England's Summer

First topic message reminder :

With our Six Nations Campaign over (for now) with us currently top of the table https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/table/ (Award the Tropy now ), it is time to look ahead to what the next few months will bring.

The key debating points are:

-> Who will tour in the Summer to Japan
-> What will be the outcome of Eddie's meeting with Bill Sweeney (RFU CEO)


Fixtures

Noting that much depends on whether Japan is allowing sporting matches in July. With the Premiership final on the 20th June, the weekend of the 27/28th could be available to fulfill the Italy fixture - with that team then having the summer off as planned and the younger lads going to Japan.

Italy (a) TBC
Barbarians (h) 21st June
Japan (a) 4th July
Japan (a) 11th July


Squads

will be updated when we know something, but for now we can discuss who will likely travel.



Eddie's Future

Eddie is currently contracted until the summer of 2021 and is scheduled to meet the boss to discuss his future. Should it be decided he is not staying beyond then is there any point in him staying on? Perhaps bring in the replacement to work with him for a year? That may cause a conflict - but then I have no idea who would replace Eddie other than perhaps John Mitchell.

Olympics postponed for a year, so we can now say that the summer tour to Japan will not happen.

Will there be any more rugby played at all this year due to this virus?
With the country more or less in lock down. not looking good for any sport never mind rugby union.

Ignoring the fact that this covid issue is a touch bigger than sport england could suffer medium term in relation to development from this. With jones likely stepping aside I think he'd have liked to have sorted out a few positions for his successor but losing a developmental tour to japan will he just stick with the tried and tested. The lions tour will offer a few chances anyway but maybe 12 months too late.

I think everyone's timelines will be impacted.
EJ may well decided to/or be asked to stay on a bit longer.
Same for any other unions plans really.

I honestly think (and thought prior to the 6 Nations) that Jones will extend to the next World Cup. He had one clear aim when took over which was the World Cup and given this side is young enough to keep improving I think he will fancy a second bite.

As for trying new players I sit in a similar camp to LT where I don't think that much new blood is needed.

1. A potential replacement for Kruis. I'd love for Kpoku to be back early.

2. Scrum-half depth. I really like Randall but the Maunder boys and Alex Mitchell are very talented. Ben White could fit the Jones game plan if given time.

3. Fullback. If two out of Watson, May and Nowell are fit then they form a good unit with Daly but I'd like another option developed.

4. Centre depth. Marchant and Lawrence look like natural successors to JJ but need bringing into international rugby. If Manu gets injured then the game plan in the backs will need to shift.

5. Tight head depth. I'm happy with Stuart and Williams backing up Sinckler but the former in particular needs game time.

I wonder whether the enforced layoff of England players due to the current climate may turn into a (very small) positive. Some guys like Farrell and Itoje have been playing rugby with little time off for about 18 months/ two years. Maybe this will be a chance for them to recharge their batteries a little?

Its a great time for them to recharge the batteries Cumbrian.

They will hardly play any games in the champinoship...maybe the odd run out to get some practice in....

And the other like Ealr continue to improve with Bristol.

Imagine learning from Pat lam!! What an experience for Earl. He could be amazing.

king_carlos wrote:I honestly think (and thought prior to the 6 Nations) that Jones will extend to the next World Cup. He had one clear aim when took over which was the World Cup and given this side is young enough to keep improving I think he will fancy a second bite.

As for trying new players I sit in a similar camp to LT where I don't think that much new blood is needed.

1. A potential replacement for Kruis. I'd love for Kpoku to be back early.

2. Scrum-half depth. I really like Randall but the Maunder boys and Alex Mitchell are very talented. Ben White could fit the Jones game plan if given time.

3. Fullback. If two out of Watson, May and Nowell are fit then they form a good unit with Daly but I'd like another option developed.

4. Centre depth. Marchant and Lawrence look like natural successors to JJ but need bringing into international rugby. If Manu gets injured then the game plan in the backs will need to shift.

5. Tight head depth. I'm happy with Stuart and Williams backing up Sinckler but the former in particular needs game time.

