The Shocking standard of the Pro14

First topic message reminder :

Having been watching it since it was the original Celtic league and looking at comments about it online in all those years it's fair to say it's the most controversial competition in world rugby. There are always problems popping up that it could do without. No exaggeration to say it has a way to go yet.


What I've noticed in the last few years is the standard of play. It has dramatically improved!!!


Starting off with Glasgow's rise to win the competition. Then we had Connacht coming from nowhere to win it. Then the Scarlets won it in style. Those teams won by playing attractive running rugby.


Then last year Leinster won again after they've become one of the best non international teams in the world. Also last year we had Benetton and Zebre getting their act together and become hard teams to beat, especially Benetton. Edinburgh have become a tough team to beat too, much improved from previous years.


The South Africans are weak but they've added something exotic to the league. Cheetahs do look weaker than last season (too early to judge) but Kings look improved so far. After 2 poor seasons the buzz is back in Connacht and Cardiff are showing good signs.


So all in all the standard has improved greatly. That's putting the pressure on other traditionally strong sides like Munster, Ospreys and Ulster, which is no harm.


The league isn't without problems which are constantly highlighted so I though I'd take a look at the big picture for a change.

LordDowlais wrote:The WRU pay for access to their players, that's what the NDC are. The club pays a % and the WRU pays a % for access.

Not true at all.

NDC players were contracted to the WRU.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Him and Phil tend to side step the questions which point out inconsistency.

The shameless irony of that post being written by you.

marty2086 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Him and Phil tend to side step the questions which point out inconsistency.

Sure Phyllis blocked me on Twitter when he demanded I produce evidence to back up what I said or else I was a liar, when I proceeded to say the same to him he called me childish and block me

I blocked you when you failed to acknowledge how wrong you were about the IRFU owning all of the player contracts. Remember? The very basic set up of Irish rugby that I schooled you on.

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Him and Phil tend to side step the questions which point out inconsistency.

Sure Phyllis blocked me on Twitter when he demanded I produce evidence to back up what I said or else I was a liar, when I proceeded to say the same to him he called me childish and block me

Maybe that's because you do things like call him "Phyllis"?  


You really are a dreadful poster

A bit like you and Phil coincidentally posting Martyn?

Does that then make you a dreadful poster?

Your twitter name is Martyn, ffs.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Money gets paid to Welsh players and to refs like owens by the wru does it not?

They do, all Test players get paid by the WRU and then you have the NDCs

No 7&1/2 wrote:Andy? Who's that, Lord? Side stepped question there then Phil. So all humans are biased you've said unconcious here so theyll always have that towards their own union.

Which is why they aren't allowed to referee their own union.

Understand now?

No 7&1/2 wrote:The an ology of he nhs is that you do a job you're paid to do which means holding people to account. It doesn't matter who your payslip comes from.

That's not an analogy because of the room for interpretation and bias.

As you were told, that's a dreadful attempt at an analogy.

Which question have I not answered Phil. May have missed it but i don't side step in general.

So even if you're paid by the league ylthe refs who will continue to be paid by the Unions will always favour those teams and players in your opinion. Thus doesn't make a difference at all.

You can't seem to accept that throughout the world people are employed to do jobs and act professionally. Why don't you follow another league, Welsh prem line lord and say you all the headaches?

No 7&1/2 wrote:You can't seem to accept that throughout the world people are employed to do jobs and act professionally. Why don't you follow another league, Welsh prem line lord and say you all the headaches?

If you accept the idea that Clancy can't referee the Irish national team, you'd be hard pressed to logically argue that he should referee an Irish domestic team.

The league recognises this, hence it's doing its best to overcome it.

Quite why the hell you can't see this is something you should be concerned about.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So even if you're paid by the league ylthe refs who will continue to be paid by the Unions will always favour those teams and players in your opinion. Thus doesn't make a difference at all.

No, they won't favour those teams so much because their organisational set up will be different. Their familiarity will be different. Their reporting lines will be different.

Christ alive, this is basic.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You can't seem to accept that throughout the world people are employed to do jobs and act professionally. Why don't you follow another league, Welsh prem line lord and say you all the headaches?

