Leicester Tigers 2019-20

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures


September
13th Misc - Premiership Sevens, Pool Fixtures
14th Misc - Premiership Sevens, KO Fixtures
21st 15:00 - Worcester (a), Premiership Cup
27th 19:45 - Exeter (h), Premiership Cup

October
 5th 15:00 - Bath (a), Premiership Cup
12th 15:00 - Northampton (h), Premiership Cup
19th 15:00 - Worcester (a), Gallagher Premiership
27th 15:00 - Saracens (h), Gallagher Premiership

November
 2nd 15:00 - Gloucester (h), Gallagher Premiership
10th 15:00 - London Irish (a), Gallagher Premiership
16th 15:00 - Pau (h), Challenge Cup
23rd 20:00 - Cardiff (a), Challenge Cup
30th 15:00 - Northampton (a), Gallagher Premiership

December
 7th 15:00 - Calvisano (h), Challenge Cup
14th 13:30 - Calvisano (a), Challenge Cup
21st 15:00 - Exeter (h), Gallagher Premiership
28th 16:30 - Harlequins (a - Twickenham), Gallagher Premiership

January
 4th 15:00 - Bristol (h), Gallagher Premiership
12th 15:15 - Cardiff (h), Challenge Cup
17/18/19 - Pau (a), Challenge Cup
24/25/26 - Bath (a), Gallagher Premiership

February
14/15/16 - Wasps (h), Gallagher Premiership
21/21/23 - Sale (a), Gallagher Premiership
28/29/01 - Worcester (h), Gallagher Premiership

March
6/7/8 - Saracens (a), Gallagher Premiership
20/21/22 - Exeter (a), Gallagher Premiership
27/28/29 - Beth (h), Gallagher Premiership


April
3/4/5 - Castres (h), Challenge Cup 1/4 Final
10/11/12 - London Irish (h), Gallagher Premiership
17/18/19 - Gloucester (a), Gallagher Premiership
24/25/26 - Sale (h), Gallagher Premiership

May
8/9/10 - Wasps (a), Gallagher Premiership
15/16/17 - Northampton (h), Gallagher Premiership
29/30/31 - Bristol (a), Gallagher Premiership

June
5/6/7 - Harlequins (h), Gallagher Premiership


Squad & Coaching Team


Head Coach: Geordan Murphy
Forwards Coach: Mark Bakewell
Attack Coach: Mike Ford
Defence Coach: Phil Blake
Scrum Coach: Boris Stankovich
Senior Development coach: Brett Deacon
Team Manager: Teresa Carrington


First Team Squad:
Props (8): Greg Bateman, Dan Cole, Gaston Cortes, Ellis Genge, Facundo Gigena, Joe Heyes, Owen Hills, Nephi Leatigaga
Hookers (5): Charlie Clare, Jake Kerr, Tatafu Polota-Nau, Jimmy Stevens, Tom Youngs
Second Row (4): Calum Green, Tomas Lavanini, Will Spencer, Harry Wells
Back Row (8): Jordan Coghlan, Dave Denston, Sione Kalamafoni, Sam Lewis, Hanro Liebenberg, Tommy Reffell, Jordan Taufua, Guy Thompson
Half Backs: (8)Sam Harrison, Harry Simmons, Ben White, Ben Youngs, George Ford, Tom Hardwicke, Johnny McPhillips, Noel Reid
Outside Backs (13): Sam Aspland-Robinson, Kyle Eastmond, Andy Forsyth, Jonah Holmes, Jonny May, Jordan Olowofela, Jaco Taute, Joe Thomas, Adam Thompstone, Manu Tuilagi, Telusa Veainu, EW Viljoen, George Worth

Development Squad:
Props (3): Osman Dimen, Keston Lines, James Whitcombe
Hookers (0):
Second Row (3): Cameron Jordan, Tom Manz, George Martin
Back Row (5): Ollie Ashwoth, Sam Eveleigh, Taylor Gough, Henri Lavin, Thom Smith
Half Backs (3): Jonny Law, Jack van Poortvliet, Sam Costelow
Outside Backs (4): Joe Browning, Kyran Bungaroo, Leo Gilliland, Freddie Steward

Taufua and Martin are both requiring surgery for knee injuries. MCL for Martin and Smurf says he likely won't be back until the New Year. Taufua sounds less serious with Murphy saying that he will miss the Toulon and likely the remaining Premiership games as well. Hopefully fit near the start of the new season then.

