Interesting that TMO and Clancy thought this was just a penalty

miaow wrote:Money, full crowds, money, success, tax haven money, rubbish referees are the standard, money etc etc...

But na. You know. Come on...

Where are these full crowds you talk about because I know Ulster would love them

Collapse2005 wrote:

miaow wrote:Money, full crowds, money, success, tax haven money, rubbish referees are the standard, money etc etc...

But na. You know. Come on...

You have a keen imagination and sense of victimhood.

Errrrrrrr...hmmmm...

I prescribe you 1 holiday out outside of Wales to broaden your mind and dull your sense of victimhood and self importance. Preferably somewhere without a good broadband network.

Haha. Preferably germ-free and with good firearm laws...

How is it news that clownshoes Clancy is a terrible ref?
He's always been terrible and has never improved.
In fact I remember a thread from 4 years ago where the Irish posters were saying he's terrible and should be binned.
He's not biased, he shows no favourites, he's just God awful at his job.

But he's not the only Poopie ref in charge of top class games. Speak to anyone from the prem to the top14 to super rugby and you will find they all have a few clownshoes of there own.
Refs are human. Some are better than others, but even the best have had days and miss stuff.

Was it a red? Yes
Did clownshoes bottle it? Yes
Is he the only ref to ever bottle a decision like this? Hell no
Will it happen again next season in pretty much every top class rugby league?
You bet
Will people take moments like this to "prove" there own bias? Again of course they will
Is everyone entitled to an opinion? Yes
Will everyone agree with your opinion? Of course not.

But without refs we have no game, I would rather they were all brilliant, but that will never happen and over the course of a season you get as many good decisions for as you do against.
Hey ho that's life.

Let's all move on and be a little kinder (unless we're talking about sarries cheating the cap, or Bruce Craig not being able to cheat his way to success)

carpet baboon wrote:But he's not the only Poopie ref  in charge of top class games. Speak to anyone from the prem to the top14 to super rugby and you will find they all have a few clownshoes of there own.
Refs are human. Some are better than others, but even the best have had days and miss stuff.

Was it a red? Yes
Did clownshoes bottle it? Yes
Is he the only ref to ever bottle a decision like this? Hell no
Will it happen again next season in pretty much every top class rugby league?
You bet
Will people take moments like this to "prove" there own bias? Again of course they will
Is everyone entitled to an opinion? Yes
Will everyone agree with your opinion? Of course not.

But without refs we have no game, I would rather they were all brilliant, but that will never happen and over the course of a season you get as many good decisions for as you do against.
Hey ho that's life.

Let's all move on and be a little kinder (unless we're talking about sarries cheating the cap, or Bruce Craig not being able to cheat his way to success)

You're missing the point. It's not just about Clancy. It's also about the TMO and how the pro14 has skimped on cameras, because it's a cheap terrible league - which is hindering the officials - and resulting in key decisions being made incorrectly.

Poor ref, TMO, decisions happens on all sides. KID A. We all want better, but to single out PRO14 Irish refs is wrong. All leagues have issues and that's because rugby union is rather complicated.
The TMO screwed up in the connacht v blues game. Clancy bottled it in the Ulster game. Whitehouse screwed up in Italy.
The losing sides are going to be more critical of refs, and the Welsh Regions happen to be on the losing side for years. Get some first class coaching staff in and the moaning will lessen.

Lagon wrote:Poor ref, TOM, decisions happens on all sides. KID A.

Course they do. Just some more than others. In the same places.

I don't hide who I am online by the way. It's pretty bloody obvious.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:But he's not the only Poopie ref  in charge of top class games. Speak to anyone from the prem to the top14 to super rugby and you will find they all have a few clownshoes of there own.
Refs are human. Some are better than others, but even the best have had days and miss stuff.

Was it a red? Yes
Did clownshoes bottle it? Yes
Is he the only ref to ever bottle a decision like this? Hell no
Will it happen again next season in pretty much every top class rugby league?
You bet
Will people take moments like this to "prove" there own bias? Again of course they will
Is everyone entitled to an opinion? Yes
Will everyone agree with your opinion? Of course not.

But without refs we have no game, I would rather they were all brilliant, but that will never happen and over the course of a season you get as many good decisions for as you do against.
Hey ho that's life.

