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Wales v England, Parc y Scarlets, 28th November 16:00

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 22 Nov 2020, 8:12 am

First topic message reminder :

England have been pretty comfortable so far clearly led by a set of forwards performing brilliantly. Breakdown, lineout, scrum, everything has been smooth and frankly dominant.

The backs continue to stutter looking for a bit of cohesion, perhaps unsurprisingly to an extent given there have been shuffles to selections. We've perhaps learnt that Furbank isnt good enough for international rugby and that having a winger play on the wing is sometimes a good thing. Obviously this means Jones will ignore that.

One guy completely set in stone is May who moved to joint second highest try scorer for England though. Always lightening but added so much to his game. Hes been relatively quiet this year but excellent yesterday. Quotes from Jones via  the bbc "The great thing is he is 30 and still improving,"
"There is no limit to where he can go. I don't think I have ever seen a player who is more professional in his preparation than Jonny. He is fast and elusive, at one stage it looked like he had spiders all over him."

He was always playing well when he got his england chance but obviously the best players continue to improve. You would normally say first name on the team sheet but theres about 5 of them at the moment.

Jones also said: 'We put ourselves in a good position to maybe go on and dominate. We didn't, but there is a lot more in us, which is pleasing," added Jones, who was named England head coach five years ago on Friday.

"Defence was pretty good but we are disappointed with the try at the end. We'd have liked to have a clean sheet, as they say in football, but we are improving. I particularly liked the ferocity of our ruck defence today."

"Wales is a massive game," added Jones. "If they have one game a year to save their season, it is against England. There is intense rivalry, the Scarlets' ground is an open one, so the elements will affect the game. It will be tough and we will pick our best 23 again."

Seems to me hes also a touch annoyed we didnt add more to the scoreboard and nil Ireland. Great defence clearly in the 2nd half but we struggled for field possession. The last sentence for me could be a bit misleading as it suggests the same team and bench for Wales, cant help but feel there'll be 2 or 3 changes though.


Again from the beeb it looks like Wales have a few injuries and doubts for the game: Tipuric was forced off the field in the second half, while Wales full-back Liam Williams also left the field with 15 stitches in his mouth after a stray boot but should be fit to face England. Wing Johnny McNicholl also departed with a rib cartilage issue.

Bath number eight Taulupe Faletau will be fit after recovering from injury, while Cardiff Blues back-rower Josh Navidi is battling to be in contention after missing the autumn programme so far with his own concussion issues.

Ross Moriarty is sidelined with an ankle problem.

Dragons back-rower Aaron Wainwright was handed the man-of-the-match accolade against Georgia after an impressive performance at number eight with Pivac believing this should be his long-term position.

"I personally like him at eight," added Pivac.

"I prefer him at eight to six. He gets his hands on the ball, he has very good acceleration out of the boot.

"You saw some of those skills tonight and I like him in that position."

Wales have an outside centre void to fill missing against England with Jonathan Davies set to miss the game with a knee problem. Johnny Williams impressed at inside centre on his debut.'

All set for a comfortable Wales win then.


Teams

Wales

TBC


England

Daly; Joseph, Slade, Farrell, May; Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Launchbury, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Hill, Earl, Willis, Robson, Watson

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Post by king_carlos Tue 24 Nov 2020, 2:00 pm

1.Vunipola
2.George
3.Sinckler
4.Launchbury
5.Itoje
6.Curry
7.Underhill
8.Vunipola

9.Youngs
10.Ford

11.May
12.Farrell
13.Lawrence
14.Watson
15.Daly

16.Cowan-Dickie
17.Genge
18.Stuart
19.Hill
20.Earl
21.Robson
22.Slade
23.Joseph

That would be my prediction for the side.

Personally I'd have Mitchell on the bench over Robson and give Stuart another start but other than that I'd be very happy with the above 23.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 24 Nov 2020, 2:02 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/55057978

An interesting interview with Sinckler discussing his form being lower since moving to Bristol.

I hadn't realised he made 20 tackles on Saturday though. Similar to Billy it's easy to overlook the amount of work the England pack gets through in defence under Jones even if they aren't standing out in attack as much as usual.

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 24 Nov 2020, 2:09 pm

Looks about right that team KC, would prefer to see Big Joe or Thorley in the 23 in place of one of the centres but can't see that happening.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 24 Nov 2020, 3:42 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Looks about right that team KC, would prefer to see Big Joe or Thorley in the 23 in place of one of the centres but can't see that happening.
In terms of development I'd actually like Marchant on the bench. Dropping Joseph would be a tough call though after he's been pretty good since the restart.

