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Who was better for England?.... Shearer or Gazza?

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Post by Brady12 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 2:35 pm

This sparked a heated debate at a recent BBQ I attended so I thought i'd throw it out on here.....

For the National team who had a better career?

I said Shearer due to his consistency. 1 in 2 in 60 internationals for a striker is an excellent record. Formed an outstanding patnership with Teddy Sheringham & was the top scorer at Euro 96... At a time when England had a embarrassment of riches up front (Folwer, Cole, Collymore, Wright, Ferdinand etc) he was the undoubted number 1.

Gazza was brilliant in flashes but too unpredictable, when people say he's the best England Midfielder of the last 20 odd years well i'd say Scholes & Gerrard are both better


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Post by legendkillar on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 2:41 pm

It has to be Shearer. Was very much a big part of the successful run at Euro 96, he captained the national side and had a far greater sense of responsibility for the team than Gascoigne. Both great representatives for the country.

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Post by braveheart101 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 2:43 pm

Brady12 wrote:This sparked a heated debate at a recent BBQ I attended so I thought i'd throw it out on here.....

For the National team who had a better career?

I said Shearer due to his consistency. 1 in 2 in 60 internationals for a striker is an excellent record. Formed an outstanding patnership with Teddy Sheringham & was the top scorer at Euro 96... At a time when England had a embarrassment of riches up front (Folwer, Cole, Collymore, Wright, Ferdinand etc) he was the undoubted number 1.

Gazza was brilliant in flashes but too unpredictable, when people say he's the best England Midfielder of the last 20 odd years well i'd say Scholes & Gerrard are both better

Can you really try comparing two players who played different positions. Id rather compare Shearer with Lineker and Gazza with someone like Barnes

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Post by Brady12 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 2:59 pm

braveheart101 wrote:
Brady12 wrote:This sparked a heated debate at a recent BBQ I attended so I thought i'd throw it out on here.....

For the National team who had a better career?

I said Shearer due to his consistency. 1 in 2 in 60 internationals for a striker is an excellent record. Formed an outstanding patnership with Teddy Sheringham & was the top scorer at Euro 96... At a time when England had a embarrassment of riches up front (Folwer, Cole, Collymore, Wright, Ferdinand etc) he was the undoubted number 1.

Gazza was brilliant in flashes but too unpredictable, when people say he's the best England Midfielder of the last 20 odd years well i'd say Scholes & Gerrard are both better

Can you really try comparing two players who played different positions. Id rather compare Shearer with Lineker and Gazza with someone like Barnes

I thought someone would say this but I think you can when you are talking about what impact they had on the national team.... Barnes was a left winger where as Gazza played centre mid by the way

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Post by braveheart101 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 3:20 pm

Brady12 wrote:
I thought someone would say this but I think you can when you are talking about what impact they had on the national team.... Barnes was a left winger where as Gazza played centre mid by the way
I know that but Barnes was the only other midfield player I can remember from the past 25 years that had the ability to go past 4 or 5 players and score. If I had to choose between Shearer and Gazza I'd have to say Gazza just shades it after his performances at 1990 world cup and 1996 euro finals

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Post by Brady12 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 3:47 pm

braveheart101 wrote:
Brady12 wrote:
I thought someone would say this but I think you can when you are talking about what impact they had on the national team.... Barnes was a left winger where as Gazza played centre mid by the way
I know that but Barnes was the only other midfield player I can remember from the past 25 years that had the ability to go past 4 or 5 players and score. If I had to choose between Shearer and Gazza I'd have to say Gazza just shades it after his performances at 1990 world cup and 1996 euro finals

Granted he was good in Italia 90 but I don't think he was anything special in Euro 96 apart from that class goal against Scotland. The best attacking England players in Euro 96 were Shearer, Sheringham & McManaman

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Post by Il Gialloblu on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 3:52 pm

I would go for Shearer. Ok, Gazza did well in both Italia '90 and Euro '96 but if you look at Euro '96 alone, Shearer had a better tournament in my eyes.

