6N 2019: France v Scotland

First topic message reminder :

Saturday 23rd Feb 2019
Stade de France
KO 14:15

France


Scotland


After two opening losses for France and a home loss for Scotland, both teams are looking to get their tournament back on track. Expect a response or implosion from France at home but also expect the same from Scotland.

This could be interesting.

Ta LT.

RDW wrote:

BigGee wrote:Gary Graham has made an impact

Most of the subs have

Yeah selections probably wrong I’d say

We've made over 400m made but have done nothing with it

Well you can't say they did not deserve that

Well played France, we deserved nothing from the game and got nothing

One of my dislikes about Rugby Union is that games can be, theoretically, endless. I wish games/halves would end at the 80/40 minute mark, instead of carrying on until the ball goes dead.

Anyway, France get an unlikely bp win.

Well done France, everyone laughs at them (rightly so) but they played well today.

Feel sorry for Scotland as that wasn't a true performance from them, they are far better than that.

Fair play for keeping playing for the bonus point. Well done today France, some really promising performances in there.

Scotland 1/10 for making it onto the plane

We've had some awful performances in the 6N era, but that's got to be up there with one of the most disappointing - we knew exactly what we needed to do to beat the French but completely and utterly failed to implement it. Really, really poor.

Credit to France - they were 100000% better then their first 2 games.  They looked so much more organised and have some real danger men out wide.

Absolutely pumped. Lucky it wasn’t more.

We have been really really poor all tournament and I fear we might very well get beaten very badly against Wales and England.

Righto. No need to take time to mull things over

Team for Wales

Dell
Mcinally
Berghan (unless Nel is fit)
Gilchrist
Toolis (Jonny was rotten again)
Bradbury
Ritchie (only Scotland player who played well)
Graham

Horne jnr
Dancer
Darcy
Johnson
Johnstone
Maitland
Kinghorn

Horne (again) shown not to be a 10 and also not a 12 at international level

Jonny is just not playing at the moment. I’d let him rest/find form. I’d look to bring big Ritchie G back for the bench place.

Every time our backs got the ball they fluffed their lines. Every kick we put up only had Ritchie chasing it. Every kick they put up our backs just weren’t going for it.

Our backs were the worst I’ve seen in a long long time. Even Henderson and Morrison while limited didn’t make the mistakes that lot did today.

Great try for France. Finally got a bonus point.

Could it be a shoot out between Scotland and Italy for the wooden spoon?

Going for the LBP and ending up giving away a TBP just about sums it up today ...

Very disappointed with that. Not much else to say really, no composure and allowed France back into the game again and again and again. They played well though, very good performance from them despite their own mistakes.

About the only comfort I can take from that is that the subs did make a difference and upped our effort enormously.

Price, Hastings, both Graham's, Toolis and Hastings could all be starting next time out. He certainly needs to make some changes, plenty of our bigger players did not turn up today

majesticimperialman wrote:Great try for France. Finally got a bonus point.

Could it be a shoot out between Scotland and Italy for the wooden spoon?

Can't see Italy beating anyone (luckily)

Next game then

Front row were awful so I’d play Allan, Brown and Fagerson.
Second row Agree Jonny looks a shadow of the player he once was.
Back row is pick ‘em. Strauss, Ritchie, Graham maybe
Greeg needs out now, he’s a liability. Too slow too ponderous
Dancer back please
Sam Johnson
13 is ?? IanBru maybe if he remembers his boots.
Tam
Darcy G
Mainland. Kinghorn on the bench as his inability to pass the ball is really becoming an issue now.

Bugger it, that really was pish wasn’t it.

Good points.. The subs. Bad points just about everyone else

So turns out of we lose Nel, R Gray, Barclay, Watson, Wilson, Russell, Taylor, Jones and Hogg we are actually a bit crap.

Eejit wrote:Next game then

Front row were awful so I’d play Allan, Brown and Fagerson.
Second row Agree Jonny looks a shadow of the player he once was.
Back row is pick ‘em. Strauss, Ritchie, Graham maybe
Greeg needs out now, he’s a liability. Too slow too ponderous
Dancer back please
Sam Johnson
13 is ?? IanBru maybe if he remembers his boots.
Tam
Darcy G
Mainland. Kinghorn on the bench as his inability to pass the ball is really becoming an issue now.