Dropping Slade leaves us shorter on 12 cover given an injury to Farrell would leave us with Lawrence covering inside centre. I'm not opposed to Lawrence playing 12 in the Manu role but would prefer it to be something planned from the start with cover on the bench as opposed to something done in an emergency mid-match.

Slade having covered 12, 13 and even 15 effectively makes him a pretty valuable bench option. Especially when you add his defensive leadership and huge left boot for tactical kicking.

Versatility is very valuable in a RWC squad and it seems pretty clear that a tight knit group of 30-35 players is what Jones wants to build once again. Daly, Slade and Joseph seem to be viewed as back line players who can cover a lot of positions to a high standard. Marchant potentially another given he's now got exposure on the wing.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 24 Nov 2020, 3:51 pm

Who knows with Jones. Doesnt seem rhyme or reason sometimes. I reckon wales are going to be quite cynical with their windups Saturday if the past few matches are anything to go by. Pat's on heads and Jones getting involved alot. Hope we're ready for that.

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 24 Nov 2020, 3:58 pm

king_carlos wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Looks about right that team KC, would prefer to see Big Joe or Thorley in the 23 in place of one of the centres but can't see that happening.
In terms of development I'd actually like Marchant on the bench. Dropping Joseph would be a tough call though after he's been pretty good since the restart.

Dropping Slade leaves us shorter on 12 cover given an injury to Farrell would leave us with Lawrence covering inside centre. I'm not opposed to Lawrence playing 12 in the Manu role but would prefer it to be something planned from the start with cover on the bench as opposed to something done in an emergency mid-match.

Slade having covered 12, 13 and even 15 effectively makes him a pretty valuable bench option. Especially when you add his defensive leadership and huge left boot for tactical kicking.

Versatility is very valuable in a RWC squad and it seems pretty clear that a tight knit group of 30-35 players is what Jones wants to build once again. Daly, Slade and Joseph seem to be viewed as back line players who can cover a lot of positions to a high standard. Marchant potentially another given he's now got exposure on the wing.

I see the logic behind having Slade on the bench but if any of the back three get injured i'd rather have an actual winger or full back coming on. JJ did ok against Georgia and was admittedly starved of the ball against Ireland but if it's possible he's worse under the high ball than May. It's an obvious flaw in the gameplan having only one player in the back three who can legitimately compete in the air especially when kicking is such a huge part of the gameplan. Watson potentially coming in helps in that regard.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 24 Nov 2020, 4:00 pm

England have only beaten Wales away from Twickenham once (2017) under Jones so I expect they will be targeting this. They are 5 from 5 at Twickenham since Eddie took over though.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 24 Nov 2020, 4:05 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:I see the logic behind having Slade on the bench but if any of the back three get injured i'd rather have an actual winger or full back coming on. JJ did ok against Georgia and was admittedly starved of the ball against Ireland but if it's possible he's worse under the high ball than May. It's an obvious flaw in the gameplan having only one player in the back three who can legitimately compete in the air especially when kicking is such a huge part of the gameplan. Watson potentially coming in helps in that regard.
I'd personally consider Marchant a genuine wing option after his performances there for the Blues. Watson can then cover 15. If Watson isn't fully fit to come back in it's a different story.

Is May weak under the high ball these days? What I've seen of him has been rock solid over the last few years. When he first came into the England side his work under the high ball was poor but no longer in my opinion. I find May's high ball work similar to his kicking. It just looks wrong and malcoordinated somehow but is very effective these days. (Was that meant to read Daly perchance?)

Joseph is OK under the highball I think but his kicking when on the wing is rudimentary. He has a decent short/attacking kicking game from 13 with grubbers, chips, etc to find space but as a tactical kicker from deeper he is weak. Perhaps no weaker than Cokanasiga or Thorley who aren't exceptional there but definitely weaker than Daly, Watson, May or Nowell who are all good in that regard.

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 24 Nov 2020, 4:10 pm

I meant to say Daly not May; the latter is of course now superb under the high ball.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 24 Nov 2020, 4:28 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Who knows with Jones. Doesnt seem rhyme or reason sometimes.  I reckon wales are going to be quite cynical with their windups Saturday if the past few matches are anything to go by. Pat's on heads and Jones getting involved alot. Hope we're ready for that.

