Gats asks for Webb for RWC

Is this the opening shot in a long campaign? Should we get behind him? . In the hole history of shooting one self in the foot is this the most idiotically bollixed ever. There’s nobody to hold the WRU to account if they just say nah! He’s in.

Dontheman2 wrote:Is this the opening shot in a long campaign? Should we get behind him? . In the hole history of shooting one self in the foot is this the most  idiotically bollixed ever. There’s nobody to hold the WRU to account if they just say nah! He’s in.

‘The new SPSP has been formulated by mutual agreement of the WRU and the four professional regions in Wales, is part of the 'Rugby Services Agreement' which ties all five organisations together and will be policed by the 'Rugby Management Board' (RMB) upon which each party sits.’

Perhaps Gats wishes the ‘exceptional circumstances’ caveat that the RFU have should have been in the SPSP?

The WRU have already closed the door on this. I would be very surprised if they changed their mind.

It would set a really bad precedent if they did. This is the first time we’ve had what looks like a solid set of selection rules. We can’t bend them at the first hurdle.

Whilst they may not be in Webb’s league (pun intended) the likes of Rhodri Williams, Johnny Evs, Habberfield, Lloyd Williams etc must be considered as options as the 3rd choice scrum scrum half before we call it a crisis and go bendind the rules.

What I don’t get about all of this is that the WRU created the law/rule after Webb signed with Toulon. Surely that should make him and others in a similar situation exempt. He probably wouldn’t have left if he’d known that was round the corner. Seems daft to penalise players that move under an old set of rules and who were not (at the time) knowingly jeopardising their international careers.

Is someone like Adams at Worcester therefore unable to play for Wales too?

The Oracle wrote:What I don’t get about all of this is that the WRU created the law/rule after Webb signed with Toulon. Surely that should make him and others in a similar situation exempt. He probably wouldn’t have left if he’d known that was round the corner. Seems daft to penalise players that move under an old set of rules and who were not (at the time) knowingly jeopardising their international careers.

Is someone like Adams at Worcester therefore unable to play for Wales too?

It seemed bad when Peel had an example made of him too. But back then they started to cave in for players which is why we ended up in the situation of vague rules that applied to some and not to others. These rules were clear. If you were playing outside l, you could be eligible whilst honouring your existing contract or by being over 60 caps. If not then unlucky.

Funny thing is it’s all hyperbole as Webb is injured now, and may well be injured/not play much before the RWC so he may well be a poor choice even if he were available for selection.

I wonder how Sexton is managed. People say he would be nailed on for Ireland even if he were to play on the moon.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

The Oracle wrote:What I don’t get about all of this is that the WRU created the law/rule after Webb signed with Toulon. Surely that should make him and others in a similar situation exempt. He probably wouldn’t have left if he’d known that was round the corner. Seems daft to penalise players that move under an old set of rules and who were not (at the time) knowingly jeopardising their international careers.

Is someone like Adams at Worcester therefore unable to play for Wales too?

It seemed bad when Peel had an example made of him too.  But back then they started to cave in for players which is why we ended up in the situation of vague rules that applied to some and not to others.  These rules were clear.  If you were playing outside l, you could be eligible whilst honouring your existing contract or by being over 60 caps.  If not then unlucky.

Funny thing is it’s all hyperbole as Webb is injured now, and may well be injured/not play much before the RWC so he may well be a poor choice even if he were available for selection.

That's what I don't get though. Webb signed BEFORE this rule. So that's surely 'eligible while honouring the existing contract'. The fact the contract was agreed days or hours before the new rule came in shouldn't matter. From everything I read it was a complete shock to Webb. It wasn't like this rule was common knowledge and he signed up anyway, as far as I know.

Ask Arhip, contracts mean squat when they’re signed that early in the season.

That’s not the point though SS! It’s like the speed limit on the motorway being 70mph for the last 20 years, changing it to 60mph tomorrow and then charging everyone who was driving 70mph last week with speeding offences! I.e. before the law came in!

It should just be people caught up with contacts signed AFTER the rule, not before. Just my opinion though. They’ve let others off with it (I.e. already on a contract outside England and being under 60 caps e.g. Priestland). Just that Webb’s was signed so close to this rule I think.

No, it’s like saying port talbot has 50mph speed limit, but the cameras only work 75% of the time, then you getting caught speeding after they’ve gone digital and they work all the tone.

Truth is even if the rules hadn’t changed, he was going to have to be a wild card pick. So he was banking on more essential to the squad than one of North, Moriarty and Sanjay. It was a gamble regardless.

So why is Priestland OK then (apparently)? And Tomos Francis? Different rules for different people is not really on.

I know what you mean, but there was plenty of time for Webb and the WRU to arrange things amongst themselves during last season. This is like the whole Brexit debate being on Radio 2 every lunch time. Regardless of opinions, and personal beliefs, what has been decided is decided and no amount of debate now will change it.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I know what you mean, but there was plenty of time for Webb and the WRU to arrange things amongst themselves during last season.  This is like the whole Brexit debate being on Radio 2 every lunch time.  Regardless of opinions, and personal beliefs, what has been decided is decided and no amount of debate now will change it.