I'm not just basing this on Euro '96 by the way. The longevity and consistency is a big thing for me. And opposing defenders knew, if Shearer was playing, they weren't going to have an easy time of it.

If we could have a peak Shearer or a peak Gazza in the side now, I would go for a peak Shearer.
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Post by Brady12 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 3:59 pm

Il Gialloblu wrote:I would go for Shearer. Ok, Gazza did well in both Italia '90 and Euro '96 but if you look at Euro '96 alone, Shearer had a better tournament in my eyes.

I'm not just basing this on Euro '96 by the way. The longevity and consistency is a big thing for me. And opposing defenders knew, if Shearer was playing, they weren't going to have an easy time of it.

If we could have a peak Shearer or a peak Gazza in the side now, I would go for a peak Shearer.

I agree a pal of mine said it best at BBQ... If you had a graph with the performances of Gazza it would be up, down, up, down (basically full of peaks & troughs)... For Shearer you'd have a horizontal line which wouldn't be as high as Gazza's at its peak but would be no where near where gazza's troughs

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Post by braveheart101 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 4:04 pm

Il Gialloblu wrote:I would go for Shearer. Ok, Gazza did well in both Italia '90 and Euro '96 but if you look at Euro '96 alone, Shearer had a better tournament in my eyes.

I'm not just basing this on Euro '96 by the way. The longevity and consistency is a big thing for me. And opposing defenders knew, if Shearer was playing, they weren't going to have an easy time of it.

If we could have a peak Shearer or a peak Gazza in the side now, I would go for a peak Shearer.
Even though Gazza nearly almost single handedly got England to 1990 World Cup final

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Post by braveheart101 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 4:08 pm

And Gazza's international career was 2 years longer than Shearer's so the longevity point has to be in Gazza's favour rather than Shearer's

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Post by Brady12 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 4:20 pm

braveheart101 wrote:And Gazza's international career was 2 years longer than Shearer's so the longevity point has to be in Gazza's favour rather than Shearer's

??? I think you'll find Shearer had more caps so that blows that one right out of the water....

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Post by Brady12 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 4:24 pm

braveheart101 wrote:
Il Gialloblu wrote:I would go for Shearer. Ok, Gazza did well in both Italia '90 and Euro '96 but if you look at Euro '96 alone, Shearer had a better tournament in my eyes.

I'm not just basing this on Euro '96 by the way. The longevity and consistency is a big thing for me. And opposing defenders knew, if Shearer was playing, they weren't going to have an easy time of it.

If we could have a peak Shearer or a peak Gazza in the side now, I would go for a peak Shearer.
Even though Gazza nearly almost single handedly got England to 1990 World Cup final

??? Again another daft comment Gazza didn't even score in the tournament so suggest he almost single-handedly got England to the final is ludicrous

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Post by braveheart101 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 4:41 pm

Brady12 wrote:
??? Again another daft comment Gazza didn't even score in the tournament so suggest he almost single-handedly got England to the final is ludicrous
Did you watch a different match then, Gazza tormented Germany for the whole game. As for having to score goals to have a good game/tournament is ridiculous. You said Mcmanaman had a better tournament at Euro 96 than Gazza but he didn't score whereas Gazza did so that contradicts that argument.

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Post by Il Gialloblu on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 4:47 pm

braveheart101 wrote:
Il Gialloblu wrote:I would go for Shearer. Ok, Gazza did well in both Italia '90 and Euro '96 but if you look at Euro '96 alone, Shearer had a better tournament in my eyes.

I'm not just basing this on Euro '96 by the way. The longevity and consistency is a big thing for me. And opposing defenders knew, if Shearer was playing, they weren't going to have an easy time of it.

