SF2 - Match Thread - WALES v SOUTH AFRICA - 27/10/19 - K/O 09:00 GMT

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

Again, making these early for the sake of ease and consistency.

WALES

Team:Halfpenny; North, J Davies, Parkes, Adams; Biggar, G Davies; Wyn Jones, Owens, Francis, Ball, Alun Wyn Jones (capt), Wainwright, Moriarty, Tipuric.

Replacements: Dee, R Carre, D Lewis, Beard, Shingler, T Williams, Patchell, Watkin.

SOUTH AFRICA

South Africa: Le Roux; Nkosi, Am, De Allende, Mapimpi; Pollard, De Klerk; Mtawarira, Mbonambi, Malherbe, Etzebeth, De Jager, Kolisi (capt), Du Toit, Vermeulen

Replacements: Marx, Kitschoff, Koch, Snyman, Mostert, Louw, H Jantjies, Steyn



Venue: Yokohama
Referee:
AR1:
AR2:
TMO:

[maestegmafia]

Shame barnes isnt getting the chance to bow out being the main guy in the middle.

There’s a very good chance he will be?

[No 7&1/2]

Cant officiate against england maes.

[LondonTiger]

Cant officiate against england maes.

That's ok, Barnes can do the final.

[No 7&1/2]

Ye of little faith. Anyway it was a lament that barnes is a better ref and for me should have been given this game and Owen's ours.

[LondonTiger]

Ye of little faith. Anyway it was a lament that barnes is a better ref and for me should have been given this game and Owen's ours.

I actually thought that they would, thus saving Garces for the final (Garces entered the tournament top of the WR internal rankings for refs)

[BamBam]

Ye of little faith. Anyway it was a lament that barnes is a better ref and for me should have been given this game and Owen's ours.

I actually thought that they would, thus saving Garces for the final (Garces entered the tournament top of the WR internal rankings for refs)

[LondonTiger]

I bet that's the posh popcorn

[Poorfour]

Ye of little faith. Anyway it was a lament that barnes is a better ref and for me should have been given this game and Owen's ours.

I actually thought that they would, thus saving Garces for the final (Garces entered the tournament top of the WR internal rankings for refs)

Interesting. Are those published somewhere?

[mikey_dragon]

Should really be the third/ fourt play off game.

That'll be England vs South Africa.

[Old Man]

Should really be the third/ fourt play off game.

That'll be England vs South Africa.

I have a surprise for you

But it can wait till Sunday.

[mikey_dragon]

With Garces refereeing the scrums are going to be a nightmare, It will halt any potential rythm.

The potential for getting carded jumps astronomically.

Rucks will be a mess with potentially weird calls.

Wales are very good at disrupting rucks in a negative way, bodies will be flopping in the collective onto the ground, Garces will be staring into the headlights of an oncoming vehicle, Scrums will reset again and again.

As much as South Africa and Wales don’t have a free flowing attack, the potential of this match becoming a stop start affair will be attributed to Garces as much as negative tactics.

It will be a game of attrition and a frustrating match for supporters.

The team who wins here will be the one that manages to pull the wool over Garces’ eyes.

It sounds like it will be a wet match as well.

Expect a borefest with low scoring, negative tactics and someone is going to win this with penalties.

Sadly that is how I see this match going.

You can't seriously think Garces will benefit us in this match... Where the hell have you been?

It's usually a game of attrition for us against teams like France and SA. Let's face it, that wins rugby. The QF in 2015 was very attritional so this game will probably look similar to that one. Some of our guys need to step up though if we are to be in it.

[LondonTiger]

Ye of little faith. Anyway it was a lament that barnes is a better ref and for me should have been given this game and Owen's ours.

I actually thought that they would, thus saving Garces for the final (Garces entered the tournament top of the WR internal rankings for refs)

Interesting. Are those published somewhere?

Not publicly, but just as the feedback WR gives to countries after matches is meant to be confidential information like this will work it's way out. Lets just say there are some perks to being on certain Management Committees.

[maestegmafia]

Owain Lane has arrived in Japan.