Hate to wade in here, but at the same time around the world people are NOT always trusted to do the job and act professionally so you have to set up independent bodies - e.g. independent complaints commissions; external/independent audit; external examiners; independent quality assurance bodies, etc.  They are all set up because if you have people internally doing those jobs then their involvement and bias means that their decisions could be swayed and their actions called into question.

I'm not saying this would happen in rugby, but just picking up on your analogy!

S to confirm Phil do you object to Clancey reffing purely as he's paid by the union and nothing to do with nationality?
But to your last point they are still paid by the same organisation; this is your defining point not reporting lines.

No 7&1/2 wrote:S to confirm Phil do you object to Clancey reffing purely as he's paid by the union and nothing to do with nationality?

When something is so badly interpreted as this, my only conclusion is to believe disingenuous behaviour. The only alternative to that belief is that the responder is an idiot.

Either way, what a waste of time.

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You can't seem to accept that throughout the world people are employed to do jobs and act professionally. Why don't you follow another league, Welsh prem line lord and say you all the headaches?

Hate to wade in here, but at the same time around the world people are NOT always trusted to do the job and act professionally so you have to set up independent bodies - e.g. independent complaints commissions; external/independent audit; external examiners; independent quality assurance bodies, etc.  They are all set up because if you have people internally doing those jobs then their involvement and bias means that their decisions could be swayed and their actions called into question.

I'm not saying this would happen in rugby, but just picking up on your analogy!

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You can't seem to accept that throughout the world people are employed to do jobs and act professionally. Why don't you follow another league, Welsh prem line lord and say you all the headaches?

Hate to wade in here, but at the same time around the world people are NOT always trusted to do the job and act professionally so you have to set up independent bodies - e.g. independent complaints commissions; external/independent audit; external examiners; independent quality assurance bodies, etc.  They are all set up because if you have people internally doing those jobs then their involvement and bias means that their decisions could be swayed and their actions called into question.

I'm not saying this would happen in rugby, but just picking up on your analogy!

And we have that in the Pro14, we have an independent boss and team who assign and evaluate their performances

So I mentioned earlier where I had sidestepped a question in the hope you'd point it out I'd answer it to your satisfaction Phil and you'd have the courtesy to stop dodging; no luck!
Simple question to you as believe me Phil you jump around so much it's hard to follow; do you only have an issue with employers or is nationality involved in that as well?

Cheers oracle so to apply that to rugby ditectly here the league does have an overview already to do just that.

Ah cheers marty.

More good news for the league. FIR is to become a full member of the Pro 14.

Oh that'll be very bad news for some folk!

Now they can't be thrown out!

F**k the FIR!

No 7&1/2 wrote:So I mentioned earlier where I had sidestepped a question in the hope you'd point it out I'd answer it to your satisfaction Phil and you'd have the courtesy to stop dodging; no luck!
Simple question to you as believe me Phil you jump around so much it's hard to follow; do you only have an issue with employers or is nationality involved in that as well?

Phil is a three-strikes-and-you're-out kinda guy.  If you put the same question to him three times without an answer, then his next move is usually going to ground for a few days or weeks.

"What question???  I never saw it.  I have more important places to be.  Prove that you asked the question?  What was the context? Where's the link?"

Phil is a wise ol' coot.

Okay, I'm going to ground for a month to pretend I never even posted this comment.....

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The WRU pay for access to their players, that's what the NDC are. The club pays a % and the WRU pays a % for access.

Not true at all.

NDC players were contracted to the WRU.

I’m sure WOL must’ve said that at one point, so I don’t know how it got missed.

marty2086 wrote:And we have that in the Pro14, we have an independent boss and team who assign and evaluate their performances

Not according to the idiot Bernard Jackman. He couldn’t be more annoyed with Greg Garner, whilst he (Jackman) was deflecting this week.

RiscaGame wrote:

marty2086 wrote:And we have that in the Pro14, we have an independent boss and team who assign and evaluate their performances

Not according to the idiot Bernard Jackman. He couldn’t be more annoyed with Greg Garner, whilst he (Jackman) was deflecting this week.

Is that when he called him brilliant?

Brendan wrote:More good news for the league.  FIR is to become a full member of the Pro 14.