Well yes, if Kruis is Englands powerhouse and the best scrummaging lock, then he definately needs replaced sooner rather than later (if he is gonig to be unavailable to England)

Kpoku is seemingly the lad to do just that, but we shall see.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

king_carlos wrote:I honestly think (and thought prior to the 6 Nations) that Jones will extend to the next World Cup. He had one clear aim when took over which was the World Cup and given this side is young enough to keep improving I think he will fancy a second bite.

As for trying new players I sit in a similar camp to LT where I don't think that much new blood is needed.

1. A potential replacement for Kruis. I'd love for Kpoku to be back early.

2. Scrum-half depth. I really like Randall but the Maunder boys and Alex Mitchell are very talented. Ben White could fit the Jones game plan if given time.

3. Fullback. If two out of Watson, May and Nowell are fit then they form a good unit with Daly but I'd like another option developed.

4. Centre depth. Marchant and Lawrence look like natural successors to JJ but need bringing into international rugby. If Manu gets injured then the game plan in the backs will need to shift.

5. Tight head depth. I'm happy with Stuart and Williams backing up Sinckler but the former in particular needs game time.

Well yes, if Kruis is Englands powerhouse and the best scrummaging lock, then he definately needs replaced sooner rather than later (if he is gonig to be unavailable to England)

Kpoku is seemingly the lad to do just that, but we shall see.

Is Kpoku a lineout leader though? England's lineout has never looked quite the weapon without Kruis. I'd like to see Johnny Hill from Exeter given a go. He's very good in the loose, excellent in the lineout and the Chiefs pack doesn't really take a step back. Give Kpoku some more developing time.

king_carlos wrote:I honestly think (and thought prior to the 6 Nations) that Jones will extend to the next World Cup. He had one clear aim when took over which was the World Cup and given this side is young enough to keep improving I think he will fancy a second bite.

As for trying new players I sit in a similar camp to LT where I don't think that much new blood is needed.

1. A potential replacement for Kruis. I'd love for Kpoku to be back early.

2. Scrum-half depth. I really like Randall but the Maunder boys and Alex Mitchell are very talented. Ben White could fit the Jones game plan if given time.

3. Fullback. If two out of Watson, May and Nowell are fit then they form a good unit with Daly but I'd like another option developed.

4. Centre depth. Marchant and Lawrence look like natural successors to JJ but need bringing into international rugby. If Manu gets injured then the game plan in the backs will need to shift.

5. Tight head depth. I'm happy with Stuart and Williams backing up Sinckler but the former in particular needs game time.

Painter should be somewhere close next season, same size or bigger than Williams, still learning, but nobody I have seen has taken him apart, he is also very mobile for 20 stone plus.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Is Kpoku a lineout leader though? England's lineout has never looked quite the weapon without Kruis. I'd like to see Johnny Hill from Exeter given a go. He's very good in the loose, excellent in the lineout and the Chiefs pack doesn't really take a step back. Give Kpoku some more developing time.

Yep he is. I think a lot of fans presume doesn't lead the lineout due to his 20 stone frame but he's an athletic jumper and will call the lineout for them.

Isiekwe can also call the lineout very well but when both played during the 6 Nations I noticed that Kpoku seemed to be calling which interested me. A part of me thought perhaps that trust in the young man adds credence to the rumours he's staying with Sarries longer term rather than going to Saints.

Kpoku's defence needs to become more consistent as he can float in and out of the game without the ball. His set-piece is strong and his carrying is very impressive though. I honestly think he'd show up just as well as Ewels, Moon or Hill in a strong England pack, he also has more room for improvement. I tend to ere on giving youngsters a go though.

I do like Jonny Hill as a lock though. He's very good in the maul during attack and defence which is such an important part of the game now.

England's mauling game tends to be better with Kruis but I actually think Lawes is just as good in the air. I found it interesting during the 6 Nations that Lawes and Itoje took more ball in the middle or front of the lineout. It seemed Kruis was being used a lot as a lifter or dummy, then jumping for high pressure throws to the tail or in the 22.

