Six nations final standings predictions?

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Post by maestegmafia on Sat 11 Jan 2020, 10:10 am

First topic message reminder :

So how do you think your beloved nation will fair this time round. We have already had a few predictions on the boards this week. Let’s see people nail their colours to the mast for the opening weekend is not far away now. I’ve managed to find a few quotes by different posters from the different nations on their thoughts of their own team or their opponents.

It’s not easy to find many posts where people lay down their cards, hence wanting to see where people’s thoughts on the final standings might be.

First up we have Wales welcoming Italy to Cardiff. The bookies have Wales picked to come third overall and Italy to grab another wooden spoon but both teams have new coaches and there are a few elements of change ahead in their squads and their philosophies. The fans are a mix in wales on the prospective good fortune of a new rugby ethos and the limitation of being a tiny nation fighting against giants. “That's what Pivac will be dealing with in the next 2-3 years as Jon Davies, Biggar, AWJ, Halfpenny etc. wind down and retire. There are some good prospects coming through, but particularly in the midfield, we look weak...” Wales  and their coaches will need to make an impressive start to this campaign, while Italy have nothing to lose and a growing pool of talent.

Next we have Ireland entertaining Scotland in Dublin. After both nations fans likely feel a little underwhelmed post RWC2019, maybe now is the time to set the record straight. Ireland have changed their head coach, will they change their squad...? Scotland have some exciting players but can they get them enough ball to do the damage they need to win....? The bookies have Ireland to come second Scotland to come fourth. There is some jubilant wise old Irish heads stating “I'm calling it, 2020 will be a good year ..” the Scots are off to Spain for a pre six nations training camp maybe They can rectify a few faults as one fan said “This squad has a soft underbelly which has been exposed time and again. It needs mentally tough individuals who refuse to lie down to anyone / thing.”

England make the trip to Paris first up on Sunday the 2nd of February. It all depends which French team turns up for any encounter against the French but in this case they have new coaches 19 new players all uncapped as well as new kit and a new pair of boots. There is plenty to ponder on. Though it looks like they are being written off. One young upstart has already written off the French on these boards stating “4th/5th finish for them in the 6Ns. They’re just lucky that Italy are utterly dire and getting worse year on year.”...! Will his words ring true or may Monday the third of February see un peu des oeuf sur son visage...?


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Post by carpet baboon on Mon 20 Jan 2020, 9:28 am

Gooseberry wrote:Given most of them will be looking for contracts in teams with their England teammates I suspect they are more likely to be bringing bags of toffees.

That's how i see it going to be honest

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Post by TightHEAD on Mon 20 Jan 2020, 12:15 pm

Looking at the England squad someone at the RFU better contact Canterbury and get them to put the Grand Slam t-shirt order on hold.
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Post by Welshmushroom on Tue 21 Jan 2020, 3:37 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:I'll wait until all the squads are announced.

I'd imagine both Wales and Ireland head coaches will stick with tried and tested players largely (with the occasional form new cap).  Both coaches have massive jobs on their hands as the fans wont be happy if they don't have a good 6 nations.

France have just started a total overhaul.  That lack of experience could seriously hurt them this 6 Nations.  However in terms of WC2023 preparations they could end up ahead of Wales and Ireland who both will need to bring in new players as quite a few of their current top players won't make it to the next world cup.

Italy, Scotland & England could go either either route (short term or long term planning).  I'll wait till I see those squads before predicting results.

Ok so having seen the squad annoucements I have decided to take a punt as follows:-

1. Wales
2. England
3. Ireland
4. Scotland
5. Italy
6. France

I suspect France will go experimental against Italy with them having home advantage.  Looking at the side Italy have picked there is a fair bit of experience playing in the Pro14 and 6 Nations.  I think Italy will look to target this game as one of 2 games they could win (Scotland being the other).  

I've gone for Wales to win again.  On paper I think they have a much stronger squad in terms of experience than both Ireland & England.  Granted matches are not won on paper but for me experience and the new coach factor are things that will no doubt be in Wales favour this year.  

England are hard to discount at second place.  They look well stocked in the front 5.  For me though they dont look particularly well stocked at Centre and I cant seen Tuilagi & Joseph playing every game although no doubt he will throw Farrell in there for the odd match if he starts with Ford at 10.  They also have home advantage but I've still got Wales slightly ahead just based on the extra experience they within the squad.

Ireland on paper don't look great to me.  Think Farell Senior got caught between a rock and a hard place.  Some key injuries to Ireland really havent helped him much either.  They look light at Hooker & Backrow to me which will be critical against both Wales & England.  Can see them finishing third as I think they still will edge Scotland.