[maestegmafia]

Apparently JD2 wasn’t involved in the light training session this afternoon but was working with Prav instead.

Shaun Edwards was at the press conference, said he is not disappointed with conceding the points last week but was annoyed at the way they were conceded.

[LondonTiger]

Owain Lane has arrived in Japan.

Has he much chance of featuring in the Semi? I know both first choice centres have injuries, but they have continued playing Parkes with his broken hand. The cover is needed but I assume he would still be behind Watkin, Amos and 1/2p?

[maestegmafia]

Owain Lane has arrived in Japan.

Has he much chance of featuring in the Semi? I know both first choice centres have injuries, but they have continued playing Parkes with his broken hand. The cover is needed but I assume he would still be behind Watkin, Amos and 1/2p?

No clue to be honest.

Presume that the coaches expect to play JD2 and Parkes, if JD2 can’t make it then Watkin promotes as last week.

I think Lane is there for the experience and extreme emergency cover on the wing.

That said George Norths first cap was against SA and he scored two tries.

Lanes excellent character has been mentioned and how much he gives to the squad as a really nice lad to have around.

Talk about whether Rhys Carre will get a selection after his positive performance last weekend. Most likely bench as Wyn Jones has played so well.

[Old Man]

With Garces refereeing the scrums are going to be a nightmare, It will halt any potential rythm.

The potential for getting carded jumps astronomically.

Rucks will be a mess with potentially weird calls.

Wales are very good at disrupting rucks in a negative way, bodies will be flopping in the collective onto the ground, Garces will be staring into the headlights of an oncoming vehicle, Scrums will reset again and again.

As much as South Africa and Wales don’t have a free flowing attack, the potential of this match becoming a stop start affair will be attributed to Garces as much as negative tactics.

It will be a game of attrition and a frustrating match for supporters.

The team who wins here will be the one that manages to pull the wool over Garces’ eyes.

It sounds like it will be a wet match as well.

Expect a borefest with low scoring, negative tactics and someone is going to win this with penalties.

Sadly that is how I see this match going.

You can't seriously think Garces will benefit us in this match... Where the hell have you been?

It's usually a game of attrition for us against teams like France and SA. Let's face it, that wins rugby. The QF in 2015 was very attritional so this game will probably look similar to that one. Some of our guys need to step up though if we are to be in it.

I am not suggesting Garces will favour Wales, I am suggesting his style of refereeing can fall in chaos. Then it becomes the luck of the draw.

I would have much preferred Barnes.

[LondonTiger]

Apparently JD2 wasn’t involved in the light training session this afternoon but was working with Prav instead.

Shaun Edwards was at the press conference, said he is not disappointed with conceding the points last week but was annoyed at the way they were conceded.

Edwards may well have been a touch grumpy with the number of missed tackles, he is a grouch old sod after all

Wales scrambled well though which mitigated that. (At 83% completion all the other Semi finalists had higher SA 86, Eng 89, NZ 91 - though with Ireland's attack being a bit predictable NZ probably had the easiest job in completing tackles).

[mikey_dragon]

I agree with all of that. There's been quite a backlash from South Africans on Twitter, but they're also acknowledging that "I don't think he likes the Welsh either." They must have been watching Wales vs Australia. If you think that was bad, you should've seen Ireland vs Wales. Also keep in mind that we just dumped his country out of the world cup.

[maestegmafia]

Apparently JD2 wasn’t involved in the light training session this afternoon but was working with Prav instead.

Shaun Edwards was at the press conference, said he is not disappointed with conceding the points last week but was annoyed at the way they were conceded.

Edwards may well have been a touch grumpy with the number of missed tackles, he is a grouch old sod after all

Wales scrambled well though which mitigated that. (At 83% completion all the other Semi finalists had higher SA 86, Eng 89, NZ 91 - though with Ireland's attack being a bit predictable NZ probably had the easiest job in completing tackles).

Grumpy sod is not a bad description when it comes to his opinion on defensive lapses.

I think wales game plan will change very little vs SA. Most likely a contain and frustrate plan and counter on their mistakes.