For the lineout that led to Watson's try against Wales Kruis and Lawes were at the front of the lineout being man marked by AWJ and Ball. That meant Itoje jumped unopposed at the tail with Marler and Sinckler lifting in a very strong pod for setting the dummy maul.

Perhaps Proudfoot at work there. The Bok lineout is very good at using their numerous strong jumpers as dummies to buy that extra split second for setting their impressive mauls up.

Jones looks to be signing a contract up to the world cup.

Why are so many good Exeter players over looked?

Is it that Jones views them as a brilliant team but not as strong individually as other teams...?

I dont see any horrendous exclusions tbh. Armand had his fan base but personally was never a huge fan. Devoto but I'm a bit unsold about him as well. Decent player but doesnt strike me as an international certainty. Hill and simmonds have some great players they're up against, I suspect hill in particular will have growing calls to be included as people don't like ewells. Williams? Looked a bit underwhelming. Other simmonds up against ford and farrell who are coming into their prime but will probably be going up against smith.

Chiefs seem to be a side that is greater than the sum of it's parts, they have a lot of very good players but not that many exceptional ones, the thing that makes them successful is the way they play, it is a very simple straight forward way based on their forward attritional game and that they make very few mistakes. they only seem to cut loose when they are either desperate or the game is won. It is a pity, as most of their really good players are backs.

Jones has signed a new deal to take him through to 2023.

Probably very smart financially to take the cash whilst it's on the table before the RFU pulled their offer.

England have been very good under EJ so probably not too difficult a decision, although Saracens being very dominant has made it a bit easier for him. I wonder if the focus will shift to Exeter players now that Sarries are down? Wonder if he ever becomes less of a sh*t-chatter?

Works for him and some notable sports managers elsewhere eg alex ferguson seemingly distracting media onto himself rather than players he would rather not have focuaes on: so doubt it. Re exeter mikey see above. Which players are missing out?

mikey_dragon wrote:England have been very good under EJ so probably not too difficult a decision, although Saracens being very dominant has made it a bit easier for him. I wonder if the focus will shift to Exeter players now that Sarries are down? Wonder if he ever becomes less of a sh*t-chatter?

The difficulty is how much its cost them. The RFU was already trying to make up for some awful financial mismanagement that had seen them somehow manage to run up huge debts despite the huge trough of cash they feast from. Jones has taken an offer made prior the entire sporting economy pooing the bed, its a lot more than someone like Pivac will be earning. The RFU is massively overextended and the clubs in financial meltdown with players and staff not being paid and cant expect bailouts form the RFU.

I guess its a drop in the ocean to the total amounts lost from the seasons meltdown and effects into next year but Jones is very lucky to not be burnt by the belt tightening of budgets thats going to happen for the next few years, and a cost the money men would rather do without.

In terms of his behavior the RFU statements hedged a bit on that, accepting he crossed the line at times but also that its just Jones being Jones. Gatland was an absolute troll and walked away a legend so it is what it is I guess, and with Chuck Norris being too busy defeating a global pandemic there was no realistic choice but to extend Jones' contract. Just would've been nice for the RFUs finances if they could've done it in 3 months time when there are no big money contracts on offer anywhere for anyone and its very much a buyers market.

Yeah 7, it appears people like Gatland were never allowed to do it. It only became okay as soon as EJ put pen to paper with England Rugby. If the 16 vs 14 jibe, his lowest to date was made by any other coach I think there would have been greater consequences. And I've no doubt he is expensive, 700K per year?

What I was getting at is Sarries players are now spread out and some possibly playing in the championship. Jones might put faith in the Exeter front 5 for England and they become the new spine. Just a thought, but I don't really see George and Itoje being moved aside for anyone anyway.

mikey_dragon wrote:

What I was getting at is Sarries players are now spread out and some possibly playing in the championship. Jones might put faith in the Exeter front 5 for England and they become the new spine. Just a thought, but I don't really see George and Itoje being moved aside for anyone anyway.

The Sarries players may be spread out but the England side is pretty settled. There's a core of about 25-30 players that have been around the side for a while. Currently the only Sarries player unavailable is likely to be Kruis as he looks to be going to Japan. Lock is a position of strength.

