Refreshed side

by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Nov 2019, 8:17 am

First topic message reminder :

So a few comments I've lifted from the guardian from Eddie Jones. Pretty much as you'd expect in terms of looking ahead to the next challenge.
“I tell you what happens to teams – they evolve,” Jones said. “Some guys will lose desire, some guys will lose fitness, some guys will get injuries and there’ll be young guys come through. So this team is finished now. There will be a new team made. We’ll make a new team for the Six Nations and that new team for the Six Nations will be the basis of going to the next World Cup.'

Apparently the team at the weekend is the youngest to appear in a WC final so there won't be 15 new guys coming in but clearly a few are coming to the end. Are there particular areas or players jones will be looking at?

For me this bunch stand a decent chance in and around the squad to get more caps soon. Genge, Painter, Willis, Dombrandt, Smith, spencer, Robson and a outside chance of Mullins at full back.

Guys that are all young enough to be around for years to come but all with great potential. Perhaps not as good/proven as some who will step back but hugely talented.

by Guest Thu 21 Nov 2019, 9:43 am

Because EJ clearly values Daly as his 15. Sees him as having the skills he wants.

I'd be amazed if EJ has a whole new gameplan in place or will change too much in this 6 Nations. If he does see himself leading England through to 2023, then I would be surprised if there are wholesale changes now rather than more gradual ones starting in the summer with the development tour.

I'm not sure, personally, whether Watson is better at 15. Daly has a better kicking game as far as I can tell, but he's not ideal - shanked one kick out for about 5-10m in the final, didn't he. But clearly a very good attacking boot, and by and large, when not under pressure, can relieve pressure well.

Daly brings you something at 15 which is very good. Like Le Roux. Very similar to Le Roux in fact, but with more pace - and probaby less 15-specific skills and nous. That's an issue in defence, but EJ mitigates these issues - like the high penalty count - by going for 'quick' scores. Not just early, but intense, short effort. The opposite of the Schmidt-Gatland grinditout kind of score with high ball in play time and medium to low intensity. Daly suits EJ's plans.

Unless he calls up someone who wasn't in the RWC squad to play 15, I would put money on it being Daly.

As for who I'd pick...I'd be more tempted to try Watson there. But I'm not sure. Would be a 50:50 as neither is a perfect 15 by any means, and Watson is a much better winger than Daly in my opinion.

by Gooseberry Thu 21 Nov 2019, 10:03 am

But then prior to his injury Watson played a number of tests at FB with Daly on the wing. I don't really see them as fundamentally different players, except that Daly is more likely to pop up in the centres for England attacks if Farrell is at 10.

The reason that he might swap back is that Daly struggled at fullback and was one of the weaker links for England even in the games they were winning.

Im not saying it set in stone, just your comment seems to suggest that theres no way Jones would ever contemplate picking Watson at FB for this 6 nations, despite him previously seeing Watson as the successor to Brown and only switching to Daly when Watson was unavailable.

Now it made sense to back his horse (Daly) through the world cup as Watson is a fine winger (as was Daly when he played there) and they'd invested time and effort building around Daly. But now we are out of that cycle and explicitly talking about what might be done to refresh the side outright rejecting the notion that Jones might change his mind back to Watson seems wrong to me.

Although your clarification comment seems to back down a bit from the initial " it will be Daly" to a more moderate its pretty likely to be Daly which I feel is maybe more 50/50. Id be pretty surprised if Daly wasnt in the 23 though.