SA have been prone to plenty of errors outside the halfbacks.

Their mauling is very good but they haven’t used it as a weapon as much as I would have thought.

[Old Man]

As a general rule I don’t like French referees, Poite is even worse in my books

[Old Man]

Apparently JD2 wasn’t involved in the light training session this afternoon but was working with Prav instead.

Shaun Edwards was at the press conference, said he is not disappointed with conceding the points last week but was annoyed at the way they were conceded.

Edwards may well have been a touch grumpy with the number of missed tackles, he is a grouch old sod after all

Wales scrambled well though which mitigated that. (At 83% completion all the other Semi finalists had higher SA 86, Eng 89, NZ 91 - though with Ireland's attack being a bit predictable NZ probably had the easiest job in completing tackles).

Grumpy sod is not a bad description when it comes to his opinion on defensive lapses.

I think wales game plan will change very little vs SA. Most likely a contain and frustrate plan and counter on their mistakes.

SA have been prone to plenty of errors outside the halfbacks.

Their mauling is very good but they haven’t used it as a weapon as much as I would have thought.

The SA backline vs Japan was very error prone, they rushed passes, took risks with floating passes and lost patience on attack, hopefully they will be more composed vs Wales. They need to kick less ball away though, minimum possession tends to put pressure on attack plays.

[maestegmafia]

Sad news that McBryde’s mother passed away. Apparently he plans to stay with Wales for the remainder of the RWC.

[maestegmafia]

Apparently JD2 wasn’t involved in the light training session this afternoon but was working with Prav instead.

Shaun Edwards was at the press conference, said he is not disappointed with conceding the points last week but was annoyed at the way they were conceded.

Edwards may well have been a touch grumpy with the number of missed tackles, he is a grouch old sod after all

Wales scrambled well though which mitigated that. (At 83% completion all the other Semi finalists had higher SA 86, Eng 89, NZ 91 - though with Ireland's attack being a bit predictable NZ probably had the easiest job in completing tackles).

Grumpy sod is not a bad description when it comes to his opinion on defensive lapses.

I think wales game plan will change very little vs SA. Most likely a contain and frustrate plan and counter on their mistakes.

SA have been prone to plenty of errors outside the halfbacks.

Their mauling is very good but they haven’t used it as a weapon as much as I would have thought.

The SA backline vs Japan was very error prone, they rushed passes, took risks with floating passes and lost patience on attack, hopefully they will be more composed vs Wales. They need to kick less ball away though, minimum possession tends to put pressure on attack plays.

I agree, maybe because the Japanese Teams handling has been so good this tournament it encouraged The Boks to emulate?

My thought prior was that SA would have the stronger set piece game, but Japan stood up to that challenge well which I think frustrated the Boks

[Guest]

Lets not forget the famous quote from Gatland when asked why his team never seems to have a Plan B. Paraphrasing a bit:

"Why would we move to Plan B when we haven't executed Plan A properly yet"! There is no different game plan. It's just Plan A because, if that's executed properly, we'll be scoring tries and winning. And if it's not executed properly, well...... execute it properly!

[LondonTiger]

At scrums I thought SA had the upper hand (excepting when down a man) but not by as much as I expected. At the lineout they took Japan to the cleaners.

[Old Man]

Apparently JD2 wasn’t involved in the light training session this afternoon but was working with Prav instead.

Shaun Edwards was at the press conference, said he is not disappointed with conceding the points last week but was annoyed at the way they were conceded.

Edwards may well have been a touch grumpy with the number of missed tackles, he is a grouch old sod after all

Wales scrambled well though which mitigated that. (At 83% completion all the other Semi finalists had higher SA 86, Eng 89, NZ 91 - though with Ireland's attack being a bit predictable NZ probably had the easiest job in completing tackles).

Grumpy sod is not a bad description when it comes to his opinion on defensive lapses.

I think wales game plan will change very little vs SA. Most likely a contain and frustrate plan and counter on their mistakes.

SA have been prone to plenty of errors outside the halfbacks.

Their mauling is very good but they haven’t used it as a weapon as much as I would have thought.

