2019/20 Premier League Thread - The Longest Season

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

2019/20 Barclays season thread

Start off by asking how long you think Ole will last at the wheel? For me, sacked by February 2020

[Dolphin Ziggler]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52517532

We'll play as long as we can't be relegated. The true colours shine through

Such an easy narrative to read without actually looking at the justification.

I think the points made are completely fair, and the other point is that they are not bartering between “this is unsafe” and “it’s safe if we can’t go down.” They’re separate issues.

I don’t see how anyone can go on about integrity and fairness then back this plan. Let alone the safety, mental health issues and everything else, but there’s no way it’s fair to play at neutral grounds. It isn’t the same season as the other 29 games at all.

Footballers just can’t be treated like humans and this whole thing is making it more apparent. I’ve never been less enamoured with football.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Have we mentioned Liverpool’s criticism of their own mayor and heavy involvement in project restart whilst also saying the women’s games should be voided on safety grounds?

There’s true colours there, one way or another.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Have we mentioned Liverpool’s criticism of their own mayor and heavy involvement in project restart whilst also saying the women’s games should be voided on safety grounds?

There’s true colours there, one way or another.

Dolph careful, you can't say anything bad about the glorious, fine and upstanding, Liverpool football club...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

PFA Chief Executive Gordon Taylor says that games shorter than 45 minute halves are on the table as an option for the restart.

[Duty281]

PFA Chief Executive Gordon Taylor says that games shorter than 45 minute halves are on the table as an option for the restart.

It's getting bloody stupid now. The rate things are going we'll end up with a proposal for five-a-side football, ten minutes per half, no tackling or marking, no prospect of relegation, and all played out on one Saturday at a industrial estate on the outskirts of Wigan.

Just cancel this season. Focus on planning for next season behind closed doors.

[westisbest]

Exactly. It’s becoming a joke.

[Guest]

League One & Two being abandoned next week. PPG weighted home and away deciding positions.

[Soul Requiem]

Could be a coincidence but Bumdesliga 2 bottom placed team Dresden have two players test positive and go into two week isolation.

[Guest]

A third Brighton player has tested positive. Pretty much predicted this. Project restart is doomed.

[Crimey]

If we don't get football back until we're sure footballers won't be infected with Covid, then we're not getting football back until minimum 2022. 

The messaging has been completely confused with this virus. The whole point of lockdown and closing things was to ensure the NHS was not overwhelmed - not to eradicate the virus completely!

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Yeah, Frak them wanting to be healthy and not risk their lives, children’s lives, family’s lives, their future careers, as long as we get football and the NHS is fine.

[hampo17]

How about a bigger question Dolph, if we all have to go back to work then shouldn’t footballers be expected to do the same? Aren’t we just at much risk?

[Crimey]

Yeah, Frak them wanting to be healthy and not risk their lives, children’s lives, family’s lives, their future careers, as long as we get football and the NHS is fine.

What's your solution? This isn't just football specific, this is the entire world.

If we want to wait until there is zero chance of anybody getting the disease, then we're going to be waiting a very long time and there will be a total global economic crash (and a lot more deaths from that than Covid). The aim should always be to protect people as much as possible, but as with all risks that exist in life there is a balance to be struck. 

Footballers didn't stop flying after the Munich disaster, they didn't stop fans coming to stadiums after the Hillsborough disaster, they didn't stop footballers eating after the Tottenham team got food poisoning in 2006. The risk of all those three were mitigated, but it's still possible they could happen. Exactly the same approach is needed here (in football and beyond) because it's not sustainable to stay locked down forever - given a vaccine may never be created and lockdown makes any form of herd immunity essentially impossible.

[Soul Requiem]

How about a bigger question Dolph, if we all have to go back to work then shouldn’t footballers be expected to do the same? Aren’t we just at much risk?

You have to consider the risk/reward of going back to work, for the majority of people the reward will unfortunately outweigh the risk, that isn't really true of multi millionaire footballers still getting paid.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

The comparison to those three events is ridiculous. That’s the stupidest argument I’ve heard yet.