Well hopefully, if they resort to that we will be well ahead on the scoreboard...then i would be saying...take a look at the scoreboard mate Wink ...

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Post by Poorfour Tue 24 Nov 2020, 4:51 pm

If Marler is fully fit, I'd expect him to be in the squad. The scrum is almost the only part of the Welsh gameplan that's working at the moment, and both Mako and Genge have weaknesses that Lee could exploit. As long as he keeps his mouth shut and his hands to himself, Marler doesn't.
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Post by majesticimperialman Tue 24 Nov 2020, 4:56 pm

If you look at both team's since the RWC you would think that England should win this game at a canter.

But any one who writes Wales off totally playing against England in wales, could be in for a shock . Wales all ways have one good game in them in any tournament. And they all ways raise their game against England. England by 20. Hope i have not jinx them now.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 24 Nov 2020, 5:44 pm

Poorfour wrote:If Marler is fully fit, I'd expect him to be in the squad. The scrum is almost the only part of the Welsh gameplan that's working at the moment, and both Mako and Genge have weaknesses that Lee could exploit. As long as he keeps his mouth shut and his hands to himself, Marler doesn't.
Genge's weaknesses in the scrum are becoming less and less to be fair. He's always been a destructive scrummager but one capable of giving away penalties looking to dominate at the wrong times. He is getting better and better at choosing when to attack tightheads though. His fringe defence has improved a lot at the same time and his carrying remains strong.

Marler's development and changing strengths over his career have always interested me. He started out as a bullocking carrier who could be dominated at scrum. Over time he has developed into one of the most reliable scrummaging looseheads around and an excellent fringe defender who carries relatively little.

I'd say Marler is still the most consistent scrummager but Genge is improving all the time.

If Sinckler, Mako, Marler and Genge stay fit then England could realistically have 4 of the 5 same props in their 2023 RWC squad as 2019. That's a good place to be for experience and continuity.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 24 Nov 2020, 6:39 pm

Poorfour wrote:If Marler is fully fit, I'd expect him to be in the squad. The scrum is almost the only part of the Welsh gameplan that's working at the moment, and both Mako and Genge have weaknesses that Lee could exploit. As long as he keeps his mouth shut and his hands to himself, Marler doesn't.

The Welsh scrum didn't look that good against Ireland. Quite the opposite to the point where the loosehead got the crook before half time. Genge and Stuart saw off the Georgian props in no short order. I wonder if Genge's significant ball carrying improvement over Marler will be more useful to England than Marler's increasingly smaller gain in scrumming ability.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Tue 24 Nov 2020, 6:56 pm

Times reporting Olly Lawrence out of Wales game after failingto shrug off injury picked up against Ireland.
Dunn released back to Bath so LCD straight into matchday squad.

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Post by Gooseberry Tue 24 Nov 2020, 7:03 pm

BBC has it as a hip injury but regardless makes selections easier for Jones in some respects. Sad for the lad who'd made a good impression, but 13 is not an area England are short on options that can bring something different. Id expect to see JJ there, but could be Slade...and that might all depend on the Ford situation.
Certainly improves Cokasingas chances of a place.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 24 Nov 2020, 7:06 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Times reporting Olly Lawrence out of Wales game after failingto shrug off injury picked up against Ireland.
Dunn released back to Bath so LCD straight into matchday squad.
A shame for Lawrence. His showing against Ireland was much improved. Interesting call in the centre now.

10.Farrell 12.Slade 13.Joseph
10.Ford 12.Farrell 13.Joseph

My guess would be JJ returning to 13 with one of those midfields. I don't think Eddie would pick Ford/Farrell/Slade in the midfield but he's done stranger things.

Wing becomes an interesting call given that Jones likes having one ball carrier in the back three. Perhaps an opening for Thorley or Big Joe.

Part of me would love to see Daly at 13, Watson fullback and Thorley on the wing. Allows Daly to perform the same 'playmaker' role in the wider channels whilst testing his defense at outside centre, Watson at fullback and Thorley against a strong back three. I just don't see it happening though.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 24 Nov 2020, 7:32 pm

From rfu.
England Senior Men

ENGLAND MEN RETAIN 25 PLAYERS FOR

England have retained a 25-player squad for this weekend’s key Autumn Nations Cup tie against Wales.England Senior Men

Eddie Jones’ side will look to make it three tournament wins out of three, when they travel to Parc y Scarlets, Llanelli on Saturday (4pm KO).