A full member?

They will finally become a shareholder of Celtic Rugby DADC if they “meet certain conditions” i.e. pony up the monies they owe the existing shareholder unions that they’ve err...been late on for a few seasons.  

Good to see if it happens and SARU are hoping to do the same either this or next season, once decisions are made on the SR/SANZAAR shuffle and who’s going where in their Player Reduction & Draft programme.

marty2086 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You can't seem to accept that throughout the world people are employed to do jobs and act professionally. Why don't you follow another league, Welsh prem line lord and say you all the headaches?

Hate to wade in here, but at the same time around the world people are NOT always trusted to do the job and act professionally so you have to set up independent bodies - e.g. independent complaints commissions; external/independent audit; external examiners; independent quality assurance bodies, etc.  They are all set up because if you have people internally doing those jobs then their involvement and bias means that their decisions could be swayed and their actions called into question.

I'm not saying this would happen in rugby, but just picking up on your analogy!

And we have that in the Pro14, we have an independent boss and team who assign and evaluate their performances

But the referees don't report to the independent boss, so your point is worthless.

RiscaGame wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The WRU pay for access to their players, that's what the NDC are. The club pays a % and the WRU pays a % for access.

Not true at all.

NDC players were contracted to the WRU.

I’m sure WOL must’ve said that at one point, so I don’t know how it got missed.

The NDC players were contracted to the WRU but seconded to the pro team. The WRU paid the pro teams 60% of the player wage, so the player was paid by the pro team.

These have all gone now, as much as I understand it. Certainly the two at Cardiff have gone.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So I mentioned earlier where I had sidestepped a question in the hope you'd point it out I'd answer it to your satisfaction Phil and you'd have the courtesy to stop dodging; no luck!
Simple question to you as believe me Phil you jump around so much it's hard to follow; do you only have an issue with employers or is nationality involved in that as well?

Last time on this:

You've misinterpreted me labelling your post as ironic, you don't understand that NHS audits aren't analogous to referees controlling matches in which their colleagues play and you are seemingly unable to grasp why national refs can't referee their own national teams as you don't understand unconscious bias (despite, and here's the irony) delivering it throughout yesterday's exchange.

Now, if you can't grasp any of that extremely clear explanation, there's no hope for you.

Pot Hale wrote:

Brendan wrote:More good news for the league.  FIR is to become a full member of the Pro 14.

A full member?

They will finally become a shareholder of Celtic Rugby DADC if they “meet certain conditions” i.e. pony up the monies they owe the existing shareholder unions that they’ve err...been late on for a few seasons.  

Good to see if it happens and SARU are hoping to do the same either this or next season, once decisions are made on the SR/SANZAAR shuffle and who’s going where in their Player Reduction & Draft programme.

KPMG valued the PrO'14 at €120m. How much are FIR going to pay in to get equal membership?

It'll need to be €25m-€30m just to stand still.

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Brendan wrote:More good news for the league.  FIR is to become a full member of the Pro 14.

A full member?

They will finally become a shareholder of Celtic Rugby DADC if they “meet certain conditions” i.e. pony up the monies they owe the existing shareholder unions that they’ve err...been late on for a few seasons.  

Good to see if it happens and SARU are hoping to do the same either this or next season, once decisions are made on the SR/SANZAAR shuffle and who’s going where in their Player Reduction & Draft programme.

KPMG valued the PRO14 at €120m. How much are FIR going to pay in to get equal membership?

It'll need to be €25m-€30m just to stand still.

Methinks you’ll be standing still for a long time, Phil, waiting for that to happen.

The Italian Rugby Federation (FIR) and PRO14 Rugby have announced that an agreement in principle will see the FIR become a shareholder of Celtic Rugby in the coming year.

Not only will this ensure that two Italian teams will compete in the GUINNESS PRO14 until 2023, it also provides commitments around increased funding and upgrading of facilities for the clubs (Benetton Rugby and Zebre Rugby Club).

Subject to the FIR fulfilling certain conditions, this new deal will represent a significant step forward for both Italian rugby and PRO14 Rugby and lays out a pathway to build upon the recent success of Benetton Rugby and Zebre in the GUINNESS PRO14.