If we could have a peak Shearer or a peak Gazza in the side now, I would go for a peak Shearer.
Even though Gazza nearly almost single handedly got England to 1990 World Cup final

Yes, I agree Gazza did well at a tournament that Shearer wasn't even playing in. It certainly counts in his favour but he argubly never reached those heights again. Anyway, I was just looking at the performances of each man at Euro 96. I know this doesn't give the full picture of their careers but Shearer was on a different level during that tournament. If you're saying somebody almost single-handedly got England to a major final, which is not something I would say about either man, perhaps you could say the same about Shearer during Euro 96.

By the way, to the OP, I've just re-read your original post and realised you were at a BBQ. I misread it at first and thought it strange you were having this debate in B&Q.
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Post by Brady12 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 4:52 pm

braveheart101 wrote:
Brady12 wrote:
??? Again another daft comment Gazza didn't even score in the tournament so suggest he almost single-handedly got England to the final is ludicrous
Did you watch a different match then, Gazza tormented Germany for the whole game. As for having to score goals to have a good game/tournament is ridiculous. You said Mcmanaman had a better tournament at Euro 96 than Gazza but he didn't score whereas Gazza did so that contradicts that argument.

Whats the point in arguing for the sake of it?


You said 'Even though Gazza nearly almost single handedly got England to 1990 World Cup final' - I said McManaman was one of England's top 3 offensive players during Euro 96 its hardly the same thing

🤦

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Post by braveheart101 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 4:58 pm

If McManaman was one of the best offensive players why didn't he score and Gazza did. The point I was making was that Gazza had the ability to go past 4 or 5 players and either score or provide an assist, which other players could do that for England

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Post by Brady12 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 5:03 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQEAUYu8tnw

I don't rate McManaman in Gazza's class but I think he was better at Euro 96 & judging by his exploits in Madrid he had a more successful career

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Post by legendkillar on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 5:55 pm

We are slightly going off topic here if we are talking about club success.

Shearer may have had more caps, but Gascoigne's career in international terms was longer considering that Shearer didn't start playing frequently for England until around 1994. He didn't score an international goal until 1996 in the European Championships. So in a sense we could argue that Shearer's peak for England was for 4 years.

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Post by Brady12 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 6:14 pm

legendkillar wrote:We are slightly going off topic here if we are talking about club success.

Shearer may have had more caps, but Gascoigne's career in international terms was longer considering that Shearer didn't start playing frequently for England until around 1994. He didn't score an international goal until 1996 in the European Championships. So in a sense we could argue that Shearer's peak for England was for 4 years.

Surely the length of international career is judged on caps? Of which Shearer has more. I wouldn't say Wes Brown had a longer international career than either but from his 1st cap to his last is probably 10 years I guess

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Post by legendkillar on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 6:18 pm

Not specifically on caps. Some of the caps a subs appearences too, so the amount of caps shouldn't be the only yardstick used to judge a players international career. Look a Crouch. If we went by stats we would say he is one of the most prolific strikers of a generation.

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Post by Brady12 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 6:32 pm

legendkillar wrote:Not specifically on caps. Some of the caps a subs appearences too, so the amount of caps shouldn't be the only yardstick used to judge a players international career. Look a Crouch. If we went by stats we would say he is one of the most prolific strikers of a generation.

Shearer & Gazza weren't subs for England....

Are you seriously comparing Crouch to Shearer?

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Post by legendkillar on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 6:36 pm

Who said about comparing? I am saying that quantity of caps is not a representation of quality for crying out loud.

Gascoigne and Shearer made appearences as subs, but not many at all.

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Post by braveheart101 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 6:41 pm

Brady12 wrote:
legendkillar wrote:We are slightly going off topic here if we are talking about club success.

Shearer may have had more caps, but Gascoigne's career in international terms was longer considering that Shearer didn't start playing frequently for England until around 1994. He didn't score an international goal until 1996 in the European Championships. So in a sense we could argue that Shearer's peak for England was for 4 years.

Surely the length of international career is judged on caps? Of which Shearer has more. I wouldn't say Wes Brown had a longer international career than either but from his 1st cap to his last is probably 10 years I guess
You seem to forget Gazza missed the entire 91/92 season so could well have won as many caps as Shearer seeing as theres only a difference of 6.