I cant see it being someone entirely new outside that group of Nowell, Watson Daly ( I guess May too had his period of being called Englands future full back but that was a long time ago now, and Slade as another real outsider). As I said earlier up the thread there could well be a youngster in the training group but theres really not anyone who you could imagine making the 15, and they have Japan for doing what Wales have been forced into for the barbarians fixture (ie picking whoever is willing to turn up)

by Cumbrian Thu 21 Nov 2019, 11:48 am

Regardless of whether Daly remains fullback for the foreseeable future, England need to develop more options there. There needs to be a contingency for if he gets injured. I guess Watson is likely to step in, but he will need back up too, should this situation arise. It isn't good to be reliant on one player. I say that with half an eye on Farrell too.

by Guest Thu 21 Nov 2019, 11:53 am

Yes, Watson was a 15 with Daly on the wing...but which do you think is more relevant/reliable? The one he tried first, or the one he selected for the WC?

by Guest Thu 21 Nov 2019, 11:55 am

p.s. my comment isn't 50/50. It's about 95 to 5 that it would be Daly over Watson or Nowell. Less likely if he selects a player from outside the squad, as I said.

by Gooseberry Thu 21 Nov 2019, 12:14 pm

miaow wrote:Yes, Watson was a 15 with Daly on the wing...but which do you think is more relevant/reliable? The one he tried first, or the one he selected for the WC?

The one that worked or the one that failed?

Again Im not saying it will happen, its just a viable option. Youve come up with nothing other than "well he stuck by Daly through the world cup" to support the assertion that its almost a given (95% now) that Daly will start the 6 nations. The "outside the squad" option would be an extreme wild card, as noted by others there just aren't the options out there for anything more than squad training experience.

If they'd won the world cup and been strong at fullback of course just keep on doing what you're doing, but they didn't and weren't. So it seems silly to rule out a change when you have a perfectly viable option who was chosen ahead of Daly previously in the role who played very well in the world cup (albeit at wing, why change a working part fair comment) . To reiterate: the reason Daly had the spot through the world cup was because Watson was injured, and Daly kept it because Watson didn't come back in enough time to displace him from that. At least thats every bit as valid an argument as Jones changed his mind whilst Watson was injured and decided that Daly was really good as a fullback despite all the pundits pointing to him as a weakness prior to and throughout the world cup.

Now we are post world cup its the ideal time to switch up a position of weakness. Again doesn't mean its gong to happen, and you may well be right that Jones feels Daly is still the best option there he currently has. But dismissing Watson as an option that could be taken by Jones presumes you can see inside his head.

It flies in the face of the willingness we have seen form Jones to change and flex, Farrell who he didn't even initially want in his side at all a case in point! Its still anyones guess as to whether he will line up at 10 or 12 for the six nations.

by Guest Thu 21 Nov 2019, 12:19 pm

Did one work and one fail? I didn't see that.

I've said my piece anyway. Don't want to just restate it, even if it appears you missed it.

by lostinwales Thu 21 Nov 2019, 12:38 pm

Watson looked really good on the wing during the WC. He caused chaos for all the teams he faced.

We are back to X is great at position Y so lets play him at Z instead.

I know that this has happened to some extent with Daly.

You can sort of see what has happened in that we have 4 very good wings (May, Nowell, Watson and Daly) and a superb prospect in Cokanasiga. No real stand out 15's with Brown being put out to pasture. Nowell and Watson have more experience at 15 but have not had a chance to get a run of games there because of injury, and Daly is the most versatile of all of these. So he's a compromise candidate

by No 7&1/2 Thu 21 Nov 2019, 7:36 pm

Jones will continue to challenge the team and tinker with things. You never know who may step into the team from nowhere whoch allows you other options elsewhere in the team. Cokanasiga is obviously a huge talent with a bit more polishing. May tempt him as you say to look to watson at full back. I'm still wanting malins to get a chance: saracens cheating may get him a lot more game time when hes back from injury.

by Taylorman Thu 21 Nov 2019, 8:04 pm

Yeah agree, I think the first round was more about getting England back to better days and building trust. I think he's done that pretty well. Now Eddie will want to push the team further in his own way even more and the loss in the final will go a long way to helping do that.

