England World Cup Warm Ups

First topic message reminder :

Don't expect the snazzy pics produced on better match threads!

England Wales 11th August
Wales England 17th August
England Ireland 24th August
England Italy 6th September.

Squad for the world cup is due 2nd September so theres a chance the 1st 3 could be used for selection purposes and likely to see some combos not considered 1st choice.

BBC saving me typing:

England: Daly; McConnochie, Slade, Francis, Watson; Ford, Heinz; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Cole, Launchbury, Ewels, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Singleton, Marler, Williams, Kruis, Ludlam, Youngs, Marchant, Cokanasiga.

Wales: L Williams; North, J Davies, Parkes, Adams; Anscombe, G Davies; Smith, Owens, Francis, Beard, Jones, Wainwright, Tipuric, Moriarty.

Replacements: Dee, Jones, Lewis, Ball, Shingler, T Williams, Biggar, Watkin.

hugehandoff wrote:And does the Wales selection mean that they effectively swap for the return fixture? Did Eddie and Warren agree this approach?

I wondered about this think you might be onto something

Thinks it's more a case of both sets of coaches wanting to give their squads game time but not wanting to risk losing at home. Hence we were always likely to see near first choice from the home side and massively rotated teams from the away sides for these two fixtures.

The England squad is named before the next fixture as well so the 23 for the Twickenham game will be solely made up of those in the original 31-man RWC squad.

king_carlos wrote:Thinks it's more a case of both sets of coaches wanting to give their squads game time but not wanting to risk losing at home. Hence we were always likely to see near first choice from the home side and massively rotated teams from the away sides for these two fixtures.

The England squad is named before the next fixture as well so the 23 for the Twickenham game will be solely made up of those in the original 31-man RWC squad.

First game is at Twix...is this Jones first choice side??

The thing I really like about this line-up against Wales is that nobody is expecting them to do well. So if we come out of this game with a win, narrow or otherwise, what will it do for our mental state, and what will it do to Wales'??

I have a sneaking suspicion that Eddie's played a clever selection game here. If England get an early score and start to gel, it could be a very interesting match. Ford is way more exciting than Farrell, so will they throw caution to the wind? I am looking forward to it whatever. And if there's a couple of controversial cards, then all bets are off!

Mr Bounce wrote:The thing I really like about this line-up against Wales is that nobody is expecting them to do well. So if we come out of this game with a win, narrow or otherwise, what will it do for our mental state, and what will it do to Wales'??

I have a sneaking suspicion that Eddie's played a clever selection game here. If England get an early score and start to gel, it could be a very interesting match. Ford is way more exciting than Farrell, so will they throw caution to the wind? I am looking forward to it whatever. And if there's a couple of controversial cards, then all bets are off!

That made me look up who the officials are for this match:

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant 1: Pascal Gauzere (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Brian MacNeice (Ireland)

Interesting that they're all French. Is that allowed in a RWC?

It’s still a good England team. The backline looks like it’s set up to kick and chase though, against a team good at the up n’ unders. There’s isn’t really any experimentation we require at this point. It’s more a case of reintroduce players previously injured, give players more game time (Watkin for example), introduce some new caps (Owen Lane on the wing). I still believe Biggar is our best fly-half, and it wouldn’t surprise me to see the pressure get to Anscombe here.

Pie wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Thinks it's more a case of both sets of coaches wanting to give their squads game time but not wanting to risk losing at home. Hence we were always likely to see near first choice from the home side and massively rotated teams from the away sides for these two fixtures.

The England squad is named before the next fixture as well so the 23 for the Twickenham game will be solely made up of those in the original 31-man RWC squad.

First game is at Twix...is this Jones first choice side??

Apologies, thought it was the other way round. It will be interesting to see what side Gatland goes for at Millenium then.

If you're referring to my pointing out the poster got his argument in reverse then I think that shows you up as in need of moderating as it assumes that you think Welsh posters aren't allowed to post on threads about England?