Listen to Heinz and Furbank on England Rugby Podcast: O2 Inside LineTest Talk: Inside the bubble

Wales were defeated in their opening game of the tournament when they travelled to Ireland but responded with a win over Georgia at the weekend.

Ollie Lawrence has been rested for the game with a hip issue. 

Wales v England is live on Amazon Prime.

ENGLAND SQUADBACKS

Elliot Daly (Saracens, 45 caps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 86 caps)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 70 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 53 caps)
Max Malins (Bristol Bears, 2 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 59 caps)
Dan Robson (Wasps, 5 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 32 caps)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 44 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 102 caps)

FORWARDS 

Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 24 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 26 caps)
Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 6 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 21 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 52 caps)
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 2 caps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 41 caps)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 67 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 38 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 6 caps)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 20 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 54 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 62 caps)
Jack Willis (Wasps, 1 cap)


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Post by king_carlos Tue 24 Nov 2020, 7:58 pm

So, Malins retained ahead of a specialist wing. He definitely seems rated as a fullback option then.

One of the looseheads and presumably one back row to miss out. I'd be surprised if Willis replaced Earl on the bench but could Jones be looking at a 6-2 bench split perhaps?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 25 Nov 2020, 6:25 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Who knows with Jones. Doesnt seem rhyme or reason sometimes.  I reckon wales are going to be quite cynical with their windups Saturday if the past few matches are anything to go by. Pat's on heads and Jones getting involved alot. Hope we're ready for that.

Well hopefully, if they resort to that we will be well ahead on the scoreboard...then i would be saying...take a look at the scoreboard mate Wink ...

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/nov/24/england-rugby-ollie-lawrence-wales-injury-autumn-nations-cup

As if by magic Mitchell notes it.

Looks as if the Torygraph also half fancy seeing Earl line up at inside centre at points.

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 25 Nov 2020, 7:06 am

king_carlos wrote:So, Malins retained ahead of a specialist wing. He definitely seems rated as a fullback option then.

One of the looseheads and presumably one back row to miss out. I'd be surprised if Willis replaced Earl on the bench but could Jones be looking at a 6-2 bench split perhaps?

Various reporters suggesting a 6-2, but usually that would involve having 4 locks in the 23.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Wed 25 Nov 2020, 8:47 am

Yes maybe Willis and Earls on the bench?

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 25 Nov 2020, 9:28 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Yes maybe Willis and Earls on the bench?

That is the suggestion, but as the main reason to load the bench with forwards is to bring on a whole new front 5 it would defeat that objective. Of course Earl could be deigned to cover the backs too?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 25 Nov 2020, 9:57 am

Crash ball 12. One of these times the bull that Jones' comes out with to distract is going to be true!

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 25 Nov 2020, 10:40 am

king_carlos wrote:
Poorfour wrote:If Marler is fully fit, I'd expect him to be in the squad. The scrum is almost the only part of the Welsh gameplan that's working at the moment, and both Mako and Genge have weaknesses that Lee could exploit. As long as he keeps his mouth shut and his hands to himself, Marler doesn't.
Genge's weaknesses in the scrum are becoming less and less to be fair. He's always been a destructive scrummager but one capable of giving away penalties looking to dominate at the wrong times. He is getting better and better at choosing when to attack tightheads though. His fringe defence has improved a lot at the same time and his carrying remains strong.

Marler's development and changing strengths over his career have always interested me. He started out as a bullocking carrier who could be dominated at scrum. Over time he has developed into one of the most reliable scrummaging looseheads around and an excellent fringe defender who carries relatively little.

I'd say Marler is still the most consistent scrummager but Genge is improving all the time.

If Sinckler, Mako, Marler and Genge stay fit then England could realistically have 4 of the 5 same props in their 2023 RWC squad as 2019. That's a good place to be for experience and continuity.
i think Stuart is rapidly putting himself in that group.

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Post by Gooseberry Wed 25 Nov 2020, 10:45 am

LondonTiger wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Yes maybe Willis and Earls on the bench?

That is the suggestion, but as the main reason to load the bench with forwards is to bring on a whole new front 5 it would defeat that objective. Of course Earl could be deigned to cover the backs too?

