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Another tug of war?

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lostinwales
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Post by Highland Shaun Tue 06 Apr 2021, 11:50 pm

First topic message reminder :

https://twitter.com/thistlerugbypod/status/1379496750352842755?s=19

I see England are trying to snatch another player from under our noses :/

Cameron Redpath and Josh Bayliss have been snapped up by us which is pleasing. But we look to have lost out on Fraser Dingwall to England and, at the moment Ben Vellacott isn't committing either way.

I personally would cap him on our summer tour and really hope that the SRU are working on getting him to commit to us as, from Twitter reviews on the above article, he's been excellent for Sale.

How do you peeps see this panning out, am I going to be disappointed and he picks England over us, or will he look at the Cam Redpath situation and decide we are probably the preferred option?

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Post by Cumbrian Mon 12 Apr 2021, 11:37 am

I honestly don't think it should be considered too early to call up Heyes, certainly for what is effectively a Saxons 'tour'. In my opinion he is exactly the type of player this team should include. As Sam has pointed out, he's got 60 plus club caps for Leicester over three seasons already.

Tight head prop is one of those positions where every country (except probably the Springboks) always need more options. I don't think Heyes is as far from a first team call up as some people think either. I always look at it in terms of two injuries. Take out Sinkler and Stuart and who are we down to? A group of solid props who hand-on-heart, wouldn't be miles ahead of Heyes in any case. Why not take a chance to have a look at him?
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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 12 Apr 2021, 12:21 pm

I would certainly. It comes back to that idea of if you end up with a handful of caps it somehow looks bad for England. You can see similarities in Heyes and Hill when he was capped. Tonnes of potential playing well but there's a possibility he falls away. Its only recently when Hill is showing some real ability and consistency again but its possible he will never get another cap. That's always the risk with England whereas its much more likely a Scotland or Wales sticks with a player as there simply isn't the quality replacements queueing up.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 12 Apr 2021, 12:33 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I would certainly. It comes back to that idea of if you end up with a handful of caps it somehow looks bad for England. You can see similarities in Heyes and Hill when he was capped. Tonnes of potential playing well but there's a possibility he falls away. Its only recently when Hill is showing some real ability and consistency again but its possible he will never get another cap. That's always the risk with England whereas its much more likely a Scotland or Wales sticks with a player as there simply isn't the quality replacements queueing up.

The thing is with your theory, you would be forcing the hands of a lot of young players to commit to a country that they might not really have any allegiance to. Perhaps the English clubs and schools should be less eager to go to the other countries to pick up young talented players.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 12 Apr 2021, 12:39 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I would certainly. It comes back to that idea of if you end up with a handful of caps it somehow looks bad for England. You can see similarities in Heyes and Hill when he was capped. Tonnes of potential playing well but there's a possibility he falls away. Its only recently when Hill is showing some real ability and consistency again but its possible he will never get another cap. That's always the risk with England whereas its much more likely a Scotland or Wales sticks with a player as there simply isn't the quality replacements queueing up.

The thing is with your theory, you would be forcing the hands of a lot of young players to commit to a country that they might not really have any allegiance to. Perhaps the English clubs and schools should be less eager to go to the other countries to pick up young talented players.

Absolutely. Look at all those players born and brought up in England and going through the English academy system who end up playing for foreign countries, just because they have a chance of an international career.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 12 Apr 2021, 12:44 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I would certainly. It comes back to that idea of if you end up with a handful of caps it somehow looks bad for England. You can see similarities in Heyes and Hill when he was capped. Tonnes of potential playing well but there's a possibility he falls away. Its only recently when Hill is showing some real ability and consistency again but its possible he will never get another cap. That's always the risk with England whereas its much more likely a Scotland or Wales sticks with a player as there simply isn't the quality replacements queueing up.

The thing is with your theory, you would be forcing the hands of a lot of young players to commit to a country that they might not really have any allegiance to. Perhaps the English clubs and schools should be less eager to go to the other countries to pick up young talented players.

Ve have vays of making you play international matches. Ve vill take names. Seriously though your point is pretty weak.