The SA backline vs Japan was very error prone, they rushed passes, took risks with floating passes and lost patience on attack, hopefully they will be more composed vs Wales. They need to kick less ball away though, minimum possession tends to put pressure on attack plays.

I agree, maybe because the Japanese Teams handling has been so good this tournament it encouraged The Boks to emulate?

My thought prior was that SA would have the stronger set piece game, but Japan stood up to that challenge well which I think frustrated the Boks

In the first half Barnes didn’t allow the Boks scrum to benefit from their domination, in fact in my opinion he sympathetically leaned towards Japan, it was only in the second half where SA was given more leeway to dominate, eventually getting some penalties.

[maestegmafia]

Lets not forget the famous quote from Gatland when asked why his team never seems to have a Plan B.  Paraphrasing a bit:

"Why would we move to Plan B when we haven't executed Plan A properly yet"!  There is no different game plan.  It's just Plan A because, if that's executed properly, we'll be scoring tries and winning.  And if it's not executed properly, well...... execute it properly!

Sounds like a response to a petulant journalist to me. Some of the questions posed by the uk media have really annoyed players and coaches.

Every time I see an article relating to these situations I feel more empathy with the players and staff than the media.

[maestegmafia]

“If you want to watch a game of rugby, you want to go and watch Cheslin Kolbe,.”.

“We will have to keep an eye on him. He is one of the most dynamic players I’ve ever seen.

“I was lucky enough to play with Jason Robinson for many years. I was his captain at Wigan when he first came in the team there.

“Kolbe is a similar player to Jason – incredibly explosive, short and defies the fact that you have to be big to play the game of rugby.

“Out wide, they (South Africa) have got incredible speed. If there was a 4x100m relay race with all the teams in the World Cup, they would probably be the fastest.

“They have got blowtorch speed on the edges.”

[Guest]

Should really be the third/ fourt play off game.

Yet Wales is the only team to have won all their scheduled games, and SA at lest played all of theirs?

[Guest]

Wales are very good at disrupting rucks in a negative way, bodies will be flopping in the collective onto the ground, Garces will be staring into the headlights of an oncoming vehicle, Scrums will reset again and again.

Nonsense. Wales are probably one of the 'cleanest' teams at the breakdown - are you confusing us with Ireland?

[TightHEAD]

I have yet to see Francis scrummage straight. I don't think he'll get away with it vs the SA scrum.

(This is not a wum or anti-welsh, its just an opinion, my opinion)

[Guest]

Sad news that McBryde’s mother passed away. Apparently he plans to stay with Wales for the remainder of the RWC.

Yes, very. Good on him for staying as you can't demand or even expect it, but he's proven his worth over the last 7-8 years after a bit of a shaky start in the job. More coaching disruption would be a nightmare, and hopefully he gets the chance to grieve after a successful campaign.

[Guest]

“If you want to watch a game of rugby, you want to go and watch Cheslin Kolbe,.”.

“We will have to keep an eye on him. He is one of the most dynamic players I’ve ever seen.

“I was lucky enough to play with Jason Robinson for many years. I was his captain at Wigan when he first came in the team there.

“Kolbe is a similar player to Jason – incredibly explosive, short and defies the fact that you have to be big to play the game of rugby.

“Out wide, they (South Africa) have got incredible speed. If there was a 4x100m relay race with all the teams in the World Cup, they would probably be the fastest.

“They have got blowtorch speed on the edges.”

That's my fear as well. It doesn't matter too much that they've failed to live up to expectations, with a good coach, a powerful pack of forwards, and pace out wide, it makes them a threat. As quick as Adams is, he's not Mapimpi quick, and those fine margins really make the difference. Same for North, who seems to take a while to get up to speed, but is still probably not much quicker than Adams in full flight, if at all.