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Post by braveheart101 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 6:47 pm

Brady12 wrote:
For the National team who had a better career?

I said Shearer due to his consistency. 1 in 2 in 60 internationals for a striker is an excellent record. Formed an outstanding patnership with Teddy Sheringham & was the top scorer at Euro 96... At a time when England had a embarrassment of riches up front (Folwer, Cole, Collymore, Wright, Ferdinand etc) he was the undoubted number 1.
How are you working out who's the better player? As I see it it's by the number of goals scored which is unfair as Shearer was a striker and Gazza was a midfielder. As for consistency isn't that just a matter of opinion rather than down to facts?
Oh and can you really say Collymore was one of England's best strikers at that time

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Post by legendkillar on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 6:50 pm

Let me give you an example of the arguement I am putting across

Tony Adams - 66 Caps - 5 Goals. Debut 1987. Final appearance 2000
John Terry - 68 Caps - 6 Goals. Debut 2003.

Who would be judged as the better defender?

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Post by braveheart101 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 6:54 pm

legendkillar wrote:Let me give you an example of the arguement I am putting across

Tony Adams - 66 Caps - 5 Goals. Debut 1987. Final appearance 2000
John Terry - 68 Caps - 6 Goals. Debut 2003.

Who would be judged as the better defender?
Thats exactly my point surely you can only compare players that have played in the same position.
Adams would win that one hands down

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Post by Guest on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 6:57 pm

Gazza for me. He captured the public's imagination more than any other player in an England shirt.

We were blessed with great strikers during 90-98 and I believe Robbie Fowler, Ian Wright and even Les Ferdinand could have done as good a job as Shearer given a run of games.

I'll never get all the Euro 96 stuff. We won two matches and were lucky not to have been knocked out in the quarter final after Spain scored a perfectly good goal. It was a poor tournament.

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Post by legendkillar on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 7:09 pm

braveheart101 wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Let me give you an example of the arguement I am putting across

Tony Adams - 66 Caps - 5 Goals. Debut 1987. Final appearance 2000
John Terry - 68 Caps - 6 Goals. Debut 2003.

Who would be judged as the better defender?
Thats exactly my point surely you can only compare players that have played in the same position.
Adams would win that one hands down

But then to the OP Terry will win more caps, thus making him the better defender.

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Post by braveheart101 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 7:13 pm

Another point to make if you are going to use the fact that Shearer was top scorer at Euro 96 as a point is that England only beat Scotland and Holland and lost to a weaker German team than they did in 1990

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Post by legendkillar on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 7:15 pm

Very true point BH101

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Post by braveheart101 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 7:19 pm

legendkillar wrote:
But then to the OP Terry will win more caps, thus making him the better defender.
Yeh and thats coming from someone who 'knew more about football when he was 10 than anyone ever will' and if someone doesn't agree with his opinion 'they are morons'
The sooner he takes those rose tinted glasses off the better

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Post by Brady12 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 7:22 pm

If you can't make an objective decision because they don't play the same position then don't get involved in the discussion. I'm sorry but I can

I am not basing this on goals as I'm sure anyone with half a brain knows. Impact on the national team

Terry & Adams is a tough one both great defenders & leaders for there country.

Shearer & Gazza didn't play in an era of endless meaningless friendlies where loads of subs were made at 1/2 time. Their cap total is legit.

Shearer was more consistent for England that's what I'm judging it on.

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Post by Guest on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 7:24 pm

braveheart101 wrote:
legendkillar wrote:
But then to the OP Terry will win more caps, thus making him the better defender.
Yeh and thats coming from someone who 'knew more about football when he was 10 than anyone ever will' and if someone doesn't agree with his opinion 'they are morons'
The sooner he takes those rose tinted glasses off the better

Well said Braveheart.

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Post by braveheart101 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 7:30 pm

Brady12 wrote:If you can't make an objective decision because they don't play the same position then don't get involved in the discussion. I'm sorry but I can

I am not basing this on goals as I'm sure anyone with half a brain knows. Impact on the national team

Terry & Adams is a tough one both great defenders & leaders for there country.