Without Lawrence and possibly with Cokasinga left out (Watson May Daly first choices?) its an option that he might get used in that way. Even if its not fully in place of a centre on the field it may be a case of filling in for certain set plays / situations whilst also offering that emergency injury cover.

Theres been lots of talk from Jones about the conditions (open ground/winter) and the type of game you tend to get between the NH rivals and the probability that Wales will want to contest everything in an attempt to disrupt England. So picking a 6/2 split and having a side that can max out its beef for 80 minutes makes sense if thats the sort of game you're expecting. Sure its boring an ruining rugby but it does make sense.

Caveat to all this is that it seems between every recent test England have had at least on back or forward practising with the opposite group seen by the media sparking a frenzy of speculation, and we keep hearing about the 6/2 bench split whilst Jones has rarely used it.

Loads of viable options really.


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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 25 Nov 2020, 12:36 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
Poorfour wrote:If Marler is fully fit, I'd expect him to be in the squad. The scrum is almost the only part of the Welsh gameplan that's working at the moment, and both Mako and Genge have weaknesses that Lee could exploit. As long as he keeps his mouth shut and his hands to himself, Marler doesn't.
Genge's weaknesses in the scrum are becoming less and less to be fair. He's always been a destructive scrummager but one capable of giving away penalties looking to dominate at the wrong times. He is getting better and better at choosing when to attack tightheads though. His fringe defence has improved a lot at the same time and his carrying remains strong.

Marler's development and changing strengths over his career have always interested me. He started out as a bullocking carrier who could be dominated at scrum. Over time he has developed into one of the most reliable scrummaging looseheads around and an excellent fringe defender who carries relatively little.

I'd say Marler is still the most consistent scrummager but Genge is improving all the time.

If Sinckler, Mako, Marler and Genge stay fit then England could realistically have 4 of the 5 same props in their 2023 RWC squad as 2019. That's a good place to be for experience and continuity.
i think Stuart is rapidly putting himself in that group.

I assume Carlos was suggesting that the fifth spot not carried over from the last world cup would be Stuart. Dan Cole heading into his mid thirties certainly won't make the 2023 world cup and Stuart seems to be growing into the role nicely.

I think Obano might push his way into third place loosehead though Marler's ability to cover tighthead in an emergency is beneficial especially in a cup competition. Obano has a good impact ball in hand and like Genge is getting increasingly reliable at the set piece.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 25 Nov 2020, 12:52 pm

Ideally as well we need that younger tighthead putting on some pressure be it Heyes or Painter who appear most likely at present.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 25 Nov 2020, 1:54 pm

I looked at Obano's stats. 5'8'' and 18.5 stone. Bowling ball. (BMI of 39)

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Post by Soul Requiem Wed 25 Nov 2020, 2:15 pm

lostinwales wrote:I looked at Obano's stats. 5'8'' and 18.5 stone. Bowling ball. (BMI of 39)

I think his arms are bigger than my legs.

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 25 Nov 2020, 2:17 pm

Looks like we're desperate for Navidi to start this game, unsurprisingly. Possibly he'll be at 8. I actually have no idea what the starting team will be, but I like to think I have an idea of what the back 3 is (Williams, Adams, Halfpenny).

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Post by majesticimperialman Wed 25 Nov 2020, 2:31 pm

mikey, regards fly half. Biggar to start. Sheedy on the bench. Or would it be Sheedy to start and Biggar off the bench?

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 25 Nov 2020, 2:41 pm

My choice is Sheedy to start. LRZ on the wing too. I imagine Pivac will select Biggar, Halfpenny to start, and Faletau at 8. I would have Biggar and Faletau as impact players, and Halfpenny not in the 23.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 25 Nov 2020, 3:03 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
king_carlos wrote:So, Malins retained ahead of a specialist wing. He definitely seems rated as a fullback option then.

One of the looseheads and presumably one back row to miss out. I'd be surprised if Willis replaced Earl on the bench but could Jones be looking at a 6-2 bench split perhaps?

Various reporters suggesting a 6-2, but usually that would involve having 4 locks in the 23.
1.Vunipola
2.George
3.Sinckler
4.Launchbury
5.Itoje
6.Curry
7.Underhill
8.Vunipola

9.Youngs
10.Ford

11.May
12.Farrell
13.Joseph
14.Watson
15.Daly

16.Cowan-Dickie
17.Genge/Marler
18.Stuart
19.Hill
20.Willis
21.Earl
22.Robson
23.Slade

That's got most basis covered from the bench, an experienced starting XV and plenty of firepower in the forwards. Jones blueprint.

