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Scotland 2020 Internationals

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Post by bsando Sun 23 Aug 2020, 4:02 pm

First topic message reminder :

With club rugby in Europe back up and running I thought it might be time to begin a new International thread.

Scotland's Upcoming 2020 International Fixtures

Warm Up

Scotland vs Georgia 23rd October BT Murrayfield (KO TBC)

6 Nations

Wales vs Scotland 31st October 2.15pm KO (venue TBC)

Eight Nations Tournament pool games

Italy vs Scotland November 14th November 12.45pm KO (Venue TBC)

Scotland vs France 22nd November 3pm KO BT Murrayfield

Scotland vs Fiji 28th November 1.45pm KO BT Murrayfield

December 5th Eight Nations play-off matches (1st vs 1st, 2nd vs 2nd, 3rd vs 3rd, 4th vs 4th)


Last edited by bsando on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 7:19 am; edited 4 times in total

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Post by RDW Sat 28 Nov 2020, 11:01 pm

Jack Stanley had been a regular starter for Gloucester at tighthead recently. I don't actually know if he is SQ (he played England under 20s) but was in the Edinburgh academy and played for Watson's in Super 6.

He is an absolute giant but never got a look in for Edinburgh. I think at the time he needed a lot of conditioning work to get up to speed for professional rugby. Looks like he's there now!

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Post by NeilyBroon Sun 29 Nov 2020, 8:02 am

RDW wrote:Jack Stanley had been a regular starter for Gloucester at tighthead recently. I don't actually know if he is SQ (he played England under 20s) but was in the Edinburgh academy and played for Watson's in Super 6.

He is an absolute giant but never got a look in for Edinburgh. I think at the time he needed a lot of conditioning work to get up to speed for professional rugby. Looks like he's there now!

Sounds like he might be through birthright like shug is. Always good to have options in the front row, provided he's actually interested in representing Scotland! Nice to have another player to keep an eye on in the EP.

Matt Scott is playing today too. I really hope he can replicate last season's form as I think he's probably one of our best options at 12 for the next 6Ns.
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Post by funnyExiledScot Sun 29 Nov 2020, 4:46 pm

BigGee wrote:Hutch scores a few moments after coming on for Saints.

Best Scottish player on the pitch so far has been Glen Young, who has been very solid in the row, for Quins

Hutch is such a classy player, and I'd be very happy seeing him in a Scotland jersey again, but I fear that Toonie has become wedded to Harris at 13. He sees 13 very differently to me!

12.Taylor 13.Hutch

12.Scott 13.Jones

12.Johnson 13.Harris

12.Hastings 13.Bennett

Plenty to choose from. I just don't think we have it right.

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Post by NeilyBroon Sun 29 Nov 2020, 5:07 pm

I get the feeling that Toonie associated all of the failings of the WC with our defensive frailties rather than his own gameplan and this is now reflected in his repeated selection of Harris and extreme rejection of Jones.

I know people reckon he's showed up this autumn but we've got to give it context. We played Georgia who were very poor. Italy who weren't wise enough to close the game out, Wales who are a basket case right now and when faced with tough opposition, France, we failed to score when we needed to. I have no problem with Harris coming on to sure things up if we're struggling but I'd rather see an attacking threat like Jones or Hutchinson start. Jones is probably a better defender than Hutchinson. If Toonie can't stomach that, bring Bennett back! He's probably the best of all worlds. Hopefully once he's back from injury he can get a good run with Edinburgh. In fact, why not do a midfield of Scott+Bennett? Both experienced internationals and are very much used to playing with each other.

We're definitely not in a place where we can rely on creativity from 10 for the next couple of months so we need the centres to essentially be the second playmaker.
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Post by funnyExiledScot Sun 29 Nov 2020, 5:31 pm

The centre issue is also cramping Hogg as well. He's becoming too easy for teams to mark out of the game because he's the only threat coming into the midfield. If we are going to stick with Johnson/Harris, then we need to get Graham and Duhan coming off their wings to offer more variety in attack. It's far too predictable at the moment, and Price seems to have been told not to play on his attacking instincts. In addressing the WC failings we've thrown the baby out with the bath water.