Let's all move on and be a little kinder (unless we're talking about sarries cheating the cap, or Bruce Craig not being able to cheat his way to success)

You're missing the point. It's not just about Clancy. It's also about the TMO and how the pro14 has skimped on cameras, because it's a cheap terrible league - which is hindering the officials - and resulting in key decisions being made incorrectly.

They could have had 3 times as more cameras but if none of them were pointing in the right direction it wouldn't have made a bit of difference.
Even without more angles he obviously threw a headbutt so a red should have been issued.
As for the rest of it that's your opinion, and your entitled to hold it, but I don't have to agree with you

Not always so obvious... Anyway, you are right in that things needs to improve, just not that there is bias. That's just nonsense perpetuated by a few frustrated Regions supporters.

In all their guises.

With all the improvements in PRO 14 you still moan. Even your own Welsh compatriots disagree with you.

Collapse2005 wrote:In what way do Irish teams have more power?

Their back-row?

The incident was in a low-level dead rubber match with no consequence for the other tams in the Championship - probably why Clancy got assigned the gig.

Sunset & Vine, based in Cardiff, a well-rspectd sports broadcaster (they produce Premiership games for BT) produce the games for Premier Sports and onward feeds to other participating broadcasters.

Quite often, the camera feeds that the TMO can see are not always relayed/linked to the big screen in the stadium.

This topic is just another whinge-fest for the disgruntled. Can't wait to see what the next re-print from Wales Online is going to be.

Here's a few to start some more topics:

"Irish pundit delivers hard-hitting verdict on where Welsh rugby is going wrong despite Grand Slam triumph"

"Wales could still have two teams in next season's Champions Cup but the PRO14 don't yet know what to do"

"Cardiff Blues boss angry over key refereeing decisions and takes a swipe at Wales star after Ospreys defeat"

Pretty much sums it up

All the evidence in the world wouldn't change certain posters' opinions that any criticism is 'whinging' and any inherent failure of the league is due to the Welsh not being 'arsed'. That sounds like the kind of mindset that can't be reasoned with.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:In what way do Irish teams have more power?

Their back-row?

Talking of back row when is Jenkins back fit? Does he have a chance for the world cup?

Left out of the squad so looks like he's not going to make it unfortunately.

What evidence? Did the Italians cheat their way above the Regions?

Get good coaching...

Seems weird that miaow wants the Welsh teams out of this competition and into an English league when he’s so anti-English elsewhere. What an odd character..

miaow wrote:Left out of the squad so looks like he's not going to make it unfortunately.

That sucks. He was in great form

miaow wrote:All the evidence in the world wouldn't change certain posters' opinions that any criticism is 'whinging' and any inherent failure of the league is due to the Welsh not being 'arsed'. That sounds like the kind of mindset that can't be reasoned with.

As you and others have demonstrated

Cyril wrote:Seems weird that miaow wants the Welsh teams out of this competition and into an English league when he’s so anti-English elsewhere. What an odd character..

Well Cyril, maybe that's the very point. Maybe miaow would simply prefer 'hating' the English in regular competition more than he enjoys 'hating' the Irish?

I'm being a might flippant of course as I have no problems with miaow. Seems a decent poster to me... passionate at times but then we all get that way from time to time.

But I do go back to the serious point. I do think that's probably the main point in this constant Welsh frustration with Pro14. They DO miss the fun of the rivalry between them and the English. There is obviously something much more emotional and historic about that rivalry across a walkable border than an imposed, perhaps artificial one, across a sea.
I've always been prepared to admit that Welsh fans DO want or would appreciate more the natural bite of games against English sides ( in many ways a more natural 'Derby' contest for them than Blues v Ospreys or Dragons v Scarlets). And I suppose too that such a contest might very well increase bums on seats at Regional stadiums.

I honestly don't think Pro14 will ever be 'good enough' to fully replace those emotions for the Welsh. But all I ask is that the Irish aren't always blamed indirectly or directly for all the upheavals that have hit Welsh rugby since professionalism began. We're just looking out for our interests in our way. It's for the Welsh to do the same for their end. But that to me is obviously a discussion for the Welsh and English. Who knows? Maybe the English themselves would actually enjoy the bite too in weekly competition against Welsh regions?

SecretFly wrote: But all I ask is that the Irish aren't always blamed indirectly or directly for all the upheavals that have hit Welsh rugby since professionalism began.