Scotland should beat France and Italy.  That's about it.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Tue 21 Jan 2020, 3:57 pm

England’s hardest game should be their first, get a w here & I think we will top the championship.
I see all other teams with a 3-2 win loss ratio other than Italy.

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Post by Welshmushroom on Tue 21 Jan 2020, 4:01 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:England’s hardest game should be their first, get a w here & I think we will top the championship.
I see all other teams with a 3-2 win loss ratio other than Italy.

I'm assuming you therefore think England will have a 4-1 ratio or are you tipping them for the Slam?

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Post by Welshmushroom on Tue 21 Jan 2020, 4:10 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:England’s hardest game should be their first, get a w here & I think we will top the championship.
I see all other teams with a 3-2 win loss ratio other than Italy.

Also no disrepect to France here but with the squad they have selected I somehow doubt this match represents England's hardest challange. I would expect England, Wales and Ireland to turn them over regardless of home advantage.

Would have thought Scotland at Murrayfield would be considerably harder to win than this game not to mention R3 & R4.

I also dont see them winning both of the following matches at home against Ireland and Wales. Reckon they will come away with 1 win 1 loss from those fixtures.




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Post by Khouli Khan on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 7:06 am

Welshmushroom wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:England’s hardest game should be their first, get a w here & I think we will top the championship.
I see all other teams with a 3-2 win loss ratio other than Italy.

Also no disrepect to France here but with the squad they have selected I somehow doubt this match represents England's hardest challange.  I would expect England, Wales and Ireland to turn them over regardless of home advantage.  

Would have thought Scotland at Murrayfield would be considerably harder to win than this game not to mention R3 & R4.

I also dont see them winning both of the following matches at home against Ireland and Wales.  Reckon they will come away with 1 win 1 loss from those fixtures.



 

France have a lot of new, and very, very talented players joining the team - have you seen them play? Some of them are mesmerizing. Couple that with the Sean Edwards factor and an opening fixture in Paris against an English side with at least a third of them perhaps with minds on other things. A win for them in Paris will give them big confidence and a reason 'to turn up' for the remaining fixtures.

I wouldn't bet against France to win this year. England could finish third or even fourth, but Wales will not be topping the table - I would bet on that.

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Post by Cyril on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 7:35 am

England very, very strong favourites according to the poll. Given that studies have shown that voting online is very much a Celtic thing it would appear that this view is spread across the nations.

My latest thoughts

England
France
Wales/Ireland
Italy/Scotland

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Post by Khouli Khan on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 7:39 am

Cyril wrote:England very, very strong favourites according to the poll. Given that studies have shown that voting online is very much a Celtic thing it would appear that this view is spread across the nations.

My latest thoughts

England
France
Wales/Ireland
Italy/Scotland

If the fiasco at Saracens hasn't damaged their England contingent's psyche too much - then I think England are by far the strongest team. Witness their WC performance, which while it fell at the last hurdle, was impressive when compared to the other NH teams.

I just think there's too much going on in the England camp at the moment for the team to make a cohesive effort of winning the 6N. I mean, I hope they do, but if they don't, its France winners for me.

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Post by Cyril on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 7:56 am

They’ll be fine. The Saracens mindset (similar to Toulon in Jonny’s time there) is at a different level from most other sides and I don’t see players from other club sides having a problem with any individuals.

There’s not the same inbuilt level of distrust you see amongst the regions and provinces to start with.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 9:27 am

Cyril wrote:England very, very strong favourites according to the poll. Given that studies have shown that voting online is very much a Celtic thing it would appear that this view is spread across the nations.

My latest thoughts

England
France
Wales/Ireland
Italy/Scotland

I'll give this post a vote.

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Post by Welshmushroom on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:03 am

Khouli Khan wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:England’s hardest game should be their first, get a w here & I think we will top the championship.
I see all other teams with a 3-2 win loss ratio other than Italy.

Also no disrepect to France here but with the squad they have selected I somehow doubt this match represents England's hardest challange.  I would expect England, Wales and Ireland to turn them over regardless of home advantage.  

Would have thought Scotland at Murrayfield would be considerably harder to win than this game not to mention R3 & R4.

I also dont see them winning both of the following matches at home against Ireland and Wales.  Reckon they will come away with 1 win 1 loss from those fixtures.



