Is New Zealand’s back row their Achilles heal.

I’m starting to think this is the poorest All Blak backrow I can ever remember.Kieran Reid is one of the greats as far as I’m concerned but he looks like he’s running on empty at the moment. Savea is an impact player to me and I can’t even remember who was playing 6 as they were pretty much anonymous. All Blak backrows in times gone by were the most frightening part of their team but now very average,I’m not sure in a world team now who would make it even onto the subs bench. I know Cane will hopefully be back for the World Cup but genuine question to our New Zealand friends who’s waiting in the wings? Where’s the next McCaw, Michael Jones or Kronfield coming from?

stevetynant wrote:I’m starting to think this is the poorest All Blak backrow I can ever remember.Kieran Reid is one of the greats as far as I’m concerned but he looks like he’s running on empty at the moment. Savea is an impact player to me and I can’t even remember who was playing 6 as they were pretty much anonymous. All Blak backrows in times gone by were the most frightening part of their team but now very average,I’m not sure in a world team now who would make it even onto the subs bench. I know Cane will hopefully be back for the World Cup but genuine question to our New Zealand friends who’s waiting in the wings? Where’s the next McCaw, Michael Jones or Kronfield coming from?

What happened to strenght throughout the 60 man squad.  Any team less Mccaw is going to look weak.  Right now the back row in the NH is the most compeditive line at international level.  It might just be that the standard is higher in NH competitions so the NZ players don't get the experince/challenge to grow in the SH were games "flow" so not much dirty stuff for the backrow to enhance their skills.

stevetynant wrote:I’m starting to think this is the poorest All Blak backrow I can ever remember.Kieran Reid is one of the greats as far as I’m concerned but he looks like he’s running on empty at the moment. Savea is an impact player to me and I can’t even remember who was playing 6 as they were pretty much anonymous. All Blak backrows in times gone by were the most frightening part of their team but now very average,I’m not sure in a world team now who would make it even onto the subs bench. I know Cane will hopefully be back for the World Cup but genuine question to our New Zealand friends who’s waiting in the wings? Where’s the next McCaw, Michael Jones or Kronfield coming from?

Liam Squire.

Enough said. You need Cane back. Pronto.

Well South Africa's two best backrowers, Louw and Vermeulen plays for clubs in Europe, that is a lot of class, talent , experience and rugby intellect helping professional rugby in the NH, it stands to reason it leaves a big hole of competitiveness in Super rugby.

If you research further I am sure it will be an extensive list from the Super rugby teams playing abroad.

Here's a thought, the ABs are off the back off the Super Rugby season, the Rugby Championship, then a trip to Japan, then they headed to England and put in a huge shift then had to front up to Ireland who have rested and protected their players...maybe they are....tired

The players that went to England then Ireland didn't go to Japan, did they?

Let's be more circumspect.  They're probably tired and we're probably rusty (at International level)

That still used to be recipe for a good thrashing for one of those sides.

They played the third Bledsoe in Japan then they left a squad there to play Japan

For a couple years I have been saying that Ireland in the last 3, 4 now games against them have dominated the NZ pack in particular at the breakdown which is mainly the job of the backrow or specifically the 7. I mean Ireland's third choice 7 Josh Van Der Flier has two wins now against them on both occasions he looked exceptional.

I think NZ had become over reliant on the quality of their finishing and less reliant on forward domination, in particular at the breakdown. Lineout and scrum are still formidable albeit less so scrum. There was a trend over the last couple of years where good teams would lead or maintain parity with NZ for a while until the last quarter of the game at which point NZs finishing would leapfrog them way ahead once opponents got tired. I don't think they can rely on this anymore as teams like Ireland have the depth and fitness to maintain quality with subs and therefore their other weakness such as discipline and breakdown dominance are becoming more noticeable.

Has anybody seen what Agustin Pichot has said ?

Take a look, perhaps that will answer a lot.

Do you have a link?

Murray Kinsella has put together an article on rucks etc (he's bloody good at it all too I think)

https://www.the42.ie/analysis-rucks-ireland-all-blacks-2018-4350870-Nov2018/

LordDowlais wrote:Has anybody seen what Agustin Pichot has said ?

Take a look, perhaps that will answer a lot.

About where players are born?

Collapse2005 wrote:Do you have a link?

Or just post it up and pretend its your own work, either works

Couple of issues for new zealand. The lack a bit of quality at 6 read looks a touch knackered and they're integrating a new 7. That and coming up against a number of good back rows make them look mortal for once.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Has anybody seen what Agustin Pichot has said ?