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 12 Apr 2021, 12:49 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I would certainly. It comes back to that idea of if you end up with a handful of caps it somehow looks bad for England. You can see similarities in Heyes and Hill when he was capped. Tonnes of potential playing well but there's a possibility he falls away. Its only recently when Hill is showing some real ability and consistency again but its possible he will never get another cap. That's always the risk with England whereas its much more likely a Scotland or Wales sticks with a player as there simply isn't the quality replacements queueing up.

The thing is with your theory, you would be forcing the hands of a lot of young players to commit to a country that they might not really have any allegiance to. Perhaps the English clubs and schools should be less eager to go to the other countries to pick up young talented players.

Club rugby is and should be seen as being seperate to international rugby. LRZ for instance may not be the player he is were it not for Gloucester and Wales would be weaker for it, nobody is suggesting players like he be capped for England but rather players like Joe Heyes.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 12 Apr 2021, 12:54 pm

I'd hold my hands up and say if Rees-Zammit had been available I'd have loved for him to play for us. He has never lived in England and neither does he have any English direct relatives though.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 12 Apr 2021, 2:01 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I would certainly. It comes back to that idea of if you end up with a handful of caps it somehow looks bad for England. You can see similarities in Heyes and Hill when he was capped. Tonnes of potential playing well but there's a possibility he falls away. Its only recently when Hill is showing some real ability and consistency again but its possible he will never get another cap. That's always the risk with England whereas its much more likely a Scotland or Wales sticks with a player as there simply isn't the quality replacements queueing up.

The thing is with your theory, you would be forcing the hands of a lot of young players to commit to a country that they might not really have any allegiance to. Perhaps the English clubs and schools should be less eager to go to the other countries to pick up young talented players.

Club rugby is and should be seen as being seperate to international rugby. LRZ for instance may not be the player he is were it not for Gloucester and Wales would be weaker for it, nobody is suggesting players like he be capped for England but rather players like Joe Heyes.

I agree, and I have no problems with the clubs doing it. But you cannot have it both ways.

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 12 Apr 2021, 2:19 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I would certainly. It comes back to that idea of if you end up with a handful of caps it somehow looks bad for England. You can see similarities in Heyes and Hill when he was capped. Tonnes of potential playing well but there's a possibility he falls away. Its only recently when Hill is showing some real ability and consistency again but its possible he will never get another cap. That's always the risk with England whereas its much more likely a Scotland or Wales sticks with a player as there simply isn't the quality replacements queueing up.

The thing is with your theory, you would be forcing the hands of a lot of young players to commit to a country that they might not really have any allegiance to. Perhaps the English clubs and schools should be less eager to go to the other countries to pick up young talented players.

Club rugby is and should be seen as being seperate to international rugby. LRZ for instance may not be the player he is were it not for Gloucester and Wales would be weaker for it, nobody is suggesting players like he be capped for England but rather players like Joe Heyes.

I agree, and I have no problems with the clubs doing it. But you cannot have it both ways.

I don't really know what you mean by both ways?

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Post by lostinwales Mon 12 Apr 2021, 2:21 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I would certainly. It comes back to that idea of if you end up with a handful of caps it somehow looks bad for England. You can see similarities in Heyes and Hill when he was capped. Tonnes of potential playing well but there's a possibility he falls away. Its only recently when Hill is showing some real ability and consistency again but its possible he will never get another cap. That's always the risk with England whereas its much more likely a Scotland or Wales sticks with a player as there simply isn't the quality replacements queueing up.

The thing is with your theory, you would be forcing the hands of a lot of young players to commit to a country that they might not really have any allegiance to. Perhaps the English clubs and schools should be less eager to go to the other countries to pick up young talented players.

Club rugby is and should be seen as being seperate to international rugby. LRZ for instance may not be the player he is were it not for Gloucester and Wales would be weaker for it, nobody is suggesting players like he be capped for England but rather players like Joe Heyes.

I agree, and I have no problems with the clubs doing it. But you cannot have it both ways.

I don't really know what you mean by both ways?