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Post by NeilyBroon Sun 29 Nov 2020, 6:01 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:The centre issue is also cramping Hogg as well. He's becoming too easy for teams to mark out of the game because he's the only threat coming into the midfield. If we are going to stick with Johnson/Harris, then we need to get Graham and Duhan coming off their wings to offer more variety in attack. It's far too predictable at the moment, and Price seems to have been told not to play on his attacking instincts. In addressing the WC failings we've thrown the baby out with the bath water.

I thought post world cup, and still think, that we need another input in attack other than Toonie. I think he was lucky to be blessed with mad talents at Glasgow that masked his gameplan inadequacies, peak Matawalu, VdM at his prime, Seymour at his prime, Hogg, Bennett, Dunbar and Finn. Also a lot these players were coached in the national side by Jason o'halloran who I think can be given a lot of credit for our attacking structure over the last few years.

When you compare it to his impact on the Scotland attack under Robinson I think there's not much creativity to it. Our offloading game has all but disappeared over the last 3 years. When I see Harris drop another pass trying to batter straight into his opposite man I despair for our attack. It's back to side to side running and grinding tries out from the pack until we face a top 10 side then struggle to score at all.

Can't think who I'd have come in but we could do with someone consulting in attack! I think a condition of Toonies contract when it's renewed is that he steps back into a more managerial role and gives the backs/attack job to someone else. Hell we may even see the return of shug if that happens!
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Post by NeilyBroon Sun 29 Nov 2020, 6:01 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:The centre issue is also cramping Hogg as well. He's becoming too easy for teams to mark out of the game because he's the only threat coming into the midfield. If we are going to stick with Johnson/Harris, then we need to get Graham and Duhan coming off their wings to offer more variety in attack. It's far too predictable at the moment, and Price seems to have been told not to play on his attacking instincts. In addressing the WC failings we've thrown the baby out with the bath water.

I thought post world cup, and still think, that we need another input in attack other than Toonie. I think he was lucky to be blessed with mad talents at Glasgow that masked his gameplan inadequacies, peak Matawalu, VdM at his prime, Seymour at his prime, Hogg, Bennett, Dunbar and Finn. Also a lot these players were coached in the national side by Jason o'halloran who I think can be given a lot of credit for our attacking structure over the last few years.

When you compare it to his impact on the Scotland attack under Robinson I think there's not much creativity to Toonies gameplan on the whole, he's just been lucky, or clever, with the people around him. Our offloading game has all but disappeared over the last 3 years. When I see Harris drop another pass trying to batter straight into his opposite man I despair for our attack. It's back to side to side running and grinding tries out from the pack until we face a top 10 side then struggle to score at all.

Can't think who I'd have come in but we could do with someone consulting in attack! I think a condition of Toonies contract when it's renewed is that he steps back into a more managerial role and gives the backs/attack job to someone else. Hell we may even see the return of shug if that happens!
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Post by RDW Sun 29 Nov 2020, 9:33 pm

I wonder if both teams are going to mix things up a bit for this game. Ireland's form is pretty honking just now - sounds like they very much laboured to a win against Georgia - and we're not exactly firing on all cylinders. I'm not sure what either team would gain from slugging it out with our top players at this stage of the season either, for basically what is a friendly.

It takes a good bit of pressure off too as both teams can put a loss down to experiementing.

Assuming the players that played this weekend come back into the fold, something like:

1 Kebble
2 Turner
3 Berghan
4 Skinner
5 Cummings
6 Thomson
7 Cowan
8 CDP

9 SHC
10 VDW
11 VDM
12 Taylor
13 Jones (not it will happen)
14 Graham
15 Maitland

Subs - Bhattie, McInally, Fagerson, J Gray, Ritchie, Price, Weir, Harris

Probably a bit too experimental but you get the idea!

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Post by BigGee Sun 29 Nov 2020, 10:03 pm

RDW wrote:I wonder if both teams are going to mix things up a bit for this game. Ireland's form is pretty honking just now - sounds like they very much laboured to a win against Georgia - and we're not exactly firing on all cylinders. I'm not sure what either team would gain from slugging it out with our top players at this stage of the season either, for basically what is a friendly.

It takes a good bit of pressure off too as both teams can put a loss down to experiementing.