Prior to these games I was interested in seeing Lawrence in Manu's role, Itoje and Launchbury partner each other to see how the lineout ran, a second choice TH emerge, Jonny Hill and Willis at test level, Ollie Thorley on the wing instead of May (to see how we perform without him basically) and Mitchell at scrum-half.

We've seen Lawrence, Stuart emerge, Hill and Willis start tests, Itoje and Launchbury partner each other successfully. Thorley hasn't had much of a run sadly and scrum-half is still Youngs as incumbent with little exposure below. Overall I'll take that.

I know that most are gagging for an out and out fullback but in the absence of a standout option I rate what Daly adds in attack despite wanting to see a player stronger under the high ball emerge before the next RWC. For his flaws at 15 the side has also done well with Daly there. I think he's a better option than Furbank and whilst I rate Malins I'm not sure he adds more defensively (where neither standout) or in attack (where both are very good but Daly has shown it at test level). I've big hopes for both Josh Hodge and Freddie Steward.

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Post by majesticimperialman Wed 25 Nov 2020, 3:10 pm

I would start with Sheedy and Biggar on the bench.
Re Halfpenny? I still think for a long time he as been included more for his kick at goal than his roll at full back.

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Post by Soul Requiem Wed 25 Nov 2020, 3:11 pm

I think we've learned to a degree that beyond the usual suspects at second row that the drop off to Hill and Ewels is pretty big, one of them needs to start nailing down their position in the squad because you'd have to assume that injuries will result in them playing a fair amount. The front row is what it is and it's good to see Stuart do well when required, there seems a surplus of talent at loosehead but tighthead has been a bit of a problem beyond Sinckler for a couple of years; Dunn I don't feel is seen as a legitimate option at hooker hence his lack of minutes. We still don't have any real options beyond Billy at 8, would have been nice to see Dombrandt or T. Hill given a run out at some point, Willis deserved his call up but don't feel as though his inclusion was that vital compared to other options at 6/8.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 25 Nov 2020, 3:39 pm

Soul Requiem wrote: We still don't have any real options beyond Billy at 8, would have been nice to see Dombrandt or T. Hill given a run out at some point, Willis deserved his call up but don't feel as though his inclusion was that vital compared to other options at 6/8.

Agree, at club level you have Dombrandt and Mercer and the other Willis now, Tom is it?
Ive been suggesting Ted HIll move to 8, but theres no real thought, that that will happen. I would like to have seen him get some time this Autumn, but i dont think that will happen now, when Player of the season Willis is barely getting a shot.

It is interesting that Jones would prefer to put one of his trusted soldiers at 8 (Wilson, Curry etc) than look at the new kids on the block.

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Post by Soul Requiem Wed 25 Nov 2020, 3:55 pm

Jones demands so much from his back row that I don't think he wants to try out new players; there seemed to be a reluctance to select Willis let alone someone else. Do Dombrandt and Hill get back to their feet quick enough? For any other team the answer is probably yes but for England I don't think they do so their other skills no longer matter, Earl comes on and he hits the ground running, you can see the desire to be seen to make tackle after tackle. It's probably why he's picked Itoje and Lawes ahead of them at 6.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 25 Nov 2020, 4:49 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote: We still don't have any real options beyond Billy at 8, would have been nice to see Dombrandt or T. Hill given a run out at some point, Willis deserved his call up but don't feel as though his inclusion was that vital compared to other options at 6/8.

Agree, at club level you have Dombrandt and Mercer and the other Willis now, Tom is it?
Ive been suggesting Ted HIll move to 8, but theres no real thought, that that will happen. I would like to have seen him get some time this Autumn, but i dont think that will happen now, when Player of the season Willis is barely getting a shot.

It is interesting that Jones would prefer to put one of his trusted soldiers at 8 (Wilson, Curry etc) than look at the new kids on the block.
I think Ted Hill will become an option at 6. Potentially he's a player who would be paired with Itoje and Lawes at lock rather than Launchbury. Two second rows who are excellent in the kick chase and fringe defence that England rely on. Being skipper at Worcester will help his development I think. He's the nearest we've got as a replacement for Billy's brute strength ball in hand.