That could go one of two different ways. Like Mitchell, Jones has shown he can become divisive over time, and why theyre both rolling stones. But then Eddie hasnt really had this sort of resource access before, even with Oz so he could build a bit of a dynasty, and these guys tend to learn from the past.

by **LondonTiger** Fri 22 Nov 2019, 9:35 am

One interesting thing is Jones has, while plugging his book, talked about softening his style. We shall see.

by Gooseberry Fri 22 Nov 2019, 10:03 am

lostinwales wrote:Watson looked really good on the wing during the WC. He caused chaos for all the teams he faced.

We are back to X is great at position Y so lets play him at Z instead.

I know that this has happened to some extent with Daly.

You can sort of see what has happened in that we have 4 very good wings (May, Nowell, Watson and Daly) and a superb prospect in Cokanasiga. No real stand out 15's with Brown being put out to pasture. Nowell and Watson have more experience at 15 but have not had a chance to get a run of games there because of injury, and Daly is the most versatile of all of these. So he's a compromise candidate

Yeah and he also got picked as the future fullback before injury off the back of causing chaos on the wing ( as you note as per Daly!)

The point is someone has to play there, and in the absence of Brown and any player from outside the established group sticking their hand up in any meaningful way its very unlikely to be anyone who hasnt played recently for England and performed well in whatever position. Slade of course is another outside possibility having covered there during the world cup.

I always fancied Daly as a fullback, he has pace and a great kicking game. Rather than a compromise I felt it was a good position to make use of his range. But its really not worked very well, and if youre looking to improve the team its an obvious spot to tinker with. Going back to your original first choice ahead of him (Watson) doesn't seem so much like a compromise as a distinct possibility to me. Theres a lot of talk from fans and pundits that Dalys strongest position is 13, I think hes never started there for England though?

Cockasinga seems to often be the odd man out for England. Jones has looked at out and out wings and a bit of beef a few times, but always gone back to his Aussie style all round footballers in May, Nowell, Watson and Daly. I dont see that changing whilst he still has those four who have all delivered or are delivering. Its similar with the centers, its only really Manu who's a fairly limited player the others all having played at 10 at some point in their careers. Very much the Australian way of thinking that backs are backs and can play pretty much anywhere interchangeably. We see that during the games too with players not bound by the same phases of all types of possession and defensive situations.

But we will see, he may stick by Daly and theres good reasons for that. He may go with Watson or Nowell, or even Slade as a wildcard. Or just find some random Heinz type player that noone expected and shove them in. Getting his best backs on the pitch does seem to be the Jones way rather than rigidly thinking about specialists. Im not sure that Daly has been one of the best backs on the pitch since moving to fullback, which is why I see it as a position ripe for change.

by **LondonTiger** Fri 22 Nov 2019, 10:26 am

I think Daly has started one match at 13 for us.

Edit:

http://en.espn.co.uk/statsguru/rugby/player/126149.html?class=1;template=results;type=player;view=match

After a few bench appearances it looks like his first start was at 13, but after that Wing then Full Back.

by Gooseberry Fri 22 Nov 2019, 10:31 am

Never forget his appearance at 8, another problem position for England beyond Vunipola Very Happy

by lostinwales Fri 22 Nov 2019, 11:24 am

I think Cockasinga is seen as having immense potential but in need of work. The others are all much more polished

by **LondonTiger** Sat 23 Nov 2019, 2:13 pm

Daly having a really good first game for Sarries.

Ben Earl has been immense all season and showing up well again today. I just find him a more rounded player than the likes of Dombrandt, Willis and even Underhill.

by majesticimperialman Sat 23 Nov 2019, 9:07 pm

Watched the Sarries game the right winger. Rotimi Segun, what a talented player he is. is he English or English qualified? if he is what an head ache for EJ come the 6ns. providing he keeps playing like he did today could well be/should be considered for the squad.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 23 Nov 2019, 9:15 pm

32 year old Frenchman.

by majesticimperialman Sat 23 Nov 2019, 9:44 pm

did not know that.

by **LondonTiger** Sat 23 Nov 2019, 10:16 pm

He is pulling your leg.

by No 7&1/2 Sun 24 Nov 2019, 10:32 am

Honest mistake. That'll teach me for not simply googling it.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 24 Nov 2019, 10:38 am

