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England - Summer Tour

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Post by Geordie Thu 25 Mar 2021, 3:25 pm

First topic message reminder :

After an "interesting" 6n...and with the Lions tour possibly going ahead, England have a chance to send a young Saxons side full of talent on the Summer tour to USA and Canada (if Covid permits)

They have 4 games pencilled in...

12th June; England v Barbarians (Suggestions it wont go ahead)

10th July; Scotland v England
17th July; USA v England
24th July; Canada v England

So looking to the future and the AI's who would you take on the tour? Assuming its 32/33 squad size.

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Post by BamBam Fri 28 May 2021, 8:57 am

Please could you / someone post the full interview? I’ve only read the headline, am not a subscriber

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 28 May 2021, 9:05 am

I got the quotes from elsewhere: https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/england-henry-slade-coronavirus-vaccine-24201796

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Post by BamBam Fri 28 May 2021, 9:36 am

Ah cheers

Didn't realise he was diabetic either, fair enough if he doesn't want to have it but not sure what the RFU approach to the situation should be.

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Post by Geordie Fri 28 May 2021, 9:38 am

Can we just ignore Manu this summer please. Focus on other options...

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Post by Geordie Fri 28 May 2021, 9:39 am

Ive had the vaccine, some close pals have refused. People have different views on the whole thing.

If hes being tested 3/4 days a week..theres no issue.

Move on, Next story...

Manu...please no....stick with trialling Lawrence and Odogwu etc etc.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 28 May 2021, 9:42 am

Yeah people have different views on a lot of things. He should be dropped by England and Exeter.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 28 May 2021, 9:43 am

Tuilagi will be with the Lions anyway so won't come into England reckoning I wouldn't have thought.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Fri 28 May 2021, 9:45 am

I've had it, my wife hasn't. It's a choice, I don't knock Slade for that. It's got nothing to do with anyone else if he refuses to have it.

Thankfully we live in free country that allows us to make these choices.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 28 May 2021, 9:46 am

I am sorry but the refusing the vaccine thing is a big deal, and it is surprising given the diabetes that he isn't more aware.

I appreciate there is a risk with any medical treatment but its also about protecting others and I am sure he could have his choice of vaccines if there are any particular concerns over his medical condition and the AZ clot risk.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Fri 28 May 2021, 9:47 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah people have different views on a lot of things. He should be dropped by England and Exeter.

For not having a vaccine? What? Why would he be dropped?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 28 May 2021, 9:47 am

And England are able to decide if thats ok for him to join. I clearly hope he's dropped. Tbf his place must be under threat anyway as he's been underwhelming.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 28 May 2021, 9:49 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I've had it, my wife hasn't. It's a choice, I don't knock Slade for that. It's got nothing to do with anyone else if he refuses to have it.

Thankfully we live in free country that allows us to make these choices.

I really like Slade as a player but I disagree over this.

There will be reasons, occasionally good ones, why people won't get vaccinated but if enough people don't then this bug won't go away. It is as simple as that.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Fri 28 May 2021, 9:49 am

He won't be dropped from any side for not wanting to take it and rightfully so. Since when did we become North Korea?

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Post by Geordie Fri 28 May 2021, 9:52 am

If hes tested 3/4 times theres no issues...and clearly Exeter, Prem Rugby etc have no issues so why should England.

The bigger issue is should he be in the team on performance. Im not so sure.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 28 May 2021, 9:52 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:He won't be dropped from any side for not wanting to take it and rightfully so. Since when did we become North Korea?

It is a fair point but would you respect other players and even teams choosing not to play against a team with him in it because he's more of a covid risk?

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Post by Geordie Fri 28 May 2021, 9:56 am

lostinwales wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:He won't be dropped from any side for not wanting to take it and rightfully so. Since when did we become North Korea?

It is a fair point but would you respect other players and even teams choosing not to play against a team with him in it because he's more of a covid risk?

If players in opposition teams elected not to play thats their right...im sure teams themsevles wont be cancelling games due to it.