Taufua will be a big blow against Toulon - if it goes ahead of course. With Etzebeth and Belleau injured thei back row is the one area I look at and really worry about. Presumably we will continue with Wells, Reffell and Liebenberg with Wallace on the bench. Still a good back row but Ollivon, Isa, Lakafia and Parisse is some fire power.

Bad luck for Martin just as he was coming in and showing off what a great prospect he is. Taufua I'm not surprised about as he's had lots of strapping on his knee for the last few sub appearances.

Going to be a tough one for the backrow Vs Toloun but our right five should be able to really take it to them and will hopefully force their backrow into a lot of hard graft they don't want to be doing. We'll need Youngs and Ford on it with the tactical kicking as well.

Yes, it's a real shame for Martin. He looked really good in his start out of position at blindside. With Brink and Wiese still to debut there will hopefully be a strong pack for him to play in when fit.

It's noticeable with recruitment that we now seem to be targeting more players who will be available all season. Brink, Wiese, Bonilla, Scott and van Wyk are all very good players but unlikely to miss a lot of rugby for internationals. Gigena and Liebenberg arguably in that bracket too.

Nadolo is retired currently but I do wonder if he will play international rugby again before his career is done. Similarly Taufua isn't an international currently but if he got the chance to play through Samoa I'd presume he would take it.

9.White 10.Henry 11.Nadolo 12.Scott 13.Porter 14.van Wyk 15.Steward

21.Simmons 22.Bonilla 23.Taute

Even if Youngs, Ford, Moroni and Murimurivalu are lost to international duty at the same time we could still field that backline. It's a step-up on what we could field during international periods in recent years. Good recruitment, McGinity doing his job well.

Fixtures up for next season, sounds like we will be missing England players for 11 of the first 14 rounds of fixtures.

Clashes with internationals: Gloucester (H), London Irish (A), Exeter (H), Worcester (H), Harlequins (A), Bristol (A), Gloucester (A), Exeter (A)

Rest weekends where players might stay in camp: Sale (H), Wasps (H), London Irish (H)

Outside the international windows: Falcons (A), Bath (H), Saints (A), Falcons (H), Saints (H), Sale (A), Harlequins (H), Worcester (A), Wasps (A)

Both Falcons games being outside the international windows could be important in the potential relegation battle if we don't improve a lot. Conversely both London Irish games could see us lose Youngs and Ford in particular.

The rest weekends where England starters might stay in camp falling on three home games will mean that the coaches will be desperate to get someone like Genge released who might be on the bench.

Ben White and Zack Henry looking ready to start Premiership games is even more important looking at the schedule. Signings like Brink, Wiese, Nadolo and van Wyk who will be available all season equally so.

Good old unions making a complete hash of it as usual. Mess about, don't consult with the clubs. When the clubs announce their fixtures plant a huge made up tournament which is a shameless money grab right over what should be rest and pre season. 

If our Pumas are not called up we should largely be ok as we'll lose only Genge, Youngs and Ford. The club have seemingly been planning for this as we now have three alternative looseheads in Gigena, Leatigaga and Bower. Three alternative scrum halfs in White, Simmons and JVP. Three alternative flyhalves in Henry, Bonilla and McPhillips. If Scott gets called up we can use Taute, Hardwick or Worth at 12. Better options than in prior years. Murimurivalu bring called up by Fiji will be an annoyance but Potter and Steward have both shown up really well so far.

If Argentina don't select European based Pumas which given Covid travel restrictions may be easier than changing policy then we keep Gigena and Lavanini and we'll be manage. Were we to lose Gigena then we'd be a little short on senior propping options.