Shearer & Gazza didn't play in an era of endless meaningless friendlies where loads of subs were made at 1/2 time. Their cap total is legit.

Shearer was more consistent for England that's what I'm judging it on.
What are you basing it on then Brady. Impact either had on the team is a personal opinion and no facts can back that up as they PLAYED DIFFERENT POSITIONS.
Terry a great leader for their country, don't make me laugh, after whats happened with him off the pitch he's lost so much respect from fellow players.

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Post by legendkillar on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 7:32 pm

Brady12 wrote:If you can't make an objective decision because they don't play the same position then don't get involved in the discussion. I'm sorry but I can

I am not basing this on goals as I'm sure anyone with half a brain knows. Impact on the national team

Terry & Adams is a tough one both great defenders & leaders for there country.

Shearer & Gazza didn't play in an era of endless meaningless friendlies where loads of subs were made at 1/2 time. Their cap total is legit.

Shearer was more consistent for England that's what I'm judging it on.

I said Shearer. Not due to goals or caps. I did because he played with responsibility to his team and fans and himself. Gascoigne played more freely for England and played with a smile and enjoyed it more as a fan. Both players played fantastically in Euro96. The difference between the Gazza of Itallia90 and Euro96 was maturity. Shearer underachieved like I said previously based on the fact he peaked for 4 years between 1996 and 2000, whereas Gazza put in excellent performances between 1990-1997. Like I said goals and caps are irrelevant in this debate.

And please less of the insults. This is opinion and people have given their's and there is no need to criticise peoples opinions because they differ from yours. Be respectful to others.

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Post by Brady12 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 7:38 pm

FreekShow wrote:Gazza for me. He captured the public's imagination more than any other player in an England shirt.

We were blessed with great strikers during 90-98 and I believe Robbie Fowler, Ian Wright and even Les Ferdinand could have done as good a job as Shearer given a run of games.

I'll never get all the Euro 96 stuff. We won two matches and were lucky not to have been knocked out in the quarter final after Spain scored a perfectly good goal. It was a poor tournament.

Where do we start?
Capturing the publics imagination? This makes you a better player?
Ian Wright, Robbie Fowler & Les Ferdinand were all as good as Shearer? Really how many times were each of them the worlds most expensive player? How many times did they score 30 prem goals in a season?
We beat the footballing super powers of Egypt, Belgium & Cameroon in Italia 90 I'd say we were as lucky in that tournament if not luckier than Euro 96

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Post by Brady12 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 7:41 pm

Well said Legendkillar... At last a well argued point, without daft knit picking

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Post by Guest on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 7:48 pm

Brady if I told you it was June you would argue that it's July. Guess what?....it's just an opinion.

As is my opinion that Teddy Sherringham was a more important player in that Euro 96 side than Shearer.

But what do I know? You knew more than me when you was 10 years old.

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Post by legendkillar on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 7:51 pm

Please guys can we lay off the bickering.

Please respect each others opinions even if they are different.

Thanks.

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Post by braveheart101 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 8:12 pm

Wright joined Arsenal for a club record fee of 2.5 million in 1991 and stayed there till 1998 when he was 34.
Shearer joined Blackburn for a British record fee of 3.3 million in 1992 then joined Newcastle for World record fee of 15 million in 1996.
Fowler came from Liverpool's academy and joined Leeds in 2001 as he wasn't in Houllier's plans.
How you can say transfer fee's determine how good each player is when they are all from different years is beyond me.
As for scoring records fair enough Shearer is the only one that has scored over 30 league goals in a season but you missed out the point that he played more games than Wright and Fowler to achieve that
Most goals in a season to games played
Shearer 34 in 42 games (1 goal every 1.23 games)
Wright 24 in 30 games (1 goal every 1.25 games)
Fowler 28 in 38 games (1 goal every 1.35 games)
Ferdinand 25 in 37 games (1 goal every 1.48 games)


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Post by braveheart101 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 8:16 pm

legendkillar wrote:Please guys can we lay off the bickering.