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Post by BamBam Fri 28 May 2021, 9:58 am

There's been questions on vaccines to some of the big names in American sports and they have largely been unwilling to say for definite either way. Coming out so vehemently opposed doesn't set the best example, if he'd said nothing and not got vaccinated its easier for the club and RFU to manage it internally

If vaccines become a condition to cross borders in future, do you select a player for England who can only play in home games (ignoring the fact that he's hardly been nailed on in the team by virtue of performances)

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Post by lostinwales Fri 28 May 2021, 10:13 am

As said there are reasons and there are reasons.

But if there are no reasons its a bit like them saying to you, who are getting the vaccine, that they want you to do it to protect their health but that they are not prepared to do the same for you. It's a kind of f**k you attitude that really grates.

It is a free country but that does not mean freedom from all responsibilities.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 28 May 2021, 10:21 am

It's just another thing in the negative column for him. If Tuilagi comes back into selection thoughts by the Autumn and if Lawrence or Odogwu fly in the summer and look composed in attack and defence then Jones will be tempted to see them against higher level opposition. God, on a much wider will never happen Daly may actually look great at OC and be considered there going forward.

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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 28 May 2021, 10:24 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:He won't be dropped from any side for not wanting to take it and rightfully so. Since when did we become North Korea?

Since 127,000+ people died.

I'd fully back England and Exeter dropping him, the wellbeing of the players who have been vaccinated should be prioritised.

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Post by Geordie Fri 28 May 2021, 10:56 am

Lots have died....but i do dispute the 127,000 figure due to the 28 day rule...

And if hes tested 3/4 times a week hes clearly pretty safe anyway

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Post by Gooseberry Fri 28 May 2021, 11:11 am

Getting tested doesnt stop you catching and spreading it, a vaccine massively reduces the risk of both.

Geordie, the excess deaths are greater than the 128,000 figure, the testing wasnt fully in place for the first wave so whilst it is possibly overeporting numbers now (whilst the numbers are very low) its widely accepted that the first wave was massively underreported for deaths in the UK. And certainly globally the death figures are being underreported.

He wouldn't be the first England player to get sidelined for refusing to follow the medical teams directions.

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Post by Geordie Fri 28 May 2021, 11:25 am

Gooseberry wrote:Getting tested doesnt stop you catching and spreading it, a vaccine massively reduces the risk of both.

Geordie, the excess deaths are greater than the 128,000 figure, the testing wasnt fully in place for the first wave so whilst it is possibly overeporting numbers now (whilst the numbers are very low) its widely accepted that the first wave was massively underreported for deaths in the UK. And certainly globally the death figures are being underreported.

He wouldn't be the first England player to get sidelined for refusing to follow the medical teams directions.

Im sorry but i havent seen that substantiated. i understand there have been many...but i still dispute that total. I firmly believe they have been inflated. But we all have our opinions.

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Post by Rugby Fan Fri 28 May 2021, 11:44 am

Soul Requiem wrote:...I'd fully back... Exeter dropping him...

Don't think his club will mind. Exeter have often come across as COVID sceptics, for want of a better term.


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Post by Geordie Fri 28 May 2021, 12:34 pm

Hes named in Exeters team for this weekend...i doubt there'll be issues if Eddie wants to pick him.

As mentioned this wont be the effecting part...its whether he deserves the spot due to performances.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 28 May 2021, 12:49 pm

Outside centre, scrum half, full back; he needs to change them all by the next 6Ns.

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Post by Geordie Fri 28 May 2021, 12:56 pm

Id say Number 8 aswell 7.5

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 28 May 2021, 1:02 pm

I think for 8 and 10 I would like to see changes specifically Dombrandt and Smith but I don't think its as integral as those others.

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Post by BamBam Fri 28 May 2021, 1:36 pm

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-8950065/RFU-insist-England-players-free-make-choice-knee.html

Posted without comment

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 28 May 2021, 7:46 pm

I'm truly shocked there's cross over.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 28 May 2021, 8:41 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm truly shocked there's cross over.

Must admit I was thinking exactly the same.