LI will be a tough fixture over that period because they'll have a full strength side out with no likely caps. Gloucester will lose players but probably only on areas of strength like the back three and backrow so they'll be tough if they can recruit a little more. I think Skivs has quite a job on his hands. Exeter home and away might actually help is a little, we've been in tough games where they've eventually worn us down and ended up putting us to the sword. Missing probably half a dozen first team players might hit them a little bit and give us an edge to at least get some bonus points (losing bonus points).

Winning bonus points is an important step for this side. 1 TBP and 1 LBP from 20 games so far this season. London Irish have scored 6 TBPs. Worcester meanwhile have 6 LBPs to their name.

If we are dragged into another relegation battle then they could be vital.

With Matera, Petti, Alemanno, Kremer, Lavanini, Isa and Creevy now abroad from the Pumas impressive pack I really so no chance they won't pick the European based players. Montoya is rumoured to be in talks with Tigers and Western Force as well. Given the Jaguares apparently told players they could consider overseas contracts given they have no idea when the Jags will next have games it would be even more surprising if they shot themselves in the foot.

Smurf confirmed in radio interview that Hardwick and Olowofela are fit and available, just other players putting their hands up.

With no Championship games in sight and the two of them a way off challenging the first team when there's one game a week it's hard to see how they turn things around in the near future.

Borthwick and Murphy seem to want a meritocracy, if they put their hands up in training then they might get another go. Hardwick switching to 12 and being asked to lead the defence I think needs game time. Owolfela just looks like his confidence is shot. 

You're right they might get another game until winter. Nottingham are semi pro these days though so will probably gladly except any players we want to give game time to and those two should be too good for the Championship but the experience will do them good.

Telegraph wrote:In grim conditions, Leicester kicked 36 times. This was only twice more than their opponents. But they only threw 40 passes. Bristol completed 222. Tigers played like a team whose attack has not been a priority in training. That becomes a problem when you are inferior in other areas. And, most painfully for fans, a lack of invention in defeat sometimes resembles surrender.

40 passes in 80 minutes of rugby. Diabolical.

king_carlos wrote:

Telegraph wrote:In grim conditions, Leicester kicked 36 times. This was only twice more than their opponents. But they only threw 40 passes. Bristol completed 222. Tigers played like a team whose attack has not been a priority in training. That becomes a problem when you are inferior in other areas. And, most painfully for fans, a lack of invention in defeat sometimes resembles surrender.

40 passes in 80 minutes of rugby. Diabolical.

I thought we kicked well to compete and our defence forces errors. When we got the ball in their third of the pitch the lack of ambition was pathetic. No one really showed up or stepped forward. Then came the awful individual indiscipline...

I also wonder how many of those passes were White to Henry so he could kick...

To be honest I thought the kicking was average. Adelokun looked shaky under kicks but most were too long to contest.

Similar views with defence as well. There have been improvements in the line speed and aggression on fringe defence but we have given away penalties as a result. Ruck work to slow the opposition down has been better too (especially from Reffell, Wallace and Leatigaga) but again discipline has been poor. Then the defence in the outside backs has still be dire.

Bristol did make a lot of errors in the second half when the rain came down but that was more conditions I think.

As my uncle said, "the defence has improved so much that teams usually get their TBP in the second half now".

Gigena not in the Pumas squad which is good news.

Less good is that Lavanini will be out until the New Year. Moroni has sprained ankle ligaments and will miss the Rugby Championship so seems a similar time span to Lavanini. Finally, Bonilla is in the squad.

Bonilla the cover for the international period is in the Pumas squad? FFS. Hopefully we can get Moroni over earlier and he can rehab here and work on his English and integration to the squad.

Murimurivalu has been left out of a young Fiji squad that Vern Cotter has named. That could be particularly important with Moroni likely unavailable until the new year. I quite like Murimurivalu at 13.