What balance is there? The balance between prioritising finishing the season over lives, mental health, strain on services and health?

And why, and this one has always had a very clear answer, must we accept football back so soon and finish this specific season, if it’s just about the balance of the economy and restarting a semblance of normality? Why can 22 footballers get together in June when we aren’t even sure you’ll be able to meet family from outside your house?

[Dolphin Ziggler]

How about a bigger question Dolph, if we all have to go back to work then shouldn’t footballers be expected to do the same? Aren’t we just at much risk?

You have to consider the risk/reward of going back to work, for the majority of people the reward will unfortunately outweigh the risk, that isn't really true of multi millionaire footballers still getting paid.

Considering also:

Most places aren’t working in physical contact.
Most places can social distance
A lot of these people need to work to survive
A lot of places need to open for the country to run
Schools aren’t even going to be fully open

Football isn’t in any way essential. If kids can’t go to school, footballers being out playing a game is a bit mental.

[Crimey]

The comparison to those three events is ridiculous. That’s the stupidest argument I’ve heard yet.

What balance is there? The balance between prioritising finishing the season over lives, mental health, strain on services and health?

And why, and this one has always had a very clear answer, must we accept football back so soon and finish this specific season, if it’s just about the balance of the economy and restarting a semblance of normality? Why can 22 footballers get together in June when we aren’t even sure you’ll be able to meet family from outside your house?

I'm not talking about restarting the season in June, I'm talking about football coming back any time. If people are going to use footballers catching Covid as reason not to start football, then we can't have football until we have a vaccine and it's been rolled out or the disease naturally mutates and dies out (such as Spanish Flu or SARS). Neither of those are going to be happening any time soon, so we would be looking at 2022 at the latest. At which point, I'm not sure football as it exists currently would exist (whether that's a bad thing is up for argument.) 

There is risk involved all of the time in life, for footballers in a closed environment with no fans, in the outdoors it's not particularly high. If the risk is too high for that, then we're not getting football for a very long time.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

How about a bigger question Dolph, if we all have to go back to work then shouldn’t footballers be expected to do the same? Aren’t we just at much risk?

Firstly - we aren’t all expected to go back to the workplace
Secondly - football isn’t essential work

As for Crimey comparing a deadly respiratory virus to *food poisoning*

[hampo17]

But football isn’t coming back till June 1st at the earliest Olly, so if at that point we are told we can return to work then footballers aren’t any different.

[Soul Requiem]

Sorry guys you can't see your relatives at the moment but can you entertain me instead please.

I'm not sure why the difference between necessary risk and unnecessary risk isn't being understood, if football is to return then it should be the lower leagues not the premier league.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Risk and reward, as callous as that sounds, may come into it. There’s not even a semblance of need for it at the moment.

The rate of infection is far higher now than the hope would be in months, if done correctly. Ignoring how distasteful it would be for footballers to take up so much testing capacity when we can’t meet national targets, if you start a new season in September when the country should be in a better place and the season has time so that footballers aren’t mixing as much and as often, it’s far safer and far easier logistically too.

That too ignores developments in the science, treatment and just general information. You’ve got people who are two months removed from having it who are still struggling to live normal lives. Footballers might be right in thinking this could be an illness that, even ignoring deaths and such, could end or shorten their career.

The second a player gets it, the restart is done.

[Crimey]

How about a bigger question Dolph, if we all have to go back to work then shouldn’t footballers be expected to do the same? Aren’t we just at much risk?

As for Crimey comparing a deadly respiratory virus to *food poisoning*

Not really my point was it? My point is that there's plenty of examples where there is risk involved in playing football that is taken, despite how unessential football is. Specifically in this case, if we want to reduce the chances of footballers catching Covid to 0 then we can't have football until we have a vaccine or the virus dies out (neither of which are happening until at least 2021, more likely 2022 fully).

[Dolphin Ziggler]

But football isn’t coming back till June 1st at the earliest Olly, so if at that point we are told we can return to work then footballers aren’t any different.