I think he means that it is fair that a player like Nick Tompkins, with all his close ties to Wales, should be allowed to go play for Wales, but that it should not be allowed for a Welsh player to make a career playing for England.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 12 Apr 2021, 3:09 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I would certainly. It comes back to that idea of if you end up with a handful of caps it somehow looks bad for England. You can see similarities in Heyes and Hill when he was capped. Tonnes of potential playing well but there's a possibility he falls away. Its only recently when Hill is showing some real ability and consistency again but its possible he will never get another cap. That's always the risk with England whereas its much more likely a Scotland or Wales sticks with a player as there simply isn't the quality replacements queueing up.

The thing is with your theory, you would be forcing the hands of a lot of young players to commit to a country that they might not really have any allegiance to. Perhaps the English clubs and schools should be less eager to go to the other countries to pick up young talented players.

Club rugby is and should be seen as being seperate to international rugby. LRZ for instance may not be the player he is were it not for Gloucester and Wales would be weaker for it, nobody is suggesting players like he be capped for England but rather players like Joe Heyes.

I agree, and I have no problems with the clubs doing it. But you cannot have it both ways.

I don't really know what you mean by both ways?

I think he means that it is fair that a player like Nick Tompkins, with all his close ties to Wales, should be allowed to go play for Wales, but that it should not be allowed for a Welsh player to make a career playing for England.

No that is not what I mean, and you know it. Seriously, please do not spoil the debate.

I do not begrudge English clubs and schools picking up young Welsh talent, but I also do not think they should be just capped after their residency has been completed to stop them playing for Wales, or any other nation, which is what No 7 &1/2 is alluding to.

Thats all. OK

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Post by BamBam Mon 12 Apr 2021, 3:20 pm

Which "young Welsh talent" have England capped? 7.5 is talking about Joe Heyes - certainly not Welsh

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 12 Apr 2021, 3:23 pm

Tbf bam its not me alluding to anything either. I e been quite open that England need to be far better at identifying dual or multi qualified players and capping them.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 12 Apr 2021, 3:32 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Tbf bam its not me alluding to anything either. I e been quite open that England need to be far better at identifying dual or multi qualified players and capping them.

Well what would you call it then ?

By this very sentence you are alluding to England handing out caps to dual qualified players, so what are you trying to defend ?


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Post by The Oracle Mon 12 Apr 2021, 3:35 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Tbf bam its not me alluding to anything either. I e been quite open that England need to be far better at identifying dual or multi qualified players and capping them.

Well what would you call it then ?

By this very sentence you are alluding to England handing out caps to dual qualified players, so what are you trying to defend ?


He’s saying they need to be better at it because they don’t do it much whereas nations like Wales and Scotland do and so England often miss out on players who were brought up in England.
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Post by LordDowlais Mon 12 Apr 2021, 3:35 pm

BamBam wrote:Which "young Welsh talent" have England capped? 7.5 is talking about Joe Heyes - certainly not Welsh

None, and I never said they have.

7.5 is alluding to the RFU identifying dual qualified players, and capping them, there are a lot of good young Welsh talent playing in England for over three years, I would hate to see them capped by England to tie them to said country.


Last edited by RiscaGame on Mon 12 Apr 2021, 4:24 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Pointless hinting at behaviours.)

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 12 Apr 2021, 3:35 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Tbf bam its not me alluding to anything either. I e been quite open that England need to be far better at identifying dual or multi qualified players and capping them.

Well what would you call it then ?

By this very sentence you are alluding to England handing out caps to dual qualified players, so what are you trying to defend ?


I could be wrong here but I do believe that No 7&1/2 means capping dual qualified players who are ultimately English like Tompkins and Heyes.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 12 Apr 2021, 3:43 pm

The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Tbf bam its not me alluding to anything either. I e been quite open that England need to be far better at identifying dual or multi qualified players and capping them.

Well what would you call it then ?

By this very sentence you are alluding to England handing out caps to dual qualified players, so what are you trying to defend ?


He’s saying they need to be better at it because they don’t do it much whereas nations like Wales and Scotland do and so England often miss out on players who were brought up in England.

I'm also not alluding. Alluding is to hint. I'm saying England need to be actively identifying people who qualify for more than England and to be capping players with potential to tie them to England and prevent them from playing for other countries. Its not a gotcha moment here inmve been very open to that for years!

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 12 Apr 2021, 3:45 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Tbf bam its not me alluding to anything either. I e been quite open that England need to be far better at identifying dual or multi qualified players and capping them.