Good analogy.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:No, it’s like saying port talbot has 50mph speed limit, but the cameras only work 75% of the time, then you getting caught speeding after they’ve gone digital and they work all the tone...

Don't remind me....

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I know what you mean, but there was plenty of time for Webb and the WRU to arrange things amongst themselves during last season.  This is like the whole Brexit debate being on Radio 2 every lunch time.  Regardless of opinions, and personal beliefs, what has been decided is decided and no amount of debate now will change it.

This is not about my personal opinions or beliefs. If I take myself out of it completely they’re still treating Francis and Priestland (both under 60 caps) differently to Webb (under 60 caps). It doesn’t make sense (only that bit is my personal opinion).

All 3 signed contracts before the new law came in, yet according to the WRU only Webb is ineligible. Happy to be corrected on this.

Two of them were public about it before then, by a good distance, one wasn’t and was still under contract with the union.

Can’t be such a push for the WRU to ‘clarify’ the situation. I doubt they’ve gone public about Webb anyway.

I can see I’m not going to convince you both on this one! But that’s cool. Let’s agree to differ

Both Oracle? Looks to me like it’s only SS on the other side of the debate. I’m with you. It’s all a bit dodgy in application though the principle is good. I think the thing is now that Gats has put his size 14s in there that is going to stir things up and maybe lead to a ‘ reconsideration’

Don WRU have come out a day after Gars did. And said it isn’t happening. They even explained why it’s not happening

If it wasn’t a RWC year, and Gars last year. I don’t think he would’ve said anything, and he would’ve left it until the situation arose to mention it. But it is a RWC year, etc, and he wants to leave on a bang. He clearly rates Webb as our best scrum half, and wants to get him on the field regardless, so that Gats can go out on a high. Don’t blame him, just think it’s making a big issue if nothing.

Dontheman2 wrote:Can’t be such a push for the WRU to ‘clarify’ the situation. I doubt they’ve gone public about Webb anyway.

They have clarified one thing. Webb will not be considered. they have made it abundantly clear.

That's the problem for me, LD. They're bending the rules to punish Webb. The rules should be the rules. For years we've had them bent to suit e.g. with the wild card system. This was an opportunity to apply the rules strictly and rigidly. Yet they've applied different rules to Webb (making him ineligible) than to others based outside Wales (Owen Williams, Francis, Priestland, et al.) who are all available under the new laws.

Thomos Francis may not be required either, Ma'afu Fia will be elidgable by the end of the week. I wonder if the same rule will apply for Francis and Gatland calls up Ma'afu Fia.

Just saying like.

There's a difference between being required and eligible. Francis is eligible regardless. He can be called up at any time if required (unless he signs a new contract in England).

The Oracle wrote:There's a difference between being required and eligible.  Francis is eligible regardless.  He can be called up at any time if required (unless he signs a new contract in England).

But rules are rules.

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:There's a difference between being required and eligible.  Francis is eligible regardless.  He can be called up at any time if required (unless he signs a new contract in England).

But rules are rules.

I don't think you understand LD. They're not applying their own rules. The WRU have stipulated that anyone who signed a contact before the new laws were announced would be fine. Webb signed before the new laws. As did Priestland and Francis. So the WRU are not following their own rules.

http://www.the42.ie/rhys-webb-toulon-3640048-Oct2017/

Webb signs for Toulon 10th October 2017

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/39627.php#.W7ShkxbTWEc

Rule announced 16th October 2017

Any contract has a 14 day cooling off period so......grey area.

So if any of the regions now offers a contract to Thomos Francis and he declines, then he is out of contention ?

didn't this happen to Luke Charteris ?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:http://www.the42.ie/rhys-webb-toulon-3640048-Oct2017/

Webb signs for Toulon 10th October 2017

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/39627.php#.W7ShkxbTWEc

Rule announced 16th October 2017

Any contract has a 14 day cooling off period so......grey area.

Bit naughty though isn't it, especially when it sounds like the Ospreys/WRU made him an offer significantly under market value compared to what Toulon offered and didn't even hint at the time that they had new laws coming in that would affect him. The cynic in me thinks the WRU offered far less and didn't tell him about the laws to give him no choice but to accept the Toulon offer and to then make an example of him! Sad times.

LordDowlais wrote:So if any of the regions now offers a contract to Thomos Francis and he declines, then he is out of contention ?

didn't this happen to Luke Charteris ?

Yes, any new contract signed after the 16th October (or whenever the laws came in) needs to be with a Welsh region to get picked, unless they have 60 caps. If they have 60 caps they can be based wherever.

LordDowlais wrote:So if any of the regions now offers a contract to Thomos Francis and he declines, then he is out of contention ?

didn't this happen to Luke Charteris ?

Even if no region offers him a contract.

The Oracle wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:http://www.the42.ie/rhys-webb-toulon-3640048-Oct2017/

Webb signs for Toulon 10th October 2017

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/39627.php#.W7ShkxbTWEc

Rule announced 16th October 2017

Any contract has a 14 day cooling off period so......grey area.