 

France have a lot of new, and very, very talented players joining the team - have you seen them play? Some of them are mesmerizing. Couple that with the Sean Edwards factor and an opening fixture in Paris against an English side with at least a third of them perhaps with minds on other things. A win for them in Paris will give them big confidence and a reason 'to turn up' for the remaining fixtures.

I wouldn't bet against France to win this year. England could finish third or even fourth, but Wales will not be topping the table - I would bet on that.

Yes I have seen them play. But its club rugby. International rugby is a different level and far more physical. It's why some players who look great for their clubs fail to make the stepup internationally.

Secondly I don't see Edwards making an immediate impact in terms of their defence. Not to mention that a lot of those french backs are fairly lightweight. They will struggle to contain the large backlines that Wales, Ireland & England have at their disposal. I just don't see France being a credible threat in this 6 Nations. Maybe in a couple of years when those players have bedded in a bit they may be contenders.

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Post by Welshmushroom on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:08 am

Khouli Khan wrote:
Cyril wrote:England very, very strong favourites according to the poll. Given that studies have shown that voting online is very much a Celtic thing it would appear that this view is spread across the nations.

My latest thoughts

England
France
Wales/Ireland
Italy/Scotland

If the fiasco at Saracens hasn't damaged their England contingent's psyche too much - then I think England are by far the strongest team. Witness their WC performance, which while it fell at the last hurdle, was impressive when compared to the other NH teams.

I just think there's too much going on in the England camp at the moment for the team to make a cohesive effort of winning the 6N. I mean, I hope they do, but if they don't, its France winners for me.

Erm - I hate to point the obvious out here but Wales are last seasons Champions. Even at the World Cup in the Semi's we actually only lost to South Africa by 3 points and we were in that match the entire game. England lost against the same team by 20 points and where never in the match.

I personally don't agree that England are clear favourites based on form anyway.

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Post by Khouli Khan on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:13 am

Welshmushroom wrote:
Khouli Khan wrote:
Cyril wrote:England very, very strong favourites according to the poll. Given that studies have shown that voting online is very much a Celtic thing it would appear that this view is spread across the nations.

My latest thoughts

England
France
Wales/Ireland
Italy/Scotland

If the fiasco at Saracens hasn't damaged their England contingent's psyche too much - then I think England are by far the strongest team. Witness their WC performance, which while it fell at the last hurdle, was impressive when compared to the other NH teams.

I just think there's too much going on in the England camp at the moment for the team to make a cohesive effort of winning the 6N. I mean, I hope they do, but if they don't, its France winners for me.

Erm - I hate to point the obvious out here but Wales are last seasons Champions.  Even at the World Cup in the Semi's we actually only lost to South Africa by 3 points and we were in that match the entire game.  England lost against the same team by 20 points and where never in the match.  

I personally don't agree that England are clear favourites based on form anyway.

LOL! - so, Team A loses to Team B by 3 points (in the worst match ever witnessed at a WC) who then beat team C by 20 points. Therefore, Team A is better than Team C. Do me a favour.

Well based on form, Wales certainly aren't.


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Post by Khouli Khan on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:17 am

Welshmushroom wrote:
Khouli Khan wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:England’s hardest game should be their first, get a w here & I think we will top the championship.
I see all other teams with a 3-2 win loss ratio other than Italy.

Also no disrepect to France here but with the squad they have selected I somehow doubt this match represents England's hardest challange.  I would expect England, Wales and Ireland to turn them over regardless of home advantage.  

Would have thought Scotland at Murrayfield would be considerably harder to win than this game not to mention R3 & R4.

I also dont see them winning both of the following matches at home against Ireland and Wales.  Reckon they will come away with 1 win 1 loss from those fixtures.



 

France have a lot of new, and very, very talented players joining the team - have you seen them play? Some of them are mesmerizing. Couple that with the Sean Edwards factor and an opening fixture in Paris against an English side with at least a third of them perhaps with minds on other things. A win for them in Paris will give them big confidence and a reason 'to turn up' for the remaining fixtures.

I wouldn't bet against France to win this year. England could finish third or even fourth, but Wales will not be topping the table - I would bet on that.

Yes I have seen them play.  But its club rugby.  International rugby is a different level and far more physical.  It's why some players who look great for their clubs fail to make the stepup internationally.  

Secondly I don't see Edwards making an immediate impact in terms of their defence.  Not to mention that a lot of those french backs are fairly lightweight.  They will struggle to contain the large backlines that Wales, Ireland & England have at their disposal.  I just don't see France being a credible threat in this 6 Nations.  Maybe in a couple of years when those players have bedded in a bit they may be contenders.