Assuming the players that played this weekend come back into the fold, something like:

1 Kebble
2 Turner
3 Berghan
4 Skinner
5 Cummings
6 Thomson
7 Cowan
8 CDP

9 SHC
10 VDW
11 VDM
12 Taylor
13 Jones (not it will happen)
14 Graham
15 Maitland

Subs - Bhattie, McInally, Fagerson, J Gray, Ritchie, Price, Weir, Harris

Probably a bit too experimental but you get the idea!

I would like to see a few changes, but not as many as that!

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Post by RDW Sun 29 Nov 2020, 10:07 pm

Ok that back row is a bit much but there are a few things worth seeing. Skinner starting being the main one I reckon.

I'm in two minds about VDW - if there's a chance he'll be seeing gametime in the 6N we might as well throw him in at the deep end and give him a start. As I've previously mentioned though it will be a big ask putting him straight in when he'll definitely be rusty.

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Post by BigGee Sun 29 Nov 2020, 10:21 pm

RDW wrote:Ok that back row is a bit much but there are a few things worth seeing. Skinner starting being the main one I reckon.

I'm in two minds about VDW - if there's a chance he'll be seeing gametime in the 6N we might as well throw him in at the deep end and give him a start. As I've previously mentioned though it will be a big ask putting him straight in when he'll definitely be rusty.

Can't see it happening for VDW, as you say, not played for three weeks and straight into an international v Ireland, cap him off the bench and take it from there.

I would be happy to see Skinner start as well, but less sure who to drop to the bench for him!

I would love to see a Taylor/Jones centre combo, but just don't see it happening either.

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Post by NeilyBroon Mon 30 Nov 2020, 7:50 am

Toonie did highlight the attack issue after France and does tend to base his gameplan solely on having a creative 10. This is why I think he'll pick VdW, regardless of gametime. Not that he's that much different to Weir but I think Toonie will see him as a more attacking change that won't have any detrimental effects to the defence too.

The centres won't likely change. I can only see Taylor being switched in for Johnson. Harris was the only English prem player other than Hogg not released to his club. Toonie will have a hard time if he doesn't start him now.

My stab at the starting XV:
Kebble
McInally
Fagerson
Cummings
Gray
Ritchie
Watson
Fagerson

Price
VdW

VdM
Johnson
Harris
Graham (if fit, Maitland if not)
Hogg

turner, Bhatti (Sutherland if fit), Nel, Skinner (if available, Toolis if not), Horne, Weir, Maitland (or Kinghorn if fit)
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Post by TJ Mon 30 Nov 2020, 12:08 pm

VDW is not as good as Weir. Very erratic IMO

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Post by NeilyBroon Mon 30 Nov 2020, 12:34 pm

Not disagreeing with you there TJ. Trying to put myself in Toonie's mindset! There's also been a lot of press about him linking back up with scotland considering he's just come back from SA. Worth bearing in mind that he was training with the squad before he left too. I expect Toonie has him penciled for at least a half if not starting.
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Post by BigGee Mon 30 Nov 2020, 12:38 pm

We need another FH, the injuries to Russell and Hastings show that. If Weir went down know as well we would be f*#ked


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Post by NeilyBroon Mon 30 Nov 2020, 12:52 pm

BigGee wrote:We need another FH, the injuries to Russell and Hastings show that. If Weir went down know as well we would be f*#ked


Chamberlain is ready, he's had 4 pro games. Chuck him in there!

It's all the more shame that McClelland decided he didn't fancy union after 10 minutes with cockers and buggered off back to league. He looked like he could've become a really handy player.

There was a time when shug was training to cover FH. Could we not just use him for that seeing as he'll get jack sh*t otherwise?
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Post by funnyExiledScot Mon 30 Nov 2020, 8:06 pm

Regarding rotation, I wouldn't mess about with the pack too much, but I'd like to see the backline shuffled a bit. Perhaps try Harris at 12 to accommodate Jones at 13. VdW could get a debut from the bench, but I'd give Weir another start. He deserves it.

If you want to start Skinner I'd put J Gray on the bench.