Well what would you call it then ?

By this very sentence you are alluding to England handing out caps to dual qualified players, so what are you trying to defend ?


I could be wrong here but I do believe that No 7&1/2 means capping dual qualified players who are ultimately English like Tompkins and Heyes.

Well if that is what he means, then fair enough, but he should stipulate that, all I see is capping dual qualified players, and he openly admitted he would have loved for the RFU to cap LRZ, who is not ultimately English. OK

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 12 Apr 2021, 3:45 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Tbf bam its not me alluding to anything either. I e been quite open that England need to be far better at identifying dual or multi qualified players and capping them.

Well what would you call it then ?

By this very sentence you are alluding to England handing out caps to dual qualified players, so what are you trying to defend ?


I could be wrong here but I do believe that No 7&1/2 means capping dual qualified players who are ultimately English like Tompkins and Heyes.

Yup absolutely. And others who have the potential to go onto to be good international players. There have been a few time recently where it seems to have been a surprise that other countries have come in and capped players. We should not be at that stage in a professional environment.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 12 Apr 2021, 3:47 pm

The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Tbf bam its not me alluding to anything either. I e been quite open that England need to be far better at identifying dual or multi qualified players and capping them.

Well what would you call it then ?

By this very sentence you are alluding to England handing out caps to dual qualified players, so what are you trying to defend ?


He’s saying they need to be better at it because they don’t do it much whereas nations like Wales and Scotland do and so England often miss out on players who were brought up in England.

No he isn't.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 12 Apr 2021, 3:47 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Tbf bam its not me alluding to anything either. I e been quite open that England need to be far better at identifying dual or multi qualified players and capping them.

Well what would you call it then ?

By this very sentence you are alluding to England handing out caps to dual qualified players, so what are you trying to defend ?


I could be wrong here but I do believe that No 7&1/2 means capping dual qualified players who are ultimately English like Tompkins and Heyes.

Well if that is what he means, then fair enough, but he should stipulate that, all I see is capping dual qualified players, and he openly admitted he would have loved for the RFU to cap LRZ, who is not ultimately English. OK

And was never even 1 step along to being qualified.

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Post by The Oracle Mon 12 Apr 2021, 3:48 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Tbf bam its not me alluding to anything either. I e been quite open that England need to be far better at identifying dual or multi qualified players and capping them.

Well what would you call it then ?

By this very sentence you are alluding to England handing out caps to dual qualified players, so what are you trying to defend ?


He’s saying they need to be better at it because they don’t do it much whereas nations like Wales and Scotland do and so England often miss out on players who were brought up in England.

I'm also not alluding. Alluding is to hint. I'm saying England need to be actively identifying people who qualify for more than England and to be capping players with potential to tie them to England and prevent them from playing for other countries. Its not a gotcha moment here inmve been very open to that for years!

I think you may be quoting my in error, 7.5! I agree with you! I did not say ‘alluding’!
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Post by The Oracle Mon 12 Apr 2021, 3:48 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Tbf bam its not me alluding to anything either. I e been quite open that England need to be far better at identifying dual or multi qualified players and capping them.

Well what would you call it then ?

By this very sentence you are alluding to England handing out caps to dual qualified players, so what are you trying to defend ?


He’s saying they need to be better at it because they don’t do it much whereas nations like Wales and Scotland do and so England often miss out on players who were brought up in England.

No he isn't.

Oh yes he is!
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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 12 Apr 2021, 3:50 pm

The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Tbf bam its not me alluding to anything either. I e been quite open that England need to be far better at identifying dual or multi qualified players and capping them.

Well what would you call it then ?

By this very sentence you are alluding to England handing out caps to dual qualified players, so what are you trying to defend ?


He’s saying they need to be better at it because they don’t do it much whereas nations like Wales and Scotland do and so England often miss out on players who were brought up in England.

I'm also not alluding. Alluding is to hint. I'm saying England need to be actively identifying people who qualify for more than England and to be capping players with potential to tie them to England and prevent them from playing for other countries. Its not a gotcha moment here inmve been very open to that for years!

I think you may be quoting my in error, 7.5! I agree with you! I did not say ‘alluding’!

Quite right. Sorry!

