The End of the AI's?

by yappysnap Mon 24 Sep 2018, 3:15 am

World Rugby are looking at ending the AI's after this year, and in its place running a 12 team comp that alternates between NH and SH locations.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12130530

Sounds odd to me

by Irish Londoner Mon 24 Sep 2018, 10:40 am

Rather seems to replicate the RWC ? Also the practicalities of playing in the NH and SH in alternate years would seem problematic - does it run during the AI period in the north but in the early summer (pre-season ?) in the south ?
Only way I can see this working would be to have a global season but any move to summer rugby in the NH would (IMHO) be a non-starter.

by cb Mon 24 Sep 2018, 12:07 pm

Seems a very crazy idea. For one thing the AI's are very entertaining, and not being part of any tournament makes it more relaxing - just a series of one on one.

From an English perspective, Twickenham usually has 3 or 4 sellouts which must generate a lot of money (whereas in some years the 6N's would only have 2 games at home).

A mini RWC does not seem very enticing.

by marty2086 Mon 24 Sep 2018, 12:11 pm

cb wrote:
From an English perspective, Twickenham usually has 3 or 4 sellouts which must generate a lot of money (whereas in some years the 6N's would only have 2 games at home).

I suppose it may depend on how the finances are structured but if it's just during the AIs and not the summer it seems like they are trying to drive money to the SH

by **LondonTiger** Mon 24 Sep 2018, 12:30 pm

It should have to mean the end of the June Internationals too, otherwise yes with this November tournament alternating between hemispheres it would appear that money would be being diverted from North to South.

It should also be noted that having this tournament in November would completely screw over the NH club scene every season.

Final thought - surely something like this would diminish the status of the World Cup.

by Brendan Mon 24 Sep 2018, 12:49 pm

How does this help the lower teams

12 teams would be 10 teams (RC & 6N) and winner of B6N (Georgia) & PNC (Fiji) as these are the 2 second Tier teams. Can't see that growing the game. If you don't include the winners of the second euro winner then all talk of including Georgia in the 6N should be scrapped.

If it is to suck money out of Europe then have the 6 Nations played over two legs and fit it into March and AI. Why should the European union's have to fund the South without things in return. All the 3 Celtic unions took on massive debt to fund their stadiums and less extent professional teams. Now that they have sorted things out the South want a hand out.

Build Europen and have the B6N have a fulltime professional squad that are included in the European club competitions. Money much better spent from a European point of view.

by HongKongCherry Mon 24 Sep 2018, 1:34 pm

It will never happen. The SH may have the best teams, but the money is generated in the NH. Why would the likes of England choose to move from a yearly pay day to every other year? Given the match day fees the ABs demand, I'd be surprised if they were willing to walk away from the tour money too.

by SecretFly Mon 24 Sep 2018, 1:37 pm

cb wrote:Seems a very crazy idea. For one thing the AI's are very entertaining, and not being part of any tournament makes it more relaxing - just a series of one on one.

Yep, that would be my opinion on the whole thing. I'm so tried of everything being turned into Leagues/Championships etc. It is so refreshing to just have a series of 'friendlies' - one on one battles....no tactics, no strategy, no resting the best to make some inroads later....just a boxing match - a one off battle. Beautiful concept being eroded and eroded by the 'League/Championship' fanatics.

by **Rugby Fan** Mon 24 Sep 2018, 3:47 pm

It doesn't look like a good idea. However, being unpopular with supporters has never stopped developments in our sport.

The driving force is always money. Everyone acknowledges there's too much rugby but the only way to get anyone to change is to offer an alternative capable of producing equivalent revenue. This sounds like a plan cooked up to get more broadcasting revenue than the total available for the November/June fixtures.