He is an interesting one. His Sarries profile says he played for England U18s and U20s. I do not remember that, but his decision to go to University rather than stay in their academy suggests a more rounded character than we are starting to see in Rugby. He is still young, certainly has a turn of pace and is probably on a low salary.

by lostinwales Sun 24 Nov 2019, 12:18 pm

LondonTiger wrote:He is an interesting one. His Sarries profile says he played for England U18s and U20s. I do not remember that, but his decision to go to University rather than stay in their academy suggests a more rounded character than we are starting to see in Rugby. He is still young, certainly has a turn of pace and is probably on a low salary.

I think his Saracens profile says he once clocked 11.03 for 100m

by **LondonTiger** Sun 24 Nov 2019, 12:44 pm

They mentioned that time for 100m during the TV commentary. Of course it is not especially quick when compared to some players - but without knowing age, conditions etc it is hard to be sure.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 24 Nov 2019, 11:47 pm

Hooper thinks England didn't tell Bath the full extent of Joe Cokanasiga's injury. Seems he hadn't been able to train, and will see a specialist. England not pleased that Hooper seems to be blaming them. Telegraph points out Bruce Craig has form for being upset with his players getting injured on England duty.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2019/11/24/bath-angry-rfu-joe-cokanasigas-season-threatening-knee-injury/

Bath director of rugby Stuart Hooper says that the information he received from England about Joe Cokanasiga’s knee injury was different to what the club discovered themselves when the 22-year-old wing returned from the Rugby World Cup. Last Friday, Bath ominously announced that they would be seeking advice on Cokanasiga from “world-leading specialists” as they aim to “maximise his chances to perform at the highest level”.

A 15-9 loss to Harlequins on Saturday at the Twickenham Stoop, which also brought new knee injuries for Anthony Watson and captain Charlie Ewels, leaves Bath needing to win all four remaining pool matches to make the Champions Cup quarter-finals. Exacerbating the result, Hooper suggested that Cokanasiga could miss a large portion of this season.

“Ultimately, Joe has come back to us unable to train,” Hooper said. “From that point is when we work out exactly what’s wrong with him and what the history of the injury is and then how we move forward.”

Cokanasiga only appeared once for England in Japan, scoring two tries in a 45-7 group-stage victory over USA. He did not feature in any other match-day squads and his left knee was often heavily strapped for training sessions.

Hooper vowed to “start communication with the RFU” and explained that Bath are frustrated because England did not appear to convey to them, or to Cokanasiga, how serious the injury was. “We want the guys to come back and be available to play for us,” he said. “If people get injured, that happens. But we need to make sure that we aware of everything that is happening so that when we do get them get back, we’ve got a decent plan moving forward."

Telegraph Sport understands that the RFU are disappointed with Hooper’s comments. A spokesperson for the union said: “We are in ongoing conversations with Bath Rugby about Joe’s injury. In the best interests of the player, we won’t be discussing our views publicly on this matter. The welfare England players are paramount to us and our world-class medical team will always act in their best interests.”

“We were talking to the guys but we get limited information,” Hooper added. “We obviously weren’t out in Japan. We were back here in Bath and dealing with our squad and the information they give us. We’d been kept on top of where Joe was at but what we saw when he got back was a bit different.”

by Gooseberry Mon 25 Nov 2019, 9:34 am

LondonTiger wrote:They mentioned that time for 100m during the TV commentary. Of course it is not especially quick when compared to some players - but without knowing age, conditions etc it is hard to be sure.

According to British Athletics he ran 11.03 in an under 17s race, he didnt even make the final of the schools 100m so fast but not spectacular. Looks like he stopped sprinting after that year, he played rugby at university. Its not impossible hes got faster in that time, but realistically hes just quick rather than a Dwain Chambers. Tom Croft supposedly ran sub 11 at school, although thats a bit dubious

by Geordie Mon 25 Nov 2019, 10:41 am

Dwain Chambers also showed that being a sprinter in Rugby means didly...