Who is blaming the Irish for problems in Welsh rugby? It seems you have a persecution complex as well as a superiority one.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote: But all I ask is that the Irish aren't always blamed indirectly or directly for all the upheavals that have hit Welsh rugby since professionalism began.

Who is blaming the Irish for problems in Welsh rugby? It seems you have a persecution complex as well as a superiority one.

Ah you know me as well as Phill does, even though I know you less well than I know Phil

Now on to the serious stuff again. You aren't short of blaming the Pro14 for most of Welsh rugby ills, are you?

.... and we all know that gag at this stage about the "PrO'14"..... don't we?

So stop being so affectedly coy. We all know the inferences between Pro14 and something called 'Irish'

SecretFly wrote:

Cyril wrote:Seems weird that miaow wants the Welsh teams out of this competition and into an English league when he’s so anti-English elsewhere. What an odd character..

Well Cyril, maybe that's the very point.  Maybe miaow would simply prefer 'hating' the English in regular competition more than he enjoys 'hating' the Irish?

I'm being a might flippant of course as I have no problems with miaow.  Seems a decent poster to me... passionate at times but then we all get that way from time to time.

But I do go back to the serious point.  I do think that's probably the main point in this constant Welsh frustration with Pro14.  They DO miss the fun of the rivalry between them and the English.  There is obviously something much more emotional and historic about that rivalry across a walkable border than an imposed, perhaps artificial one, across a sea.
I've always been prepared to admit that Welsh fans DO want or would appreciate more the natural bite of games against English sides ( in many ways a more natural 'Derby' contest for them than Blues v Ospreys or Dragons v Scarlets).  And I suppose too that such a contest might very well increase bums on seats at Regional stadiums.

I honestly don't think Pro14 will ever be 'good enough' to fully replace those emotions for the Welsh.  But all I ask is that the Irish aren't always blamed indirectly or directly for all the upheavals that have hit Welsh rugby since professionalism began.  We're just looking out for our interests in our way.  It's for the Welsh to do the same for their end.  But that to me is obviously a discussion for the Welsh and English.  Who knows?  Maybe the English themselves would actually enjoy the bite too in weekly competition against Welsh regions?

Why does everyone assume Miaow is male?

Because not every cat is a female?

SecretFly wrote:

Ah you know me as well as Phill does, even though I know you less well than I know Phil

Now on to the serious stuff again.  You aren't short of blaming the Pro14 for most of Welsh rugby ills, are you?

.... and we all know that gag at this stage about the "PrO'14"..... don't we?

So stop being so affectedly coy.  We all know the inferences between Pro14 and something called 'Irish'

Welsh rugby has a myriad of problems. Everybody has always said that the relationship between the WRU and the regions is toxic. There's no getting away from that. The 4 regions have made poor choices in recruitment / coaches / sponsors / shirt manufacturers. The list goes on.

Nobody is blaming "The Irish" for these things.

So in other words Welsh rugby should self reflect rather than blame the league?

In all fairness all the league is missing is Welsh sides that could be arsed showing up each week.

SecretFly wrote:

Cyril wrote:Seems weird that miaow wants the Welsh teams out of this competition and into an English league when he’s so anti-English elsewhere. What an odd character..

I honestly don't think Pro14 will ever be 'good enough' to fully replace those emotions for the Welsh.  But all I ask is that the Irish aren't always blamed indirectly or directly for all the upheavals that have hit Welsh rugby since professionalism began.  We're just looking out for our interests in our way.  It's for the Welsh to do the same for their end.  But that to me is obviously a discussion for the Welsh and English.  Who knows?  Maybe the English themselves would actually enjoy the bite too in weekly competition against Welsh regions?

I think this is the problem with some of the Welsh posters, they are pining for a golden age when Bath, Leicester, Wasps, etc. would come over the bridge to play "friendlies" that were anything but friendly and think that in the professional era they can recreate that atmosphere, however the hard fact is that it's not going to happen.

Incidentally looking on the Scarlets website, the best attended game at PyS wasn't their European clash with Leicester Tigers but their PRO14 game with Zebre 8356 v 8087.

So Irish.... basically you're saying that the Welsh want another Zulu war?  

Rugby, technical rugby, professional staid, prim and proper rugby is not good enough for them.  They want war, every weekend, to prove their place in the realm?

Like I say, I can understand that desire and emotion...but it'll need a CrowdWatch TMO (Irish) before it can be sanctioned again!