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Post by Rugby Fan Sat 29 May 2021, 12:22 am

Slade's follow-up statement is a bit better.

https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/latest-news/337575/henry-slade-issues-statement-in-response-to-vaccine-story/

He seems surprised that his comments caused such a fuss, as they "form a very small part of an exclusive interview I had with the newspaper". However, Kate Rowan explained in her piece why she chose to highlight them:

Slade, however, is the first high-profile British sports person to speak publicly of their concerns on vaccination. It is clearly something he wants to say and comes across throughout this interview - the purpose of which was not initially meant to be vaccination. He raises his concerns on vaccination independently in the interview and without any prompting from Telegraph Sport.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2021/05/27/henry-slade-exclusive-not-going-have-covid-vaccine-dont-agree/

She felt he had a bee in his bonnet about vaccines. There are a few at Exeter who have leaned towards conspiracy thinking on COVID-19, so it seems likely Slade hadn't realized the kind of conversations, which might be normal in the club, play very differently with a wider audience.

The initial report gave the impression he's an anti-vaxxer. The new statement portrays his position more like vaccine-hesitant, where he will make decision "when the time comes". While he may well be an anti-vaxxer, the question is now more open. Whether that's enough for his charity work, we'll find out. He is an ambassador for the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation, and a spokeman there has already said they will be reviewing that relationship.

EDIT:

Kate Rowan has issued her own statement. She is unhappy that Slade speaks of comments being "attributed to him". She thinks that makes it sound like she put words into his mouth, which would be unprofessional. She does also condemn the abuse Slade has been getting online. Nevertheless, she is disappointed that neither the player nor the club took the opportunity to speak to her about her story when they had the chance.

https://twitter.com/KateLouiseRowan/status/1398364856437424134

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 29 May 2021, 11:59 am

Didnt see the match last night as id gone to a place called the pub. Strange new thing where they seel alcohol in a public place.

How did the English contingent look, Tuilagi Quirke etc.

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Post by Rugby Fan Sat 29 May 2021, 1:13 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Didnt see the match last night as id gone to a place called the pub. Strange new thing where they seel alcohol in a public place.

How did the English contingent look, Tuilagi Quirke etc.
Twelvetrees managed a clutch penalty. Whenever he has scored a try for England, we have won the match, so maybe this 32 year old fly half and centre option is our future saviour. England - Summer Tour - Page 11 1f618

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Post by lostinwales Sat 29 May 2021, 3:30 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Didnt see the match last night as id gone to a place called the pub. Strange new thing where they seel alcohol in a public place.

How did the English contingent look, Tuilagi Quirke etc.
Twelvetrees managed a clutch penalty. Whenever he has scored a try for England, we have won the match, so maybe this 32 year old fly half and centre option is our future saviour. England - Summer Tour - Page 11 1f618  

32? Feck I'm getting old

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Post by Rugby Fan Sat 29 May 2021, 3:46 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Didnt see the match last night as id gone to a place called the pub. Strange new thing where they seel alcohol in a public place.

How did the English contingent look, Tuilagi Quirke etc.
Twelvetrees managed a clutch penalty. Whenever he has scored a try for England, we have won the match, so maybe this 32 year old fly half and centre option is our future saviour. England - Summer Tour - Page 11 1f618  

32? Feck I'm getting old

Ideally, he should have a testimonial when he is 36.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 29 May 2021, 5:25 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Didnt see the match last night as id gone to a place called the pub. Strange new thing where they seel alcohol in a public place.

How did the English contingent look, Tuilagi Quirke etc.
Twelvetrees managed a clutch penalty. Whenever he has scored a try for England, we have won the match, so maybe this 32 year old fly half and centre option is our future saviour. England - Summer Tour - Page 11 1f618  

32? Feck I'm getting old

Ideally, he should have a testimonial when he is 36.
drumroll

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Post by nlpnlp Sat 29 May 2021, 10:38 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Didnt see the match last night as id gone to a place called the pub. Strange new thing where they seel alcohol in a public place.

How did the English contingent look, Tuilagi Quirke etc.

England contingent - Tuilagi - not in the Sale squad, Quirke on the bench as usual, etc ??? I take it that you know not a lot aboout Sale. Both Curry's played and did well.

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Post by nlpnlp Sat 29 May 2021, 10:41 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
nlpnlp wrote:It is probably academic anyway as Simmonds will almost certainly be on the Lions tour whilst Earl won’t.  Assuming this is the case, I hope England pick a specialist no 8 for the Summer tour which means Dombrandt.  If Curry and Underhill are England’s preferred flankers into the World Cup, Dombrandt seems to give much better balance than Earl or Simmonds.


