Test XI of this century so far

1st XI:

Hayden
G. Smith
Lara
Tendulkar
S.Smith
Sangakkara (WK)
Kallis
Warne
Anderson
McGrath
Muralitharan

2nd XI:

Cook
Sehwag
Dravid
Ponting
de Villiers
Kohli
Gilchrist (WK)
Kumble
Philander
Steyn
Boult


https://stats.espncricinfo.com/wi/content/records/223646.html

Not sure opening with two middle order batsmen would work, Tendulkar for instance didn't open once in tests and predominantly batted at four where I feel with a fairly turgid top three you need a real stroke player like Lara. Kallis picks himself and as a pure batsmen Sangakkara has to slot in, his record when keeping wicket was ok but Gilchrist is the clear option there. I can't include Murali so Warne is the sole spinner while the seam attack of McGrath, Anderson and Steyn is an easy pick.

Cook
Smith
Dravid
Lara
Sangakkara
Kallis
Gilchrist
Warne
Steyn
Anderson
McGrath

Soul Requiem wrote:Not sure opening with two middle order batsmen would work, Tendulkar for instance didn't open once in tests and predominantly batted at four where I feel with a fairly turgid top three you need a real stroke player like Lara. Kallis picks himself and as a pure batsmen Sangakkara has to slot in, his record when keeping wicket was ok but Gilchrist is the clear option there. I can't include Murali so Warne is the sole spinner while the seam attack of McGrath, Anderson and Steyn is an easy pick.

Cook
Smith
Dravid
Lara
Sangakkara
Kallis
Gilchrist
Warne
Steyn
Anderson
McGrath

Team looks good but where is Sachin?

I put him as an opener, despite the fact he predominantly played as number 4 in tests, he said in media interviews that his favoured position was opening the innings, and he did a good job opening in ODIs.

And why did you say you can't include Murali? Apart from him your 4 bowlers I agree with, Steyn vs Anderson was a tough one for me.

Smith and Cook were the best test openers this century so you can't pick a player who didn't open the batting over either of them.

Middle order wise Lara and Sanga on top form were far superior batsmen and as for Murali I prefer a bowling line up that bowls legally.

Soul Requiem wrote:Smith and Cook were the best test openers this century so you can't pick a player who didn't open the batting over either of them.

Middle order wise Lara and Sanga on top form were far superior batsmen and as for Murali I prefer a bowling line up that bowls legally.

Tendulkar and Dravid are more talented and better technically than Smith and Cook, so they would be better in any position in the batting line up, including against the new ball. I mean given how often India lost an opener early in overseas test matches, Dravid would basically come in against the new ball anyway.
Murali's bowling action was scrutinised and found to be legal.

It Must Be Love wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Smith and Cook were the best test openers this century so you can't pick a player who didn't open the batting over either of them.

Middle order wise Lara and Sanga on top form were far superior batsmen and as for Murali I prefer a bowling line up that bowls legally.

Tendulkar and Dravid are more talented and better technically than Smith and Cook, so they would be better in any position in the batting line up, including against the new ball. I mean given how often India lost an opener early in overseas test matches, Dravid would basically come in against the new ball anyway.
Murali's bowling action was scrutinised and found to be legal.

I'll include Ian Bell as an opener in that case, neither of them opened so can't be considered there.

If you think Murali had a legal action then fair play to you.

Soul Requiem wrote:

I'll include Ian Bell as an opener in that case, neither of them opened so can't be considered there.

If you think Murali had a legal action then fair play to you.

I personally think Tendulkar is better than Ian Bell, but each to their own.

Completely forgot about Hayden who would definitely be opening alongside either Smith or Cook.

Hayden
Smith
Sangakkara
Smith
Kallis
Tendulkar
Gilchrist (wk)
Warne
Steyn
Murali
McGrath

I would go...