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Post by Anglobraveheart Mon 30 Nov 2020, 8:37 pm

FES, the Harris Jones centre combo was tried in Feb 2018 against Wales, albeit, with Jones at 12 and Harris at 13. It was a disaster.
I can't see Jones being included in the matchday 23, but I would love to eat my words.
I think that GT will stubbornly stick with Johnson at 12 and Harris at 13, and with steady Dunc or untried and uninspiring Jaco at 10.
Taylor will bench, and we'll have an arm wrestle that produces very little or no tries for either side.  
Having witnessed the potentially dullest Scotland performance for years last time out, and Ireland being pretty dull too on Sunday, I'm really struggling to find any positive enthusiasm for this match up of two very dull teams.
Unless we have a change in the midfield, I am inwardly cringing at the potential dullfest in dull Dublin.
However, we may well be saved on the day by an incredibly entertaining Georgia v Fiji match. If GT selects as I suspect he will above, I am really praying that Fiji are fit and well and over their Covid challenges.
At least that way there will be some decent entertainment to look forward to.

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Post by RDW Mon 30 Nov 2020, 8:56 pm

Aye I can't imagine the current trend for box kicks and focus on defence will be adopted by Fiji!

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Post by Anglobraveheart Mon 30 Nov 2020, 9:16 pm

They'll be absolutely gagging for it.
Hopefully they will try and run everything.

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Post by BigGee Mon 30 Nov 2020, 10:42 pm

Anglobraveheart wrote:They'll be absolutely gagging for it.
Hopefully they will try and run everything.

It has actually got the making of an interesting game.

The Georgians will be nothing if not battle hardened and the Fijians have been stuck in a hotel for the past three weeks, hardly ideal prep and they may be more than a bit sluggish.

I guess we will see on Saturday

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Post by Highland Shaun Mon 30 Nov 2020, 11:23 pm

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/scottish-daily-mail/20201130/283201560862343

A very interesting article written by Rob Robertson in his Daily Mail column today.

Will be worth discussing I'd say ;-).

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 01 Dec 2020, 10:03 am

The question posed by the article (Is there not a single home grown Scot who can play in these positions?) is easily answered. Obviously not. If there were, then these players would not get games. What these initiatives do give us is badly needed depth. What would our resources at loosehead look like without it? Sutherland....Allan...ummm. I'm pleased it's been moved to 5 years, but if youngsters like Venter want to move here as kids and do the time, then I'm equally cool with that.

I'm sure it won't be long before the Aussies try and cap RDW on the wing. When he comes up against Duhan in a Scotland jersey, surely that's the sort of multiculturalism we can all get behind....

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Post by tigertattie Tue 01 Dec 2020, 10:15 am

I'm not a coach but I agree with many others on here that our midfield is too defensive.

You play Hutch and Harris, or you play Johnson and Jones.

One straight runner/blunt instrument, one elusive/creative player

It's that or you play 2 jack of all trades like Scott and Bennett. Years ago Toonie would have gone for two flighty players like Hutch and Jones but he's completely come away from the fastest rugby in the world. Almost like he's been getting pelters for losing games with batschittery so he's done a total U-turn to save his job!!!!

Harris gets pleters but he was far better this AI series than Sam Johnson. I know folk say Johnson was coming back from injury but if that’s the case, don’t pick him for international rugby until he's 100%

Unfortunately we're short of centres as they were not in the initial squad (selection boo boos or injury) so we're stuck with Johnson and Harris for Ireland. This simply means that VDMk2 has to come looking for work to keep Ireland thinking. If we run Johnson and Harris at them all afternoon, they'll just do choke tackle after choke tackle all day long!
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Post by Gooseberry Tue 01 Dec 2020, 12:46 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:The question posed by the article (Is there not a single home grown Scot who can play in these positions?) is easily answered. Obviously not. If there were, then these players would not get games. What these initiatives do give us is badly needed depth. What would our resources at loosehead look like without it? Sutherland....Allan...ummm. I'm pleased it's been moved to 5 years, but if youngsters like Venter want to move here as kids and do the time, then I'm equally cool with that.

I'm sure it won't be long before the Aussies try and cap RDW on the wing. When he comes up against Duhan in a Scotland jersey, surely that's the sort of multiculturalism we can all get behind....


agreed.

The number of residency qualified players isnt a damning indictment of the selection policy or clubs, its an indictment of the youth and academy development systems and attraction of rugby as a potential career.

This have shifted the other way to a large extent in England, the clubs still have a large number of foreign players but are less dependant on them and the big marquee signings. The players mentioned in the article all moved here as children and developed here, they aren't club mercenaries like Flutey. Whats changed? The Academies and age grade teams are producing more high quality professionals.