I can only think of the Welsh winger who made the transition from Athletics to Rugby...reasonably successfully.

by Geordie Mon 25 Nov 2019, 10:41 am

How long is Watson out for?

by Guest Mon 25 Nov 2019, 10:50 am

Tom James?

100m is often meaningless for rugby anyway. What makes a good 100m sprinter - or a bad one - doesn't equate to a poor or good rugby sprinter. You just need to be fast over 20m and 60m. Anyone in and around 11 seconds will be rugby-fast and it's the way the game is going, in every position.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 25 Nov 2019, 10:58 am

miaow wrote:Tom James?

100m is often meaningless for rugby anyway. What makes a good 100m sprinter - or a bad one - doesn't equate to a poor or good rugby sprinter. You just need to be fast over 20m and 60m. Anyone in and around 11 seconds will be rugby-fast and it's the way the game is going, in every position.

Nigel Walker I assume.

by Cumbrian Mon 25 Nov 2019, 11:14 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:How long is Watson out for?

Didn't see the game, but the photos of him writhing in pain and clutching his knee aren't very encouraging. Hope it isn't too bad.

Segun put in a good performance, but I don't know if he has enough to be a standout international winger. He didn't seem to do anything exceptional that would put him above his peers on an international stage. In context, Sarries were beefing what seems to be a (sadly) much diminished Osprey's side.

Earls has looked good in the games I have seen, but I wonder if he will be another Jackson Wray type player who looks superb for Saracens but doesn't quite get a break at international level.

by Gooseberry Mon 25 Nov 2019, 11:52 am

Theres an Olympic medalist in the Jamiaca sevens side. Not sure if that really counts as success in rugby terms though.

by **Rugby Fan** Mon 25 Nov 2019, 12:01 pm

It's not just outright speed that fast rugby players need, it's repeatability.

by Geordie Mon 25 Nov 2019, 12:45 pm

Clearly 7's is a very different game to 15s where sprinters probably have more success like Carlin Isles etc.

by king_carlos Mon 25 Nov 2019, 1:02 pm

Watson has had no luck with injuries. When he went down initially I thought, oh no there goes his achilles tendon for a third time. It's sums up his struggles that a knee injury is almost a relief.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 25 Nov 2019, 1:04 pm

king_carlos wrote:Watson has had no luck with injuries. When he went down initially I thought, oh no there goes his achilles tendon for a third time. It's sums up his struggles that a knee injury is almost a relief.

What worries me is that (according to teh Bath Chronicle) he went back on for a few minutes after being strapped up.

by king_carlos Mon 25 Nov 2019, 1:37 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Watson has had no luck with injuries. When he went down initially I thought, oh no there goes his achilles tendon for a third time. It's sums up his struggles that a knee injury is almost a relief.

What worries me is that (according to teh Bath Chronicle) he went back on for a few minutes after being strapped up.

It's a growing trend for players to play on whilst practically taped together. I often wonder how much heavy knee or ankle strapping hinders movement.

Manu looked a different player once he finally got back to playing without strapping. Similar for Will Evans now he is at Quins without his knee wrapped in physio tape.

Jon Davies in the semi-final and 3rd/4th playoff is an obvious recent example of a player so heavily strapped that he seemed to be struggling to run.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 26 Nov 2019, 9:11 am

As expected Wisemantel has moved on. Shame as we've looked class since he became involved. Hope jones doesnt decide to do it himself again.

Scott Wisemantel: England attack coach leaves Eddie Jones' backroom team - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50553733

by Geordie Tue 26 Nov 2019, 1:43 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:As expected Wisemantel has moved on. Shame as we've looked class since he became involved. Hope jones doesnt decide to do it himself again.

Scott Wisemantel: England attack coach leaves Eddie Jones' backroom team - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50553733

Class? Not quite so sure. Improved yes.

Hopefully we can move on now. We a team that currently and histrically loses the key crucial game...the Grand Slam decider, the World Cup final, etc etc.

