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'better for everyone. The SA teams will mean bigger, tougher games'

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Post by profitius Sun 30 May 2021, 12:25 pm

First topic message reminder :

Interesting article here.
https://www.the42.ie/south-africa-pro16-5451128-May2021/


Its from a SA point of view but there was also this line: There is hope that the Pro16 could double or treble its turnover in the next six or seven years.


More competition, tougher games, big name players and teams with big fan bases, a straight forward league instead of conferences, better refs (hopefully). Sounds good to me. If Benetton get up to speed it would boost Italian interest too.


I also heard that it won't be called the pro16. Its going to get a new name.
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Post by PhilBB Wed 30 Jun 2021, 3:33 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:

The simple answer Phil is that there isn't enough money or support to sustain a proper second division.
The French have some pretty big names in D2 - USAP, Biarritz, Oyonnax, which the Championship doesn't have, the biggest name in the Championship is whichever Premiership team has been relegated that season, who also are likely to win everything, so it's not that competitive.
Also the clubs that might think about chasing promotion - Ealing, Jersey, Pirates, Doncaster are wary of the arbitrary rules about "ground standards" that seem to apply to them but not relegated Premiership teams, or the costs of even trying to be competitive in the Premiership.

I disagree with that. I believe a proper second tier would attract a broadcast partner that would deliver "a proper second division".

If you want "big names" in the second tier then the simple answer is to make the top tier just 10 teams and ensure the four Welsh are involved. That way you'll have two competitive 10-team divisions, with 2 up, 2 down.

I agree with you on the entry criteria set by PRL. That needs to be reviewed and, I believe, is being reviewed.

Of course, none of the above will happen as the PRL group is too strong, the WRU too pathetic and the Championship clubs too weak. So, in the end, all suffer because they are incapable of working with each together to become collectively stronger.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 30 Jun 2021, 3:36 pm

'If you want "big names" in the second tier then the simple answer is to make the top tier just 10 teams and ensure the four Welsh are involved. '

Ah, of course.

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Post by PhilBB Wed 30 Jun 2021, 3:43 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:'If you want "big names" in the second tier then the simple answer is to make the top tier just 10 teams and ensure the four Welsh are involved. '

Ah, of course.

Because the Mickey Mouse little clubs in the Championship have an economic barrier to entry.

Simple reasoning you again missed
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Post by PhilBB Wed 30 Jun 2021, 3:45 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Championship is great. Its fun. Why talk down the league simply because you want it replaced with Welsh teams?

What specifically is your problem with the league?

I'm often lost between which are your attempted wind up posts and which posts host your genuine opinion.

In this case, you seem unaware of the issues the Championship has with itself. Hey ho, I'm not surprised.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 30 Jun 2021, 3:57 pm

Mickey Mouse. Ouch. Here was me thinking you were worried about the Coventrys of the world. I'm sure they'd love the underperforming Welsh parachuted into the top league and (on league positions) then be bounced to the 3rd. I never attempt to wum, but I do find it amusing that one of your main aims is to simply find a way for Cardiff to be anything more than also rans.

It's also pie in the sky to imply that finances would increase in the second division simply because Cardiff will be there.

What specifically is your problem with the league?

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Post by Welshmushroom Wed 30 Jun 2021, 6:07 pm

To me the Pro14 is a credible league. It's not like the Premiership or Top14 doesn't have the same problem with have and have nots.

You only have to look at Worcester and Agen. Agen couldn't beat a local pub side to be honest. They have been shocking.

And are Worcester really any better than say the Dragons, Zebre & Treviso. I don't see it myself. And they aren't alone in the Premiership either. Some very average sides in the bottom half of that league.

In any case - stick to your league and let us Celts enjoy ours.

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Post by Irish Londoner Thu 01 Jul 2021, 8:38 am

PhilBB wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:

The simple answer Phil is that there isn't enough money or support to sustain a proper second division.
The French have some pretty big names in D2 - USAP, Biarritz, Oyonnax, which the Championship doesn't have, the biggest name in the Championship is whichever Premiership team has been relegated that season, who also are likely to win everything, so it's not that competitive.
Also the clubs that might think about chasing promotion - Ealing, Jersey, Pirates, Doncaster are wary of the arbitrary rules about "ground standards" that seem to apply to them but not relegated Premiership teams, or the costs of even trying to be competitive in the Premiership.