Its always going to be hard for the SRU to match that, supporting places like Ampthill requires a big catchment and a lot of money. But ultimately if Scotland wants Scottish born players, to be able to support a competitive national side and professional clubs they would need to make the changes at that level. Its the same issue that Wales are facing, no shock theres more players coming in who were schooled in England.

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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama Tue 01 Dec 2020, 1:29 pm

What I disagree with every time arguments around selecting 'foreign' players comes up if the implication that there is some sort of moral sliding scale at play. How many players who fall into this category is acceptable and where are we drawing this imaginary line? This time around Robertson seems to have settled on 6 as his arbitrary line in the sand. It is of course all total nonsense, you either pick residency qualified players for your country or you don't. If you want to claim some sort of moral highground then you need to do so by not picking residency players at all, not by doing it fewer times than others do then making digs at them.

The whole topic is extremely boring, yes the rules should probably be changed (maybe eventually it will even happen after numerous delays). But to all intents and purposes these players all are Scottish according to the way sport works, and therefore it is entirely the right thing to pick the strongest international side available to you within the bounds of those rules.

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Post by Highland Shaun Tue 01 Dec 2020, 5:57 pm

I hope Rob Robertson isn't a member on here because if so, he won't like this next bit :-P.

First things first, by June test against Georgia and Romania, the number will increase by one when Schoeman will likely get gametime.

Also, I've seen online and on Twitter that a Munster player is linked with Glasgow and is SQ, his name is Ben Healy.

Finally, back onto the article, I wonder what Rob's stance is on players like Cameron Redpath who ditched Scotland in favour of England.

I'm with most on here, if they are good enough then they deserve capped, Scottish or not ;-).

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Post by jimbopip Tue 01 Dec 2020, 6:26 pm

Highland Shaun;

apparently Ben Healy's mother is Scottish. According to my sons that makes a person 100% Scottish.

Oh! On the subject of qualifying through one's parentage....I notice there is a Christian Townsend in the under 20's squad. He plays for Ayr so is obviously World Class.

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Post by Highland Shaun Tue 01 Dec 2020, 6:31 pm

Maybe I'm totally jumping the gun here, or not understanding your sarcasm but, where did I ever say BH was "world class"???

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Post by jimbopip Tue 01 Dec 2020, 7:52 pm

No sarcasm at all HS Hug

It is young Christian Townsend who is doubly World Class. As GC will tell you, God knows he's told everyone else, anyone who is fortunate enough to play for Ayr is de facto World Class. Secondly young Christian may have inherited World Class genes chin

p.s. I don't do sarcasm. Too much effort.

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Post by Highland Shaun Tue 01 Dec 2020, 8:01 pm

jimbopip wrote:No sarcasm at all HS Hug

It is young Christian Townsend who is doubly World Class. As GC will tell you, God knows he's told everyone else, anyone who is fortunate enough to play for Ayr is de facto World Class. Secondly young Christian may have inherited World Class genes chin

p.s. I don't do sarcasm. Too much effort.

OK Hug


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Post by NeilyBroon Tue 01 Dec 2020, 8:50 pm

I was glad to see the U20s are still going ahead. It will be the only gametime they get this season so is very important to maintain player development. Toonie Jr is supposedly a prospect. Although it's always easy to get excited with a famous name attached, a la Hastings. Will be good to see what he can do. Also Ben Healy is an interesting one, especially as Toonie apparently earmarked him as someone with great potential. He's not played Ireland u20 has he? Are they the second string for Ireland? Don't want another Steve shingler incident!
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Post by Mcsweens Tue 01 Dec 2020, 9:24 pm

On the Rob Robertson article:
I agree it's boring and I also agree with everything that has thus far been said. But it was on my mind today and I'll share what few original thoughts I have.

It's hard to underestimate how unhealthy Scotland is, - when I moved South I think, statistically I added 5 years on to my life expectancy based on the averages in Glasgow v Warwickshire. Also, it is telling how few people have ever played rugby, let alone play now - I think the number of adult male players is down at about 5000 these days.

So, it makes sense to go after SQ players "from" elsewhere, and of course everyone should be encouraged to travel and take new opportunities when they arise. Kevin Ferrie made a good point that many people over the last 100 years would never have left Scotland had the economic opportunities been around for them at the time. And so there is a certain poetry to their offspring coming back for opportunities here.