Is everyone gonna be back at work in a similar capacity? I won’t be, there will be some form of school for children but extremely undefined and likely to be smaller groups within limited year groups returning. Is football more important than a child’s education and mental health now?

Some people were moaning that the English are being too lenient and not as strong as, I don’t know, the welsh government. But they seem happy to push back football in this country.

[Crimey]

The second a player gets it, the restart is done.

If that is the standard that is used, then football shouldn't return until a vaccine is developed. You cannot reduce the risk to zero otherwise and what would be the point of trying to have football, if the moment anybody gets it, football is done? 

This is my point. I don't know when football should come back but if the standard is that no footballer can catch it, then professional football will collapse (at all levels!)

[Crimey]

But football isn’t coming back till June 1st at the earliest Olly, so if at that point we are told we can return to work then footballers aren’t any different.

Is everyone gonna be back at work in a similar capacity? I won’t be, there will be some form of school for children but extremely undefined and likely to be smaller groups within limited year groups returning. Is football more important than a child’s education and mental health now?

The scale is different though. You're comparing thousands to tens of millions.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

The second a player gets it, the restart is done.

If that is the standard that is used, then football shouldn't return until a vaccine is developed. You cannot reduce the risk to zero otherwise and what would be the point of trying to have football, if the moment anybody gets it, football is done? 

This is my point. I don't know when football should come back but if the standard is that no footballer can catch it, then professional football will collapse (at all levels!)

In a world where they finish a season in around a month, Project Restart cannot handle the two weeks of a team, maybe two teams, being in quarantine. That’s why I mentioned logistics. That’s even before how ridiculous this change of conditions is in terms of “fairness and integrity.”

I’m not entirely sure what your comparison with thousands and millions means

[Crimey]

The second a player gets it, the restart is done.

If that is the standard that is used, then football shouldn't return until a vaccine is developed. You cannot reduce the risk to zero otherwise and what would be the point of trying to have football, if the moment anybody gets it, football is done? 

This is my point. I don't know when football should come back but if the standard is that no footballer can catch it, then professional football will collapse (at all levels!)

In a world where they finish a season in around a month, Project Restart cannot handle the two weeks of a team, maybe two teams, being in quarantine. That’s why I mentioned logistics. That’s even before how ridiculous this change of conditions is in terms of “fairness and integrity.”

I’m not entirely sure what your comparison with thousands and millions means

I'm not commenting on when the season should start or current season continue. I am commenting on the points that if a player catches Covid this is an argument that football shouldn't happen. If our standard for football restarting is that footballers can't catch it or a footballer catching it ends the season - then football won't be happening this year or likely next year. Whether that's the 19/20 season or 20/21 season or 21/22 season - if the standard for restarting football is footballers being unable to catch Covid then we have to wait until a vaccine. 

Football restarting involves thousands of people being more at risk, sending all children back to schools is tens of millions - doing the former before the latter doesn't mean children's education is less important than football just that the risk are lower.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I can’t really comment on when, I think any time when we’re still in these or similar conditions is too soon. I also think any timescale where missing a day or a week ruins it is too much. I also think we need time and a system in place that allows for clubs to have players away from the game who are not comfortable playing.

Whilst those numbers are true, the scale of importance is so weighted in the need for schooling and normal life, and it was more to highlight that we can’t even allow children to go to school, so how can we allow footballers to be tested every day and play twice a week? If the risk is considered too high for a fundamental human right, then you have to consider why it’s ok for footballers to be in constant physical contact

[Soul Requiem]

The need for testing is the sticking point for me, that is wasted capacity in my opinion that is better used elsewhere.

[GSC]

I would guess the PL will be sourcing their own tests rather than using ones already earmarked for key workers

[Duty281]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52726278

Stop the madness. Call it off.

[hampo17]

So are you saying don't return until there are no positive tests in the UK?

[Duty281]

So are you saying don't return until there are no positive tests in the UK?

Don't return until the pandemic is under control.

[westisbest]

You’ve got players like Deeney who don’t want to return for safety of his son and quite rightly so.

He’s probably Watford’s most dangerous player and they will be without him in a relegation scrap.

To early to start in June imo.