A season in the Championship could actually help some of the Sarries players. The Vunipola brothers in particular could do with a lighter load to recover bodies that have taken quite a beating. If Falcons can win every game in a season then Sarries will walk the league without trying. A doubt we'll see any of the big names play away from home with the squad and youth players being developed in the away games, which is pretty much what they did this season post points deduction.

Yeah gatland was never a wum at all.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

What I was getting at is Sarries players are now spread out and some possibly playing in the championship. Jones might put faith in the Exeter front 5 for England and they become the new spine. Just a thought, but I don't really see George and Itoje being moved aside for anyone anyway.

The Sarries players may be spread out but the England side is pretty settled. There's a core of about 25-30 players that have been around the side for a while. Currently the only Sarries player unavailable is likely to be Kruis as he looks to be going to Japan. Lock is a position of strength.

A season in the Championship could actually help some of the Sarries players. The Vunipola brothers in particular could do with a lighter load to recover bodies that have taken quite a beating. If Falcons can win every game in a season then Sarries will walk the league without trying. A doubt we'll see any of the big names play away from home with the squad and youth players being developed in the away games, which is pretty much what they did this season post points deduction.

I mentioned previously...its a great time for the Saracens England players to completely recharge the batteries. Play the home games, or be managed selectively etc to keep some match practice...and continue to develop more kids.

Sounds a bit like the Pro 14 - you play for your 'club' side as and when to stay fit, but you are peaking solely for Internationals.

pretty much exactly like the Pro 14

Anyone for naming their uncapped England XV from current players?

1.Ross Harrison
2.Tom Dunn
3.Ehren Painter
4.Jonny Hill
5.Joel Kpoku
6.Jack Willis
7.Ben Curry
8.Alex Dombrandt

9.Harry Randall
10.Marcus Smith

11.Ollie Thorley
12.Fraser Dingwall
13.Ollie Lawrence
14.Gabriel Ibitoye
15.Harry Mallinder

Ibitoye just beating out Ollie Hassell-Collin and Nathan Earle. Hopefully Earle can kick on again when he returns from injury.

Quins will have some lethal outside backs with Marchant, Ibitoye, Earle and Ashton.

England 2023 World Cup squad '60% different' says head coach Eddie Jones - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/52184996

Not really news but more further indications that there will be a shake up at some point. Probably the ais now.

king_carlos wrote:Anyone for naming their uncapped England XV from current players?

1.Ross Harrison
2.Tom Dunn
3.Ehren Painter
4.Jonny Hill
5.Joel Kpoku
6.Jack Willis
7.Ben Curry
8.Alex Dombrandt

9.Harry Randall
10.Marcus Smith

11.Ollie Thorley
12.Fraser Dingwall
13.Ollie Lawrence
14.Gabriel Ibitoye
15.Harry Mallinder

Ibitoye just beating out Ollie Hassell-Collin and Nathan Earle. Hopefully Earle can kick on again when he returns from injury.

Quins will have some lethal outside backs with Marchant, Ibitoye, Earle and Ashton.

I have never seen Dingwall play 12 for Saints, he is a bit small only 13.5 stone, I would put Mallinder in at 12 and Hodge at 15. I am not sure if I would go for Smith or Simmons at 10, both have a lot of qualities

king_carlos wrote:Anyone for naming their uncapped England XV from current players?

1.Ross Harrison
2.Tom Dunn
3.Ehren Painter
4.Jonny Hill
5.Joel Kpoku
6.Jack Willis
7.Ben Curry
8.Alex Dombrandt

9.Harry Randall
10.Marcus Smith

11.Ollie Thorley
12.Fraser Dingwall
13.Ollie Lawrence
14.Gabriel Ibitoye
15.Harry Mallinder

Ibitoye just beating out Ollie Hassell-Collin and Nathan Earle. Hopefully Earle can kick on again when he returns from injury.

Quins will have some lethal outside backs with Marchant, Ibitoye, Earle and Ashton.

It is difficult to argue with certain units within your team.  The back-row is identical to what I might pick, all three are outstanding young talents, and in another era might stand a chance of being first choice already.  