He had an almost immediate effect on the Welsh defense, so why wouldn't he be able to do it with the French?

Lightweight backs? Are you joking? And, if a player isn't initially picked on club form, how do you expect them to be picked based on the international experience they don't have? I'm not suggesting that every club player makes a good international player - but they need the benefit of the doubt. I wouldn't be counting my chickens if I were Welsh, I can assure you.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:18 am

France have had the quality players year after year but structurally their system holds them back in the 6 nations. They simply don't have the control and management of players that the others do and are playing with one hand tied behind their backs in this tournament. 

England can match them for quality and have the advantage of player management and continuity in the squad and system that France dont. wales regions are pretty rubbish at club level year in year out but they have matched or beaten France in the 6 nations most years in recent times. Ireland push France on club success and again have that continuity in the squad and much better player management. 

What has changed that is suddenly going to change the script for France after a decade of under acheiving? Is chuck Norris playing for them? they arent super humans, the french clubs still lack professionalism and the national team is still treated as a sideshow outside a world cup.

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Post by Khouli Khan on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:20 am

Gooseberry wrote:France have had the quality players year after year but structurally their system holds them back in the 6 nations. They simply don't have the control and management of players that the others do and are playing with one hand tied behind their backs in this tournament. 

England can match them for quality and have the advantage of player management and continuity in the squad and system that France dont. wales regions are pretty rubbish at club level year in year out but they have matched or beaten France in the 6 nations most years in recent times. Ireland push France on club success and again have that continuity in the squad and much better player management. 

What has changed that is suddenly going to change the script for France after a decade of under acheiving? Is chuck Norris playing for them? they arent super humans, the french clubs still lack professionalism and the national team is still treated as a sideshow outside a world cup.

I'm not sure that's been true of late. They've had a lot of experienced players that didn't necessarily gel - but I for one won't be discounting them. They're going to shock a couple of teams in the weeks to come - you mark my words.


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Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:21 am

Cyril wrote:England very, very strong favourites according to the poll. Given that studies have shown that voting online is very much a Celtic thing it would appear that this view is spread across the nations.

My latest thoughts

England
France
Wales/Ireland
Italy/Scotland

????

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:23 am

Khouli Khan wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:France have had the quality players year after year but structurally their system holds them back in the 6 nations. They simply don't have the control and management of players that the others do and are playing with one hand tied behind their backs in this tournament. 

England can match them for quality and have the advantage of player management and continuity in the squad and system that France dont. wales regions are pretty rubbish at club level year in year out but they have matched or beaten France in the 6 nations most years in recent times. Ireland push France on club success and again have that continuity in the squad and much better player management. 

What has changed that is suddenly going to change the script for France after a decade of under acheiving? Is chuck Norris playing for them? they arent super humans, the french clubs still lack professionalism and the national team is still treated as a sideshow outside a world cup.

I'm not sure that's been true of late. They've had a lot of experienced players that didn't necessarily gel - but I for one won't be discounting them. They're going to shock a couple of teams in the weeks to come - you mark my words.


3/10

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Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:25 am

Welshmushroom wrote:
Khouli Khan wrote:
Cyril wrote:England very, very strong favourites according to the poll. Given that studies have shown that voting online is very much a Celtic thing it would appear that this view is spread across the nations.

My latest thoughts

England
France
Wales/Ireland
Italy/Scotland

If the fiasco at Saracens hasn't damaged their England contingent's psyche too much - then I think England are by far the strongest team. Witness their WC performance, which while it fell at the last hurdle, was impressive when compared to the other NH teams.

I just think there's too much going on in the England camp at the moment for the team to make a cohesive effort of winning the 6N. I mean, I hope they do, but if they don't, its France winners for me.

Erm - I hate to point the obvious out here but Wales are last seasons Champions.  Even at the World Cup in the Semi's we actually only lost to South Africa by 3 points and we were in that match the entire game.  England lost against the same team by 20 points and where never in the match.  

I personally don't agree that England are clear favourites based on form anyway.

You could also argue that England did beat NZ. The Ireland selection looks like it's ready to play more Schmidtball, so England and Wales have to be the favourites for winning it.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:29 am

Wales go away to england and ireland: it's hard to see a win or bonus points from there.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:34 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wales go away to england and ireland: it's hard to see a win or bonus points from there.