9.White 10.Henry 11.Nadolo 12.Scott 13.Murimurivalu 14.van Wyk 15.Steward
21.Simmons 22.Hardwick/McPhillips 23.Taute

That backline should be available during the 8 Nations. Bonilla being called up by the Pumas hits the fly-half depth but it's still a better looking backline than we've had during international periods for a fair while.

McPhillips has never looked a Premiership fly-half whilst here so hopefully Hardwick can show some form.

Murphy has talked up Hardwick as a 12 and has said that's where he's concentrating. Still better bench cover than McPhillips. Bonilla call up is definitely a blow.

Murimurivalu might revert to wing and van Wyk could come in to 13 where he's played before once he's settled in a bit more. Certainly should give us a better team than in recent international periods as you say.

Gigena, Youngs, Cole
Wells, Green
Brink, Liebenburg, Reffell
White, Henry
Scott, van Wyk
Nadolo, Steward, Murimurivalu

Mamukashvili, Leatigaga, Heyes, Weisse, Wallace, JVP, Hardwick, Taute.

Not too shabby at all, allowing for the injuries to Taufua and Lavanini who might hopefully return earlier.

Georgia are in the 8 Nations so Mamukashvili will surely be called up by them. A shame for Tigers as I thought he looked busy off the bench. Clare has been in good form though. Kerr looks like he's lost a bit of weight over the lockdown, perhaps underpowered since the restart.

I don't think Samoa have any fixtures in the Autumn though so that should mean we have Leatigaga available. Gigena not being called up is a blessing for us as well with only 6 props in the senior squad.

With Lavanini and Taufua injured, then Genge presumably with England we will really need Wiese and Brink to have a quick impact.

Turns out the Fiji squad reported in the French press that Egerton tweeted from was wrong. Murimurivalu and Nadolo have both been selected.

No wonder TRP reported that Tigers are looking for a left wing and outside centre. Without Youngs/Ford for most the season and Nadolo/Murimurivalu until January I really can't see us climbing above a relegation fight.

A real blow for us. Losing two key players when we only anticipated losing one. Nadolo isn't replaceable either. Porter has shown he's good but he's not got much experience.

9. White
10. Henry
11. Potter
12. Scott
13. Porter
14. Van Wyk
15. Steward

21. JVP 22. McPhillips/Worth/Hardwick 23. Taute

We look short in experience. If Moroni was likely to come in earlier, say if he's rehabbing in Leicester and might be back early then that would be good. Otherwise it doesn't look great and only an injury or two away from the backlines where we took a pasting after the restart.

According to Paul Tait on Twitter Moroni is due to join Tigers in December. Unsure if he will be fit then though.

Autumn Nations Cup - 13 November to 6 December
Rugby Championship - 7 November to 12 December

Gloucester (H) - 21 Nov
Irish (A) - 29 Nov
Exeter (H) - 6 Dec
Challenge Cup - 3 and 20 Dec
Falcons (A) - 26 Dec
Bath (H) - 3 Jan
Saints (A) - 9 Jan
Challenge Cup - 16 and 23 Jan
Sale (H) - 30 Jan

Those are the fixtures before the 6 Nations start. Realistically we will lose the England players for the Sale game the week before round 1 of the 6 Nations as well.

Falcons, Bath and Saints with the England players available will be vital.

Unless we make swift signings I can't see us winning any of the Gloucester, Irish or Chiefs games though.

The more I look at the coming season the more concerned I am about another relegation battle.

Paul Tait tweeting that Bonilla Diaz won't be joining the Pumas squad for the Rugby Championship as he's already in the UK. Hopefully that means he will be with Tigers for November/December. A significant boost if true as the backline is really lacking experience for the first 3 rounds.

Having another experienced playmaker would be very beneficial. If we are going to be short of Nadolo it opens up the opportunity for Steward to go to the wing and Henry to go to 15. Would allow us to keep using the left wing crossfield option to gain territory as 6ft6 Steward is pretty good in the air.

Boris has moved on. I guess he has a forwards coach role lined up somewhere, possibly with an international side. He's too good a coach to only be in charge of the scrum and with Borthwick in charge of the forwards it's probably inevitable. Still a blow as he's been one of the few positive coaching influences in the last few years.