[GSC]

I do find the doom mongers a bit tiresome now. Think like most professions, where there's a will to make this happen, it will, like Germany or even the Championship for the most part. Most of the PL resistance really comes from those wanting to save their place on the money train.

[hampo17]

West if I turned round to my manager and said I'm not coming in I'd been shown the door.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

West if I turned round to my manager and said I'm not coming in I'd been shown the door.

You’re not a footballer. And if your work required constant physical contact with people and you were in a group where the deaths were seemingly disproportionately higher, you may ask questions.

[westisbest]

Depends what you do for  a living I suppose and what the situation is.

Football is very different to regular jobs.

[hampo17]

While I agree, as has been mentioned by the media and from players they'll be going in to the safest environment in the country.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I do find the doom mongers a bit tiresome now. Think like most professions, where there's a will to make this happen, it will, like Germany or even the Championship for the most part. Most of the PL resistance really comes from those wanting to save their place on the money train.

Yeah really tiresome those people who want to see their favourite footballers be safe and not to take unnecessary risk to just fulfill some fat cats TV contracts. What assholes

[Soul Requiem]

I've started to see the other side of it now, these players are only in a position to resist going back to work because of the those fat cat TV contracts so don't think it's quite that simple.

[GSC]

I do find the doom mongers a bit tiresome now. Think like most professions, where there's a will to make this happen, it will, like Germany or even the Championship for the most part. Most of the PL resistance really comes from those wanting to save their place on the money train.

Yeah really tiresome those people who want to see their favourite footballers be safe and not to take unnecessary risk to just fulfill some fat cats TV contracts. What assholes

Is that any different to any profession reopening next month?

As for the TV contracts, where do you think their salaries come from? All very well saying that but if you're not prepared to play and want your salary we enter having your cake and eating it territory.

Beyond tired of the PL saboteurs using this as a pr shield to protect their own financial self interests (at a club level). The real victims exist way further down the ladder.

[Soul Requiem]

It is quite simple now, if the players don't want to play then they get furloughed on £2,500 a month, we'll see how willing to refuse to play they are then. I have a degree of sympathy for them not wanting to risk the healths of family members but they should then be treated like everyone else in the country.

[GSC]

While I agree, as has been mentioned by the media and from players they'll be going in to the safest environment in the country.

Precisely. I think the figure mooted for the championship was around 5m for regular testing, they're much better looked after and informed of potential risks than someone on a building site or Tesco for example

[owen10ozzy]

It is quite simple now, if the players don't want to play then they get furloughed on £2,500 a month, we'll see how willing to refuse to play they are then. I have a degree of sympathy for them not wanting to risk the healths of family members but they should then be treated like everyone else in the country.

Nail on head right here!

These players get paid off the basis of tv deals and fan attendance in stadiums...that is payed forward on the basis of them completing matches. The fact of the matter is that isnt happening right now....not only that the players arent training either. Another aspect with which their job entails. So effectively the contractual part of their job descriptions arent being met...so why on earth should they be getting paid in full?

If you dont want to play football or you feel like it is too high a risk for either yourself or your family then i have no problem with that at all.... but then for me it should be a case of their contracts being null and void (on a temporary basis) until they resume playing again.

What really sticks in my throat is that i have heard many players saying they are being treated like guinea pigs or lab rats? What on earth! This is where you distance yourselves and lose all sympathy! Your being asked to return to a sport where by you will get weekly testing...be asked to work/train within guidelines set out to best increase the safety and health of yourselves....christ the premier league has even set about attempting to get face masks (oxygen style training types) made and readily available for use during training.

Yet your telling me you feel like guinea pigs! Let us not forget that this virus is vastly more under control than it was 10 weeks ago.....when the likes of carers and nurses and shop workers were being asked to deal with it.