If there were 15 project players on the field for Scotland, to take it to the most extreme scenario, it would stick in my throat, but I would support them.

Ultimately, it comes back to grassroots numbers. I think that the first responsibility of the SRU is to look after the grassroots and the playing numbers, rather than Scotland winning - the long term health is most important, and playing numbers shouldn't be so low.

Lastly I really Like RR - he is incredibly knowledgeable and enthusiastic about the game, and anyone who writes a play on the life of Bill Maclaren is naturally OK by me

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Post by RDW Tue 01 Dec 2020, 9:51 pm

Excellent post Mcsweens.

Playing numbers in Scotland are abysmal, and way, way lower than every other 6N country. We also have the least number of pro players than any 6N country.

I fear what impact the pandemic will have on playing numbers as a lot of old stalwarts might take it as the excuse they were needing to retire. I know plenty clubs who have been relying on the same 1 or 2 props for 10 years and if they left they'd have no one else, which means fixtures will be regularly cancelled, more players decide to leave, young players don't get games.....

I agree with the comments on where do you draw the line on the correct number of project players. For me, 6 is a bit much but it doesn't really bother me that much. What is very apparent is that there isn't really anyone to replace them who is 'pure blood' just now!

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Post by Mcsweens Tue 01 Dec 2020, 9:57 pm

RDW wrote:Excellent post Mcsweens.

Playing numbers in Scotland are abysmal, and way, way lower than every other 6N country. We also have the least number of pro players than any 6N country.

I fear what impact the pandemic will have on playing numbers as a lot of old stalwarts might take it as the excuse they were needing to retire. I know plenty clubs who have been relying on the same 1 or 2 props for 10 years and if they left they'd have no one else, which means fixtures will be regularly cancelled, more players decide to leave, young players don't get games.....

I agree with the comments on where do you draw the line on the correct number of project players. For me, 6 is a bit much but it doesn't really bother me that much. What is very apparent is that there isn't really anyone to replace them who is 'pure blood' just now!

Thankyou RDW - very nice of you to say.

My brother has recently retired - from Ayr RFC no less! - so I fear there may well be a lot of old stagers who move on this year.

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Post by RDW Tue 01 Dec 2020, 10:02 pm

I'm guessing he was world class too?

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Post by Mcsweens Tue 01 Dec 2020, 10:58 pm

I'd say possibly somewhere below world class.

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Post by BigGee Wed 02 Dec 2020, 4:39 pm


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Post by tigertattie Sat 05 Dec 2020, 12:19 pm

In other news. Is this Mike Adamson’s first international match?
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Post by RiscaGame Sat 05 Dec 2020, 12:50 pm

I thought I heard the commentators say third in three years?

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Post by 123456789. Sat 05 Dec 2020, 4:45 pm

If you wanted to view Scottish rugby in a microcosm this game has been as good as any.

The first 30 minutes was brilliant. I thought at that point we would win comfortably. The hour after was a combination of stupidity and inaccuracy. Our attack needs to improve drastically. It seems at the moment to be a tactic that boils down to get the ball wide to Hoggy and see what he can do. We don't do any moves. Certainly none that seem to work. I found out recently that the internet is not good for the environment so I won't burn up any more trees than necessary on Chris Harris. All I would say is that he must have something on Gregor Townsend. Taylor was making lots of half-breaks. A decent 13 would have been on his shoulder.

The defence has been outstanding this year. This was a blip. However, the penalty count was far, far too high. I've seen Ritchie be touted as a Lion. Not a chance. His decision making at the break down is horrendous. There were so so so so many times when a ruck was completely dead and he just went in on it anyway and suddenly the team are trudging 40-50 metres back up the pitch. Fraser Brown needs to be smarter. The amount of penalties he's given away tracking back is ridiculous.

In short we need to get smarter. But that has been the case for years and years. There's a huge amount of potential for the Six Nations but there's no change there.

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Post by Highland Shaun Sat 05 Dec 2020, 7:01 pm

I thought I'd put this here instead of posting a new thread.

How would you sum up.our 2020, for me its average or about expected, we end mid table of 6N and ABC (we end 4th out of 8) bjt we NEED to improve discipline and our attack if we are going to make it to the next level or be contenders for the upcoming 6N!

Not seen today's game (thank f***) but it sounds like van der Walt had a good game and, thats another try for DVDM so he could be crucial to us in the near future.