6.Curry
7.Underhill
8.Vunipola

vs

6.Wainwright
7.Tipuric
8.Moriarty

That's an enticing back row battle. The bench options of a returning Shingler and Ludlam making a potential debut are interesting to see as well.

Its be nice to see ludlam get on the pitch Carlos. Jones has been reluctant to use the bench the last 6ns which is not how he started. If we're going well hope he drops him in.

Pie wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:There's not a lot to gain for Wales with their selection.

So much to gain

Win is 15/15

Beat potential 1/4 opponent at home

Momentum

Make Eddie's squad selection face an acid test in a week

In the context of bragging rights, then yes. In the context of RWC preparation, not really. I can't see that Gatland is going to learn much from this fixture, other than whether his first XV are in form.

Meanwhile, Eddie is has all but said that he's more interested in learning about how his fringe players cope with a full blooded test than in winning.

I'd also add that, knowing Gatland's preparation approach, there is a high likelihood that in this first hit out the Welsh players will not have started their taper and may well be a bit sluggish. I can't think of a time when one of his teams has hit its first game of the season all guns blazing.

Poorfour wrote:

Pie wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:There's not a lot to gain for Wales with their selection.

So much to gain

Win is 15/15

Beat potential 1/4 opponent at home

Momentum

Make Eddie's squad selection face an acid test in a week

In the context of bragging rights, then yes. In the context of RWC preparation, not really. I can't see that Gatland is going to learn much from this fixture, other than whether his first XV are in form.

Meanwhile, Eddie is has all but said that he's more interested in learning about how his fringe players cope with a full blooded test than in winning.

I'd also add that, knowing Gatland's preparation approach, there is a high likelihood that in this first hit out the Welsh players will not have started their taper and may well be a bit sluggish. I can't think of a time when one of his teams has hit its first game of the season all guns blazing.

First game in charge mate.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/7215056.stm

England did largely the same thing ahead of the previous two world cups playing double headers against France and Wales, the home fixture picking more fringe players the away one something more like a first choice side. This is not any great crime against humaity/masterplan Jones has come up with to ruin rugby for everyone.

Gooseberry wrote:England did largely the same thing ahead of the previous two world cups playing double headers against France and Wales,  the home fixture picking more fringe players the away one something more like a first choice side. This is not any great crime against humaity/masterplan Jones has come up with to ruin rugby for everyone.  

Does anyone honestly believe it’s a Poopie England team? That lineup would compete well in the 6N, top 3 finish at least.

Wierd that Francis is seen as a potential RWC quality 12/10 but Cipriani isn't.

Ewells and Heinz as well are just odd picks.

All in all a mishmash of an England team, should this have been happening in the 6Ns and last year? What does this team tell us about the players when it's so far from the actual England team? Almost feels like Ford is set up to struggle.

Isn't it a bit too late to be experimenting to this extent. A bad loss at home is still that. On t'other hand you know he'll put out his first choice in Cardiff next week...as will Wales as this whole week is about replicating a 6 day turnaround.

yappysnap wrote:Wierd that Francis is seen as a potential RWC quality 12/10 but Cipriani isn't.

Ewells and Heinz as well are just odd picks.

All in all a mishmash of an England team, should this have been happening in the 6Ns and last year? What does this team tell us about the players when it's so far from the actual England team? Almost feels like Ford is set up to struggle.

Cipriani is the kind of player you have to build a team around, because he will play his game and react to what he sees rather than follow a process. That's fine at club level, but much harder to manage at international level where you need a consistent strategy across your options. Also, he can't cover 12 (though he would be better cover at 15 than most of the options Eddie has left himself).

Francis, on the other hand, can follow a system and is a reasonable replacement for Farrell at 12 and an acceptable stopgap at 10.

You would trust Francis to run a game against the USA or Tonga at 10 if Farrell and Ford had niggles or needed to be rested, whereas Cipriani would be disruptive if that were what he were there to do. But if Farrell or Ford were out for the tournament I would expect Cipriani to get the call.