Ive been let go from my job (teacher) without furlough (due to contract expiring at end of term) so have had to get a job at tesco....my partner is a carer. For 10 weeks we have worked at the worst time of this pandemic....for much of the first 5 weeks without adequete PPE (my partners workplace has been brilliant in comparison to many) my local tesco hasnt got in any PPE equipment except for cheap gloves which are of little use anyway. All during this we have been in much closer contact than most of these footballers will (and less we forget its close contact for maybe 3 hours a day maximum while training...and 95 minutes for a match...oh the stress) Jesus...my average shift is 10 hrs...my partners 14...and i can tell you now we have far closer contact with people than they will have to face!

Im in no hurry for football or sport to return in general...yes i miss it but like most things people miss atm its all rather superficial and if we cant have it then so be it. But dont sit in your million pound mansions and moan about feeling under pressure to go back to playing all the while whinging you feel like guinea pigs when the situation you will go back to playing is far safer than most peoples.....your being rewarded to do so with far more money than most people....and during the 10 weeks of this virus so far havent lost a penny...which is more than plenty of non playing staff members within the footballing leagues!!

Your being asked to go back and entertain millions of people up and down the country for the price of thousands of pounds per week.....poor you....because im lucky and get asked to work everyday to ensure people have access to beer that they dont need....bbqs that they could go without all while being paid 9 quid an hour...oh and i get a clap of recognition for 1 minute every thursday!!

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Sadly, that is all Frak nonsense.

They are being treated like guinea pigs, and they’re also being used as political tools. They’re being used in the media too, and then spat up and chewed out by people who should have a level of education to know better but swallow whole information if it suits their agenda.

I don’t think there are any quotes from players saying “don’t play me but pay me” but because they have wealth, it is decided that is their attitude.

They are concerned that they and their families are being put at risk. Is that wrong of them?

That risk is not because it’s necessary - like supermarkets are, carers and other jobs too - but because of a notion that the nation needs entertainment. Jesters. Next we’ll be demanding ensemble cast sitcoms. I don’t care that Friends is over, Joey can wear a face mask and I’ll be damned if I have to read a book!

The greed question is interesting. All owners of Premier League clubs could handle the tv money refunds.

Equally, they’re not saying never, they’re saying maybe not yet, not until you have proven I can be safe, my family won’t be affected and my mental health isn’t compromised.

Inequality in care homes, working conditions at Tesco and a lack of funding in education are not down to football. Hell, you take out the money footballers create in taxes and you might worry then where things might be.

I’d be reasonably happy to see West Ham relegated, but there’s such a selfish attitude around this debate it’s unreal. And the worst is that one side seem to think they aren’t. The “pro” return side seem to think themselves more concerned for all, when really it’s just what they want. Owen here has just made an argument that is basically that rich people should shut up.

It’s the same nonsense you get fed in the papers. I see today that teaching unions are the villains again. I do hope we are treating teachers the same way. I do hope you think they should get back to work or lose their salaries. Granted, my first year of teaching was £22k so I’d take £2500 a month to not work...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Also it’s you’re, not your, standards of teaching in this country clearly down the pan

[hampo17]

Are teachers going to get tested regularly? Are the 15/20 kids the allow back to school? The comparison between the services that the footballers are going to be getting, which is coming at a cost of £4m to the league, is over and above what every other industry is going to get.

[owen10ozzy]

Well plenty of teachers are out of work actually Dolph....plenty of teachers (like myself) and various TA's run on termly contracts which would usually be renewed yet due to circumstances have not. Thus they are out of work...so not teaching not getting paid! And no I from what i have seen no players have said that, but nor have any of them come out and said they were willing to forego salary due to the fact they aren't doing their jobs....or have flat out refused to take pay cuts such as one Mr Ozil for example.

Also can i ask what makes you have any notion they are being treated as guinea pigs? What exactly are they testing that hasnt already been tested? Are they trying vaccines? No...are they first to go back to work during these times? No....are they the first sports persons/athletes to go back to doing their jobs? No. So....they are guinea pigs in what sense?

And where have i said they shut up? I have stated i am sick of hearing the lack of actual sense in what they are saying.

Do you believe that people in a position of
privilege shouldnt be more thoughtful in what or how they say things? Of course they should....just like i would be careful when speaking about something I didnt have experience of...I wouldn't wade into a conversation about slavery with someone who had been through it without stepping back and thinking of what i was saying and how it could be percieved.