Bugger it, that really was pish wasn’t it.

Grigg actually did ok at 13, his defence was fine but did not get a chance to run off anyone. Horne is just not able to get a back line moving at international level, but we kind of knew that anyway!

Eejit wrote:Next game then

Front row were awful so I’d play Allan, Brown and Fagerson.
Second row Agree Jonny looks a shadow of the player he once was.
Back row is pick ‘em. Strauss, Ritchie, Graham maybe
Greeg needs out now, he’s a liability. Too slow too ponderous
Dancer back please
Sam Johnson
13 is ?? IanBru maybe if he remembers his boots.
Tam
Darcy G
Mainland. Kinghorn on the bench as his inability to pass the ball is really becoming an issue now.

Bugger it, that really was pish wasn’t it.

You a back eejit?

Dell and Berghan were good in the loose. Lost two scrums to penalties but weren’t shoved off the ball. It was Allan Brown and Fagersson that were blown away for the push over try.

Gilchrist was ok. Toolis made an impact.

Our issue today were the backs were totally awful and failed to compete effectively for any kicked ball.

I’d not be buying any of the backs a pint tonight absolutely terrible

Eejit wrote:
Mainland. Kinghorn on the bench as his inability to pass the ball is really becoming an issue now.

That is the absolute Achilles heal in Blairhorn's game atm, he makes the break but just never sees the open man. He can't win games by himself

Eejit wrote:Next game then

Front row were awful so I’d play Allan, Brown and Fagerson.
Second row Agree Jonny looks a shadow of the player he once was.
Back row is pick ‘em. Strauss, Ritchie, Graham maybe
Greeg needs out now, he’s a liability. Too slow too ponderous
Dancer back please
Sam Johnson
13 is ?? IanBru maybe if he remembers his boots.
Tam
Darcy G
Mainland. Kinghorn on the bench as his inability to pass the ball is really becoming an issue now.

Bugger it, that really was pish wasn’t it.

Bit harsh on the front row - they gave away 1 pen but the rest of the scrums were ok, plus Dell and Mcinally did ok in the loose. The reserve front row were annihilated on our line near the end. I don't think we'll be seeing mass front row changes.

Kinghorn is a difficult one - he was basically our only threat in attack but made a couple of bad mistakes. It's not like maitland or anyone else are putting their hands up.

Desperately poor, every time we got into good positions we made unforced errors. I know we are missing most of our stars, but I expected better than that - exemplified by our lack of kick chasers, just woeful.

Only starting players to come out with any real credit are Maggie, Gilchrist and Kinghorn - everybody else was bang average and in many cases much worse.

EST wrote:Desperately poor, every time we got into good positions we made unforced errors.  I know we are missing most of our stars, but I expected better than that - exemplified by our lack of kick chasers, just woeful.

Only starting players to come out with any real credit are Maggie, Gilchrist and Kinghorn - everybody else was bang average and in many cases much worse.

Ritchie was one of our better players again IMO - Bradbury looked well short of fitness

Kinghorn was very out of position/ slow to react to most of the kicks sent his way. Compounding that he attacks like a young stuart Hogg . Ie it’s ma baw and naebodys getting it.

RDW wrote:

EST wrote:Desperately poor, every time we got into good positions we made unforced errors.  I know we are missing most of our stars, but I expected better than that - exemplified by our lack of kick chasers, just woeful.

Only starting players to come out with any real credit are Maggie, Gilchrist and Kinghorn - everybody else was bang average and in many cases much worse.

Ritchie was one of our better players again IMO - Bradbury looked well short of fitness

Graham probably should have started ahead of Bradbury, he was awesome in his short stint.

You would have said greig Laidlaw was our nailed on starting SH to take us through the WC, but I am seriously doubting it after today. All the old flaws about his service were there again and he was not providing the leadership we expect of him either, he even missed a kick.

Maybe we need to give Horne G and Price a go for the next two games and see if they can manage a game from the start, we have got nothing to lose now, so try a few things out!

bsando wrote:

RDW wrote:

EST wrote:Desperately poor, every time we got into good positions we made unforced errors.  I know we are missing most of our stars, but I expected better than that - exemplified by our lack of kick chasers, just woeful.