I think that is exactly right, Francis is there because he will fit quietly in, I would expect to see him at 10 sometime on Sunday. I am not so sure how Eddie rates him versus Te’o though, Te’o has always been a bit of a favourite for him, but can’t step in at 10. Would also mean ditching the Te’o Manu combo and presumably Manu becomes main man at 12

Not read above so apologies if already mentioned - NZ media are saying Brown & Te'o were let go following a training ground confrontation in Italy....
Does anyone know any facts?

The Times has reported Te'o and Brown were involved in a brawl during an evening team building event. 

Gats has stated, in response to criticism by Old guys like JPR, that the 4 game warm up they have is not ideal. He has stated that discussions have been had with Schmidt to agree selection ethos but no discussions were had with Eddie.

Seen Francis at 10 on a few occasions for Saints, usually due to others being injured, capable but not going to set the world on fire from there.

What I am looking forward to is Prince Harry getting back next season, although he has stated his preference for 15(he has a lot of competition there with Saints), he has the potential to be the best 12 in England, if he hadn't busted his knee and been out for the season, he had a good chance of being in the 12 shirt for the RWC.

Anyone got any info on how his recovery has gone?

LondonTiger wrote:The Times has reported Te'o and Brown were involved in a brawl during an evening team building event. 

Given Brown is 33 and Te'o 32 that would be a pretty pathetic story all round, sadly.

England lose Slade, Underhill and McConnochie for Sunday. BBC Report as follows:

England trio Henry Slade, Sam Underhill and Ruaridh McConnochie have been ruled out of the World Cup warm-up game against Wales at Twickenham on Sunday.

Wing Ruaridh McConnochie was set to make his England debut but has a hip injury.

Flanker Underhill and centre Slade were also expected to start but have respective knee and toe problems.

Joe Cokanasiga, Jonathan Joseph and Lewis Ludlum will now start in the first of four warm-up games.

Northampton flanker Ludlam was originally due to make his debut off the bench.

England sevens star McConnochie only switched to the XV-a-side version last summer.

His absence against Wales will mean he misses a chance to impress before England head coach Eddie Jones names his final 31-man World Cup squad on Monday.

Meanwhile, Jones has refused to confirm a report in The Times that an altercation took place between Mike Brown and Ben Te'o during the side's training camp in Treviso.

The Rugby Football Union admitted an incident did happen in Treviso.

Jones said: "No I'm not able to confirm that. I'm not able to confirm. I think I've answered the question."


BBC

That EJ jinx again, coming up for the match and suddenly 3 injured players. lets hope thay are all minor or precautionary.

No mention of who replaces them on the bench.

Makes England,s back look a little better, JJ on form is a s good as anyone, JC will cause problems as well.

Underhill will be missed, Ludlam is a very different sort of of player, he doesn't have the physicality of Underhill.

Dear God, 3 injuries and a punch-up, before a whistle has been blown. Amateur night, much?

Big shame for Underhill and Curry to not play together. Surely the new winger is toast and has missed his one chance? You cannot select someone for a RWC who has not made his debut yet unless some amazing talent stands out. And Wales just want to give their top team some decent away match practice to replicate being on the road. Roles should reverse next week.

I’m expecting a decent size win for England tomorrow. 5 tries to one and around 20 points in it.

Well Slade being replaced by Joseph isn't exactly a step down in class and he's superb at defence. And let's face it, we probably all wanted Big Joe to start anyway! The only one I am not sure about is Ludlam - he's either going to sink or swim.

Bringing in Lawes for Ludlam on the bench shows he'll likely be a 5/6 replacement and Tuilagi as 23 will probably be on for Joseph, maybe at about 60 minutes.