Take a look, perhaps that will answer a lot.

About where players are born?

Yes. When other nations have players in their back row, that could/should be playing for other countries, then surely that should be a bit of a mitigating factor, and I do not mean players who have been brought up in another country from a young age and come through the system, I am talking about ready made ones.

So shields could count towards that. Struggling for another example though.

I presume this is the link:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12163826

Its kind of embarrassing that a head of world rugby would post something like that.

The NZ media have actually been quite critical of NZRU officials' jibes re Jake Shields and Bundee Aki throughout November.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So shields could count towards that. Struggling for another example though.

CJ Stander
John Hardie
Ryan Wilson
Sam Skinner
Nathan Hughes


Those for starters.

Forgot about hardie. Didn't realise he'd been back involved recently so my bad. The rest i dont think are kiwis.

Hardie isn't involved. Rumours around his suspension but not being picked I don't think.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Forgot about hardie. Didn't realise he'd been back involved recently so my bad. The rest i dont think are kiwis.

Sorry, I am talking SH in general, after Biltongs response.

It seems too obvious I'm walking into some kind of trap but skinner and wilson ?

I would say that shields would improve the nz back row but I'm very much in the minority. Most england fans are not rating him that highly.

Take a look at Scotlands squad, for players from New Zealand. It might shock you.

LordDowlais wrote:Has anybody seen what Agustin Pichot has said ?

Take a look, perhaps that will answer a lot.

He retweeted an acccount which copied (stole) the data from a video made by Mark at Two Cents Rugby



Mark put a number of caveats in his video, pointing out that the numbers concealed as much as they revealed. It's a shame Pichot didn't give it as much thought.

I don't think it would shock me at all. Merely thought we were still focusing on back rowers for nz. We've gone through the old players leave places for money a few times. People get their noses out of shape as.other economies pull players towards them. After brexit they may all be heading the other way.
On a serious note look at the standard or the last few years youth teams at world cups. That also tells a tale.

Backrow players I could find that left Super Rugby to play in Europe.

Liam Gill - Australian playing for Toulom.
Scott Fardy - Australian playing for Leinster
Marcell Coetzee - South African playing for Ulster
Francois Louw - South African playing for Bath.
Duane Vermeulen - South African, just coming home now.
Jerome Kaino - New Zealand playing for Toulouse
Liam Messam - New Zealand playing for Toulon
Willem Alberts - South African playing for Stade Francais
Victor Vito - New Zealand playing for la rochelle
Nizaam Carr - South Africa playing for wasps
Michael Rhodes - South Africa playing for Saracens
Jono Ross - South Africa playing for Sale
Heinrich Brussow - South Africa playing for Northampton
Jaco Kriel - South Africa playing for Gloucester
Steve Luatua - New Zealand playing for Bristol
George Smith - Australia playing for Bristol
Uzzeir Cassim - South Africa playing for Scarlets
Arno Botha - South Africa playing for Munster
Chris Cloete - South Africa playing for Munster

19 quality experienced backrowers, that will leave a massive hole in any comp.

Agreed Bilt.

It is hard for any nation to lose that many players, and that is just one area, South Africa look to have taken a real pounding as of late.

Consider we have 6 Franchises, that is two top quality backrowers per team.

We've an advantage in that the pro14 is an intense breakdown battle every week.

It reminds me of the time, back in the late 80's to mid 90's when any decent player we produced in Wales was taken by clubs in rugby league.

No doubt you will remember the Wales game in Pretoria circa 1998 when you pasted us 96 to 13.

That was because all our best players were playing rugby league. It was a nightmare. Although that result did kind of force the hands of the WRU.

It still happens now though, the rich French and English clubs are always circling the Welsh regions looking for somebody they can flash the cash at. Rhys Webb and Dan Biggar being the latest two be tempted away.

Yeah I remember that match. Was a slaughter. But that was also when we were on our run of 17 consecutive victories

Richer nations will generally attract players. You could possibly say that's impacted new zealand but it doesn't appear to be affecting their ability to compete in the front five or back row. Probably just coincides with not that much quality around following kaino and mccaw leaving. It's always hard to replace that level of quality.

I thought this was a discussion about NZ's pack. Snore.

LordDowlais wrote:
No doubt you will remember the Wales game in Pretoria circa 1998 when you pasted us 96 to 13.

in 1998?

Give over RU was 3 years pro - Gibbs, Bateman, Quinnell, Young etc. were all back in Union then and a good bit fitter for their stints in League.