I disagree with that. I believe a proper second tier would attract a broadcast partner that would deliver "a proper second division".

If you want "big names" in the second tier then the simple answer is to make the top tier just 10 teams and ensure the four Welsh are involved. That way you'll have two competitive 10-team divisions, with 2 up, 2 down.

I agree with you on the entry criteria set by PRL. That needs to be reviewed and, I believe, is being reviewed.

Of course, none of the above will happen as the PRL group is too strong, the WRU too pathetic and the Championship clubs too weak. So, in the end, all suffer because they are incapable of working with each together to become collectively stronger.

Ah, so this is about getting the Welsh out of the evil empire to play second division English rugby instead and nothing to do with the states of Coventry, Ampthill or Bedford. If you can provide a list of the benefits for the English  clubs in the top two divisions please. What would letting the Welsh in do to make English club or test rugby "collectively stronger"?
Please write on one side of the paper and remember to show your working out.

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Post by Old Man Thu 01 Jul 2021, 8:45 am

What I don’t get is why Phill is adamant that the Welsh teams must play in the English leagues?

And also why it would be better for the Welsh regions.

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Post by Irish Londoner Thu 01 Jul 2021, 9:21 am

Old Man wrote:What I don’t get is why Phill is adamant that the Welsh teams must play in the English leagues?

And also why it would be better for the Welsh regions.

It seems to be a combination of false nostalgia, "When English clubs toured Wales in the 1970's you used to get 75,000 into Pontypridd to see them play Bristol", secondly the idea that the Premiership is a promised land of milk and honey where a huge amount of money will find it's way into the pockets of the regions and they'll dominate European rugby, the final one (and this seems to the main one for Phil) is that it'll force the dastardly Irish clubs to financial ruin without the Welsh clubs in the "PrO'14".

It's similar to the delusion Celtic and Rangers fans have that if they were allowed into the English Premier League within a couple of years they'd be picking up every trophy in Europe.

It would be better for the Welsh regions, in terms of money, however the problem is that none of the English clubs actually want it to happen as there's nothing in it for them and that's before you get to things like jurisdiction issues between the RFU and WRU.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 01 Jul 2021, 9:45 am

Look, I do not agree with phil on this, neither do I agree with phil on a lot of things, but he does have a point about the old merit table back in the 70's and 80's. There was a lot of banter between the Welsh and English clubs back then, yes it's nostalgia now, but when you get past phils hyperbole, you can see he is trying to make a point.

I remember when the Harlequins fans used to say they have more millionaires in one stand than the whole of Wales has. Laugh

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Post by Brendan Thu 01 Jul 2021, 11:38 am

Listening to the Attacking Scrum podcast that summed some of the views held in parts of the Welsh public (minor most likely).  When they spoke about the URC they focused how it made the chance of an Anglo-Welsh even less likely which annoyed them.  They also focused on standards of the Welsh teams and how they just wouldn't be able to compete with the Irish and South Africans.

No mention on there of any of the positives such as a guaranteed Champions Cup place, The increase in revenue that could allow them to at least match English wages.  No mention of all Welsh games that were going to be on FTA.  No mention of the hiding Benetton gave the Bulls and backing the Welsh teams to hold their own and challenging the Irish.

Some people in each of the respective countries (including Ireland) just want to see the league fail.  The league didn't fail when it struggled to find a sponsers and the teams used it as a development league for the Champions Cup.  It is now a good league were teams like Ospreys and Benetton have both finished bottom when they had a bad year due to injury and internationals. I can realistically see Munster missing out on the Champions Cup in the next three years.. I base this on Munster finishing third top of their Conference and having the teams that finish second in the other conferences getting more points.