Only starting players to come out with any real credit are Maggie, Gilchrist and Kinghorn - everybody else was bang average and in many cases much worse.

Ritchie was one of our better players again IMO - Bradbury looked well short of fitness

Graham probably should have started ahead of Bradbury, he was awesome in his short stint.

Agree with that, he deserves a start. Bradbury and Strauss both faded. Probably tough on Bradbury to expect him to go 80 so soon after his comeback.

I also think folk are being harsh on Horne as in the first half we had very little go forward possession to work with and the constant error count compounded everything. They could not build up any sustained pressure on the French and what pressure they did exert was by individuals breaking the line. The coaches will be ripping them a new one methinks.

Agree with that Gee. Nowt to lose now.

Heuer27 wrote:I also think folk are being harsh on Horne as in the first half we had very little go forward possession to work with and the constant error count compounded everything. They could not build up any sustained pressure on the French and what pressure they did exert was by individuals breaking the line. The coaches will be ripping them a new one methinks.

I don't think we are being harsh, he was just playing out of position and it showed. It happens every time. Play him in his own position and he does just fine

There is a decent amount of Horne bashing on this forum tbh.  Which is unfair in my opinion. He broke the line today from ten and twelve and looked like the only back with the nouse to open gaps for others.
I thought our back three were really poor today. Seymour and Maitland have done nothing for a couple of seasons now. Graham deserves his chance as he looked dangerous when he came on. Both Graham’s did.

Heuer27 wrote:There is a decent amount of Horne bashing on this forum tbh.  Which is unfair in my opinion. He broke the line today from ten and twelve and looked like the only back with the nouse to open gaps for others.
I thought our back three were really poor today. Seymour and Maitland have done nothing for a couple of seasons now. Graham deserves his chance as he looked dangerous when he came on. Both Graham’s did.

At least half of the Horne bashing is some of the Edinburgh fans on the wind-up. I think all Scotland fans value his contributions but do worry about him starting at 10 when we have better options.

I don't think it is Horne bashing, he played well enough when he moved out to 12, his natural position.

He was picked out of position though and it showed. Toonie needs to take the flack for that, not Horne

I Horne bash but I’ve said it’s not his fault he gets picked. And it’s nothing to do with Edinburgh and Glasgow. It’s just that Horne has shown in 90% of games he played in that he simply can’t play international rugby.

And it’s not become he’s a Glasgow player as I’ve long said that his brother, a far better rugby player, is our future 9.

I don’t think it did show. He was constantly on the back foot and it wasn’t until the subs arrived that we started going forward up front and giving the half backs better ball as the French visibly tired. Even then Hastings was a bit flaky. He would have been destroyed in the first half and it might have ruined him ala Price against Wales. After Russell, Horne is it just now. Hastings will be ready next season. He is undercooked as it stands.

tigertattie wrote:I Horne bash but I’ve said it’s not his fault he gets picked. And it’s nothing to do with Edinburgh and Glasgow. It’s just that Horne has shown in 90% of games he played in that he simply can’t play international rugby.

And it’s not become he’s a Glasgow player as I’ve long said that his brother, a far better rugby player, is our future 9.

I don't disagree with that, even as a Glasgow fan. Pete Horne would not be in our squad if everyone was available. That does not make him a bad player though, but he probably just lacks a step of pace and thought to be a truly good international player. However our depth being what it is, he is often our best option.

He was not our best option at FH today though!

You can’t blame the half backs for failing to control a game when the forwards are not supplying a platform to work from.

Heuer27 wrote:You can’t blame the half backs for failing to control a game when the forwards are not supplying a platform to work from.

It is so marginal at this level. when we did get decent ball, that extra half second that Laidlaw takes to get it away means that Horne had a player on top of him as he got it. It was not just about Horne, I don't think our half backs played well individually or collectively, even when we did get some go forward.

BigGee wrote:

Heuer27 wrote:You can’t blame the half backs for failing to control a game when the forwards are not supplying a platform to work from.

It is so marginal at this level. when we did get decent ball, that extra half second that Laidlaw takes to get it away means that Horne had a player on top of him as he got it. It was not just about Horne, I don't think our half backs played well individually or collectively, even when we did get some go forward.