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Post by Rugby Fan Mon 12 Apr 2021, 3:50 pm

JB on the Eggchasers podcast argues England have been predatory, while his two co-hosts disagree.

I can't see it myself. While Jones has called a few wild card dual-qualified players into his training squads, more often than not, they haven't been capped. If his true intention was to capture these players, and deny them to other nations, then he could have done so.

While there are a few dual qualified players who have received only a handful of caps under Jones, it's unlikely anyone thinks Teimana Harrison, Brad Shields, Willi Heinz, Denny Solomona and Joe Cokanasiga were selected on anything other than merit. Their careers didn't build to more through age, loss of form and injury.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 12 Apr 2021, 3:50 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Tbf bam its not me alluding to anything either. I e been quite open that England need to be far better at identifying dual or multi qualified players and capping them.

Well what would you call it then ?

By this very sentence you are alluding to England handing out caps to dual qualified players, so what are you trying to defend ?


I could be wrong here but I do believe that No 7&1/2 means capping dual qualified players who are ultimately English like Tompkins and Heyes.

Well if that is what he means, then fair enough, but he should stipulate that, all I see is capping dual qualified players, and he openly admitted he would have loved for the RFU to cap LRZ, who is not ultimately English. OK

And was never even 1 step along to being qualified.

He was two years into his residency when Eddie Jones approached him. OK

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 12 Apr 2021, 3:53 pm

The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Tbf bam its not me alluding to anything either. I e been quite open that England need to be far better at identifying dual or multi qualified players and capping them.

Well what would you call it then ?

By this very sentence you are alluding to England handing out caps to dual qualified players, so what are you trying to defend ?


He’s saying they need to be better at it because they don’t do it much whereas nations like Wales and Scotland do and so England often miss out on players who were brought up in England.

No he isn't.

Oh yes he is!

No he isnt, he is saying that the RFU need to identify and cap the best dual qualified players, read what he is saying, he has even admitted it. But here you are trying to find another way to argue with me, again. Rolling Eyes

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Post by The Oracle Mon 12 Apr 2021, 3:55 pm


Rugby Fan wrote:JB on the Eggchasers podcast argues England have been predatory, while his two co-hosts disagree.

I can't see it myself. While Jones has called a few wild card dual-qualified players into his training squads, more often than not, they haven't been capped. If his true intention was to capture these players, and deny them to other nations, then he could have done so.

While there are a few dual qualified players who have received only a handful of caps under Jones, it's unlikely anyone thinks Teimana Harrison, Brad Shields, Willi Heinz, Denny Solomona and Joe Cokanasiga were selected on anything other than merit. Their careers didn't build to more through age, loss of form and injury.

I agree with this. people will bang on about the number of Welsh players enticed over to England for schooling, bursaries, academies, etc. But they can never name one that has been capped. So I don’t feel England has a reputation for capping dual qualified players. Not from our (Welsh) point of view anyway. For Welsh exiles they seem to either end up getting capped by Wales, coming home or not being capped by anyone.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 12 Apr 2021, 3:58 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Tbf bam its not me alluding to anything either. I e been quite open that England need to be far better at identifying dual or multi qualified players and capping them.

Well what would you call it then ?

By this very sentence you are alluding to England handing out caps to dual qualified players, so what are you trying to defend ?


I could be wrong here but I do believe that No 7&1/2 means capping dual qualified players who are ultimately English like Tompkins and Heyes.

Well if that is what he means, then fair enough, but he should stipulate that, all I see is capping dual qualified players, and he openly admitted he would have loved for the RFU to cap LRZ, who is not ultimately English. OK

And was never even 1 step along to being qualified.

He was two years into his residency when Eddie Jones approached him. OK

He never lived in England. Jones did approach him though. Backs up my point that the rfu really don't have a good system/simple research to confirm players.

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Post by The Oracle Mon 12 Apr 2021, 3:59 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Tbf bam its not me alluding to anything either. I e been quite open that England need to be far better at identifying dual or multi qualified players and capping them.

Well what would you call it then ?

By this very sentence you are alluding to England handing out caps to dual qualified players, so what are you trying to defend ?


He’s saying they need to be better at it because they don’t do it much whereas nations like Wales and Scotland do and so England often miss out on players who were brought up in England.