The issue for Wales was the Pro14 hadn't been formed so they lacked a decent club competition.

rodders wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
No doubt you will remember the Wales game in Pretoria circa 1998 when you pasted us 96 to 13.

in 1998?

Give over RU was 3 years pro - Gibbs, Bateman, Quinnell, Young etc. were all back in Union then and a good bit fitter for their stints in League.

The issue for Wales was the Pro14 hadn't been formed so they lacked a decent club competition.

Thanks for clearing things up.

Oh, so its not another poor little Wales are so hard done by thread!

I've not watched much super rugby this year, but what happened to Akira Ioane? I saw he was pulling up trees not too long ago, and would seem to be in that Kaino model of 6, with the power carries and tackles.

Squire does seem quite anonymous to me too, I'm sure he's a good player as he wouldn't otherwise be an AB, but with the quality and consistency that Kaino brought to that shirt the difference is quite apparent

Who else is out there? Elliot Dixon was looking like a contender a while ago, has he fallen off? I've always been impressed with Taufua at Crusaders too, but he's never really had a shot in the full international side

I have issues when people complain about Shields, Stander, all the Scottish Quailified people. They were all told they weren't good enough for international rugby for their "home" union. So off they go to make money for their family is their short career. As non internationals they would have been on poor contacts by their union. Along comes a bigger contract so they move their whole family so they can get more in the bank.

They then get good and capped and suddenly we are robbing players who were told they weren't good enough for back home.

Aki might be different but he worked in a bank in his early years so has a shorter career than most and he was sign by contact so not the biggest contract and the NZRU could have matched it if they wanted him to be a AB.

Internationals who move to clubs in the NH that can't be capped up north are a different story. But when the NZRU treated Charles Piutua the way they did when he wanted to stay the extra year and they told him get lost leaving him without a club I lost empathy for the NZRU

If WR want to pass a rule that limits movement of foreign players at club level they can but biggest losers would be the PIs & Georgia. It would also cause the Bangladesh effect for NZ based players when it came to wages.

Also when is the NZRU going to pay Ireland for the year BB stayed in Ireland playing GAA.

Shields was surplus to requirements in New Zealand because Fifeta was selected in the squad ahead of him. Can anyone spot the hypocracy?

Numbers on where the players are:

2,660 players in Six Nations clubs excl French academies
Of those
1,780 are home born in the country they play in
277 are from other NH countries
604 are from SH countries.

There's no denying that players moved clubs and countries. The numbers bear it out.
Why they moved is down to each of the individual players - ultimately only they know why they decided to move where and when they did. No one else does.

Pichot is being disingenuous. He initially argued that only players born in the country should play for that country's test team claiming that he didn't want to see a Tongan-born academy player being taken to pull on say the green jersey of Ireland as was happening currently as he put it (which it isn't in Ireland). He thought there should be no residency period to qualify players. The Two Cent Videos figures that he - err- borrowed were based on players selected for the November squads. The squad sizes differ across each country. The nationality of the foreign-players differ. And their reasons or means for choosing that country differ.

But that didn't matter to him as he was sitting in the "holier than thou" seat on Argentina having no foreign-born players in its November squad. Never mind that he's the vice-chairman of World Rugby and presided over the change in the residency laws from 3 to 5 years. He didn't resign in protest or on principle for this change on the basis that he'd argued for more. "It should be for life, like in football. I would understand a five year..." "There are special cases where players moved when they were ten or twelve years old but just moving to a country, being taken from an Academy, like they are doing in Tonga, and put into play, say, in an Ireland shirt, I’m against it. I think it is not right."

He ignores that many of the former Argentine players and a good few of the current squad got their experience, learnings and earnings from the European clubs and countries because Argentina has no professional league of its own, and doesn't pay its players well enough. The Argentine union have only one professional SR team to support unlike the unions who develop much greater numbers of professional players and pay them accordingly. The SR team Jaguares and the national team piggyback off the existing SR comp and Rugby Championship that others built over many years and created its value. Whilst sitting in his role as vice-chair, he abuses his position to take potshots at his country's upcoming opponents - I say foul.

LordDowlais wrote:Take a look at Scotlands squad, for players from New Zealand. It might shock you.

Number of players who have started for Scotland this series who are from New Zealand........... 1 Sean Maitland

Biltong wrote:Backrow players I could find that left Super Rugby to play in Europe.
19 quality experienced backrowers, that will leave a massive hole in any comp.

Not quite the full picture, Biltong. For context, I've added in some details on their career, teams, departures and where they went first and subsequently.