Hayden
G. Smith (Captain)
Kallis
S. Smith
AbDV
Sangakarra
Gilchrist
Warne
Steyn
McGrath
Anderson

ABDV at risk in the middle order from any of Williamson, Chanderpaul, Ponting, Tendulkar, Kohli, Yousuf. That was was definitely the toughest part of the team to pick - everything else almost picked itself.

Leaving out Tendulkar is a bit like leaving WG Grace out of a legends of the game XI
IMO you cant have ABD, Sanga ( as specialist bats) ahead of him. Lara is pushing it too, I think Tendulkar eventually won the battle of the big 3 and won pretty much everyone over in the end. Ditto kholi, whi might be the better all formats player but tests is arguably his weakest suit of the three.
Tendulkar first name on thebteamsheet for me.

Smiths a tricky one, you cant argue with his scores over theblast free years but his overall career contribution so far is nothing like some of the players who are getting left out. Add to that his character is serious lacking I cant see how he gets in anyones list.

Smith isn't tricky at all for me. He averages 63 in Test cricket. He is the first name on my team sheet batsman wise. No-one this century is close to that.

Sanga has more hundreds at a higher average that Tendulkar in the 21st Century. Quite comfortably too. ABDV would be the one to give way if anyone, but I just like watching him too much!

Gooseberry wrote:Leaving out Tendulkar is a bit like leaving WG Grace out of a legends of the game XI
IMO you cant have ABD, Sanga ( as specialist bats)  ahead of him. Lara is pushing it too, I think Tendulkar eventually won the battle of the big 3 and won pretty much everyone over in the end. Ditto kholi, whi might be the better all formats player but tests is arguably his weakest suit of the three.
Tendulkar first name on thebteamsheet for me.

Smiths a tricky one, you cant argue with his scores over theblast free years but his overall career contribution so far is nothing like some of the players who are getting left out. Add to that his character is serious lacking I cant see how he gets in anyones list.

I don't think Tendulkar is a sure thing at all especially when we consider performances this century, Lara was capable of producing innings that Tendulkar simply wasn't able to. No doubting the greatness of any other those mentioned.

Smith I can't include on the basis of being a loathsome human being and the overall lack of bowling talent around now compared to the early 2000's. I can't see Lara or Tendulkar failing to match his performances against weak attacks on benign Australian pitches. We shouldn't ignore how much Smith benefited last year from Anderson getting injured.

The most difficult thing is to take into consideration only performances this century.

I think you are underestimating the current bowling level's to be honest Soul. England have two of their best bowlers of all time, same with NZ - India definitely do have their best seam attack of all time and two pretty useful spinners too. He's played against Steyn, Morkel and Philander as well.

There was a definite lull in quality in late 00s and early 2010s, but the quality of fast bowling in particular is a good as it's been in a long time - when you add in all the Aussie guys in Cummins, Hazlewood etc. and Rabada + Archer as well.

There is benefitting from Anderson get injured and then there is Smith having one of the great Ashes series of all time. Not sure Anderson changes that much.

And also the this era has seen more teams producing 'friendly' home pitches than ever before.

Basically, discounting off the field stuff, Smith is the best batsman of the 21st century for me. Purely on performances this century.

Sangakkara averaged nearly 67 playing purely as a batsman so not sure we can read too much into averages.

JDizzle wrote:Smith isn't tricky at all for me. He averages 63 in Test cricket. He is the first name on my team sheet batsman wise. No-one this century is close to that.

Sanga has more hundreds at a higher average that Tendulkar in the 21st Century. Quite comfortably too. ABDV would be the one to give way if anyone, but I just like watching him too much!

Must admit I hadnt considered that much of Tendulkars career was pre 2000s, but that goes even more for Lara and he still had far more years as a top performer than Smith has managed to date, albeit that Smiths peak is something that noone (except Labuschagne) has matched. But still for me his character gets him ditched.
Sanga could fill the spot of keeper over Gilchrist/ABD, although I do take the point that his batting seemed to suffer when he did that hes still above anyone as a keeper batsman and had a longer test career entirely in this century.



i guess a lot of this comes down to is it combined performances during this century, for players entire career who played during this century, or peak of players who played during this century.