I agree with a lot of that .Just don’t think Horne had a bad game at all, he just got poor ball most of the time.
We have to remember that France had almost brand new players at half back and fullback and we failed miserably to place them under any pressure whatsoever. That’s criminal at this level. look at what Guirardo did to Horne on a couple of occasions.

http://www.scottishrugby.org/news/19/02/23/reaction-gregor-townsend-looks-back-scotlands-defeat-paris

Toonie's thoughts on the game, seems pretty honest to me

I think people have too much faith in toonie from the glasgow days and don't apportion enough blame his way. His tactics are fine at club level, but when it comes to the international stage they are painfully exposed. There is no sense of organisation, basics or strategy. It just depends on a few star players having great performances. He was parachuted in when vern was making a real difference to our structure and organisation. So much for " organised chaos" and "the fastest rugby in the world". Ive been sceptical that he may be riding on the back of other coaches success and luck, and this season it all seems to be looking that way.

NeilyBroon wrote:I think people have too much faith in toonie from the glasgow days and don't apportion enough blame his way. His tactics are fine at club level, but when it comes to the international stage they are painfully exposed. There is no sense of organisation, basics or strategy. It just depends on a few star players having great performances. He was parachuted in when vern was making a real difference to our structure and organisation. So much for " organised chaos" and "the fastest rugby in the world". Ive been sceptical that he may be riding on the back of other coaches success, and this season it all seems to be looking that way.

To be fair to Toonie, lets judge him when we have something remotely like a best side out on the park. We were missing an awful lot of experienced players today and it really showed. Blooding some of these youngsters is good, but we won't get the benefit of that this season.

NeilyBroon wrote:I think people have too much faith in toonie from the glasgow days and don't apportion enough blame his way. His tactics are fine at club level, but when it comes to the international stage they are painfully exposed. There is no sense of organisation, basics or strategy. It just depends on a few star players having great performances. He was parachuted in when vern was making a real difference to our structure and organisation. So much for " organised chaos" and "the fastest rugby in the world". Ive been sceptical that he may be riding on the back of other coaches success, and this season it all seems to be looking that way.

There's been 4 or 5 games now where he's just got our tactics wrong or hasn't approached the game in the correct way - that's on Townsend's shoulders. We would keep putting it down to inexperience and having to learn our lessons but that line is starting to wear thin now.

I'm by no means saying get rid of Townsend - I don't think any coach could have coped with the number of injuries we have - but we can't keep saying we'll learn the lessons and not do it.

I'm not saying we should have beaten France, but the players were all very capable professionals on the pitch today who are familiar with one another some way or another. We should be performing better than that, regardless of who's available. If we'd lost through being outgunned thats fine. But we lost through inadequate execution and poor tactics. Sorry but that is as much a coaching issue as it is personnel. I also think greig as the most senior player and captain has to shoulder some blame, he was awful today, and against Ireland

The platform was there. The forwards were laying a platform but the backs would just drop the ball, run into touch or get themselves exposed.

The biggest failing was the kicking game. Both our kicking and fielding their kicks. A kick is only as good as it’s chase and often it was just Jamie Ritchie chasing.

One of Seymour and Maitland must be dropped for graham next game. If Scotland had another winger on form then both would be dropped.

Seymour and maitland have been really really poor in the last three games. You could even argue that Seymour has been mince for Scotland in the AIs too.

Yeah I think we really missed Russell and Hogg today. Their kicking game is so important to the game plan now.

I need to rewatch the game to better undetsnd what went wrong so badly. Especially considering how many chances France gave Scotland.

Lineout is still not right, what happened to those fast ones Scotland used against NZ and the sneaky ones that worked against SA? What happened to playing the fastest rugby in the world??

Both Gray and Seymour were nursing injuries early on, might explain some of the poor performances. Wonder if we'll get an injury update this week, could be a few knocks from a physical game.

Before today I thought the Wales game would be winnable... Now very worried!

Pat you'd make a great coach..... not.
That's not the attitude because if Wales had bought in to English pre game pomp they'd have imploded in the first half like I'm sure expected them to do.
Scotland have a great chance now with less pressure on in terms of championship, which can prompt teams to play a more cautious/safe game. They're also hurting enough to be eager to inflict their physicality on a team that will be feeling maybe a little too buoyant after their big win against England.