Quick question..who was the citing commissioner for the game at the weekend?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote: But all I ask is that the Irish aren't always blamed indirectly or directly for all the upheavals that have hit Welsh rugby since professionalism began.

Who is blaming the Irish for problems in Welsh rugby? It seems you have a persecution complex as well as a superiority one.

The posters claiming refs show Irish bias
The posters claiming the Pro14 is ran for the benefit of Irish rugby.
The posters proclaiming how terrible the league is and calling it the Pr'O14 thus insinuating it's an Irish League.

Irish Londoner wrote:

Incidentally looking on the Scarlets website, the best attended game at PyS wasn't their European clash with Leicester Tigers but their PRO14 game with Zebre 8356 v 8087.

Our game v Leicester was effectively a dead rubber.

Check out the Cardiff Blues v Saracens attendance for a more accurate portrayal - oh yes it was a sell out.

carpet baboon wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote: But all I ask is that the Irish aren't always blamed indirectly or directly for all the upheavals that have hit Welsh rugby since professionalism began.

Who is blaming the Irish for problems in Welsh rugby? It seems you have a persecution complex as well as a superiority one.

The posters claiming refs show Irish bias
The posters claiming the Pro14 is ran for the benefit of Irish rugby.
The posters proclaiming how terrible the league is and calling it the Pr'O14 thus insinuating it's an Irish League.

Those things have little bearing on how well some of the idiots at WRU are doing their jobs. Their not mutually inclusive. All these things can be true at the same time y'know.

Maybe a citing commissioner for refs? I don't mean that it would be used often but for big visual question marks such as this where there is a specified rule, a supposedly good piece of footage..... and a questionable reading by the ref, or indeed the TMO.

Ref or TMO called in to explain himself with the visual evidence that he would have seen on the day plus outline of the rules he should know.

No, no, no!, I hear in advance. That would stop the ref allowing the game to flow...it would impede his decision, make him too nervous etc.

I say a suspension period for any ref where the gap between rule break and his perception of what happens seems just too great. And if people say that would kill a ref's career - why should it? Most players pick up where they left off. It merely pushes a ref to be more precise in his judgements. And if players know that refs are under pressure, then they too would have extra pressure.

Oh and whilst I'm at it, throw in coaches too. A citing commissioner for them too - and if it looks like the offside rule is being ignored in unison and by coaching design, or any other rule that players look like they've been coached to ignore, then the coach is suspended from the training ground for a while too.

Yeah, let's try zero tolerance and see how that goes.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote: But all I ask is that the Irish aren't always blamed indirectly or directly for all the upheavals that have hit Welsh rugby since professionalism began.

Who is blaming the Irish for problems in Welsh rugby? It seems you have a persecution complex as well as a superiority one.

The posters claiming refs show Irish bias
The posters claiming the Pro14 is ran for the benefit of Irish rugby.
The posters proclaiming how terrible the league is and calling it the Pr'O14 thus insinuating it's an Irish League.

Those things have little bearing on how well some of the idiots at WRU are doing their jobs. Their not mutually inclusive. All these things can be true at the same time y'know.

If there is a perception that the PRO14 is run for the benefit of Ireland (stress on perception) why aren't the WRU allying with the Scottish RU - who presumably must be equally fed up with it - and as that would make two thirds of the board of the PRO14 they could effect the change they wanted?
Why for example isn't Gatland referencing the disadvantages Wales are getting from being the PRO14 during his press conferences, or Shuan Edwards in his Guardian column? Why aren't Welsh presenters on BBC, Sky or BT rugby coverage bringing it up, or rugby journalists in the national press?

I suppose if the Scottish and the Welsh ganged up on us on Pro14 voting rights...we'd just mosey on off to join the English in an Anglo Irish League

After all it was the English who supported our WC hosting attempt when our Pro14 buddies deserted us.....

That would be delicious to watch. Wouldn't mind the Irish and Scots joining us

BamBam wrote:That would be delicious to watch. Wouldn't mind the Irish and Scots joining us

The turgid rugby the Welsh play definitely wouldn't be marketable

They also wouldn't bring any commercial or subscription revenue to the table, so why would we want them

Irish Londoner wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote: But all I ask is that the Irish aren't always blamed indirectly or directly for all the upheavals that have hit Welsh rugby since professionalism began.

Who is blaming the Irish for problems in Welsh rugby? It seems you have a persecution complex as well as a superiority one.