There is absolutely no chance Simmonds will going on the Lions tour, not a Gatland back row player at all.

Sorry but do you have anything to say right now? ? ?

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Post by nlpnlp Sat 29 May 2021, 10:58 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
nlpnlp wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Another clamour for Simmomds as he breaks the try scoring record for the prem. I'm quite pleased he was picked by Gatland though as I'm still see Dombrandt as the more promising player for England. Of we do move a more offloading and running style he'll be amazing.

I wouldn't say clamour was the correct word - it suggests that those who think Simmonds is a good player are confused.   That seems to be a particularly churlish view on the day that the current European player of the year smashed the Premiership try scoring record with more opportunities to come to add to it.  Along with the fact he has been picked for the Lions ahead of Billy and Dombrandt, would be fairly indisputable evidence for most people that he can play rugby.  However, along with Eddie it seems that whatever he does will not be enough for some.

He has been tried at International level (7 caps - which is more than most get under Jones) and was found wanting against the more physical sides. Picking him would require changing the way we play or somehow building a pack around him........

Was found wanting agauinst which of the teams he got his 7 caps against? I can't see any of those 7 teams were 'more physical' than any other team in Europe but I am happy to hear who they were.

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Post by nlpnlp Sat 29 May 2021, 11:07 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I rate Johnny Hill..it was his first real stint in the squad when they were woeful. I don't want to rule him out just yet I also still want don't want to rule out Nick Isiekwe...and hope he moves back to lock.

There's genuinely multiple options all over the park...

A very good call on Johnny Hill with his Lions call selection. I hope you are equally right on Isekwe although I don't see it.

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Post by king_carlos Sun 30 May 2021, 12:54 am

The Daily Heil (their England rugby stuff is usually strong to be fair) are expecting a youthful squad with a lot of senior players rested.

They think:

- Ford and May will be among the senior players available but rested
- Underhill and Sinckler are potential skippers
- Rodd, Barbeary, Smith and Miles Reid are in line for debuts
- Dan Kelly is apparently 'on the shortlist' for the fixtures so may have to make a choice on his future

Reid would be a surprise but not a completely rogue one. Tom Curry, Mercer and Ted Hill were all capped early after briefly impressing in Premiership rugby. Ben Curry may well have been too when he was picked at the same time as Tom before an injury set back his development. Reid certainly has the characteristics of the flankers England have done well with under Jones. A huge work rate, good on the deck, quick in kick chase and capable of dominant tackles. I'd hope that Ben Curry gets a chance at openside ahead of him but wouldn't be at all upset by Reid being looked at.

They list Barbeary as a hooker which might just be a throwaway bit of writing or perhaps Jones sees his long term future there and wants to see him in the position he excelled at age grade. Picking him at hooker against the USA would feel a risk with Taufete'e and Pifeleti potentially at hooker as well as Lamositele, Paul Mullen and David Ainu'u at prop. Canada don't have the same front row strength, particularly at hooker, though Matt Tierney is a good tighthead who keeps improving and would probably get a lot more recognition playing for a stronger nation.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 30 May 2021, 10:18 am

nlpnlp wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Didnt see the match last night as id gone to a place called the pub. Strange new thing where they seel alcohol in a public place.

How did the English contingent look, Tuilagi Quirke etc.

England contingent - Tuilagi - not in the Sale squad, Quirke on the bench as usual, etc ???  I take it that you know not a lot aboout Sale.  Both Curry's played and did well.

Just didn't watch the game. For instance I know that Tuilagi was on the bench and came on in the second half. Just don't know how he played. Just guessing you didn't watch the game that closely if at all!

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 30 May 2021, 10:49 am

nlpnlp wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
nlpnlp wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Another clamour for Simmomds as he breaks the try scoring record for the prem. I'm quite pleased he was picked by Gatland though as I'm still see Dombrandt as the more promising player for England. Of we do move a more offloading and running style he'll be amazing.

I wouldn't say clamour was the correct word - it suggests that those who think Simmonds is a good player are confused.   That seems to be a particularly churlish view on the day that the current European player of the year smashed the Premiership try scoring record with more opportunities to come to add to it.  Along with the fact he has been picked for the Lions ahead of Billy and Dombrandt, would be fairly indisputable evidence for most people that he can play rugby.  However, along with Eddie it seems that whatever he does will not be enough for some.