There's not a lot of money in Fiji vs Tonga. If the same fixture is part of a league, then it gets more money because it's sold as a part of a package deal.

by NonReturnableBottle2 Mon 24 Sep 2018, 3:59 pm

Have to agree with "too much rugby". If the NH summer tours continue, then we could potentially go from 3 (or max 4 as in this year) AI to 5. If summer tour is binned, may claw 2 back, but can't see the SH unions dropping 3 games a year to get a tourney every other year. Even more so if different countries host it as the article says. Does that mean it swaps like the Lions but adding Argentina and Pacific Islands. That would mean each country hosts once every 12 years instead of tours yearly (Summer & AI)????? No way!

by Irish Londoner Mon 24 Sep 2018, 5:13 pm

HongKongCherry wrote:It will never happen. The SH may have the best teams, but the money is generated in the NH. Why would the likes of England choose to move from a yearly pay day to every other year? Given the match day fees the ABs demand, I'd be surprised if they were willing to walk away from the tour money too.

On that point, if this happens (as a WR sanctioned tournament) would the AB's lose their match fees ? No one has to pay for playing them in the World Cup. I can sort of see the potential moneywise for an intercontinental club competition like there is in Rugby League - Saracens V Crusaders, Leinster V Sharks, etc. but other than as a diluted RWC there's no potential in this at all.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 24 Sep 2018, 5:54 pm

NonReturnableBottle2 wrote:Have to agree with "too much rugby". If the NH summer tours continue, then we could potentially go from 3 (or max 4 as in this year) AI to 5. If summer tour is binned, may claw 2 back, but can't see the SH unions dropping 3 games a year to get a tourney every other year. Even more so if different countries host it as the article says. Does that mean it swaps like the Lions but adding Argentina and Pacific Islands. That would mean each country hosts once every 12 years instead of tours yearly (Summer & AI)????? No way!

Article says different countries host pools, so multiple countries each year.

Whichever way you cut it, looks like a crappy idea to me.

by NonReturnableBottle2 Mon 24 Sep 2018, 6:07 pm

Thanks for clarifying LT, been reading for ages but rarely posted. Will learn to read better b4 spouting opinions! Although some of the stuff I've read!!!!!

by Brendan Mon 24 Sep 2018, 6:27 pm

If they do as the legue nations in soccer I hope they don't intend on putting the top 3 in one group.

Doing the top 12 from the previous WC would also cause problems

by Brendan Wed 26 Sep 2018, 10:20 am

So seems it will the top 12 which would exclude Italy.

Because of how the rankings work Italy play 3/4 of their games against higher teams. Georgia is higher because they play 3/4 of their games against lower teams. Hence why Italy always finish third in their WC group

by Brendan Wed 26 Sep 2018, 10:29 am

Also who wants to talk about attendances. Are they hoping that like the AUS V IRE series that ex-pats will show up and boost the numbers

If Aus get terrible numbers for games in the RC what hope would a SA V Italy game get there.

At least with SA you could get a PRO14 game on the Friday and international Saturday so Kings v Glasgow, Cheeahs v Edinburgh with Scotland v Argentina.

by Irish Londoner Wed 26 Sep 2018, 11:13 am

Apart from bailing out the SANZAR finances (which appears to be the only motivation for anything WR propose) what are the actual benefits of this proposal?
Per The Guardian, the RFU are "perplexed" about this proposal as it appears to have been sprung on them without any warning.

by whocares Fri 28 Sep 2018, 8:29 am

That article is not clear because the whole idea would be to replace both June and November tours by this new tournament. Scraping June tour at least make sense from a French POV so am not against it.

by **LondonTiger** Fri 28 Sep 2018, 9:38 am

It seems having read more details that the June and November tours would indeed be replaced by this new competition, which would be held alternately in NH (November) and SH (July). While this could fit quite easily with the SH season, it would seriously impact on the current NH structure.

by Brendan Fri 28 Sep 2018, 10:42 am

The real issue I have is the NH unions lose money while the SH get a bit more.

As it is the Lions and and NH fees are keeping NZ afloat while the July tests is probably breakeven and SR losing money.