The ProD2 works because at the start the French choose to have the top two divisions be run together where money was shared.  This meant it was easier to get up to the T14 and stay there.  You have teams like Agen who dont try but they are few and far between.  The English decided to do just the 13 top teams meaning it was harder for teams from below to topple the relegated team.  Exeter were the only team to break through and only Bristol with their money allowed them to sustain non-promotion.  As the gap got bigger the reach of the Prem shrank back to the 13 clubs while the fans of the lower clubs started to dislike the Prem as it ate all their RFU dinners.

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Post by PhilBB Thu 01 Jul 2021, 11:55 am

Welshmushroom wrote:To me the Pro14 is a credible league.  It's not like the Premiership or Top14 doesn't have the same problem with have and have nots.

You only have to look at Worcester and Agen.  Agen couldn't beat a local pub side to be honest.  They have been shocking.

And are Worcester really any better than say the Dragons, Zebre & Treviso.  I don't see it myself.  And they aren't alone in the Premiership either.  Some very average sides in the bottom half of that league.

In any case - stick to your league and let us Celts enjoy ours.  

You, with a straight face, wrote "doesn't have the same problem with have and have nots" when the same team wins it time after time because of its huge budget advantange?

That you referenced just the worst team in the league as some kind of indication of its quality is very telling.
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Post by PhilBB Thu 01 Jul 2021, 11:55 am

Old Man wrote:What I don’t get is why Phill is adamant that the Welsh teams must play in the English leagues?

And also why it would be better for the Welsh regions.

Bristol is an hour away from me by car.

Cape Town isn't.

Do you really need anything more than that?
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Post by Old Man Thu 01 Jul 2021, 11:56 am

Once the SA teams are eligible to qualify for the champions cup it should enhance the performances of the URC in the Champions Cup.

I would expect SARU to have at least two representatives in the top 8, would hope for three

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Post by PhilBB Thu 01 Jul 2021, 11:56 am

Irish Londoner wrote:

Ah, so this is about getting the Welsh out of the evil empire to play second division English rugby instead and nothing to do with the states of Coventry, Ampthill or Bedford. If you can provide a list of the benefits for the English  clubs in the top two divisions please. What would letting the Welsh in do to make English club or test rugby "collectively stronger"?
Please write on one side of the paper and remember to show your working out.

Nice tone.

If you can't work out the benefit of a strong second tier then you've not been paying attention.

Do you want me to write a reply so that somebody who hasn't been paying attention will understand?
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Post by Old Man Thu 01 Jul 2021, 11:57 am

PhilBB wrote:
Old Man wrote:What I don’t get is why Phill is adamant that the Welsh teams must play in the English leagues?

And also why it would be better for the Welsh regions.

Bristol is an hour away from me by car.

Cape Town isn't.

Do you really need anything more than that?

Your team whomever it may be will play two matches in SA, big sacrifice for more money, eh?

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Post by PhilBB Thu 01 Jul 2021, 11:57 am

Irish Londoner wrote:

It seems to be a combination of false nostalgia, "When English clubs toured Wales in the 1970's you used to get 75,000 into Pontypridd to see them play Bristol", secondly the idea that the Premiership is a promised land of milk and honey where a huge amount of money will find it's way into the pockets of the regions and they'll dominate European rugby, the final one (and this seems to the main one for Phil) is that it'll force the dastardly Irish clubs to  financial ruin without the Welsh clubs in the "PrO'14".

It's similar to the delusion Celtic and Rangers fans have that if they were allowed into the English Premier League within a couple of years they'd be picking up every trophy in Europe.

It would be better for the Welsh regions, in terms of money, however the problem is that none of the English clubs actually want it to happen as there's nothing in it for them and that's before you get to things like jurisdiction issues between the RFU and WRU.

Fair play, that's the guesswork of a child's intellect in that first paragraph.

The first clause of your final paragraph shows how moronic the rest of the post is.
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Post by PhilBB Thu 01 Jul 2021, 11:59 am

Old Man wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Old Man wrote:What I don’t get is why Phill is adamant that the Welsh teams must play in the English leagues?

And also why it would be better for the Welsh regions.

Bristol is an hour away from me by car.

Cape Town isn't.

Do you really need anything more than that?