Talking as if them going back to play football is shocking or is inconsiderate of fans/people to ask of them? Same as the talk about worrying about health and mental health that may occur if they do.

Of course you can be worried about it....but to speak about it as they do...as if they are being tasked with putting themselves in harms way and they are the only ones (which is how many of them actually come across in their interviews etc) when millions are doing it right now without fundamental things i.e. equipment...councillors...therapists etc on hand to help (all of which the premier league and clubs would ensure were on hand for these people and the very best of it) that just sticks in my throat.

And lets just put this out there now....yes supermarkets are essential....beer is not...clothes are not...garden equipment is not...the list goes on.

Could you imagine the uproar in this country if enough shop workers said we are only willing to work 3 days week and we are only willing to serve those who actually buy essential goods. People would go berserk. Id guarantee almost all of you who have commented have bought stuff that is absolutely not essential during these ten weeks....that to me is no different to footballers playing football...boxers boxing...or any other thing deemed non essential.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I’m a teacher out of work, Owen. I’m also a teacher who has worked in schools who cannot afford to have enough teachers for the classes they have, so I’m not someone who has recently found out that the money in education isn’t there. Schools don't want to be getting rid of you, but the government has left them no option (in so many ways). Let's not start the lecturing on the education system as I've been involved in it a long time and don't need the lesson.

As for the Ozil comment, I respect that a man who donates vast amounts to charity and does a lot of charity work would question why he is allowing his club to take that money and keep it without showing and explaining where it goes. You're gonna need to do some further reading before you spread unnecessary hate.

It’s also a really daft comparison. Not on salary, where outrage is just silly, but in necessity. The economy, which affects the normal people, will need education to get going to restart. And children will need it for their development. There is absolutely no level of comparison a sane person can make on the importance of getting schools back and the importance of footballers playing football. You might even argue it is rather naive to start things like this at the same time, because if schools open and things go wrong, sectors like football also becoming part of the need in healthcare will be ridiculous.

Teachers won’t get the testing (although I would imagine they are immediately key workers and allowed to) easily and provided, the schools will not be safe. I don’t know what point anyone thinks that makes. They shouldn’t be opening if they feel provisions aren’t safe enough, and I see some councils are refusing government orders to open them.

Many schools will also be refusing to open to the expectations demanded. Although if you ask the Daily Mail, that’s because evil unions aren’t accepting our demands to get back to work.

Which leads me back to my point about the power of the press and the way some people swallow it up.

Already, I see people moaning about the players who aren't prepared to lower their salaries yet want to play. This notion is based on nothing but a resentment that has come from messages of the press.

You seem clearly perturbed by footballers having opinions about their health and safety. Yet you bleat about their pay and compare them to supermarket workers. You quite clearly want them to shut up and tow the line. It is ignorant. How you then compare it to slavery is baffling. They are talking about their safety and needs, I imagine they understand it pretty well.

It is inconsiderate to berate them as rich and greedy when they are concerned. It is not comparable to be concerned for their mental health. Those are not two comparable things you have just said and I am again baffled.

They are saying such because they are not essential. They are never claim they are the only ones, they are claiming they are not essential so do not want to work until they are satisfied of their safety. How can you not consider that a good attitude? You know who are doing the same thing? Teaching Unions.

The supermarkets want those things sold, you need to work on where you focus your rage. Would I support shops being open less time if it made sure their staff were safe? Yes, I would do. The essential good part, well it's not hard to decipher. First being that the shops are keeping these things for sale because they want the money. It is also good for the economy that some businesses can continue as such. Lastly, it will be the risk involved in the extra 5 minutes somewhere is there is so minuscule that they have decided it is for people to take.

I don't even want to think why you are so anti someone like Deeney wanting to delay until he feels comfortable with the safety measures and situation for the health of himself, his family and his peers, especially in light of BAME implications currently, and especially considering they are worried about long term impact to a player's career if they catch this virus.

The vitriol in recent opinions on here to even something as simple of that says a lot about you as people, none of it good.

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