I still think that this will be a very interesting game. Wales have all the pressure of obtaining that #1 in the World. England do not have much pressure at all. If England get set early and play well, I can see a win. Will they? Not sure.

hugehandoff wrote:Big shame for Underhill and Curry to not play together. Surely the new winger is toast and has missed his one chance? You cannot select someone for a RWC who has not made his debut yet unless some amazing talent stands out. And Wales just want to give their top team some decent away match practice to replicate being on the road.  Roles should reverse next week.

Unless Gats has said otherwise I don’t think he’ll make wholesale changes. He should rest AWJ, North and maybe one or two others though. All of those guys have good replacements. England and then Ireland at home I think will be seen as a target to build more momentum. Too bad about your injuries but good luck for tomorrow!

I think England look stronger actually. Joseph, Watson, Daly. Cokanasiga....thats some real fizz. Can half backs provide the platform? I think Farrell should be on the bench as I think he main weakness is 10/12. Will be one helluva game either way with Wales keen to maintain momentum and England individually wanting to make an impact on selection. You'd expect Wales to win.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Dear God, 3 injuries and a punch-up, before a whistle has been blown. Amateur night, much?

Im sure all of the squads have incidents where players flare up. No grey surprise when the pressure is applied so hard in these pre Rwc camps.

From what I heard this morning, the whole squad were out on a social with a fair bit of booze flowing and Teo was the one who got steamed and aggressive, Brown hardly drinks alcohol and remained very sober, but he is not the sort to back down.

Probably decided if Teo was going to make the cut or not, leaves a space for Brown, but we really need another 12, Teo is the only specialist crash ball 12 we have, probably be Francis and Manu in those shirts now.

Just noticed that Ludlam is playing at 6, feel for him, not the best way to get your first cap, out of position and with no chance to show what you can do 2 days before the squad is cut.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:From what I heard this morning, the whole squad were out on a social with a fair bit of booze flowing and Teo was the one who got steamed and aggressive, Brown hardly drinks alcohol and remained very sober, but he is not the sort to back down.

Probably decided if Teo was going to make the cut or not, leaves a space for Brown, but we really need another 12, Teo is the only specialist crash ball 12 we have, probably be Francis and Manu in those shirts now.

That doesn’t sound good preparation at all?

From what I read I presumed it was a training pitch scuffle not a night on the lash so close to a big game.

Didn't Te'o and Brown get cut in the latest squad announcement on Monday? So the night out would have been at least a week before the game.

Pie wrote:I think England look stronger actually. Joseph, Watson, Daly. Cokanasiga....thats some real fizz. Can  half backs provide the platform? I think Farrell should be on the bench as I think he main weakness is 10/12. Will be one helluva game either way with Wales keen to maintain momentum and England individually wanting to make an impact on selection. You'd expect Wales to win.

Well if you want fizz you don't want Farrell it's an area where he still struggles. If you want cold calculation then you want Farrell. There's talk Eddie intends to whittle down the squad earlier than most so I assume this game is giving a lot of the possible inclusions a chance to show what they can do.

As for weakness Ford was fantastic for last season and is largely the reason Tigers aren't in the Championship. I presume the only reason Francis is there is because he can play 10 and 12. He might well find game time more limited at club next season. Joseph Vs Marchant for what is probably the last centre spot available as well as you'd assume Manu, Slade plus one more will go with Farrell able to step in at 12.

Wow - good start for England. Surprised Wales let them make ground so easily but don't expect it to continue like this ... Still have Wales as favourites.

Close one - could have gone either way - ball ended up on the ground but guess not possible to see if an England player still had possession ... tough call to make.

But didn't matter in the end ...

Very dominant start from England, almost error-free so far. Curry and Vunipola absolutely immense.

Hope England can keep this up

2nds looking good so far.

But you know Wales will come back ...

An intercept or two might be on the cards.

Wasn't even a Welsh scrum

Yep - wrong call for the knock-on, came back off Wales arm ..

But poor defence from England.

Stuart Barnes doesn't half talk rubbish. 'England are great when on top of teams but not in tight situations'. Forgotten Scotland already?

Going to sleep a bit when Wales go quick.