Your team whomever it may be will play two matches in SA, big sacrifice for more money, eh?

It's not for more money. The increased costs of the PrO'URC far outweigh what a genuine Anglo-Welsh two division league could generate.

And you've missed the point about clubs being an hour away. Dublin isn't, nor Edinburgh etc. etc.
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Post by PhilBB Thu 01 Jul 2021, 11:59 am

Old Man wrote:Once the SA teams are eligible to qualify for the champions cup it should enhance the performances of the URC in the Champions Cup.

I would expect SARU to have at least two representatives in the top 8, would hope for three

I'd expect SARU to make their international players available for more than an odd few rounds of the PrO'URC, but that's not happening either.
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Post by PhilBB Thu 01 Jul 2021, 12:00 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Look, I do not agree with phil on this, neither do I agree with phil on a lot of things, but he does have a point about the old merit table back in the 70's and 80's. There was a lot of banter between the Welsh and English clubs back then, yes it's nostalgia now, but when you get past phils hyperbole, you can see he is trying to make a point.

I remember when the Harlequins fans used to say they have more millionaires in one stand than the whole of Wales has. Laugh

There's no hyperbole.
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Post by PhilBB Thu 01 Jul 2021, 12:03 pm

Brendan wrote:Listening to the Attacking Scrum podcast that summed some of the views held in parts of the Welsh public (minor most likely).  When they spoke about the URC they focused how it made the chance of an Anglo-Welsh even less likely which annoyed them.  They also focused on standards of the Welsh teams and how they just wouldn't be able to compete with the Irish and South Africans.

No mention on there of any of the positives such as a guaranteed Champions Cup place, The increase in revenue that could allow them to at least match English wages.  No mention of all Welsh games that were going to be on FTA.  No mention of the hiding Benetton gave the Bulls and backing the Welsh teams to hold their own and challenging the Irish.

Some people in each of the respective countries (including Ireland) just want to see the league fail.  The league didn't fail when it struggled to find a sponsers and the teams used it as a development league for the Champions Cup.  It is now a good league were teams like Ospreys and Benetton have both finished bottom when they had a bad year due to injury and internationals. I can realistically see Munster missing out on the Champions Cup in the next three years..  I base this on Munster finishing third top of their Conference and having the teams that finish second in the other conferences getting more points.

The ProD2 works because at the start the French choose to have the top two divisions be run together where money was shared.  This meant it was easier to get up to the T14 and stay there.  You have teams like Agen who dont try but they are few and far between.  The English decided to do just the 13 top teams meaning it was harder for teams from below to topple the relegated team.  Exeter were the only team to break through and only Bristol with their money allowed them to sustain non-promotion.  As the gap got bigger the reach of the Prem shrank back to the 13 clubs while the fans of the lower clubs started to dislike the Prem as it ate all their RFU dinners.

The "guaranteed Champions Cup place" is a complete red herring because the participation money is the same whichever cup the club is in.

Welsh clubs already outspend English wages.

Games on FTA isn't an advantage unless it brings in more income. In fact, it's a disincentive for people to go to games.

Welsh teams won't hold their own when they are so hamstrung by their own union.

The league will never fail as it's not a proper competition. It's just something for Union owned teams to do between more important fixtures.
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Post by Old Man Thu 01 Jul 2021, 12:04 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Old Man wrote:Once the SA teams are eligible to qualify for the champions cup it should enhance the performances of the URC in the Champions Cup.

I would expect SARU to have at least two representatives in the top 8, would hope for three

I'd expect SARU to make their international players available for more than an odd few rounds of the PrO'URC, but that's not happening either.

The URC season to my understanding will have minimal interference from test rugby. I would expect the Springbok players to be available for most if not close to all matches in the URC.


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Post by RiscaGame Thu 01 Jul 2021, 12:16 pm

Interesting to see Wayne Pivac already talking about managing Welsh Players. So much for seeing the stars more.

"I think we'll see the best of Will come the autumn time when he's had a good off season and a break. He'll be managed well and the boys at the Dragons will do that," he said.