Going by Instagram posters, it sounds like Price had a shocker and Hogg was ag poor but they may be biased.

Our next game.......England at Twickenham in opener of 6N so more calls for GT head could be imminent, which is stupid imho. Its almost certain that he will get a new deal which takes him until after next world cup so we need to back him!

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Post by NeilyBroon Sat 05 Dec 2020, 7:15 pm

Highland Shaun wrote:I thought I'd put this here instead of posting a new thread.

How would you sum up.our 2020, for me its average or about expected, we end mid table of 6N and ABC (we end 4th out of 8) bjt we NEED to improve discipline and our attack if we are going to make it to the next level or be contenders for the upcoming 6N!

Not seen today's game (thank f***) but it sounds like van der Walt had a good game and, thats another try for DVDM so he could be crucial to us in the near future.

Going by Instagram posters, it sounds like Price had a shocker and Hogg was ag poor but they may be biased.

Our next game.......England at Twickenham in opener of 6N so more calls for GT head could be imminent, which is stupid imho. Its almost certain that he will get a new deal which takes him until after next world cup so we need to back him!

Agree that it's been distinctly average. Still believe further changes need to be made in coaching set up. The whole team used to attack in an attempt to emulate NZ. Now it's just a few players while the others stand back 10 metres and watch like the bad old days.

Toonie has fixed one problem but he also needs to acknowledge his own limitations in attack coaching and step back into a team manager role as opposed to coach. I said in the other thread and have thought for a while that Toonies attack is very much dependent on one player dictating everything, whether it's Finn, Hogg, or whoever. If they can't manage to break the defence single handedly then the whole team struggles.

We were playing smart attacking rugby in 2017/18 during and post O'halloran. Just as replacing Taylor improved defence and replacing Wilson improved our forwards I think getting someone else in to do attack would do wonders potentially, if they're right for the job of course. Scotland are playing like Edinburgh in attack. That annoying constant almost but not really. It's like going back to when only Tim visser could score tries for Scotland.
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Post by TJ Sun 06 Dec 2020, 9:38 am

For me?  Townsend is not the coach we need.  We have regressed since he started and even now are not back to the heights of 2017

Hoggs issue is he is trying to win everything on his own and is being marked out of games.  Now with a proper attack structure this would create space elsewhere but no one is attempting to find it. Not one midfeild move all game, no runarounds no scissors nothing - just shoveling the ball along the line

We are not going to improve under Townsend.

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Post by bsando Sun 06 Dec 2020, 10:52 am

Alright let's have a wee look at what this "I thought the first 35 minutes was some of the best rugby we've played all year" was all about yesterday then, because I failed to noticed 35 minutes of the best rugby played by Scotland this year.

In the first five minutes Ritchie and Brown alone shipped two penalties (Ritchie), an Ireland turnover and a failure to offload to Taylor for what would have been an excellent attacking opportunity (both Brown).

"I thought the first 35 minutes was some of the best rugby we've played all year," the Scotland coach said.

Price sucks the Irish defensive line into going offside and wins Scotland a penalty and their first points, smart play by the scrum half.

Hogg needs to pass it more. I think this is something we keep saying every second game about him. At 14.28 He could have drawn Sexton into the tackle and released VDM but he went himself and was well covered by POM. Scotland then get good field position thanks to a Price box kick and manage to steal the lineout. This has to be a try, Scotland have all the momentum. A few good phases by the forwards ruined by a poor pass from Thomson to VDW, who knocks on. That's 15m30s into the match, zero try scoring chances taken and a few flashes of good play.

"I thought the first 35 minutes was some of the best rugby we've played all year," the Scotland coach said.

Unluckily the ref missed a high tackle by Sexton in the subsequent Scottish attack which allowed Ireland a scrum for the knock on by VDW. Pack save the day again with a fine scrum to win a penalty to make it 6 - 0 Sco. Forwards are doing well with the exception of Brown and Ritchie at the breakdown.

A well executed restart defence and some good dominant tackles from Sutherland force Murray to box kick from the halfway line allowing Hogg to boot the subsequent kick deep down the middle into irelands half. But Earls boots a good up and under that Scotland gather, but they are playing it inside their own half. Price fires a poor pass to no one and Ireland win turnover ball, Brown makes a poor, no arms tackle and Ireland win their first penalty and points of the match all from Scotland ill discipline and mistakes at 22m35s.