If you look at the way rugby has gone, it's look all 'football' codes - pace is now required in just about every position. Centre backs have to be rapid in soccer, full backs have to be some of the quickest in the team. Same goes for the hookers in rugby if you really want to be competitive. That top, top end pace is evident in NZ with Barrett being moved to 15, and Goodhue to 13. It's not so much that these players are better footballers than Ben Smith or SBW or Crotty or whoever else - it's that their extra yard or two of pace is the difference between getting hauled down on an outside break, and slipping through the fingertips and going 80 yards downfield to score a try.

England have it with Slade or Joseph at 13, Watson, May, and - most obviously - Daly at 15, who is picked in spite of his basic deficiencies as a 15. Wales have Liam - who's decent but not lightning quick. Jon Davies is the same - a strong runner with a good outside break, but not rapid. Australia made him look average when they attacked his outside at pace. We saw Amos get taken apart by Naholo's pace 3 years ago, Patchell at 15 suffered the same thing.

Most obviously, you compare NZ to Ireland and it becomes clear why Ireland had next to nothing to offer. Stockdale is about the only threat in a team that is slow from 9-15 excluding 11. Murray: slow. Sexton: stuck in the mud. Aki: ok, not too bad, but not rapid. Ringrose: average, not going to test teams with pace. Earls: slow for a winger. Kearney: same as Sexton.

Pace is why Cuthbert had an international career. He was the quickest in the Welsh team, and in spite of all his many failings - and I'm glad Josh Adams is available now - he still made some key contributions, and had he left for Exeter 3-5 years ago, might have become a really well-rounded rugby player who bounced back about now in a Wales shirt.

Pace is pretty much the basic necessity in the game - just after power in the stakes of importance. SA have both, and that alone is worrying for Wales, as we're a touch underpowered, and lacking a bit of pace as well, particularly in the 10-12 positions. Can only hope Gareth Davies uses his exceptional pace for a 9 to full effect, as I'm struggling to see where we'll have any attacking threat outside the back 3 if JD2 is out and Watkin starts.

[Guest]

I have yet to see Francis scrummage straight. I don't think he'll get away with it vs the SA scrum.

(This is not a wum or anti-welsh, its just an opinion, my opinion)

The winky face seems ominous, but as Mako and Marler line up at a 45 degree angle still, I can't say Francis has stood out as a particularly crooked scrummager.

[Old Man]

Wales are very good at disrupting rucks in a negative way, bodies will be flopping in the collective onto the ground, Garces will be staring into the headlights of an oncoming vehicle, Scrums will reset again and again.

Nonsense. Wales are probably one of the 'cleanest' teams at the breakdown - are you confusing us with Ireland?

We will talk after Sunday

[Guest]

Apparently JD2 wasn’t involved in the light training session this afternoon but was working with Prav instead.

Unfortunately I can't say I'm surprised, maes. I know you thought I was being a bit ridiculous last week but I suspected something like this was going on - hoping JD2 will just about be strapped up for the SF. I think he was likely only ever an outside shot at playing the QF at best, as it proved. All a bit of kidology from Gatland et al. to have France waste some preparation for JD2. Now it might go the other way - he's not trained, oooh it's not looking good, we'll give him as much time as possible, Watkin is ready and able to step in - then he plays and has a stormer aha.

[Guest]

Wales are very good at disrupting rucks in a negative way, bodies will be flopping in the collective onto the ground, Garces will be staring into the headlights of an oncoming vehicle, Scrums will reset again and again.

Nonsense. Wales are probably one of the 'cleanest' teams at the breakdown - are you confusing us with Ireland?

We will talk after Sunday

Why does this sound like a threat that I'll be sleeping with the sushi...?

[Old Man]

Wales are very good at disrupting rucks in a negative way, bodies will be flopping in the collective onto the ground, Garces will be staring into the headlights of an oncoming vehicle, Scrums will reset again and again.

Nonsense. Wales are probably one of the 'cleanest' teams at the breakdown - are you confusing us with Ireland?

We will talk after Sunday

Why does this sound like a threat that I'll be sleeping with the sushi...?

Huh?

[Old Man]

Good news for Wales


Just read a stat on SA matches refereed by Garces.

only 4 wins in 14

[Guest]

Wales are very good at disrupting rucks in a negative way, bodies will be flopping in the collective onto the ground, Garces will be staring into the headlights of an oncoming vehicle, Scrums will reset again and again.