I rate Dombrandt but do wonder if his strengths in attack would flourish with how England play. He excels for Quins when they play off 9. His running lines are brutal, as is his turn of pace and handling to put others away. Do England play off 9 enough for that to excel in their game plan? I was glad he was in the initial training squads but understood them sticking with the incumbent Ludlam when all the back rows were available.

Soul Requiem wrote:I think we've learned to a degree that beyond the usual suspects at second row that the drop off to Hill and Ewels is pretty big, one of them needs to start nailing down their position in the squad because you'd have to assume that injuries will result in them playing a fair amount.
I think Hill has promise to offer more around the park than Ewels. The Bath skipper has shown he can run the lineout as close to the standard of Kruis and Lawes as we can hope which could be important if injuries strike.

The combo of Launchbury's hit (can't remember who he flattened?) and Curry's turnover from a kick chase against Ireland was impressive. Whilst I really rate Launchbury (his maul work, handling around contact, support lines and breakdown work are a nice point of difference to Lawes and Kruis) he is a touch slower than most second rows and flankers Jones picks. That was a brilliant kick chase, then ball and all tackle from Launchbury though.

I get the feeling that Kruis will return to the England set-up after his stint in Japan. He may well even make the Lions tour if he's fit for it. He suits what Gatland will need to counter the Bok set-piece.

If I had to guess at where second row is going I'd say similar to fullback. Jones is happy with the incumbent players but if big talents coming out of age grade rugby settle in to senior rugby well they will be looked at rapidly. At fullback I'd predict that could be Hodge or Steward . At second row I'd predict Joel Kpoku with George Martin a couple of years further back in his development. They are both units that can run a lineout and have the engines to keep up with the England defence. They have stood out at age grade in a similar way to Itoje at the same age.

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Post by majesticimperialman Wed 25 Nov 2020, 6:56 pm

When are the teams announced. is it tomorrow? it will be interesting too see who will be in either side/squad.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 25 Nov 2020, 9:44 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:When are the teams announced. is it tomorrow? it will be interesting too see who will be in either side/squad.
Usually Thursday around 11am for a Saturday match.

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Post by Gooseberry Thu 26 Nov 2020, 8:42 am

king_carlos wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:When are the teams announced. is it tomorrow? it will be interesting too see who will be in either side/squad.
Usually Thursday around 11am for a Saturday match.

England team sheet is due to be vetted by Ben Youngs' mum at her coffee morning



On the talk of Englands issue with who their 4th/5th choice locks should be ( imagine if your first choice was AWJs broken ghost) whats Isikwe up to? Feet up watching TV waiting to see if the championship season is going to start or not? Whilst its not a bad thing for the likes of Farrell to be getting a rest from club rugby the second string Sararcens who haven't been loaned out are wasted on that division even if the league does start in January.

Im still surprised to see so many calls for "giving players a go" and disappointment that first choice players haven't been dropped for a rest in a competitive tier one test. Fair enough if theres a genuine issue with a place but parts of this team are already 3 deep with established options. Jones has been quite clear in what he wants from this long sequence of tests, a team thats cohesive and playing together seamlessly by the end of it. He's not going to achieve that by giving everyone a cap to make them feel better.

Its a little different perhaps with the half backs, where some see a bigger issue with the established players form/ability than Jones does. But Jones clearly believes his first choices there are doing a good job that the other options haven't shown in training they can better. Matter of opinion perhaps, but I tend to assume a world class coach who works directly with the players and is the one taking ultimate responsibility for their performances and understands the bigger picture of the team dynamic in ways outsider cant might know better than some guy on the internet.

Getting personally offended over the back row selections I find really odd. There's so many players available who have or could do a good job there , its impossible for them all to play and its not exactly like the options being favoured are doing a bad job. Most of them are still quite new to tests as well, dropping them to give someone else a go isn't going to help build a cohesive first team or clarity. Working with the same players for an extended period this autumn is a unique opportunity for an England coach, Im glad to see Jones taking advantage of it to build a team.

And thats not to say there hasn't been change. This group is radically different to the one that played Wales earlier in the year. Most of that is injury driven of course, but regardless it does highlight that there's a constant natural churn of new players through the England training squads and teams. Opportunities do come and will come again. England have a real strength in depth of quality players at the moment, but that can also bring a problematic revolving door selection policy and temptation to constantly tinker creating uncertainty and too much pressure that one mistake could see someone loose their spot.