If WC is used every year by the SH losing money, how will this fix it

by lostinwales Fri 28 Sep 2018, 10:56 am

It feels a little bit like that standard political exercise of pushing an idea that is 'not quite' reasonable in order to provoke a reaction which will justify pushing a much harder idea whilst holding a moral high ground.

by SecretFly Fri 28 Sep 2018, 11:10 am

lostinwales wrote:It feels a little bit like that standard political exercise of pushing an idea that is 'not quite' reasonable in order to provoke a reaction which will justify pushing a much harder idea whilst holding a moral high ground.

We agree!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yahoo

by quinsforever Fri 28 Sep 2018, 11:13 pm

ah the old club vs country debate.

do turkeys vote for xmas? france and england will obviously nix this idea. particuarly as everyone recently agreed a new calendar in San Fran.

suspect NZ would also not be fans

by **Rugby Fan** Sat 29 Sep 2018, 12:14 pm

I get frustrated that it seems as if we are always treating parts of the problem with our sport rather than the whole. Dealing with one part in isolation creates knock-on effects which tend to complicate other areas. This seems like a perfect example.

by SecretFly Sat 29 Sep 2018, 8:50 pm

Big world Rugby Fan.... not everyone is going to agree either on a united way forward or what a ref should be looking for and what he should be letting go. Problems for some aren't problems for others.

And I think that's the best way to have it too. Much too much 'unifying' of Global activity in every walk of life including sport. It's an artificial construct and it's actually killing diversity not enhancing it.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 30 Sep 2018, 10:44 am

SecretFly wrote:Much too much 'unifying' of Global activity in every walk of life including sport. It's an artificial construct and it's actually killing diversity not enhancing it.

I'm in favour of diversity too. Rugby isn't a one-size fits all sport because it plays different roles in different contexts across the world.

However, I would like that explicitly recognized. Only a short time ago, executives from World Rugby were expressing disappointment that more leading players don't take part in the Olympic sevens, which they see as an important showcase. Every iteration of this new Test match plan that I've seen would make it even harder - probably impossible - for that to happen.

by **profitius** Sun 30 Sep 2018, 3:24 pm

I'm in favour of real diversity. You know the sort where every culture is different. You go to Germany and experience German culture, France to experience French culture etc. I don't want to go to India and eat in McDonald's or drink in Starbucks. I'd rather have Delhi belly.

There's nothing worse than globalists wanting to centralise everything.

by munkian Tue 02 Oct 2018, 8:54 am

Its an attempted money grab by the SH teams, absolute rubbish.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 02 Oct 2018, 9:29 am

From the Times:

As discussed in this space last week, the high table of World Rugby administrators has been in Sydney examining ways to relaunch the international game with a new, exciting competition model. There is vast room for improvement in the structure of the world game, but so intricately intertwined are all the strands of the professional game that I struggle to see a way to unpick it and give it anything much more than some rebranding and a new lick of paint.

Here is why it might be hard: two of the priorities in the professional game are 1) player welfare, and 2) helping tier-two nations.

When World Rugby chiefs met for a “future of the game” assembly in San Francisco 20 months ago, the RFU argued that there should be no more tours in years after World Cups. That was a player-welfare argument, but the other nations voted it down.

As a compromise, the RFU lobbied to tour only tier-two nations in post-World Cup summers. That is why England are pencilled in to tour Japan in 2020 and the United States in 2024. This would allow almost all the frontline England players to be rested. It is a solution that, therefore, achieves the two priorities.

Is World Rugby now to redraw the picture and cancel these tier-two tours? Are we now to sanction competitive post-World Cup summers for the very England players who need rest? Is the RFU really going to vote for that?

by Irish Londoner Tue 02 Oct 2018, 10:10 am

I think the tier two tour is a great idea. Who's going to Australia in 2020 ?

by LordDowlais Wed 10 Oct 2018, 4:49 pm

I have just been reading this on other media streams. I find it quite concerning.