Liam Gill - Australian playing for Toulon. 15 Aus caps, played for the Reds before leaving for Toulon for a year because he felt he was shut out of Australia’s back row for the previous two years by David Pocock, Michael Hooper and latterly Sean McMahon. "“Whilst we are disappointed to see him go, there are limitations to what we are currently able to do if players garner overseas interest and aren’t in the top band of Wallabies” said Wallbies Gen Mgr. Now playing for Lyon since 2017. Age 26
Scott Fardy - Australian playing for Leinster - surplus to Cheika's requirements and at 33 took a two-year contract offer in 2017. Available for RWC? He's 34
Marcell Coetzee - South African playing for Ulster - left for Japan then returned to Sharks and then went injured to Ulster. He's played 6 games in two seasons. Contract finished in May next year. He's 27. Crocked.
Francois Louw - South African playing for Bath. Left for England in 2011. Age 33.
Duane Vermeulen - South African, just coming home now. Left for France, then went to Japan. Age 32
Jerome Kaino - New Zealand playing for Toulouse - He left for Japan, he came back, he was leaving, he was staying, he left. He's 35.
Liam Messam - New Zealand playing for Toulon - he left for Japan, he came back, he left again for France. He's 34
Willem Alberts - South African playing for Stade Francais - 43 Bok caps - left for Stade in 2015 - he's 34.
Victor Vito - New Zealand playing for la rochelle - left for France in 2016 - Age 31
Nizaam Carr - South Africa playing for wasps - Left Stormers for England - Age 27
Michael Rhodes - South Africa playing for Saracens - left Stormers for England - Age 30
Jono Ross - South Africa playing for Sale - left Blue Bulls for Saracens, returned to Bulls/Blue Bulls, left again for Stade Francais, joined Sale last year - Age 28
Heinrich Brussow - South Africa playing for Northampton - left for Japan then switched to Saints this season. Age 32
Jaco Kriel - South Africa playing for Gloucester - left for Japan then joined Gloucester. Age 29
Steve Luatua - New Zealand playing for Bristol. Left Blues for Bristol - Age 27
George Smith - Australia playing for Bristol - oh come on - He's 92 or something. Left in 2010 for Toulon, then Japan, then Stade, Lyon, Wasps, Japan, Bristol
Uzzeir Cassim - South Africa playing for Scarlets - was playing for Cheetahs who were axed from SR and joined PRO14 last year. Transferred to Scarlets this season.
Arno Botha - South Africa playing for Munster - left Blue Bulls for London Irish last year. On a 1 year contract with Munster - Available from May next year. Age 27
Chris Cloete - South Africa playing for Munster - was playing for Pumas in Currie Cup and Southern Kings in 2016/17 before they were axed from SR. Capped for South Africa A. Munster contract until May 2020 when he'll be 29.

tigertattie wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Take a look at Scotlands squad, for players from New Zealand. It might shock you.

Number of players who have started for Scotland this series who are from New Zealand........... 1 Sean Maitland

Well in fairness, you did have Simon Berghan on the bench in a couple of matches. So two = same number as Wales and Ireland.

Shocking really. Absolutely shocking.

Biltong wrote:Backrow players I could find that left Super Rugby to play in Europe.

Liam Gill - Australian playing for Toulom.
Scott Fardy - Australian playing for Leinster
Marcell Coetzee - South African playing for Ulster
Francois Louw - South African playing for Bath.
Duane Vermeulen - South African, just coming home now.
Jerome Kaino - New Zealand playing for Toulouse
Liam Messam - New Zealand playing for Toulon
Willem Alberts - South African playing for Stade Francais
Victor Vito - New Zealand playing for la rochelle
Nizaam Carr - South Africa playing for wasps
Michael Rhodes - South Africa playing for Saracens
Jono Ross - South Africa playing for Sale
Heinrich Brussow - South Africa playing for Northampton
Jaco Kriel - South Africa playing for Gloucester
Steve Luatua - New Zealand playing for Bristol
George Smith - Australia playing for Bristol
Uzzeir Cassim - South Africa playing for Scarlets
Arno Botha - South Africa playing for Munster
Chris Cloete - South Africa playing for Munster

19 quality experienced backrowers, that will leave a massive hole in any comp.

All four of those 6's could probably still make our starting side, ahead of Shields as well. Huge losses.

Collapse2005 wrote:Shields was surplus to requirements in New Zealand because Fifeta was selected in the squad ahead of him. Can anyone spot the hypocracy?

Not just Fifita, Squire, Frizzell, Messam, Kaino were all selected ahead of him over the years. He was never, and is still not, AB standard.