Fly half on the other hand has so many players that, to my mind, are at about the same level.  I think a case could be made for any one of Joe Simmonds, Marcus Smith, Jacob Umanga, James Grayson or Manu Vunipola.  I went for Joe Simmonds because he seems to be the most rounded of them.  I cannot remember a time when there were so many options coming through at 10 at the same time though.

The centres seem to be the age old problem for England.  There are plenty of potential outside centres already in the team and waiting to come into it; Sam James, Ollie Lawrence, Joe Marchant (I’m aware he has been capped) whilst 12 is relatively bare.  I would personally would have liked to see Mallinder settle at inside centre, but seems unlikely now.

Second row I might argue with.  Perhaps it is irrational, but I don’t see it with Jonny Hill.  I see him as a very good premiership player but maybe not having that extra percentage to be a standout international lock.  At 25/26 I personally wouldn’t necessarily give him the same slack/ wiggle room as somebody like Joel Kpoku.   I say this in light of the strength and depth England has in the second-row, in a different position I would probably be more open to suggestion.

Full back, Harry Mallinder also seems like the obvious choice for now, but we aren’t exactly bursting with options.  I hope that Max Malins will do well for Bristol next year (at full back!), because I actually feel he is a more composed/ talented player than Mallinder.  

01. Beno Obano (Bath)
02. Will Capon (Bristol)
03. Ehren Painter (Northampton)
04. Joel Kpoku (Saracens)
05. David Ribbands (Northampton)
06. Jack Willis (Wasps)
07. Ben Curry (Sale)
08. Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins),

09. Alex Mitchell (Northampton)
10. Joe Simmonds (Exeter)

11. Ollie Woodburn (Exeter)
12. Cameron Redpath (Sale)
13. Sam James (Sale)
14. Ollie Thorley (Gloucester)
15. Max Malins (Saracens)

12 - Dont forget Johnny Williams...fully recovered and played very well.

Wing - Adam Radwan - Yes he's that good - see Cristian Wade, with a strong defence.

Full Back - Josh Hodge probably an Exeter player come the summer...he's the type who will get crowds on their feet. He'll learn alot of Stuart Hogg...

I did think about our lads, but though that they are probably too far away (being in the Championship) for the moment.

I think Hodge (good Cumbrian lad), might not quite have the physical maturity for senior international rugby yet, but this time next year things could/ should be very different.

Hodge probably needs a year...but Exeter will be great for him.

Radwan is ready i think. He's physically very strong and powerful despite his slight frame...and he's just rapid...and adventurous.

He's a player than can produce something from nothing.

Think we've name checked all these guys perhaps except van poortvliet who I've never seen. Strong focus on scrum half.

England: Who might Eddie Jones pick for the 2023 World Cup? - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/52204109

Ollie Thorley was apparently running the 100m in 10.6 seconds when he was 16 and still at school, May is currently 10.71 seconds and I did see a report that Ollie Sleightholme at Saints is as fast as May.

That is some blistering pace for EJ to work with

After looking at the Leicester thread (ongoing discussion about youth players), I wonder if more clubs are going to be forced to use their developmental player in the coming seasons.  Rugby finances re taking a right hammering and you have to wonder how clubs will fill out their squads.

You never know, there could be a boom in very talented young players across the game over the next five years because of it, which could transfer to the national team.  I'm trying to stay positive in the gloom.

Ted Hill keeps coming through for his sheer physicality. I know he has been compared to a very young Duane Vermulen. He could be a beast of a 6 for England.
What kept him out of the England team though...is it his workrate? Curry and Underhill have shown the requirments there!

I see Borthwick has been confirmed to Leicester...has he been repalced yet?

Proudfoot has come in for some crossover.

Ok Covid has dashed plans...so let go hypothetically that the AI's go ahead.

Kruis is gone for a season or two...will this lead to a change in the locks stable...

Surely Ewells has to be dropped.
Lawes and Itoje will be there
Has Launchburys ship sailed now?

Will Joel Kpoku be involved despite playing championship rugby?

Any others in the frame?