You saying they don't have a chance of winning? What is worrying about the Dublin fixture is we have the same French ref who shafted us one of the last times we played Ireland, it was painful to watch. That's the thing with Schmidtball though, it's heavily reliant on calls from the ref. If you manage to shut it down under a good ref then Ireland look fairly hopeless - the results back that up. If Farrell wants to progress Ireland then the squad should have been more Leinster-heavy.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:35 am

Yes I think World Rankings post WC is a good indicator.
Wales didn’t perform that well up until the semi against SA & scraped past France by a point.
England have to prove the final was a one off not the semi final.

If France click they have the players to win the championship I have no doubt but of course it’s big but.
England are rightly favourites but not ‘clear favourites’. My feeling is there won’t be much between France,Ireland & Wales ( where home advantage will count)
It should be another great competition.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:36 am

I'd say theres always a chance of winning in sport. I think it's unlikely though in the matches stated.

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Post by Welshmushroom on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:38 am

Khouli Khan wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
Khouli Khan wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:England’s hardest game should be their first, get a w here & I think we will top the championship.
I see all other teams with a 3-2 win loss ratio other than Italy.

Also no disrepect to France here but with the squad they have selected I somehow doubt this match represents England's hardest challange.  I would expect England, Wales and Ireland to turn them over regardless of home advantage.  

Would have thought Scotland at Murrayfield would be considerably harder to win than this game not to mention R3 & R4.

I also dont see them winning both of the following matches at home against Ireland and Wales.  Reckon they will come away with 1 win 1 loss from those fixtures.



 

France have a lot of new, and very, very talented players joining the team - have you seen them play? Some of them are mesmerizing. Couple that with the Sean Edwards factor and an opening fixture in Paris against an English side with at least a third of them perhaps with minds on other things. A win for them in Paris will give them big confidence and a reason 'to turn up' for the remaining fixtures.

I wouldn't bet against France to win this year. England could finish third or even fourth, but Wales will not be topping the table - I would bet on that.

Yes I have seen them play.  But its club rugby.  International rugby is a different level and far more physical.  It's why some players who look great for their clubs fail to make the stepup internationally.  

Secondly I don't see Edwards making an immediate impact in terms of their defence.  Not to mention that a lot of those french backs are fairly lightweight.  They will struggle to contain the large backlines that Wales, Ireland & England have at their disposal.  I just don't see France being a credible threat in this 6 Nations.  Maybe in a couple of years when those players have bedded in a bit they may be contenders.

He had an almost immediate effect on the Welsh defense, so why wouldn't he be able to do it with the French?

Lightweight backs? Are you joking? And, if a player isn't initially picked on club form, how do you expect them to be picked based on the international experience they don't have? I'm not suggesting that every club player makes a good international player - but they need the benefit of the doubt. I wouldn't be counting my chickens if I were Welsh, I can assure you.

Actually take it from me, Edwards defensive structures actually took some time to adapt too.  Couple in the fact that he won't have anywhere near as much access to players that he is used to with Wales.  

They are lightweight.  Look at their stats.   As far as I can tell they dont have anyone tipping the scale over 15 stone except for Heriteau at Centre. Granted they will be fast but that won't help them much when defending.  

As for the logic regarding international experience not making a difference, im not saying France shouldnt pick these players and give them experience.  But clearly tagging them as favourites (with hardly any experience of playing in the 6 nations at all) is a bit of a reach.  Once they have a couple of years experience then they probably will be contenders.  But as for this one, to assume this side will be anything other than ranked outsiders at best would be doing a diservice to Ireland, England & Wales who have always shown up well in the 6 Nations in the last 5-10 years.  I might be wrong on this but I'm afraid the bookies see it my way as well.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:38 am

France need to find consistency. For the past couple of years they've shown they can live with the best for short periods but have generally self destructed under little pressure at times. A new batch may hinder top form initially but help the mental side of things.

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Post by Khouli Khan on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:40 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Yes I think World Rankings post WC is a good indicator.
Wales didn’t perform that well up until the semi against SA & scraped past France by a point.
England have to prove the final was a one off not the semi final.

If France click they have the players to win the championship I have no doubt but of course it’s big but.
England are rightly favourites but not ‘clear favourites’. My feeling is there won’t be much between France,Ireland & Wales ( where home advantage will count)
It should be another great competition.

Where, I think its worth reminding us all, that the ball was in the air more than it was in the hands.

Worse than that, the tactics were pretty much telegraphed from both sides before the first whistle. I'm not sure it was a barometer of form for either side - and it definitely wasn't for SA.

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Post by Welshmushroom on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:42 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wales go away to england and ireland: it's hard to see a win or bonus points from there.