1.Smith
2.Hayden
3.Ponting
4.Sangakarra
5.Tendulkar
6.Kallis
7.Gilchrist (wk)
8.Warne (c)
9.Steyn
10.Murali
11.McGrath

12th man - Anderson

I feel absurd leaving out Lara but there's so much competition in the top order it's ridiculous. Dravid as well just feels silly leaving out.

Punter in his prime as a number 3 was a brilliant player though. Dominant against all forms of bowling, attacking high class test match fast bowling like a one day player before his time. Ponting is probably the best hooker and puller I've ever seen.

king_carlos wrote:1.Smith
2.Hayden
3.Ponting
4.Sangakarra
5.Tendulkar
6.Kallis
7.Gilchrist (wk)
8.Warne (c)
9.Steyn
10.Murali
11.McGrath

12th man - Anderson

I feel absurd leaving out Lara but there's so much competition in the top order it's ridiculous. Dravid as well just feels silly leaving out.

Punter in his prime as a number 3 was a brilliant player though. Dominant against all forms of bowling, attacking high class test match fast bowling like a one day player before his time. Ponting is probably the best hooker and puller I've ever seen.

Hi Carlos - ''ever seen'', better than Viv Richards?

Handy team btw.

guildfordbat wrote:

king_carlos wrote:1.Smith
2.Hayden
3.Ponting
4.Sangakarra
5.Tendulkar
6.Kallis
7.Gilchrist (wk)
8.Warne (c)
9.Steyn
10.Murali
11.McGrath

12th man - Anderson

I feel absurd leaving out Lara but there's so much competition in the top order it's ridiculous. Dravid as well just feels silly leaving out.

Punter in his prime as a number 3 was a brilliant player though. Dominant against all forms of bowling, attacking high class test match fast bowling like a one day player before his time. Ponting is probably the best hooker and puller I've ever seen.

Hi Carlos - ''ever seen'', better than Viv Richards?

Handy team btw.

Hi guildford - I hope you're keeping well in these strange times? Hopefully it won't be long until Surrey have another CC game at their favourite outground!

I think I would put Punter slightly above Viv as a player of the short ball. Viv was a brilliant hooker of the ball, incredibly powerful as with all his shots. Upon reading your comment I immediately had that imprint of IVA shuffling back and across his stumps to dispatch a perfectly good short ball with his maroon cap on.

Punter takes it for the control of his pull shot as well as his hooking. With most good hookers and pullers (Viv included) it feels like it's a high risk shot still. Ponting had a control of those shots so few master. He was also a brilliant player of the short ball through the off side. His cover driving off the back foot was up there with Tendulkar at times. A brilliant player of fast bowling.

I still consider Viv the most destructive batsman I've seen in first class cricket. Especially considering the bats and pitches back then. Graeme Pollock being the other who springs to mind. Just incredible power in their strokeplay. Oh what could have been for Barry Richards, Graeme Pollock and Mike Proctor. Phenomenal talents.

king_carlos wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

king_carlos wrote:1.Smith
2.Hayden
3.Ponting
4.Sangakarra
5.Tendulkar
6.Kallis
7.Gilchrist (wk)
8.Warne (c)
9.Steyn
10.Murali
11.McGrath

12th man - Anderson

I feel absurd leaving out Lara but there's so much competition in the top order it's ridiculous. Dravid as well just feels silly leaving out.

Punter in his prime as a number 3 was a brilliant player though. Dominant against all forms of bowling, attacking high class test match fast bowling like a one day player before his time. Ponting is probably the best hooker and puller I've ever seen.

Hi Carlos - ''ever seen'', better than Viv Richards?

Handy team btw.

Hi guildford - I hope you're keeping well in these strange times? Hopefully it won't be long until Surrey have another CC game at their favourite outground!