Please respect each others opinions even if they are different.

Thanks.
I was just quoting Brady from another thread where he was calling people with different opinions 'morons' and on this one if you don't agree with him you are 'brainless'

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Post by braveheart101 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 8:20 pm

Brady12 wrote:
Where do we start?
Capturing the publics imagination? This makes you a better player?
Ian Wright, Robbie Fowler & Les Ferdinand were all as good as Shearer? Really how many times were each of them the worlds most expensive player? How many times did they score 30 prem goals in a season?
Strange thing is as good a player Shearer was and for all his goals and being the worlds most expensive player how many medals did he end up with. One league winners medal isn't bad for the best player of his generation is it

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Post by Brady12 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 8:28 pm

braveheart101 wrote:Wright joined Arsenal for a club record fee of 2.5 million in 1991 and stayed there till 1998 when he was 34.
Shearer joined Blackburn for a British record fee of 3.3 million in 1992 then joined Newcastle for World record fee of 15 million in 1996.
Fowler came from Liverpool's academy and joined Leeds in 2001 as he wasn't in Houllier's plans.
How you can say transfer fee's determine how good each player is when they are all from different years is beyond me.
As for scoring records fair enough Shearer is the only one that has scored over 30 league goals in a season but you missed out the point that he played more games than Wright and Fowler to achieve that
Most goals in a season to games played
Shearer 34 in 42 games (1 goal every 1.23 games)
Wright 24 in 30 games (1 goal every 1.25 games)
Fowler 28 in 38 games (1 goal every 1.35 games)
Ferdinand 25 in 37 games (1 goal every 1.48 games)


??? Just run me through there England records please.... Shearer was the main man under Venables, Hoddle & Hoddle - better judges of players than you I reckon.

Why bring up other topics I couldn't care less. Judge each topic on there merits


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Post by Brady12 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 8:30 pm

braveheart101 wrote:
Brady12 wrote:
Where do we start?
Capturing the publics imagination? This makes you a better player?
Ian Wright, Robbie Fowler & Les Ferdinand were all as good as Shearer? Really how many times were each of them the worlds most expensive player? How many times did they score 30 prem goals in a season?
Strange thing is as good a player Shearer was and for all his goals and being the worlds most expensive player how many medals did he end up with. One league winners medal isn't bad for the best player of his generation is it

We ain't basing this on medals you tool

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Post by legendkillar on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 8:31 pm

Brady12 wrote:
braveheart101 wrote:
Brady12 wrote:
Where do we start?
Capturing the publics imagination? This makes you a better player?
Ian Wright, Robbie Fowler & Les Ferdinand were all as good as Shearer? Really how many times were each of them the worlds most expensive player? How many times did they score 30 prem goals in a season?
Strange thing is as good a player Shearer was and for all his goals and being the worlds most expensive player how many medals did he end up with. One league winners medal isn't bad for the best player of his generation is it

We ain't basing this on medals you tool

What did I say earlier?

No insults!

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Post by Guest on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 8:35 pm

You've just answered your question right there Brady. He was THE main man under them coaches meaning he had more game time.

You can't tell me a pomp Fowler or Wright wouldn't have put away the chances Shearer did?

And a 21 year old Robbie Fowler would have fetched more than 15 million quid had he been sold in 1996.

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Post by Brady12 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 8:37 pm

I'm happy with 62%

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Post by Guest on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 8:37 pm

I'm sure this can debated sensibly without the need to belittle other people's opinions or resorting to insults and name calling. Keep it clean please. OK

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Post by Brady12 on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 8:39 pm

Freek - Shearer was the best striker of his generation... Are you saying he wasn't picked on merit? What is your point?

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Post by AberdeenSteve on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 8:41 pm

Gazza for me; but I have to agree with braveheart on that it is difficult to compare players of different positions. You are looking at completely different characteristics for both positions but Gazza is a one of a kind player!

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