He's one of the good guys and I hope his career goes from strength to strength.

Big loss, one of the best (only Hatley is comparable in terms of ability) scrum coaches in the Prem. I can only imagine he's going on to a forward coach job or international scrum coach position. He'll be a success wherever he goes and I hope we see him back in the future.

https://www.leicestertigers.com/news/squad-update-201019

Updates from Smurf. Pretty much what was know/assumed already:

Bonilla is already in the UK, as known, will be with the squad for preseason.

Moroni will join the squad "towards the start of the new season" but is still rehabbing.

Wiese has a couple of fixtures to play with the Cheetahs and will be here for the start of the new season. Two Cheetahs games means his final fixture will be 6 November. Travel then quarantine means he will be able to train around the time of the first fixture on 21 November against Gloucester. So potentially wont be inline for selection for the first round but should be soon after. He won MOM for the Cheetahs against the Bulls with Vermeulen his opposite number a couple of days ago. Seems like he should be a good signing.

All sounding positive. 

Weise got a write up that made him sound like another Liebenburg. Carries, lineout jumper and good defensive work rate. I like what I hear.

Attack coach Rob Taylor leaves in compassionate grounds having only been here for five minutes. I presume his family haven't been able to settle or don't want to come over. Whichever he's off home to NZ, I presume there's a coaching job over there with his name on it as he had a good reputation in the SH before coming up to us.

Leaves us looking for another coach with Matt Smith covering in the short term. 

Scrum coach and attack coach wanted. Former Tigers old boys are brushing off their CVs no doubt.

What with Covid and that nameless event due in a couple of months I wonder if moving to the UK might be a tougher sell, especially for families.

Could well be. Though if you've got coach that brought back the Tigers attack from the dead on your CV you are going to be able to move onto to some pretty decent roles in the future.

8 clubs had positive Covid cases in this weeks testing. We have had to close Oval Park due to an outbreak affecting playing and non playing staff, with the squad training at home.

LondonTiger wrote:8 clubs had positive Covid cases in this weeks testing. We have had to close Oval Park due to an outbreak affecting playing and non playing staff, with the squad training at home.

Surprised it's taken this long Oadby and Wigston have been one of the worst regions in the country throughout the pandemic. No good reason for it either other than people that way not taking it seriously.

Blow to preparations as the players shouldn't need much physical conditioning, what they do need is to be running drills toget for attack, defence and set piece.

Luan de Bruin signed from the Cheetahs.

David Williams re-signed from Nottingham.

Good news on both counts. LdB is a unit that plays both sides and adds needed cover. Williams has performed well since joining on loan and will be cost effective.

Common sense signings on both counts. Only issue is that LdB has a three year deal at Edinburgh starting next season so if he turns out to be a bit we won't be keeping him.

Geordie gone.

Just banned like that. It took ages to get rid of Grey Ghost.

LondonTiger wrote:Geordie gone.

 legend leaves the club having been given an impossible job and then often left to explain the mess left by others. Seemed to be doing good work as DOR and finally establishing a development pathway that could benefit us in the long term.

I suspect we've paid him a proportion of his contract now in order to save money over the next 9 months. He's got one in the oven so probably accepted so he can spend more time at home with the family in the short term. Once networking events kick in next year he'll be a great guest speaker.

No idea where this leaves the club with no DOR, attack or scrum coach and two weeks until the season kicks off.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Geordie gone.

 legend leaves the club having been given an impossible job and then often left to explain the mess left by others. Seemed to be doing good work as DOR and finally establishing a development pathway that could benefit us in the long term.

I suspect we've paid him a proportion of his contract now in order to save money over the next 9 months. He's got one in the oven so probably accepted so he can spend more time at home with the family in the short term. Once networking events kick in next year he'll be a great guest speaker.

No idea where this leaves the club with no DOR, attack or scrum coach and two weeks until the season kicks off.

Is Mike Ford still with you?