We have a pretty good record against Ireland away. It's at home we struggle to beat them. Yes we dont often win at Twickenham so this is probably the game we dont historically win.

I can still see us winning one of those though, which would keep us in the running.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:43 am

Khouli Khan wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:France have had the quality players year after year but structurally their system holds them back in the 6 nations. They simply don't have the control and management of players that the others do and are playing with one hand tied behind their backs in this tournament. 

England can match them for quality and have the advantage of player management and continuity in the squad and system that France dont. wales regions are pretty rubbish at club level year in year out but they have matched or beaten France in the 6 nations most years in recent times. Ireland push France on club success and again have that continuity in the squad and much better player management. 

What has changed that is suddenly going to change the script for France after a decade of under acheiving? Is chuck Norris playing for them? they arent super humans, the french clubs still lack professionalism and the national team is still treated as a sideshow outside a world cup.

I'm not sure that's been true of late. 


Which bit? 

2019 4th
2018 4th
2017 3rd
2016 5th
2015 4th
2014 4th
2013 6th
2012 4th
2011 2nd 

They havent been competitive for a decade. Nothing has changed structurally in French rugby to enhance their ability to achieve their potential in the 6 nations. Performed better at the world cups in this period than they have the 6 nations, and they were really just making up the numbers at this years. 
Sure they will probably beat one or two of the big name teams, they do most years. Whilst they do have 3 home games having Italy at home as one of them is a disadvantage when it comes to being in a position to win the tournament, thats a 5 pointer home or away for a top side.  

Again I wouldnt completely write them off but as with the Scotland dark horse narrative France get chucked out there every year as " if they turn up" and usually have one game they look brilliant but just dont have the longevity for the tournament and tend to get hit by injuries with players going back to clubs. 

Unless Ive missed something fundamental thats now giving them full player control and release whats different about this year? Previous world cups were followed by 4th and 5th place finishes. France are in an even bigger state of flux than Ireland or Wales. 20 uncapped players, many of them have barely even met each other before let alone able to form a cohesive instinctive side from the off. 

Its not an easy away trip for England to start on, but their 23 will be largely the one that ended the world cup and who are very well drilled and comfortable in their rugby and partnerships. France are at a point where they are barely more than a scratch team chucked together like the barbarians. In some ways its better to get them first up when they are still raw and confused. they also have a very big initial squad, which has some advantages but makes it even harder to extract maximum benefit from their short preparation time.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:44 am

Ironically it's the continuity of farrell over the likely new style of wales where I see the deciding factor. So many variables though.

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Post by Khouli Khan on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:49 am

Gooseberry wrote:
Khouli Khan wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:France have had the quality players year after year but structurally their system holds them back in the 6 nations. They simply don't have the control and management of players that the others do and are playing with one hand tied behind their backs in this tournament. 

England can match them for quality and have the advantage of player management and continuity in the squad and system that France dont. wales regions are pretty rubbish at club level year in year out but they have matched or beaten France in the 6 nations most years in recent times. Ireland push France on club success and again have that continuity in the squad and much better player management. 

What has changed that is suddenly going to change the script for France after a decade of under acheiving? Is chuck Norris playing for them? they arent super humans, the french clubs still lack professionalism and the national team is still treated as a sideshow outside a world cup.

I'm not sure that's been true of late. 


Which bit? 

2019 4th
2018 4th
2017 3rd
2016 5th
2015 4th
2014 4th
2013 6th
2012 4th
2011 2nd 

They havent been competitive for a decade. Nothing has changed structurally in French rugby to enhance their ability to achieve their potential in the 6 nations. Performed better at the world cups in this period than they have the 6 nations, and they were really just making up the numbers at this years. 
Sure they will probably beat one or two of the big name teams, they do most years. Whilst they do have 3 home games having Italy at home as one of them is a disadvantage when it comes to being in a position to win the tournament, thats a 5 pointer home or away for a top side.  

Again I wouldnt completely write them off but as with the Scotland dark horse narrative France get chucked out there every year as " if they turn up" and usually have one game they look brilliant but just dont have the longevity for the tournament and tend to get hit by injuries with players going back to clubs. 

Unless Ive missed something fundamental thats now giving them full player control and release whats different about this year? Previous world cups were followed by 4th and 5th place finishes. France are in an even bigger state of flux than Ireland or Wales. 20 uncapped players, many of them have barely even met each other before let alone able to form a cohesive instinctive side from the off. 