Nonsense. Wales are probably one of the 'cleanest' teams at the breakdown - are you confusing us with Ireland?

We will talk after Sunday

Why does this sound like a threat that I'll be sleeping with the sushi...?

Huh?

Should have put an emoji to show it was a joke. The way you said it sounds like a mobster making a threat.

[Guest]

Good news for Wales


Just read a stat on SA matches refereed by Garces.

only 4 wins in 14

How many of those were because your team was cr@p, your coach was cr@p, and you were playing NZ?

[Old Man]

2013 v Australia, Cape Town - won 28-8
2013 v Scotland, Edinburgh - won 28-0
2014 v New Zealand, Wellington - lost 14-10
2014 v Italy, Padova - won 22-6
2015 v New Zealand, Johannesburg - lost 27-20
2015 v Japan, Brighton - lost 34-32
2015 v New Zealand, London - lost 20-18
2016 v Argentina, Salta - lost 26-24
2016 v New Zealand, Durban - lost 57-15
2016 v England, London - lost 37-21
2017 v New Zealand, Cape Town - lost 25-24
2017 v Wales, Cardiff - lost 24-22
2018 v Australia, Port Elizabeth - won 23-12
2019 v New Zealand, Yokohama - lost 23-13

[LondonTiger]

so 6 defeats to NZ? Take those out and it becomes a 50/50 ratio.

[Guest]

Haha, yeah, there we go.

[Afro]

Got to take the Wales game out too as clearly he is anti-Welsh more than anti-Springbok

[Taylorman]

With Garces refereeing the scrums are going to be a nightmare, It will halt any potential rythm.

The potential for getting carded jumps astronomically.

Rucks will be a mess with potentially weird calls.

Wales are very good at disrupting rucks in a negative way, bodies will be flopping in the collective onto the ground, Garces will be staring into the headlights of an oncoming vehicle, Scrums will reset again and again.

As much as South Africa and Wales don’t have a free flowing attack, the potential of this match becoming a stop start affair will be attributed to Garces as much as negative tactics.

It will be a game of attrition and a frustrating match for supporters.

The team who wins here will be the one that manages to pull the wool over Garces’ eyes.

It sounds like it will be a wet match as well.

Expect a borefest with low scoring, negative tactics and someone is going to win this with penalties.

Sadly that is how I see this match going.

Yeah gotta say this is a mix of a panel alright, and giving Garces the match that’s likely to be more about the packs suggests attrition and I agree, frustration.

The likely contrast in flow of each each semi couldn’t be wider. Both England and NZ will look for attacking opportunities under a chirpy Owens where Garces will probably be frowning at front rowers all match

Wales coming off a ho hum effort vs France will be nervous and probably risk averse. Still can’t pick this one, think we’ve seen the worst of Wales, not sure about the Boks. They’ve kind of toiled away quietly doing the business since the NZ match.

[Taylorman]

so 6 defeats to NZ? Take those out and it becomes a 50/50 ratio.

Interesting too cos some of those were classics. The 2017 match they should have won, despite losing 57-0 three weeks earlier. The 2015 was the semi, and the 2014 match was a brutal encounter, memories of Sam Canes blooded face still resonate. Didn’t know Garces was centre of all those.

[Guest]

What we've seen from Garces so far is complete laissez-faire approach to the game. Effectively, it will be something of a free for all. Wales had good prep with Peyper in that regard.

Wales do have experience with Garces, though, and AWJ tends to 'work' him quite well - would hope for more of the same, really, as I don't think Kolisi has lived up to the hype as Springbok captain.

[Guest]

so 6 defeats to NZ? Take those out and it becomes a 50/50 ratio.

Interesting too cos some of those were classics. The 2017 match they should have won, despite losing 57-0 three weeks earlier. The 2015 was the semi, and the 2014 match was a brutal encounter, memories of Sam Canes blooded face still resonate. Didn’t know Garces was centre of all those.

Not such a bad ref after all, then...

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