No he isn't.

Oh yes he is!

No he isnt, he is saying that the RFU need to identify and cap the best dual qualified players, read what he is saying, he has even admitted it. But here you are trying to find another way to argue with me, again. Rolling Eyes

Yes, he’s saying they need to do it because they currently don’t do much of it. Other nations are doing it but not them (as much) and they’re missing out. Look at all of the Wales caps who were born or brought up in England. We’ve been quick to exploit the parent and grandparent rule. Now, name the Welsh players capped by England. Write a list for us. You’ll struggle. The likes of Rowlands, Tompkins, etc. could have been capped by England to tie them down but they didn’t even though they knew it was likely they would be snapped up by Wales.


Last edited by The Oracle on Mon 12 Apr 2021, 4:01 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by LordDowlais Mon 12 Apr 2021, 3:59 pm

The Oracle wrote: Doh
Rugby Fan wrote:JB on the Eggchasers podcast argues England have been predatory, while his two co-hosts disagree.

I can't see it myself. While Jones has called a few wild card dual-qualified players into his training squads, more often than not, they haven't been capped. If his true intention was to capture these players, and deny them to other nations, then he could have done so.

While there are a few dual qualified players who have received only a handful of caps under Jones, it's unlikely anyone thinks Teimana Harrison, Brad Shields, Willi Heinz, Denny Solomona and Joe Cokanasiga were selected on anything other than merit. Their careers didn't build to more through age, loss of form and injury.

I agree with this. people will bang on about the number of Welsh players enticed over to England for schooling, bursaries, academies, etc. But they can never name one that has been capped. So I don’t feel England has a reputation for capping dual qualified players. Not from our (Welsh) point of view anyway. For Welsh exiles they seem to either end up getting capped by Wales, coming home or not being capped by anyone.

Yes I agree. England do not cap any of the kids that go through their system. I do not know whether they try either, although if reports are to be believed they did try and entice LRZ. It does not take the fear away for me though, it could be argued it happened with the Vunipola's.  

Also, I am very grateful for the opportunities the young Welsh kids are given by the schools and academies in England, it's something that we in Wales seriously fail at. Something perhaps the WRU could look at with the extra money they are getting.


Last edited by LordDowlais on Mon 12 Apr 2021, 4:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 12 Apr 2021, 4:00 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Tbf bam its not me alluding to anything either. I e been quite open that England need to be far better at identifying dual or multi qualified players and capping them.

Well what would you call it then ?

By this very sentence you are alluding to England handing out caps to dual qualified players, so what are you trying to defend ?


He’s saying they need to be better at it because they don’t do it much whereas nations like Wales and Scotland do and so England often miss out on players who were brought up in England.

No he isn't.

Oh yes he is!

No he isnt, he is saying that the RFU need to identify and cap the best dual qualified players, read what he is saying, he has even admitted it. But here you are trying to find another way to argue with me, again. Rolling Eyes

I mean, its the same thing in the end. Identify players who are dual tripled etc qualified and cap them if they are good or have potential. Too many times we're blind to it.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 12 Apr 2021, 4:01 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Tbf bam its not me alluding to anything either. I e been quite open that England need to be far better at identifying dual or multi qualified players and capping them.

Well what would you call it then ?

By this very sentence you are alluding to England handing out caps to dual qualified players, so what are you trying to defend ?


He’s saying they need to be better at it because they don’t do it much whereas nations like Wales and Scotland do and so England often miss out on players who were brought up in England.

No he isn't.

Oh yes he is!

No he isnt, he is saying that the RFU need to identify and cap the best dual qualified players, read what he is saying, he has even admitted it. But here you are trying to find another way to argue with me, again. Rolling Eyes

I mean, its the same thing in the end. Identify players who are dual tripled etc qualified and cap them if they are good or have potential. Too many times we're blind to it.

It could deter any decent Welsh kids signing for clubs in England.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 12 Apr 2021, 4:04 pm

The Oracle wrote: Now, name the Welsh players capped by England.

Mat Protheroe. Very Happy

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Post by The Oracle Mon 12 Apr 2021, 4:09 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote: Doh
Rugby Fan wrote:JB on the Eggchasers podcast argues England have been predatory, while his two co-hosts disagree.