Bit naughty though isn't it, especially when it sounds like the Ospreys/WRU made him an offer significantly under market value compared to what Toulon offered and didn't even hint at the time that they had new laws coming in that would affect him.  The cynic in me thinks the WRU offered far less and didn't tell him about the laws to give him no choice but to accept the Toulon offer and to then make an example of him!  Sad times.

I like a good conspiracy theory, but wouldn’t it be more logical they would tell him it’s coming in and use that as a way to get him to sign up to a low value contract as he would get to play for Wales still.

I was of the understanding that Webb was warned about what would happen before he made his choice.

LordDowlais wrote:I was of the understanding that Webb was warned about what would happen before he made his choice.

Not according to the interviews I’ve read. Here’s one I read:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/club-rugby/rhys-webb-wales-career-over-toulon-move-ospreys-heartbreaking-contract-renege-a8010951.html

Sounds like he was in the dark. And didn’t want to renege on a contract.

Yes Oracle you are right. I have just had an e-mail off somebody who says they got the info from the horses mouth so to speak, if knew, he would never had gone to Toulon.

LordDowlais wrote:Yes Oracle you are right. I have just had an e-mail off somebody who says they got the info from the horses mouth so to speak, if knew, he would never had gone to Toulon.

Right...

mikey_dragon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Yes Oracle you are right. I have just had an e-mail off somebody who says they got the info from the horses mouth so to speak, if knew, he would never had gone to Toulon.

Right...

Yes, I agree, it's right.

LordDowlais wrote:I was of the understanding that Webb was warned about what would happen before he made his choice.

He wasn't.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I was of the understanding that Webb was warned about what would happen before he made his choice.

He wasn't.

I know.

It feels like there is a cigarette paper between all these positions. Webb is right to give it his best shot in Toulon especially given his longevity as a player and international; Gats last hurrah; the dubiousness of the Senior Player Eligibility’ Rule application; Wales best shot at the WC for a long time. It’s a thousand quid to a pinch of horse manure that no Welsh fan would see it the WRU’s way. What about a poll on here (someone who knows how please) to see the strength of feelings about getting the WRU to say “ F••• it lads- let’s do it, and pull that old fag paper out.

I think Gats is swinging around here.  Wasn't it he who kinda wanted his players back playing in Wales?  So when WRU kinda get such a system up and running, Gats is after an 'exception to the rule' already?

Gats is after his own legacy now of course - he doesn't much mind what policies WRU have in place after the end of next year.  He'll be gone.  

So it's natural he wants the best selection of players he could have available to him for one final campaigning season with Wales. Webb is worth ignoring the rules for given the year that's in it - but then you might always have an excuse for ignoring the rules in the years to come and bon voyage, away the special players will go again to the wealthy hunting grounds of English Premiership and Top14.

Every country that has tried the "internationals must play at home" has either had to make exemptions so huge ns to make it nonsense of given up on the policy ( Bar England?)

Its a stupid idea, stifles young talent coming thru in the clubs and in the long run costs competitiveness in clubs and country

Ireland and their provinces seem to be going well with the policy.

Was Sexton excluded when playing in France? Don’t think so

Tommy Bowe too. I stand corrected

TJ wrote:Every country that has tried the "internationals must play at home" has either had to make exemptions so huge ns to make it nonsense of given up on the policy ( Bar England?)

Its a stupid idea, stifles young talent coming thru in the clubs and in the long run costs competitiveness in clubs and country

Luckily for Wales this policy isn’t ‘internationals must play at home’. In fact, it probably gives the Wales coach more access to players than the old 3 or 4 player wildcard system. It’s only 1 current player currently caught up in this. There’s a number of players who are not based in Wales who can still play for Wales going forward (Faletau, Roberts, Priestland, Charteris, Francis, etc).

Dontheman2 wrote:Was Sexton excluded when playing in France? Don’t think so

I don't think it was going to last though. The hidden messages were out there for Sexton - Schmidt at the time wasn't so hidden about his views - he preferred have Sexton home and often voiced it.
And so a way was found. Now part of that might have been Sexton personally not being happy in France anyway - but I genuinely think he was also feeling the real pressure behind the scenes... he knew his International spot was less secure abroad and became less secure the longer his abroad-ness lasted.

Nope, I think it's a successful program when seriously administered and provided the Nation has enough top teams to have realistic bases for players to stay or return to. I think Wales can quite easily impose the 'stay-at-home' policy and, as it beds down, reap the rewards of it in future years. Scotland have less leverage in that two clubs cut down the options for returning or staying players.

The Oracle wrote:

TJ wrote:Every country that has tried the "internationals must play at home" has either had to make exemptions so huge ns to make it nonsense of given up on the policy ( Bar England?)

Its a stupid idea, stifles young talent coming thru in the clubs and in the long run costs competitiveness in clubs and country

Luckily for Wales this policy isn’t ‘internationals must play at home’. In fact, it probably gives the Wales coach more access to players than the old 3 or 4 player wildcard system. It’s only 1 current player currently caught up in this. There’s a number of players who are not based in Wales who can still play for Wales going forward (Faletau, Roberts, Priestland, Charteris, Francis, etc).

Not current players caught up in it, only one former player