Its not an easy away trip for England to start on, but their 23 will be largely the one that ended the world cup and who are very well drilled and comfortable in their rugby and partnerships. France are at a point where they are barely more than a scratch team chucked together like the barbarians. In some ways its better to get them first up when they are still raw and confused. they also have a very big initial squad, which has some advantages but makes it even harder to extract maximum benefit from their short preparation time.

Fine, none of that is wrong - but, teams don't stay in the doldrums forever - and it might be intangible but France can do very well at this tournament if they want to. At some point, their worm is going to turn. Could be this year.

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Post by RiscaGame on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:50 am

Of course it's a new French squad, so they might have a new mindset but in recent times you can't say the French are the most coachable of players. The Welsh do as they're told, so obviously Edwards wouldn't have had an issue coaching there. He might have an issue coaching the French. If he doesn't, they will definitely be dangerous.

I would still be disappointed not to beat them at home mind, even if I have said they're second favourites on another thread.


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Post by Welshmushroom on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:52 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ironically it's the continuity of farrell over the likely new style of wales where I see the deciding factor. So many variables though.

I actually think Wales with more of an attacking game makes them even more dangerous.

No 7&1/2, you must be confident of an England championship given the fixture list. Surely this would be a year England are favourites? Reckon the big one for England will be Scotland in Murrayfield especially if it's freezing up there!

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:54 am

I do think we'll pick up a grand slam. Was a bit worried on the impact of the saracens thing but they looked strong at the weekend and liking the look of the squad overall. It's the better year for fixtures for England.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:56 am

France have some good players that's for sure, so it is hard to understand how they underperform so often here. Looking at the Wales team I think the players are as good, if not better. The Wenglish and England based players look like they could turn out to be really good. It's the first time in a while where there isn't really a weak link (Turnbull, Aled Davies), and we still have guys like Francis, Jenkins, JD2, Halaholo, Patchell, Anscombe and Williams to slot back in.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 11:57 am

Tomkins is going to be amazing for you mikey. Hes class. I'm annoyed

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Post by EWT Spoons on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 12:05 pm

Khouli Khan wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
Khouli Khan wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:France have had the quality players year after year but structurally their system holds them back in the 6 nations. They simply don't have the control and management of players that the others do and are playing with one hand tied behind their backs in this tournament. 

England can match them for quality and have the advantage of player management and continuity in the squad and system that France dont. wales regions are pretty rubbish at club level year in year out but they have matched or beaten France in the 6 nations most years in recent times. Ireland push France on club success and again have that continuity in the squad and much better player management. 

What has changed that is suddenly going to change the script for France after a decade of under acheiving? Is chuck Norris playing for them? they arent super humans, the french clubs still lack professionalism and the national team is still treated as a sideshow outside a world cup.

I'm not sure that's been true of late. 


Which bit? 

2019 4th
2018 4th
2017 3rd
2016 5th
2015 4th
2014 4th
2013 6th
2012 4th
2011 2nd 

They havent been competitive for a decade. Nothing has changed structurally in French rugby to enhance their ability to achieve their potential in the 6 nations. Performed better at the world cups in this period than they have the 6 nations, and they were really just making up the numbers at this years. 
Sure they will probably beat one or two of the big name teams, they do most years. Whilst they do have 3 home games having Italy at home as one of them is a disadvantage when it comes to being in a position to win the tournament, thats a 5 pointer home or away for a top side.  

Again I wouldnt completely write them off but as with the Scotland dark horse narrative France get chucked out there every year as " if they turn up" and usually have one game they look brilliant but just dont have the longevity for the tournament and tend to get hit by injuries with players going back to clubs. 

Unless Ive missed something fundamental thats now giving them full player control and release whats different about this year? Previous world cups were followed by 4th and 5th place finishes. France are in an even bigger state of flux than Ireland or Wales. 20 uncapped players, many of them have barely even met each other before let alone able to form a cohesive instinctive side from the off. 

Its not an easy away trip for England to start on, but their 23 will be largely the one that ended the world cup and who are very well drilled and comfortable in their rugby and partnerships. France are at a point where they are barely more than a scratch team chucked together like the barbarians. In some ways its better to get them first up when they are still raw and confused. they also have a very big initial squad, which has some advantages but makes it even harder to extract maximum benefit from their short preparation time.

Fine, none of that is wrong - but, teams don't stay in the doldrums forever - and it might be intangible but France can do very well at this tournament if they want to. At some point, their worm is going to turn. Could be this year.