I can't see it myself. While Jones has called a few wild card dual-qualified players into his training squads, more often than not, they haven't been capped. If his true intention was to capture these players, and deny them to other nations, then he could have done so.

While there are a few dual qualified players who have received only a handful of caps under Jones, it's unlikely anyone thinks Teimana Harrison, Brad Shields, Willi Heinz, Denny Solomona and Joe Cokanasiga were selected on anything other than merit. Their careers didn't build to more through age, loss of form and injury.

I agree with this. people will bang on about the number of Welsh players enticed over to England for schooling, bursaries, academies, etc. But they can never name one that has been capped. So I don’t feel England has a reputation for capping dual qualified players. Not from our (Welsh) point of view anyway. For Welsh exiles they seem to either end up getting capped by Wales, coming home or not being capped by anyone.

Yes I agree. England do not cap any of the kids that go through their system. I do not know whether they try either, although if reports are to be believed they did try and entice LRZ. It does not take the fear away for me though, it could be argued it happened with the Vunipola's.  

Also, I am very grateful for the opportunities the young Welsh kids are given by the schools and academies in England, it's something that we in Wales seriously fail at. Something perhaps the WRU could look at with the extra money they are getting.

I can agree on one thing - the same schooling opportunities are not there in Wales. There are very few prestigious schools with that same sort of sporting offer as some of the best fee paying schools in England. These players don’t just go for the rugby but for the education and opportunities they can get from being linked to that school. The WRU can’t really do that. They don’t have a remit for education or a budget needed to start up prestigious schools. But if we had more schools that could compete in the same way then I’m sure fewer lads would leave as they wouldn’t need to. If my son was good enough to get a scholarship at somewhere like Millfield then I would be trying to get him in. I wouldn’t need to wait for a scout to spot him. I’d be making enquiries myself, and that’s what a lot of parents do. It’s not always based on being talent spotted. If something similar was available locally then I’d consider that too. Sure there are some good fee paying schools in Wales but nowhere near the same level in terms of volume and prestige as in England.
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Post by The Oracle Mon 12 Apr 2021, 4:11 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote: Now, name the Welsh players capped by England.

Mat Protheroe. Very Happy

Not tied to England and currently plays for the Ospreys! Terrible example! Could Wales cap him tomorrow - yes!
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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 12 Apr 2021, 4:12 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Tbf bam its not me alluding to anything either. I e been quite open that England need to be far better at identifying dual or multi qualified players and capping them.

Well what would you call it then ?

By this very sentence you are alluding to England handing out caps to dual qualified players, so what are you trying to defend ?


He’s saying they need to be better at it because they don’t do it much whereas nations like Wales and Scotland do and so England often miss out on players who were brought up in England.

No he isn't.

Oh yes he is!

No he isnt, he is saying that the RFU need to identify and cap the best dual qualified players, read what he is saying, he has even admitted it. But here you are trying to find another way to argue with me, again. Rolling Eyes

I mean, its the same thing in the end. Identify players who are dual tripled etc qualified and cap them if they are good or have potential. Too many times we're blind to it.

It could deter any decent Welsh kids signing for clubs in England.

I cant see why it would.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 12 Apr 2021, 4:19 pm

The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote: Now, name the Welsh players capped by England.

Mat Protheroe. Very Happy

Not tied to England and currently plays for the Ospreys! Terrible example! Could Wales cap him tomorrow - yes!

What about the Vunipola's it could be argued we lost them.


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Post by The Oracle Mon 12 Apr 2021, 4:21 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote: Now, name the Welsh players capped by England.

Mat Protheroe. Very Happy

Not tied to England and currently plays for the Ospreys! Terrible example! Could Wales cap him tomorrow - yes!

What about the Vunipola's it could be argued we lost them.