Mike Ford is defence coach, he was awful last season as attack coach. Doing better now back in charge of defence.

We've got Deacon assisting Borthwick with the forwards. Borthwick is obviously head coach and is also covering scrum coaching.

Matt Smith is the academy head coach and is currently the interim attack coach but he's a relatively new coach. He was hard as nails as a player though (just like his old man) so Borthwick probably likes him. Rumours are Wigglesworth could take this role on having working with Ealing last season and assisted Canada at the RWC.

For DOR I wonder if we'll try and tempt Taylor back the man who rebuilt the academy. He left for a job at Sport England based at Loughborough University so he's still in Leicestershire and the club were desperate to retain him. That or Jan McGinty could step up from head of recruitment with a hands off coaching sort of role.

It's about time you got shot, he's been a failure in every role you've shoe horned him into since he retired from playing. I know you carry a lot of love for the guy but it was only a matter of time.

I can only see you coming back stronger from now on.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's about time you got shot, he's been a failure in every role you've shoe horned him into since he retired from playing. I know you carry a lot of love for the guy but it was only a matter of time.

I can only see you coming  back stronger from now on.

Not really. As skills coach he oversaw significant improvement over a succession of back three players. Most noticeably TV who he helped develop into an outstanding full back. Backs and head coach didn't really suit him though he was handed an awful steaming pile of a job as head coach due to a succession of appalling decisions by the board over many years. As DOR he actually brought in a brilliant development pathway that is already allowing us to bring on the talent coming out the academy and get them ready for first team rugby. DOR or head of rugby operations was probably a better position for him than head coach.

He's been a great servant to the club probably pushed out early to save money. I suspect there's a long line of people waiting to hire him on the speaking circuit and I wouldn't be surprised to see a job in media come his way either.

Not a happy camp at Tigers with Rory Underwood walking away as non-exec director due to his unhappiness with the Murphy sacking.

And still you defend him....got to love your blind faith in the guy.

I think he may be more suited to media too.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:And still you defend him....got to love your blind faith in the guy.

I think he may be more suited to media too.

His onfield coaching beyond academy level was disastrous but he had a really poor squad to work with by then. The locks and back row in particular were way below standard for a long time. Centre beyond the big name stars was poor too.

With Borthwick coming in it sounded like Geordie would just be working on rebuilding the pathway from academy to senior side which was gone until recent improvements which to be fair to Geordie did happen whilst he was head coach. That's one thing I'd really say for his time in a top job he shouldn't have got, he tried to give academy grads a chance again.

You're right on the whole Sarge that his coaching time has been poor but there are mitigating circumstances of inheriting a dire squad after the calamity of appointing MOC.

Rory Underwood gone from the BOD as well as Geordie is clearly Tom cracking the whip, just far too late.

Boris leaving felt slightly in the pipeline when Borthwick joined. Stanko is a big loss but with Borthwick coaching the forwards and lineout it meant that Boris couldn't progress beyond scrum coach and working with the 2nd XV/PRC forwards. He's just too good a coach to not progress beyond that level. A shame but different story to Underwood and Smurf leaving.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:And still you defend him....got to love your blind faith in the guy.

I think he may be more suited to media too.

There's no blind faith. We all knew he wasn't up to the head coach role but felt he may have been able to add something in the DOR role especially with less hands on coaching and well he did. Murphy and McGinty oversaw an awful period but working together have meant Borthwick has a far better and younger squad to work with. Were we not losing money hand over first I think he'd have been given more time. I don't expect any big names to come in.

Carlos, agree on Stanko. Great scrum coach but he's already coached an international sides forwards at a world cup. He no doubt wanted to progress. I'm waiting for him to be announced in a bigger role soon.

I'd be the same if it was Wilko etc. Because you loved these guys as players they get more rope, not having a go.

I think it could be bad news for the rest of the Prem that Tigers are finally getting their house in order and rid of the guys clearly not up to task.