*Scotland waves* don't be so sure on that, i know it's not forever but we've been toss for the last couple of decades

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Post by bsando on Wed 22 Jan 2020, 4:54 pm

France two years ago had Beauxis at 10!? They’ve had very little continuity the past decade until recently with the rise of Ntamack and Dupont to accompany Vakatawa, Thomas, Pernaud and Ramos in that backline. I think England at home for France will be a very close game.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Sun 26 Jan 2020, 8:58 am

Sir Geech’s prediction
England
France
Ireland
Wales
Italy

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Post by maestegmafia on Sun 26 Jan 2020, 9:29 am

Predictions for 2008

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/7206322.stm

For 2012

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/16824077

For 2016

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/sixnations/12078260/Six-Nations-2016-Sir-Ian-McGeechans-predictions.html

England, France or Ireland predicted to win each one.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Sun 26 Jan 2020, 9:36 am

I believe he predicted Wales to win last year so let us not be selective.

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Post by Gooseberry on Sun 26 Jan 2020, 11:31 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Sir Geech’s prediction
England
France
Ireland
Wales
Italy

Scotland might finish bottom but they are turning up in a literal sense at least surely?

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Post by Pot Hale on Sun 26 Jan 2020, 1:27 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Wales go away to england and ireland: it's hard to see a win or bonus points from there.

You saying they don't have a chance of winning? What is worrying about the Dublin fixture is we have the same French ref who shafted us one of the last times we played Ireland, it was painful to watch. That's the thing with Schmidtball though, it's heavily reliant on calls from the ref. If you manage to shut it down under a good ref then Ireland look fairly hopeless - the results back that up. If Farrell wants to progress Ireland then the squad should have been more Leinster-heavy.

How many Leinster players are in the 6N squad? 8 And who else should be in there to make it more heavy?
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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 26 Jan 2020, 2:37 pm

Cronin and Ruddock.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 9:22 am

Cyril wrote:Yep. Should win the 6Ns. Disappointed if we don’t get the slam to be honest.

Should really be RWC holders too, but you can’t afford a really poor game, especially if your opponents play a blinder. England won’t face that kind of power in Europe though.

Cyril, do you think its possible you are over rating England a bit? The slam is definitely off the table, do you still think they will win the championship?

I mean England are very strong but they always have ups and downs.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 9:26 am

Everyone has ups and downs of course especially in the 6ns as it's not a tournament set up to find definitively who is best. The way the remaining fixtures fall though youd have to fancy england to sweep them.

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Post by maestegmafia on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 9:31 am

In 2013 wales got pasted in the first half came back in the second but lost at home. Then went on to win the championship

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Post by Pete330v2 on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 9:53 am

"Yep. Should win the 6N. Disappointed if we don’t get the slam to be honest.

Should really be RWC holders too"

I agree with point number one, obviously point number 2 has been blown out of the water by the French but point number 3 definitely cheered up my morning. That one's hilariously deluded to say the least. Should be RWC holders laughing laughing laughing

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Post by Khouli Khan on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 10:15 am

Gooseberry wrote:
Khouli Khan wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:France have had the quality players year after year but structurally their system holds them back in the 6 nations. They simply don't have the control and management of players that the others do and are playing with one hand tied behind their backs in this tournament. 

England can match them for quality and have the advantage of player management and continuity in the squad and system that France dont. wales regions are pretty rubbish at club level year in year out but they have matched or beaten France in the 6 nations most years in recent times. Ireland push France on club success and again have that continuity in the squad and much better player management. 

What has changed that is suddenly going to change the script for France after a decade of under acheiving? Is chuck Norris playing for them? they arent super humans, the french clubs still lack professionalism and the national team is still treated as a sideshow outside a world cup.

I'm not sure that's been true of late. They've had a lot of experienced players that didn't necessarily gel - but I for one won't be discounting them. They're going to shock a couple of teams in the weeks to come - you mark my words.


3/10

You were saying?

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Post by Cyril on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 11:31 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Cyril wrote:Yep. Should win the 6Ns. Disappointed if we don’t get the slam to be honest.

Should really be RWC holders too, but you can’t afford a really poor game, especially if your opponents play a blinder. England won’t face that kind of power in Europe though.

Cyril, do you think its possible you are over rating England a bit? The slam is definitely off the table, do you still think they will win the championship?

I mean England are very strong but they always have ups and downs.
Not at all. It’s a blip. France played well enough, but England played terrible in most facets of that game and still nearly came back, even playing so badly. Scotland will suffer for that upset.

England to get wins in all the remaining games. France to lose against Wales and Scotland.

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