Pot Hale wrote:

Biltong wrote:Backrow players I could find that left Super Rugby to play in Europe.
19 quality experienced backrowers, that will leave a massive hole in any comp.

Not quite the full picture, Biltong.  For context, I've added in some details on their career, teams, departures and where they went first and subsequently.
 
Liam Gill - Australian playing for Toulon. 15 Aus caps, played for the Reds before leaving for Toulon for a year because he felt he was shut out of Australia’s back row for the previous two years by David Pocock, Michael Hooper and latterly Sean McMahon. "“Whilst we are disappointed to see him go, there are limitations to what we are currently able to do if players garner overseas interest and aren’t in the top band of Wallabies” said Wallbies Gen Mgr.    Now playing for Lyon since 2017. Age 26
Scott Fardy - Australian playing for Leinster - surplus to Cheika's requirements and at 33 took a two-year contract offer in 2017. Available for RWC? He's 34
Marcell Coetzee - South African playing for Ulster - left for Japan then returned to Sharks and then went injured to Ulster.  He's played 6 games in two seasons.  Contract finished in May next year. He's 27.  Crocked.
Francois Louw - South African playing for Bath.  Left for England in 2011.  Age 33.
Duane Vermeulen - South African, just coming home now. Left for France, then went to Japan.  Age 32
Jerome Kaino - New Zealand playing for Toulouse - He left for Japan, he came back, he was leaving, he was staying, he left.  He's 35.
Liam Messam - New Zealand playing for Toulon - he left for Japan, he came back, he left again for France.  He's 34
Willem Alberts - South African playing for Stade Francais - 43 Bok caps - left for Stade in 2015 - he's 34.
Victor Vito - New Zealand playing for la rochelle - left for France in 2016 - Age 31
Nizaam Carr - South Africa playing for wasps - Left Stormers for England - Age 27
Michael Rhodes - South Africa playing for Saracens - left Stormers for England - Age 30
Jono Ross - South Africa playing for Sale - left Blue Bulls for Saracens, returned to Bulls/Blue Bulls, left again for Stade Francais, joined Sale last year - Age 28
Heinrich Brussow - South Africa playing for Northampton - left for Japan then switched to Saints this season.  Age 32
Jaco Kriel - South Africa playing for Gloucester - left for Japan then joined Gloucester.  Age 29
Steve Luatua - New Zealand playing for Bristol.  Left Blues for Bristol - Age 27
George Smith - Australia playing for Bristol - oh come on - He's 92 or something.  Left in 2010 for Toulon, then Japan, then Stade, Lyon, Wasps, Japan, Bristol
Uzzeir Cassim - South Africa playing for Scarlets - was playing for Cheetahs who were axed from SR and joined PRO14 last year.  Transferred to Scarlets this season.
Arno Botha - South Africa playing for Munster - left Blue Bulls for London Irish last year.  On a 1 year contract with Munster - Available from May next year. Age 27
Chris Cloete - South Africa playing for Munster - was playing for Pumas in Currie Cup and Southern Kings in 2016/17 before they were axed from SR. Capped for South Africa A. Munster contract until May 2020 when he'll be 29.

The context is all fine PH, it doesn't change the reality of our domestic rugby falling behind because of the lure of big money.

Take that number of backrowers out of any country, remove the overseas players in that domestic comp, and see the quality drop.

That is the reality.

International section not club. So what you're saying is that the quality of squire savea and read are lacking because they're not testing themselves regularly in Europe. Fortunately I think they'll be able to engineer themselves a move to improve.

No 7&1/2 wrote:International section not club. So what you're saying is that the quality of squire savea and read are lacking because they're not testing themselves regularly in Europe. Fortunately I think they'll be able to engineer themselves a move to improve.

You just cannot help yourself can you? having to have a go at every bloody comment.

The thread is about the quality of the AB backrow, my contention is they don't get tested against the best backrows in Super rugby because Super rugby lose too many quality backrowers.

Hence the refernece of domestic or club rugby as you put it on an international thread.

Thought that was obvious, apparently not.

My theory was confirmed by "the breakdown" in New Zealand this morning when I watched it, stating the European teams has taken the breakdown to another level, and in my view the quality of recruiting from the SH has a lot to do with that.

Anything else you want to have a go at?

No I really can't help commenting on a thread I want to.
My point stands new zealand players could go to Europe to improve then return. Or new zealand could relax their over sea rule and pick them while overseas.
That way the nh clubs get what theu want and nz improve.
I'm more inclined to think that the current back row is lower quality but don't think they main driver for that is players in other leagues.