Maybe, but you could argue that Tonga lost them too I suppose so I’m not sure we can really claim them as ours! Just two boys passing through!
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Post by The Oracle Mon 12 Apr 2021, 4:22 pm

Sorry, not Tonga - just remembered where they were born. But you get my drift.
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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 12 Apr 2021, 4:29 pm

The Vunipola's are a messy situation and had they chosen to represent Wales I don't think you could argue too much about it especially in Mako's case. Faletau rightfully plays for Wales but again could have played for Tonga, sometimes a player can legitimately play for multiple countries. Three year residency and the grandparent rule however were/are ridiculous, even with Ben Te'o his mum is English but shouldn't have been playing for England.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 12 Apr 2021, 4:33 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:The Vunipola's are a messy situation and had they chosen to represent Wales I don't think you could argue too much about it especially in Mako's case. Faletau rightfully plays for Wales but again could have played for Tonga, sometimes a player can legitimately play for multiple countries. Three year residency and the grandparent rule however were/are ridiculous, even with Ben Te'o his mum is English but shouldn't have been playing for England.

He was going to play for Ireland at one point wasn't he ?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 12 Apr 2021, 4:45 pm

It was mentioned. He never qualified for them. Bit similar to Ben Morgan and Wales. More high profile and got offers.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 12 Apr 2021, 7:42 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:The Vunipola's are a messy situation and had they chosen to represent Wales I don't think you could argue too much about it especially in Mako's case. Faletau rightfully plays for Wales but again could have played for Tonga, sometimes a player can legitimately play for multiple countries. Three year residency and the grandparent rule however were/are ridiculous, even with Ben Te'o his mum is English but shouldn't have been playing for England.

Why not?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 12 Apr 2021, 8:13 pm

Brad Thorn effect I'd imagine.

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 12 Apr 2021, 8:42 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:The Vunipola's are a messy situation and had they chosen to represent Wales I don't think you could argue too much about it especially in Mako's case. Faletau rightfully plays for Wales but again could have played for Tonga, sometimes a player can legitimately play for multiple countries. Three year residency and the grandparent rule however were/are ridiculous, even with Ben Te'o his mum is English but shouldn't have been playing for England.

Why not?

Played for Samoa in league, not a fan of cross code players playing for different countries.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 12 Apr 2021, 10:12 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:The Vunipola's are a messy situation and had they chosen to represent Wales I don't think you could argue too much about it especially in Mako's case. Faletau rightfully plays for Wales but again could have played for Tonga, sometimes a player can legitimately play for multiple countries. Three year residency and the grandparent rule however were/are ridiculous, even with Ben Te'o his mum is English but shouldn't have been playing for England.

Why not?

Played for Samoa in league, not a fan of cross code players playing for different countries.

Fair enough

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Post by Rugby Fan Mon 12 Apr 2021, 11:23 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:The Vunipola's are a messy situation and had they chosen to represent Wales I don't think you could argue too much about it especially in Mako's case. Faletau rightfully plays for Wales but again could have played for Tonga, sometimes a player can legitimately play for multiple countries. Three year residency and the grandparent rule however were/are ridiculous, even with Ben Te'o his mum is English but shouldn't have been playing for England.

Why not?

Played for Samoa in league, not a fan of cross code players playing for different countries.

Same with Denny Solomona. Years before, England selected Lesley Vainikolo, who had played League for New Zealand. That was never my favourite selection, because it kept Sinbad out of the squad.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 13 Apr 2021, 10:44 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:The Vunipola's are a messy situation and had they chosen to represent Wales I don't think you could argue too much about it especially in Mako's case. Faletau rightfully plays for Wales but again could have played for Tonga, sometimes a player can legitimately play for multiple countries. Three year residency and the grandparent rule however were/are ridiculous, even with Ben Te'o his mum is English but shouldn't have been playing for England.

Why not?

Played for Samoa in league, not a fan of cross code players playing for different countries.

Same with Denny Solomona. Years before, England selected Lesley Vainikolo, who had played League for New Zealand. That was never my favourite selection, because it kept Sinbad out of the squad.

Vainikolo was a dud at international level. People were just excited about his size because 'Lomu'. Solomona got his chance too late and with too much competition so there was no chance to work on his weak areas (defence) but is a lovely runner. Teo is a poor man's Tuilagi but did go on a Lions tour.

Worth also mentioning Flutey, Henry Paul and Shontayne Hape. Flutey was, briefly, very good. Paul wasn't. Hape was average but did fill a position we seem to have a lot of trouble with. He has also suffered very badly from concussions.

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