We're always the bridesmaid never the bride so to speak.
I didnt expect a final this world cup...but i said before this world cup...that the next one is ours. If thats to happen we have to throw off that nearly man tag. We have to win a couple of Grand slams and clean sweep AIs....

by No 7&1/2 Tue 26 Nov 2019, 2:03 pm

No. I'd stick with class to be fair.

by Geordie Tue 26 Nov 2019, 2:13 pm

Then we'll agree to disgree... thumbsup

by No 7&1/2 Tue 26 Nov 2019, 2:38 pm

Which attack has looked as good in the time he was with us? Youd throw in the obvious nz and australia but then you could easily beat them with the same criticism.
I realise that some of that impact is down to mitchell et al.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 26 Nov 2019, 3:14 pm

The attack has looked good when we have front foot ball. Just too many occasions (Wales in Cardiff, SA) when a resolute defence has left us bereft of ideas.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 26 Nov 2019, 3:29 pm

No one hasn't been stopped in those 18 months. If class means unstoppable then no team qualifies!

by Geordie Tue 26 Nov 2019, 4:07 pm

ANd i would agree no team qualifies...

by **LondonTiger** Tue 26 Nov 2019, 4:20 pm

There are a few teams who are "good on their day".

SA managed to have enough good days to win the WC and 4Ns
Wales managed to have enough good days to win the 6Ns and a GS
We had enough good days to beat Ireland and NZ.

I rank the achievements of the countries in that order.

by king_carlos Tue 26 Nov 2019, 5:13 pm

Alex Lowe seems to think Borthwick has committed to staying for the 6 Nations, unless Jones can find a suitable replacement earlier.

I wonder whether Rob Hunter might be in the running. With Rob Baxter as DOR and Ali Hepher as head coach he has arguably hit a ceiling at Exeter currently. 3-years with England running into the next RWC could set him up well for a head coach role going forward. He is a very respected forwards coach.

by Guest Tue 26 Nov 2019, 5:42 pm

Can't see Baxter leaving. There's European glory up for grabs. You need to see him for what he is - a modern day rarity, a real clubman, and - if not a visionary - not far off. I'd be amazed if Baxter has another job after Exeter tbh. The time is now for Exeter to pick up another 2-3 Prem titles and have a solid shot at the ECC with Saracens hopefully being forced to change their cheating ways.

Borthwick appears to be one of - if not the - best lineout operator in the game. I imagine he'll be back in the England set up within the decade, but no harm in learning in the club game for a while. Might look to make the step up to DoR/Head Coach.

Wiestmantel coincided with England improving their attack, that's for sure, but it was hardly a departure from 2016. I'd suggest that it was the training that made the difference, as their accuracy, comfort, and decision making on the ball was improved from 16/17. You're never going to turn English rugby players in to Kiwis or Fijians - you're unlikely to even have the broken field instinct and ability of the Welsh and the French. But he did his job.

Big test for EJ. Time to see if the fire is there.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 26 Nov 2019, 6:31 pm

Watson out until Christmas so probably makes it back in time for the 6 nations.

by king_carlos Tue 26 Nov 2019, 9:06 pm

miaow wrote:Can't see Baxter leaving. There's European glory up for grabs. You need to see him for what he is - a modern day rarity, a real clubman, and - if not a visionary - not far off. I'd be amazed if Baxter has another job after Exeter tbh. The time is now for Exeter to pick up another 2-3 Prem titles and have a solid shot at the ECC with Saracens hopefully being forced to change their cheating ways.

I'm suggesting Rob Hunter, the Exeter forwards coach, rather than Baxter.

I can only see Baxter leaving Chiefs for an international head coach opportunity. Even then he probably won't feel his jobs done until/if Exeter overcome their issues converting Prem success into Europe.

Hunter has a fantastic reputation and has overseen one of the best packs in Europe being built at Chiefs. Critically forwards have a tendency to improve a lot under his coaching.

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