FIR President Alfredo Gavazzi said: "Being part of GUINNESS PRO14 is crucial to continue increasing the strength of elite rugby in Italy, and we are thrilled to be joining PRO14 Rugby on the same footing as our partners. Right from the very start of my first stint as FIR President, I underlined that the ambition of becoming a legitimate partner was vital, and I'm glad we've finally achieved it.

"I'd wish to thank Martin (Anayi) and his organization for strongly believing in Italian Rugby and I'm sure that this new deal will give a further boost to our participation, on and off the field."

Martin Anayi, PRO14 Rugby CEO, commented: "Over the past three years the GUINNESS PRO14 has been transforming on and off the pitch and all of our stakeholders have played a key role in this success. Italian Rugby has always offered great potential, but now in the past 12 months we have seen tangible signs of that with both Benetton Rugby and Zebre enjoying record-win seasons in the PRO14 last season.

"I give great credit to Alfredo and the FIR for recruiting Conor O'Shea as national coach and his staff to drive up standards on the playing side and we have already seen the evidence of his influence at club level. Our Championship needs 14 strong teams to ensure that we continue to offer exciting and competitive rugby to our supporters.

"To see the FIR and its clubs begin to realise their ambitions is very encouraging and, from that point of view, it is only right that they should become a partner alongside the Welsh, Scottish and Irish Unions."

Celtic Rugby DAC is the organisation responsible for running and operating the GUINNESS PRO14 Championship and is owned equally by the Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU), the Scottish Rugby Union (SRU) and the Welsh Rugby Union (WRU).

The board of Celtic Rugby DAC is made up of representatives from the IRFU, SRU, WRU, ProRugby Wales, the FIR and the South African Rugby Union

Can we change the name Celtic Rugby now?

Any suggestions?! Keep them clean! Titles with "Pr'O" or similar in them will not be allowed! That joke is so 2016.

The ABTE League?

Increased funding for Bennetton will make them better if they continue to recruit Hopefully the extra money in Itally goes on securing the talent they have coming through at academies as that helps them internationally aswell.

With that and the draft in SA things are looking up for them too. Let's be honest apart from Leinster if all the other teams were offered the 5-8th best play in SA each year in every position we would happily take it. Them going to only 8 teams of 50 squad players is better than what they have now. They will have good squads, just need to work on retention then. Most of the players that the 4 big teams are hoarding would be good improvements. Of the 900 professional players in SA the kings and cheetahs have a lot of the 400-900 range in most cases.

If we ever want to know what it is like having relegation in the Pro14 we can look at the addition of the South Africans. Quickly put together squads that struggle (Cheetahs away) and lose most of their best players at the end of the season. Not sure how that is viewed as adding to the league if it was happening every year. I'll happily keep the come and play and build up over a few years philosophy that we have.

The Oracle wrote:Can we change the name Celtic Rugby now?

Any suggestions?!  Keep them clean!  Titles with "Pr'O" or similar in them will not be allowed!  That joke is so 2016.

Rugby Union's Great Buisness Yearly League That's Done or Rugby Ltd for short.

Or

Union Run Not Benefactor Rugby.

Brendan wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Can we change the name Celtic Rugby now?

Any suggestions?!  Keep them clean!  Titles with "Pr'O" or similar in them will not be allowed!  That joke is so 2016.

Rugby Union's Great Buisness Yearly League That's Done or Rugby Ltd for short.

Or

Union Run Not Benefactor Rugby.

You do know that not all teams in the league are union run, right?

Celtic Rugby And Pals?

Yup still ducked that question Phil. Is it simply an employer reason or to do with nationality as well?

JP Doyle is a good barometer for that 7.5. He's an RFU referee who has officiated matches involving Leinster in Europe.
Alan Rolland of yester year used to get the biased tag put towards him due to his french sounding name.

The arguments on referee bias always brings me back to the Cheika days at Leinster. He loved to pull the bias card. So much so that along with a number of coaches they managed to make sure for a short while any irish/welsh matches were not officiated by an irish or welsh referee. Unfortunately that meant for a short period of time those most important and tightly contested games were whistled by a novice Mitrea (whose whistle blew at a one play delay to the game) or by an string of incompetent scottish refs (that would come across like a replacement teacher trying to control a class of unruly tots). When deciding between a competent ref and the ability to use 'bias' as the excuse for losing the match, they quietly decided that the travelling team should bring a referee from that union.