He has been tried at International level (7 caps - which is more than most get under Jones) and was found wanting against the more physical sides. Picking him would require changing the way we play or somehow building a pack around him........

Was found wanting agauinst which of the teams he got his 7 caps against?  I can't see any of those 7 teams were 'more physical' than any other team in Europe but I am happy to hear who they were.

If you don't think International rugby is a step up from European rugby that's fine, I would suggest it is. Some players thrive in club rugby but just struggle to make that jump across to the higher level. The way Exeter set up suits Simmonds to a tee, as it has done for previous 8's. Goode is another who shone in the Prem and Europe but struggled when he put the white on....it happens.

If Eddie built a pack around Simmonds, he may well be a raging success (scoring tries, making breaks etc), he most probably won't though.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 30 May 2021, 10:16 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
nlpnlp wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Didnt see the match last night as id gone to a place called the pub. Strange new thing where they seel alcohol in a public place.

How did the English contingent look, Tuilagi Quirke etc.

England contingent - Tuilagi - not in the Sale squad, Quirke on the bench as usual, etc ???  I take it that you know not a lot aboout Sale.  Both Curry's played and did well.

Just didn't watch the game. For instance I know that Tuilagi was on the bench and came on in the second half. Just don't know how he played. Just guessing you didn't watch the game that closely if at all!

Manu looked rusty, powerful and mobile as per usual but having not played for so long not really surprising he lacked his edge. 

Two more games of the season to go plus playoffs which Sale will be involved in. If Manu shows some form over those games it would surprise nobody to see him join up with the squad.

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Post by Geordie Tue 01 Jun 2021, 12:20 pm

Apparently Ben And Tom Curry were very good at the weekend. Their defensive linespeed etc.

I didnt see the game so im just going on reports...but would that suggest Ben should be the 7 for the summer games..?

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 01 Jun 2021, 1:23 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Apparently Ben And Tom Curry were very good at the weekend. Their defensive linespeed etc.

I didnt see the game so im just going on reports...but would that suggest Ben should be the 7 for the summer games..?

Ben's had a pretty hefty injury lay off. I'm not sure he'll just casually wander into the 7 shirt. Underhill and Ludlam are still going to be available and Eddie could be very Eddie and call someone completely left field up.

They had a good combination going at the weekend but that was against Bristol that wanted to throw the ball about so the dual mobile openside routine worked very well. I didn't watch the game particularly intensely but I noticed Tom wearing 6 more than Ben wearing 7. The acid test might be how many minutes he gets post season.

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Post by Geordie Tue 01 Jun 2021, 1:27 pm

is there any benefit in playing Underhill? Or will he pick a core of the 1st team?

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Post by king_carlos Tue 01 Jun 2021, 1:55 pm

The Daily Heil seem to think that Sinckler or Underhill are inline to be skipper. Ford and May were name checked as two of the senior players they think will be rested.

On flankers they've also tipped Miles Reid for a debut. Reid looks a real talent to be fair so that wouldn't upset me if he's looked at even though I feel other opensides are currently ahead of him.

I reckon that Ben Curry will be in the squads, but perhaps playing blindside given Ludlam is in excellent form. Ludlam is a bit of a forgotten man since impressing during the run to the RWC final. He's rediscovered his best form at Saints and offers a lot though given his work over the ball, dominant tackling and pace.

Probable back rows - Underhill, Earl, Ludlam, B Curry, Reid, Dombrandt
Possible back rows - Martin, Barbeary, T Hill

I think Barbeary will make a debut it's just whether that's at hooker or in the back row.

I also think Martin will remain involved it just depends whether Jones uses him as a lock or blindside. With Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Launchbury and Hill all unavailable the locks are massively depleted.

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Post by Geordie Tue 01 Jun 2021, 3:54 pm

Yes, ive seen Miles Reid mentioned a few times.

Ludlum may very well be the starter. He has played well, despite me not giving the credit he deserves for his performances this season.

Barbeary surely cant start at Hooker when (if im right) he hasnt played a single minute there in the prem.


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