The posters claiming refs show Irish bias
The posters claiming the Pro14 is ran for the benefit of Irish rugby.
The posters proclaiming how terrible the league is and calling it the Pr'O14 thus insinuating it's an Irish League.

Those things have little bearing on how well some of the idiots at WRU are doing their jobs. Their not mutually inclusive. All these things can be true at the same time y'know.

If there is a perception that the PRO14 is run for the benefit of Ireland (stress on perception) why aren't the WRU allying with the Scottish RU - who presumably must be equally fed up with it - and as that would make two thirds of the board of the PRO14 they could effect the change they wanted?
Why for example isn't Gatland referencing the disadvantages Wales are getting from being the PRO14 during his press conferences, or Shuan Edwards in his Guardian column? Why aren't Welsh presenters on BBC, Sky or BT rugby coverage bringing it up, or rugby journalists in the national press?

I have asked that question a good few times.
Never gets answered .

Why has this thread turned into an attack on the Welsh by the usual suspects, and why are the MODS allowing it ?

Let's talk about the price of beef. It's the only safe subject left.

Only until everyone realises that the morons who voted for Brexit will have fooked that up too

Irish Londoner wrote:

If there is a perception that the PRO14 is run for the benefit of Ireland (stress on perception) why aren't the WRU allying with the Scottish RU - who presumably must be equally fed up with it - and as that would make two thirds of the board of the PRO14 they could effect the change they wanted?

Haven't you seen the news this week? The WRU have blocked Cardiff Blues attempt to give their no.8 a contract extension. The WRU work against the regions half the time. They have done for some time.

The owners of the regions don't control their destiny as regards the Pro14. That's why it is a skewed league for the 4 pro Welsh teams. The WRU will just go along with whatever the other pro14 Unions say. Whereas in France and England - the owners of all teams in the leagues actually operate it. How novel.

Why for example isn't Gatland referencing the disadvantages Wales are getting from being the PRO14 during his press conferences, or Shuan Edwards in his Guardian column? Why aren't Welsh presenters on BBC, Sky or BT rugby coverage bringing it up, or rugby journalists in the national press?

Because they have too much to lose. Too many vested interests. It's a cosy boys club here in Wales. Take prominent Welsh rugby journalist Paul Williams for example. He's employed by the Pro14 to write articles for them....so there is not a chance in hell he's ever going to say anything negative about them in any of his columns. The only journalist with a modicum of nous about him is Simon Thomas, who just tells it straight up as he sees it.

As for Wales coaches - Gatland and Edwards have both moaned about the pro12 before (when they got battered out in New Zealand) but in the main why would they say anything about the current regime? It suits them down to the ground. The pro14 is perfect for the coaches of Wales, Scotland and Ireland. Just the right amount of game time for their squad. It's a breeding ground for the test game. Just how they like it.

If anything, Gatland and Edwards would sooner moan about the regions playing their Wales stars too much before they spout off about the Pro14.

I struggle to understand why anyone would believe that the French and English leagues set the bar for how a league should be structured.

Cyril wrote:Seems weird that miaow wants the Welsh teams out of this competition and into an English league when he’s so anti-English elsewhere. What an odd character..

Weird flex but ok... (find where I've said I want the regions to join England. Go on... )

I like how it's easier to try and find 'holes' in someones' belief system, rather than accept the cognitive dissonance which is - maybe I'm not anti-English...?

SecretFly wrote:Maybe a citing commissioner for refs?  I don't mean that it would be used often but for big visual question marks such as this where there is a specified rule, a supposedly good piece of footage..... and a questionable reading by the ref, or indeed the TMO.

Ref or TMO called in to explain himself with the visual evidence that he would have seen on the day plus outline of the rules he should know...

...and then executed? Ask Guns about that, he's got the whole life-and-death scenario nailed down.

Collapse2005 wrote:I struggle to understand why anyone would believe that the French and English leagues set the bar for how a league should be structured.

And I struggle to understand why people cannot (i.e. don't want to) grasp that Unions running a league with independently owned teams is problematic.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I struggle to understand why anyone would believe that the French and English leagues set the bar for how a league should be structured.

And I struggle to understand why people cannot (i.e. don't want to) grasp that Unions running a league with independently owned teams is problematic.

Remind me about the salary caps in England and France and the transgressions from private entities who struggle to adhere to the rules