Trouble with Ewels is that Eddie keeps using him. He's not a bad player, he just doesn't seem to excel in any given area. He probably appears better than he actually is by playing with better players.

Does Eddie have another look at Isiekwe? I think he should as he's a cracking player. Is Launchbury actually on the slide? (I'd have him in over Ewels any day). Jonny Hill of Exeter must warrant another look? Is it too early for Kpoku? He is an absolute unit. I didn't realise he was so hefty!

Interestingly the BBC said this about current Saracens players going abroad: "The Rugby Football Union does not select English players based overseas other than in "exceptional circumstances" but earlier this year said it would not rule out England selection for Saracens players who move abroad."

One who seems off the radar and who is English qualified (grandparent) and has stated that he would like to play for England is David Ribbans. Only 24 he he has looked every bit international quality when he has played. Excellent line out, defense and ball carrying and at 6'7" and 18.5 stone is the right size.

I just cant see Jones moving past launchbury and ewells given that kruis has gone. Not sure the next lot are better than them (as yet in kpokwu's case). I think surely there'll be tweaks to tight head cover blindside and possibly number 8 as well which means a lot of inductions to the pack at 1 time.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:One who seems off the radar and who is English qualified (grandparent) and has stated that he would like to play for England is David Ribbans. Only 24 he he has looked every bit international quality when he has played. Excellent line out, defense and ball carrying and at 6'7" and 18.5 stone is the right size.

Personally id rather stay away from the grandparent ruling when we have quality players comng through.

GF, I would agree with you and I would like to see the rules changed, but until they are we have to play the same game as everywhere else.

He was being touted as good enough for the Boks squad a while back, He was injured most of the season we have had and was only just coming back to full fitness when we stopped. Still only 24, and been here a while now, so not a player coming over here solely to get international caps.
He was picked up by Western Province after he finished High School and also played some for Stormers at age grade level, despite some good showings, was not that successful and came over here in June 2016, which by my reckoning made him 20 when he came to England so not much older than Hartley.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:One who seems off the radar and who is English qualified (grandparent) and has stated that he would like to play for England is David Ribbans. Only 24 he he has looked every bit international quality when he has played. Excellent line out, defense and ball carrying and at 6'7" and 18.5 stone is the right size.

Personally id rather stay away from the grandparent ruling when we have quality players comng through.

Isn't there a slight dip between our mainly 30 something current options and then the next generation e.g. Isiekwe and Kpoku who are in their early 20s. Ribbans could well come in during the next world cup cycle. Very underrated player, I'd take him over Ewels.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:GF, I would agree with you and I would like to see the rules changed, but until they are we have to play the same game as everywhere else.

He was being touted as good enough for the Boks squad a while back, He was injured most of the season we have had and was only just coming back to full fitness when we stopped. Still only 24, and been here a while now, so not a player coming over here solely to get international caps.
He was picked up by Western Province after he finished High School and also played some for Stormers at age grade level, despite some good showings, was not that successful and came over here in June 2016, which by my reckoning made him 20 when he came to England so not much older than Hartley.

Thought Hartley was 16 when he came to the UK

I notice Isiekwe has signed a loan deal with Saints. Maybe he will get some more game time at lock rather than 6.

Boyd is looking at him as an alternative back row with Lawes from what I have read. Saints light on backroom, heavy on locks.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Boyd is looking at him as an alternative back row with Lawes from what I have read. Saints light on backroom, heavy on locks.

Yeah looking at that signing I was thinking;

4. Ribbans
5. Lawes 
6. Isiekwe
7. Ludlam
8. Harrison

That's a pretty damn good back five of the pack and all EQ.

Probably the wrong place to continue with this but:

Plus an England international (Moon) or Fijian international (Ratuniyarawa) on the bench. Not a bad place to be. Both of your starting locks have played in the back row as well, which gives Boyd the option of benching two locks without weakening his backs options as he knows any of his locks can move back if the scrum is being over powered and more umpfff is required.

He also has Wood and Gibson to call on if necessary as well.

Oh, all of the probable starting front row are also English.

Saints have signed someone now, assuming he’s an open side - Shaun Adendorff.