Harsh on Watson and Nowell, but nice to have options. T'eo 2nd choice 13 with JJ as 3rd and Slade 4th.

Plus has anyone tried the Amazon Prime doc on the All Blacks? I found it very boring and gave up. Unlike the other series on NFL teams it gives no insight to team chats etc.

hugehandoff wrote:It will be a novel issue if England have all their players fit and available. With Ashton returning and if Manu and T'eo are fit then selection will be a challenge for sure. Manu is a 13 and not a 12 so changing the 2 fly halves at 10 and 12 will take some doing. Plenty of options out wide as well.

Maybe:
Youngs
Cips
May
Farrell
Manu
Daly
Brown

For all of us who wanted to see Daly or Watson tried at 15 I have not seen anything so far to suggest they are better bets for the RWC. May has earned his spot and Daly is too good an all round player to leave out. Harsh on Watson and Nowell, but nice to have options. T'eo 2nd choice 13 with JJ as 3rd and Slade 4th.

Plus has anyone tried the Amazon Prime doc on the All Blacks? I found it very boring and gave up. Unlike the other series on NFL teams it gives no insight to team chats etc.  

I didn't think Daly did too bad in SA, two matches at altitude where the ball carries further than at sea level and on rock hard pitches where the bounce is accentuated, he is the future and needs to have that kind of experience to progress. The stats show that SA are much better at altitude and I do not think that that is purely down to the thinner air; the way the ball flies and bounces is very different to that at lower levels and needs some getting used to.

I would persevere with him for the AIs to see what he can do in "normal" conditions. As well as Brown played I still think a back three of Daly, May and Watson, with Ashton possible as well is the way to go, Brown is always going to struggle for pace against fast wingers as was shown in both the Barbarians and SA tests.