At a club level, I'd never see Clancy, as an avid Munster fan, ever show anything but thinly veiled hatred towards Leinster. The thought of their being unconscious bias there based on nationality is a non-runner in that situation. I would say no to him reffing Ireland, as there would be Munster players in that team and that could trigger unconscious bias.

With the SA teams now in and the ability to draft in SA referees I'd hope we'd be fairly close to not having irish/welsh fixtures officiated by an irish/welsh referee.

Once there is a practical (and competent) solution to remove the optics of bias from league fixtures I think it must be taken. Ultimately the 'excuse' must be taken away from the detractors in order to make the league stronger.

The Oracle wrote:

Brendan wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Can we change the name Celtic Rugby now?

Any suggestions?!  Keep them clean!  Titles with "Pr'O" or similar in them will not be allowed!  That joke is so 2016.

Rugby Union's Great Buisness Yearly League That's Done or Rugby Ltd for short.

Or

Union Run Not Benefactor Rugby.

You do know that not all teams in the league are union run, right?

I know but they don't own the league

And it'll just move on band. Read any thread and there will be someone moaning about a ref. May just move onto this ref is rubbish rather than bias yet I read constantly that certain refs are biased despite having no ties etc.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And it'll just move on band. Read any thread and there will be someone moaning about a ref. May just move onto this ref is rubbish rather than bias yet I read constantly that certain refs are biased despite having no ties etc.

Its quite bizarre how dedicated people are to this topic. In every thread discussing the Pro14 the same arguments come up, there's no way they can actually have time to enjoy watching their team actually play rugby, given their up-session with arguing the same thing online over and over again.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:And it'll just move on band. Read any thread and there will be someone moaning about a ref. May just move onto this ref is rubbish rather than bias yet I read constantly that certain refs are biased despite having no ties etc.

Its quite bizarre how dedicated people are to this topic. In every thread discussing the Pro14 the same arguments come up, there's no way they can actually have time to enjoy watching their team actually play rugby, given their up-session with arguing the same thing online over and over again.

One of them doesn't even support a Pro 14 team, so I don't know why people spend so much time entertaining his "debates" when in reality he obviously doesn't really care about the product.

Don't support any club but still watch Risca.

You're a wise man then.

RiscaGame wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:And it'll just move on band. Read any thread and there will be someone moaning about a ref. May just move onto this ref is rubbish rather than bias yet I read constantly that certain refs are biased despite having no ties etc.

Its quite bizarre how dedicated people are to this topic. In every thread discussing the Pro14 the same arguments come up, there's no way they can actually have time to enjoy watching their team actually play rugby, given their up-session with arguing the same thing online over and over again.

One of them doesn't even support a Pro 14 team, so I don't know why people spend so much time entertaining his "debates" when in reality he obviously doesn't really care about the product.

Strange, I thought it was a free forum. Do you need to support a Pro14 team to be able to debate about it ?

Doctor7 wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:And it'll just move on band. Read any thread and there will be someone moaning about a ref. May just move onto this ref is rubbish rather than bias yet I read constantly that certain refs are biased despite having no ties etc.

Its quite bizarre how dedicated people are to this topic. In every thread discussing the Pro14 the same arguments come up, there's no way they can actually have time to enjoy watching their team actually play rugby, given their up-session with arguing the same thing online over and over again.

One of them doesn't even support a Pro 14 team, so I don't know why people spend so much time entertaining his "debates" when in reality he obviously doesn't really care about the product.

Strange, I thought it was a free forum. Do you need to support a Pro14 team to be able to debate about it ?

Handbags in your first post! Strong. You’ll go far on here my friend!

Not at all.

No handbags here. I Just wanted to join a forum where I could talk about rugby. If this is a place where other members like to try and tell you what to do then I really do not think this is the place for me.

I have been reading this forum and trying to find my way around, and some of the things written by people on their high horses is beyond belief.

But I will endeavour to give it a go and see how I get on.