Jones wouldve picked a more experimental side for the Barbraians game had that happened since the Wasps and Exeter players wouldnt have been available. He wouldve had a very raw squad for the summer had that happened. How much would the squad now be different off the back of that been its hard to know, but given Jones has scrapped the Saxons altogether it doesnt suggest he puts much stock in second strings teams. I had expected him to use the Italy and Georgia games to tinker more than he did, especially with Fords injury. But hes certainly not going to start tinkering with spots for the sake of making sure theres a new 4th choice with a cap in a position unless theres a genuine problem he thinks that player can fix now.

If they lose to this Wales shambles he should bin the entire team though.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 26 Nov 2020, 8:54 am

I do find the view that Jones is a class coach so you cant question or criticise decisions as we dont have a job in rugby odd tbh. 1 it's a forum to discuss rugby. 2 everyone makes mistakes. 3 as you rightly say it's down to opinion so whereas I may criticise him for picking players because of x y and z you can also acknowledge hes doing it because of a b and c.

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Post by lostinwales Thu 26 Nov 2020, 9:03 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I do find the view that Jones is a class coach so you cant question or criticise decisions as we dont have a job in rugby odd tbh. 1 it's a forum to discuss rugby. 2 everyone makes mistakes. 3 as you rightly say it's down to opinion so whereas I may criticise him for picking players because of x y and z you can also acknowledge hes doing it because of a b and c.

Absolutely. We have a very good team with some very good players who won't get a look in, and it is perfectly natural that we are only all going to agree on a handful of players.

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Post by lostinwales Thu 26 Nov 2020, 9:05 am

Gooseberry wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:When are the teams announced. is it tomorrow? it will be interesting too see who will be in either side/squad.
Usually Thursday around 11am for a Saturday match.

England team sheet is due to be vetted by Ben Youngs' mum at her coffee morning



On the talk of Englands issue with who their 4th/5th choice locks should be ( imagine if your first choice was AWJs broken ghost) whats Isikwe up to? Feet up watching TV waiting to see if the championship season is going to start or not? Whilst its not a bad thing for the likes of Farrell to be getting a rest from club rugby the second string Sararcens who haven't been loaned out are wasted on that division even if the league does start in January.

..


Isiekwe on loan at Saints

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 26 Nov 2020, 9:39 am

Rees-Zammit is apparently being given the nod to start. Helluva back 3 if he starts with Williams and Adams. I think May is the best of back 3 player on display but theres a considerable step down to Daly and Joseph. Malins and Watson probably unlikely to be considered as starter s. Wales announcing their squad at 12, normally england like to wait until the opposition have their team out so it may be delayed from the normal 11am.

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Post by chris_501 Thu 26 Nov 2020, 9:42 am

So it appears Wales will line up -

1.Wyn Jones
2.Elias
3.Lee
4.Ball
5.AW Jones
6.Lewis-Hughes
7.Botham
8.Faletau

9.Lloyd Williams
10.Biggar
11.LRZ
12.Johnny Williams
13.Tompkins/ Watkin
14.Adams
15.Liam Williams

Biggest surprise is Lloyd Williams, but then none of the other scrum halves have impressed. No Wainwirght either after playing so well last week and Elias and Biggar keep their places from the Ireland performance.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 26 Nov 2020, 9:44 am

And for all the strength of the back 3, and as I said above chris I favour the Welsh over the English, that back row has to be a little concerning for Wales?

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Post by RiscaGame Thu 26 Nov 2020, 10:05 am

chris_501 wrote:So it appears Wales will line up -

1.Wyn Jones
2.Elias
3.Lee
4.Ball
5.AW Jones
6.Lewis-Hughes
7.Botham
8.Faletau

9.Lloyd Williams
10.Biggar
11.LRZ
12.Johnny Williams
13.Tompkins/ Watkin
14.Adams
15.Liam Williams

Biggest surprise is Lloyd Williams, but then none of the other scrum halves have impressed. No Wainwirght either after playing so well last week and Elias and Biggar keep their places from the Ireland performance.

Some good, some bad in that team. Not overly chuffed with it.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 26 Nov 2020, 10:10 am

England picked off Ireland's lineout last week. Can anyone honestly say they'd be confident with Elias throwing in? I know Dee had a poor game for the Dragons against Leinster not long ago, but he's been much more consistent than Elias this autumn, including when he came off the bench in Dublin.

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