I think I would put Punter slightly above Viv as a player of the short ball. Viv was a brilliant hooker of the ball, incredibly powerful as with all his shots. Upon reading your comment I immediately had that imprint of IVA shuffling back and across his stumps to dispatch a perfectly good short ball with his maroon cap on.

Punter takes it for the control of his pull shot as well as his hooking. With most good hookers and pullers (Viv included) it feels like it's a high risk shot still. Ponting had a control of those shots so few master. He was also a brilliant player of the short ball through the off side. His cover driving off the back foot was up there with Tendulkar at times. A brilliant player of fast bowling.

I still consider Viv the most destructive batsman I've seen in first class cricket. Especially considering the bats and pitches back then. Graeme Pollock being the other who springs to mind. Just incredible power in their strokeplay. Oh what could have been for Barry Richards, Graeme Pollock and Mike Proctor. Phenomenal talents.

Hi Carlos - yeah, I'm pretty good, thanks. Mrs Bat and I became grandparents last summer. All fine on that front although mighty frustrating not to be able to see our granddaughter and the rest of the family in person. FaceTime and video clips obviously help but it's still not the same as the real thing. That said, I accept others are far, far worse off and that I should moan less than I do!

A typically good and considered reply from you about Punter and Viv. I was more interested in your further thoughts than backing one against the other.

As you say, Viv was so destructive - you could so often see it in his eyes as he marched to the wicket. Scary.

Punter's control was immense and stemmed so much imo from his commitment to make the utmost of his abilities. I saw him batting for Surrey at the Oval in his final fc appearance. Even when he had scored a century in that match, there was no easing up. Quite the opposite as he continued to practice shots when at the non-striker's end. Perfect role model.

I think you know I was and remain a great fan of that '69/70 South African side, especially Barry Richards and Mike Proctor who excelled in a strong English county era.

1) G Smith (c)
2) Hayden
3) Kallis
4) Ponting
5) S Smith
6) Sangakarra
7) Gilchrist (wk)
8) Warne
9) Steyn
10) Anderson
11) McGrath

Batting order is very interchangeable from 3-6. If two spinners, pop Murali in for Steyn.

Smith and Hayden are comfortably the best openers. Kallis was the best all-round cricketer ever. Ponting's ability against the short ball was unrivalled, and from 2003-2006/7 he was the premier batsman in the world. Steve Smith might be playing in a more batting-friendly era, but in the last 5 calendar years where he's played 5 tests or more he's averaging over 70 which is astonishing. Sangakarra's numbers without the gloves were also fantastic.

Cook, Dravid, Tendulkar, Chanderpaul, Lara, Amla...it seemed harsh to leave them out, but there isn't room for them all!

Gilchrist, Warne and McGrath don't really have much competition. Warne is still the best bowler I've ever seen. McGrath the most consistently accurate quick bowler. Anderson and Steyn have dominated the last decade.

Kallis better than Sobers all time? Big call.

If Kallis is expected bowl a fair bit then batting six with Ponting at 3 seems the way to go. Four and five are the big decisions to make.

Ponting was an absolute machine for a period of around five years in mid 00s - circa 2002 to 2007, where he averaged north of 70 in 60 Test matches. Machine.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/7133.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=start;spanmax1=25+dec+2007;spanmin1=01+jan+2002;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allround;view=series

I don't think Smith over Cook is that straight forward a decision to be honest. I'd go as far as to say that Cook is the better player of spin bowling by a massive margin with 16 centuries (6 against India) against the Asian teams compared to just 7 for Smith (0 against India or Sri Lanka), if it's a spinning pitch then it's a no brainer. Cook also has five centuries in Australia compared to 2 for Smith albeit you need to factor in Cook played 20 matches down under.

I'd also argue that opening the batting in England is harder than anywhere else in the world, does anything have a breakdown of their overall performances in each country?

Soul Requiem wrote:Kallis better than Sobers all time? Big call.

If Kallis is expected bowl a fair bit then batting six with Ponting at 3 seems the way to go. Four and five are the big decisions to make.