Is it me, or does this sound like SH unions casting their eyes north and wanting a piece of the NH pie whilst making no sacrifices what so ever ?

Fine, they want more money, who doesn't ? But if they want a share of the money generated up here, then perhaps they give as well. They should structure their season to align with ours. Then we can negotiate.

Also, what happens to the tier two nations ? don't they get a chance to make more money from the NH ?

Also, if I am reading this right, it will alienate any team from the 6N who drop below the any team above them.

If we did this now, what would happen to Scotland and France ? Who would they play in the Autumn and Summer ? I do not think they would be happy playing the Tonga's and Canada's of this world, how much money would they stand to lose ?

This all stinks to high heaven if you ask me, and yet again World Rugby are bending over for the SH unions.

Yes they might have the best team. But the money is in the NH, and money talks. I am all for helping and sharing, but what are we getting back ?

by No 7&1/2 Wed 10 Oct 2018, 5:14 pm

It's the top 12 teams so would include scotland and france.

by LordDowlais Wed 10 Oct 2018, 5:30 pm

Yes sorry you are correct.

I misread where it said the top six sides, I did not read it properly, I thought it would just be the top six sides, not the top six from each hemisphere.

So as it stands all the following sides will play each other in some form:-

NEW ZEALAND
IRELAND
WALES
ENGLAND
SOUTH AFRICA
SCOTLAND
AUSTRALIA
FRANCE
ARGENTINA
FIJI
JAPAN
TONGA

Still the rest of my point still stands.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 10 Oct 2018, 5:47 pm

There are questions for world rugby to answer in terms of financing the game. Hard to see how the northern unions would want to share their gate receipts but without aus nz etc they'll lose out anyway, or some will. Not an easy solution.

by Taylorman Wed 10 Oct 2018, 7:38 pm

I quite like it. With the 6 N and RC doubling as the 12 thing, all you need to do is add the june tours in the same way as the AIs.

Fiji, Japan and Tonga though? Samoa should be in there if thats the case. AIs are a bit boring. End of season slugouts when our guys are stuffed.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 10 Oct 2018, 8:09 pm

Honestly not sure if you know Taylor but currently the June tours are end of season for the nh with the AIs end of season for sh.

by SecretFly Wed 10 Oct 2018, 8:27 pm

I only like some of her songs so won't be going to her tour.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 10 Oct 2018, 8:35 pm

Fit tho

by Taylorman Wed 10 Oct 2018, 9:10 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Honestly not sure if you know Taylor but currently the June tours are end of season for the nh with the AIs end of season for sh.

Yes but that doesnt concern me. NH sides will now have to cover a lot more ground where surely we will have to cut the RC to one match each as per the 6N then add the islands and japan in somewhere.

But then where do we play the top 4? Havent read the detail but at least it adds more interest than the AIs as one offs. Dont even know why we bother with them as fans.

by Doctor7 Mon 15 Oct 2018, 8:27 am

Gotta say. But I agree with LD on this.

It's about time the tail stopped wagging the dog.

Money is in the NH. IF the SH want a share, which I am not against, they play to our tune. First off, they align their season with ours.

by SecretFly Mon 15 Oct 2018, 9:24 am

Doctor7 wrote:Gotta say. But I agree with LD on this.

It's about time the tail stopped wagging the dog.

Money is in the NH. IF the SH want a share, which I am not against, they play to our tune. First off, they align their season with ours.

So a dictatorship?

Nice world we're living in.

by Doctor7 Mon 15 Oct 2018, 11:17 am

No not a dictatorship at all. Jeez, what is wrong with people on here ? As well, what is the story with all these red bars I see ? What is that bout ? How do you do it ?

The way I see it, the SH want more money, we have more, so we should share, but what are the SH unions going to do for us ?