You say that but England should be thanking Geordie without him then Steward wouldn't be a regular at 19 and looking like Tigers 15 for the next decade. Martin wouldn't have made his debut at 19 and put in some eye opening performances that started rumours Eddie wanted him in as an apprentice in the England squad before injury struck. What he's put in place I think will behind any resurgence we see from Tigers. He really just needed to be taken out of that head coach role where he should never have been.

You are right though club legends do get more wiggle room than most. It's why many overlooked the awful work of Cockers as DOR a man with no vision past the next game. The board seem to escape blame because of their last glories and they have made a catalogue of appalling decisions mostly driven by being cheap options in the short term.

Given the make shift nature of our coaching team next season could be a very tough one.

"England should be thanking Geordie"



Step away from the alchol Sam....

Sgt_Pooly wrote:"England should be thanking Geordie"



Step away from the alchol Sam....

Steward will play for England in the next year Sgt. Built like a brick out house, unnaturally comfortable at senior level for a teenager in a team under pressure and he can kick goals from 50m+. He's not dissimilar to Daly except he can tackle and he has more of a swerve than a step.

Geordie made it a point of his tenure to get the academy lads senior minutes. Quite a few of those academy players played England age grade. Under coaches like Cockers and MOC they'd have got games only when they were blindingly obvious future internationals and Lions Level players or there was an injury crisis. Under Murphy we've seen Heyes, Chessum, Martin, Henderson, Smith, JVP, Costelow (though the WRU tempted him home), Hardwick, Kelly and Steward all come in and develop as part of the first team. The difference that will make in the long run will benefit Tigers as we'll start to have a core of talented youngsters pushing the first team and bulking out the squad, means we won't need journeymen and can concentrate on signing one outstanding player rather than two good players.

All those guys bar Costelow who's already gone are EQ though the dual qualified Henderson and Kelly have already player for Scotland and Ireland under 20s respectively despite being 18/19 at the time. Martin, Chessum, JVP and Steward were all in the England under 20s squad for the 6N though Martin missed out through injury.

Looking in from the outside it seems the off field mess is having a massive issue on the pitch.

They seemed to have learned from MOC and not given him a few months of the new season to turn things around which led to the mess that resulted in Geordie getting pushed up the ladder. He was hardly going to say no to his club.

Cockers did have a slump but it was dropping from top 2 to 4th. He has done ok at Edinburgh

If ye can get him I think Lancaster would be great from tigers on a two year deal.  He would be great with the young players and also fix alot of the bad feelings between the squad and the club.  Don't know if he is ready to leave Leinster.

Lancaster has rebuilt his reputation in Ireland but he's still not that popular in England and certainly not at Leicester. Too many of Tigers key players played under him for England. Tigers isn't the type of place long power point presentations and long winded leadership group meetings go down particularly well. The club have said they will not employ another DOR it will be an administrator to oversee the operations alongside Borthwick as head coach and McGinty as head of recruitment.

Cockers is a brilliant coach, he's a poor DOR. If you want to win next week get in Cockers. If you want to still be winning in four years time then you need someone else to plan that out above his head which is what Tigers didn't have. Tigers promoted him above his level and actually took him away from the training picture a bit which was a waste.

Our academy coach who also looks after the Loughborough University scrum coaching is assisting the first team. Sounds like a good move. He's got a decent CV coaching at academy and development level so we may as well try him out and see what he can bring to the party. Matt Smith as interim attack coach is the concern as he's only got a year of academy coaching under his belt and he's still academy head coach so juggling two jobs that both need plenty of attention.

Sorry but what evidence do you have to suggest Borthwick wouldn't have played Martin or Steward?

Welly wrote: Sorry but what evidence do you have to suggest Borthwick wouldn't have played Martin or Steward?

None but Steward was picked by Geordie before Borthwick came in. The development pathway was established before Borthwick came in. JVP was brought in before Borthwick came in. There is plenty of evidence that Murphy's predecessors would have been slow to select them.

I hope Borthwick continues in the same vein as Murphy did developing the players coming through. On paper Borthwick looks a very competent coach so should be able to bring those players through.