My reaction too. I would always choose Sobers but accept generational thinking almost certainly goes into that.

Soul Requiem wrote:I don't think Smith over Cook is that straight forward a decision to be honest. I'd go as far as to say that Cook is the better player of spin bowling by a massive margin with 16 centuries (6 against India) against the Asian teams compared to just 7 for Smith (0 against India or Sri Lanka), if it's a spinning pitch then it's a no brainer. Cook also has five centuries in Australia compared to 2 for Smith albeit you need to factor in Cook played 20 matches down under.

I'd also argue that opening the batting in England is harder than anywhere else in the world, does anything have a breakdown of their overall performances in each country?

Cook by country:

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/11728.html?class=1;filter=advanced;host=1;host=2;host=25;host=27;host=3;host=4;host=5;host=6;host=8;orderby=default;template=results;type=allround

Smith by country:

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/47270.html?class=1;filter=advanced;host=1;host=2;host=25;host=27;host=3;host=4;host=5;host=6;host=7;host=8;orderby=default;template=results;type=allround

Cook higher in Australia, India, Sri Lanka (small sample for both).

Smith higher in Bangladesh (only 4 Tests each), England, New Zealand, SA, UAE, West Indies.

1. Cook
2. Smith
3. Ponting
4. Kallis
5. Kohli
6. Pietersen
7. Sangakkara (wk)
8. Warne
9. Steyn
10. McGrath
11. Anderson

Kohli > Fraudchin Tendulkar is the correct opinion.
Sanga gets the gloves because it's often lost he was a bloody amazing keeper as well as a ludicrous batsman.
Rest is self explanatory

Average as keeper

Gilchrist- 47.6
Sangakkara- 40.48

I'll be honest I didn't consider Sanga to be anything more than a serviceable keeper in the test arena. You obviously have to factor in that one of them had to face the Aussie bowling line up and the other didn't.

guildfordbat wrote:
Hi Carlos - yeah, I'm pretty good, thanks. Mrs Bat and I became grandparents last summer. All fine on that front although mighty frustrating not to be able to see our granddaughter and the rest of the family in person. FaceTime and video clips obviously help but it's still not the same as the real thing. That said, I accept others are far, far worse off and that I should moan less than I do!

A typically good and considered reply from you about Punter and Viv. I was more interested in your further thoughts than backing one against the other.

As you say, Viv was so destructive - you could so often see it in his eyes as he marched to the wicket. Scary.

Punter's control was immense and stemmed so much imo from his commitment to make the utmost of his abilities. I saw him batting for Surrey at the Oval in his final fc appearance. Even when he had scored a century in that match, there was no easing up. Quite the opposite as he continued to practice shots when at the non-striker's end. Perfect role model.

I think you know I was and remain a great fan of that '69/70 South African side, especially Barry Richards and Mike Proctor who excelled in a strong English county era.

Glad to hear your doing well guildford. My sister was due to be getting married this weekend so obviously that's been postponed, but we are planning on having a group zoom call with the immediate family which should be a lot of fun. As you say it isn't the same as the real thing by any stretch though.

Agree completely about Punters control and tendency to bat big. He was also a batsman who scored runs against the very best.

As JDizzle showed well above with those stats, Punters sheer weight of run scoring during his best years was sublime and over a long period.

Last time Sanga kept wicket in Tests was 2008 - so basically didn’t do it for the entire second half of his career. You can argue his average would have gone up with the bat as a keeper as he got better, but likewise you can say his average improved that much as he didn’t have to keep. Not for me as a keeper in this side.

ABDV averaged 57 with 7 hundred as a keeper. Shame he only did it for 24 Tests.