Or are you in the, they can have and do whatever they like and the NH must follow suit camp ?

by No 7&1/2 Mon 15 Oct 2018, 11:27 am

The issues of finance are real.and a problem for wr. Looking more into this I'm not sure how this will work. Will profits be shared around unions equally after covering costs of hosting? Haven't seen that detail unless I've skipped over it.

by SecretFly Mon 15 Oct 2018, 11:37 am

Doctor7 wrote:No not a dictatorship at all. Jeez, what is wrong with people on here ? As well, what is the story with all these red bars I see ? What is that bout ? How do you do it ?

The way I see it, the SH want more money, we have more, so we should share, but what are the SH unions going to do for us ?

Or are you in the, they can have and do whatever they like and the NH must follow suit camp ?

You want to become a Red Bar Soldier?? So soon after joining up?

Oh well.................................... you see that plus and minus thing beside your name? Press the plus to give a comment a green light. Press the minus to get the red bar going.

Please don't become a Red Bar Soldier. This site is pretty good, there are only a few isolated Red Bar addicts here.

On your point. What have the SH done for us for decades? Given us games that not only give them money but also fill our stadiums, such was the quality of their rugby and the feverish desire of many NH sides to do what was quite often seen as the impossible, win one or two games against them.

by Doctor7 Mon 15 Oct 2018, 12:00 pm

SecretFly wrote:You want to become a Red Bar Soldier?? So soon after joining up?

No, I just wanted to know about them thats all. Also, I am experimenting with this quoting, so please bare with me.

SecretFly wrote:Oh well.................................... you see that plus and minus thing beside your name? Press the plus to give a comment a green light. Press the minus to get the red bar going.

Unfortunately I do not have that option, do you have to apply for it or something ?

SecretFly wrote:Please don't become a Red Bar Soldier. This site is pretty good, there are only a few isolated Red Bar addicts here.

Ah, that is what you call them on here. OK. I do not want to be one of those, I take it red is dislike, green is like ?

I have noticed LordDowlais get's a few. I do not know what for though, some of his posts are not even directed at anybody, but he still gets them, he must have a few enemies on here.

I have noticed he gets a few red bars whenever that riscagame member is about, is he one of those soldiers ?

by SecretFly Mon 15 Oct 2018, 12:03 pm

Correction. The plus and minus thing won't be beside Your name..... but it should be next to everyone else's name? I only every use the laptop to access this place..... maybe if you're using a phone it isn't there.

by Doctor7 Mon 15 Oct 2018, 12:04 pm

SecretFly wrote:On your point. What have the SH done for us for decades? Given us games that not only give them money but also fill our stadiums, such was the quality of their rugby and the feverish desire of many NH sides to do what was quite often seen as the impossible, win one or two games against them.

I have never seen any of the home nations have empty stadiums when they play each other, they also sell a lot of tickets for the so called lesser nations as well. I think we could manage without the 3 from the SH.

by Doctor7 Mon 15 Oct 2018, 12:05 pm

SecretFly wrote:Correction. The plus and minus thing won't be beside Your name..... but it should be next to everyone else's name? I only every use the laptop to access this place..... maybe if you're using a phone it isn't there.

I'm on a laptop.

To old for tablets and devices. Whistle

by SecretFly Mon 15 Oct 2018, 12:06 pm

Doctor7 wrote:

I have noticed LordDowlais get's a few. I do not know what for though, some of his posts are not even directed at anybody, but he still gets them, he must have a few enemies on here.

I have noticed he gets a few red bars whenever that riscagame member is about, is he one of those soldiers ?

Yeah...well, we don't know who does the red barring but yep, you can begin to add one and one sometimes and with some posters.

I've never red barred in my life. When it started I did some green bars (coz I like being nice Cool

) - I turned your bar from red to a nice green and red just coz I think someone is playing with you coz you're new Wink

by **LondonTiger** Mon 15 Oct 2018, 12:07 pm

Doctor7 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:You want to become a Red Bar Soldier?? So soon after joining up?

No, I just wanted to know about them thats all. Also, I am experimenting with this quoting, so please bare with me.

Top half. bottom half or the full monty?

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