"I thought the first 35 minutes was some of the best rugby we've played all year," the Scotland coach said.

Now, finally some good Scottish rugby occurs. Scotland play it through the hands and Taylor (who can pass) finally releases VDM on his wing and VDM gets Scotland into the Irish 22. POM strips the ball illegally and Scotland get another 3 points to make it 3-9 Sco. That is 1 minute of good rugby to add to the other small flashes from the first 24 minutes of the match.

Another good restart defence and the ref misses a knock on by Murray at 27.14. Ireland boot it and Henshaw gathers it well and it looks like they will have a great attacking opportunity. Luckily Price is smart and nabs the ball that has been left for no one at the ruck and saves Scotland. Hogg clears, Ireland return and VDW kicks a perfect touch finder in Irelands 22. That makes it 5 minutes of great rugby and Scotland look like they have started to creep away slightly if they can keep Ireland pinned in their own half. But Fagerson tackles Aki in the air and Ireland win a penalty. hard worked pressure relieved.

At 30 mins Taylor ships a penalty advantage for not rolling away quickly enough and then gets his yellow card. 6-9 Scotland.

"I thought the first 35 minutes was some of the best rugby we've played all year," the Scotland coach said.

Hogg has a good little dart down the wing after the restart and his offload is slapped back by Ireland. Darcy kicks it on and tries to chase but then he is taken out illegally by Henderson. Another missed call from the officials! (I didn't notice half of these during the match) Ireland end up maintaining possession and winning a good 50-60m of territory after VDW is forced to kick for touch. Ireland attack and after numerous Scottish infringements score their first try and the first of the match.

"I thought the first 35 minutes was some of the best rugby we've played all year," the Scotland coach said.

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Post by Old Man Sun 06 Dec 2020, 11:22 am

Sounds like rhe referee was asleep during this match.

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Post by TJ Sun 06 Dec 2020, 11:48 am

Refs will always miss things. I thought the reffing was fine. I bet if you went thru a match forensically with super slow mo you could find 100+ penalties in a match

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Post by NeilyBroon Sun 06 Dec 2020, 12:26 pm

TJ wrote:For me?  Townsend is not the coach we need.  We have regressed since he started and even now are not back to the heights of 2017

Hoggs issue is he is trying to win everything on his own and is being marked out of games.  Now with a proper attack structure this would create space elsewhere but no one is attempting to find it. Not one midfeild move all game, no runarounds no scissors nothing - just shoveling the ball along the line

We are not going to improve under Townsend.

Games against weaker opposition and a new defensive coach have papered over the cracks so the SRU are happy. We've really just shot ourselves in the foot over the last 3/4 years at international and club in spite of generally improving standards because of stupid managerial decisions and a bad case of nepotism, which seems endemic in Scottish rugby.
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Post by bsando Sun 06 Dec 2020, 1:57 pm

NeilyBroon wrote:
TJ wrote:For me?  Townsend is not the coach we need.  We have regressed since he started and even now are not back to the heights of 2017

Hoggs issue is he is trying to win everything on his own and is being marked out of games.  Now with a proper attack structure this would create space elsewhere but no one is attempting to find it.  Not one midfeild move all game, no runarounds no scissors nothing - just shoveling the ball along the line

We are not going to improve under Townsend.

Games against weaker opposition and a new defensive coach have papered over the cracks so the SRU are happy. We've really just shot ourselves in the foot over the last 3/4 years at international and club in spite of generally improving standards because of stupid managerial decisions and a bad case of nepotism, which seems endemic in Scottish rugby.

I guess the positive outlook is Townsend and his team are trying to merry up the defensive game with an attacking game that strikes a healthy balance. Clearly not there yet. I just wonder how many chances you give the coaches? What is the standard now? I like coaches to have the time to make a plan happen but your average Scotland fan will be pretty annoyed if they lose the next three games in the 2021 6N.

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Post by bsando Sun 06 Dec 2020, 1:58 pm

TJ wrote:Refs will always miss things.  I thought the reffing was fine.  I bet if you went thru a match forensically with super slow mo you could find 100+ penalties in a match

Absolutely TJ, those were just a couple of fairly obvious ones I thought impacted the result a little bit

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