On Ponting, his 156 in the fourth innings at OT was one of the best of the century so far for my money.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:1. Cook
2. Smith
3. Ponting
4. Kallis
5. Kohli
6. Pietersen
7. Sangakkara (wk)
8. Warne
9. Steyn
10. McGrath
11. Anderson

Kohli > Fraudchin Tendulkar is the correct opinion.
Sanga gets the gloves because it's often lost he was a bloody amazing keeper as well as a ludicrous batsman.
Rest is self explanatory

On Sanga being an amazing keeper I'd agree with Soul that he was more in the Alec Stewart or Andy Flower mould of doing it for the team. His average as a specialist batsman is unbelievable though of course. One of the great batsman.

Kohli as a ODI and T20 player is one of the very best of all time along with ABDV. His record in the shorter forms is unbelievable. Admittedly with the caveat of shorter boundaries and flat tracks.

As a test player there is a long way to go though. Even with Sachin's average dropping in the latter years of his career as he arguably played on significantly past his best, Tendulkar still has the slightly higher test average. Sachin also scored runs against outstanding attacks on what were generally tougher batting wickets.

I will admit bias toward Sachin though for the simple reason he's one of the nicest blokes in cricket whereas Kohli is a colossal phallus.

JDizzle wrote:Last time Sanga kept wicket in Tests was 2008 - so basically didn’t do it for the entire second half of his career. You can argue his average would have gone up with the bat as a keeper as he got better, but likewise you can say his average improved that much as he didn’t have to keep. Not for me as a keeper in this side.

ABDV averaged 57 with 7 hundred as a keeper. Shame he only did it for 24 Tests.

On Ponting, his 156 in the fourth innings at OT was one of the best of the century so far for my money.

As well as being an excellent keeper AB is also one of the best fielders the game has seen. Up there with Rhodes, Ponting, Collingwood, etc in the backward point to extra cover region. Just a remarkably talented sportsman.

That hundred at Old Trafford was one of the great captains knocks. Up against a Flintoff bowling at his very best and right on the ropes.

That entire test was remarkable in fact. Vaughan's excellent century alongside Warne getting 4 first innings wickets. Simon Jones six-fer in the first Aussie innings with Warne holing out on 90. Strauss hitting an excellent hundred and McGrath getting a five-fer (on one leg...) in the second innings. Then Punter scoring that brilliant century with Lee and McGrath clinging on at the end.

Don't forget that Jones ball to get Michael Clarke.

The bowling line up seems to have a fair consensus across the board with Anderson, McGrath, Steyn, Warne and Kallis, that quintet would not be conceding many boundaries.

The middle order is a free for all, I do like the idea of having Hayden opening with De Villiers at five and Gilchrist at seven.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:1. Cook
2. Smith
3. Ponting
4. Kallis
5. Kohli
6. Pietersen
7. Sangakkara (wk)
8. Warne
9. Steyn
10. McGrath
11. Anderson

Kohli > Fraudchin Tendulkar is the correct opinion.
Sanga gets the gloves because it's often lost he was a bloody amazing keeper as well as a ludicrous batsman.
Rest is self explanatory

Kohli over Tendulkar is absolutely crazy. Tendulkar has a higher average, and will likely end his career with more runs. Pietersen isn't close to Sachin on average or total runs.

With Sachin, I think people overlook his longevity. Of course average is important, but it may be easier to average 57 over 200 innings compared to averaging 53 over 300 innings like Sachin did. When you play for that long, it's impossible to not go through dips in form which has a negative impact on your average.

Also, he was brilliant to watch because his timing is so good.
The boundaries in this video are heavenly. Beauty after beauty. Number 2 is arguably one of the best shots I've ever seen.

I was being slightly provocative with my opening batsmen in my initial pick in OP. After some retrospection, this is my 1st XI and 2nd XI:

1st XI:

Hayden
G. Smith
Lara
Tendulkar
S.Smith
Sangakkara (WK)
Kallis
Warne
Anderson
McGrath
Muralitharan

2nd XI:

Cook
Sehwag
Dravid
Ponting
de Villiers
Kohli
Gilchrist (WK)
Kumble
Philander
Steyn
Boult


https://stats.espncricinfo.com/wi/content/records/223646.html