Link here

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Post by Welshmushroom Thu 01 Jul 2021, 1:17 pm

Anyone else think Phill has been in self isolation to long? 'better for everyone. The SA teams will mean bigger, tougher games' - Page 6 1f637

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Post by Old Man Thu 01 Jul 2021, 1:28 pm

Well he certainly is a bit of a negative Nelly.

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Post by Welshmushroom Thu 01 Jul 2021, 1:35 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:To me the Pro14 is a credible league.  It's not like the Premiership or Top14 doesn't have the same problem with have and have nots.

You only have to look at Worcester and Agen.  Agen couldn't beat a local pub side to be honest.  They have been shocking.

And are Worcester really any better than say the Dragons, Zebre & Treviso.  I don't see it myself.  And they aren't alone in the Premiership either.  Some very average sides in the bottom half of that league.

In any case - stick to your league and let us Celts enjoy ours.  

You, with a straight face, wrote "doesn't have the same problem with have and have nots" when the same team wins it time after time because of its huge budget advantange?

That you referenced just the worst team in the league as some kind of indication of its quality is very telling.

It's really hard to take your seriously.  But just to drive my point home then as clearly your quite pedantic.

Past 10 Year Winners Compared....

Aviva Premiership from 2010 to 2021

Saracens (5)
Exeter (2)
Harlequins (2)
Northampton (1)
Leicester (1)

Pro14 from 2010 to 2021
Leinster (6)
Ospreys (1)
Munster (1)
Connacht (1)
Scarlets (1)
Glasgow (1)

Also worth noting that Saracens due to the salary cap scandal couldn't compete the last 2 league titles in the Premiership.  They probably were the best team in the league the season they got the point deduction and probably still are.

So at the very least the Premiership also has a dominate Leinster style side (Saracens).  But I would argue there have been a wider selection of winners on our side than in England.

Anyway I'm tired of kicking you into touch.  Go play with the kids in the park.

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Post by Irish Londoner Thu 01 Jul 2021, 2:43 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:

Ah, so this is about getting the Welsh out of the evil empire to play second division English rugby instead and nothing to do with the states of Coventry, Ampthill or Bedford. If you can provide a list of the benefits for the English  clubs in the top two divisions please. What would letting the Welsh in do to make English club or test rugby "collectively stronger"?
Please write on one side of the paper and remember to show your working out.

Nice tone.

If you can't work out the benefit of a strong second tier then you've not been paying attention.

Do you want me to write a reply so that somebody who hasn't been paying attention will understand?

I'm all in favour of a strong English second tier. English being the key word.
The current 13 Premiership clubs plus any Championship clubs who would like to be full timers - Ealing, Cov, Pirates, Knights, maybe Bedford. makes 18 clubs. Two divisions of nine each plus a proper cup competition. Two up two down. Less game time for the players over season. What's not to like?
What has this got to do with Wales?

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Post by Irish Londoner Thu 01 Jul 2021, 2:48 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Look, I do not agree with phil on this, neither do I agree with phil on a lot of things, but he does have a point about the old merit table back in the 70's and 80's. There was a lot of banter between the Welsh and English clubs back then, yes it's nostalgia now, but when you get past phils hyperbole, you can see he is trying to make a point.

I remember when the Harlequins fans used to say they have more millionaires in one stand than the whole of Wales has. Laugh

In contemporary terms, it would be a better point if the games against English clubs in the European games were sell outs, or if large numbers of Welsh fans travelled to the English leg of the fixture.

Given house price inflation in London there are probably more millionaires in the restaurants on Twickenham High Street on a Saturday night than there are in Wales Very Happy Or indeed in Yorkshire laughing

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Post by Brendan Thu 01 Jul 2021, 2:56 pm

Phil how do you figure a 20 professional setup to two divisions between English and Welsh teams is more valuable than what England had and has basically admitted it failed by them trying to ringfence like the URC to increase revenue.

If the English Championship has been deemed not financial viable how would and Anglo Welsh league suddenly increase the revenue enough to support the 6 extra team.

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Post by PhilBB Fri 02 Jul 2021, 8:47 am

Old Man wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Old Man wrote:Once the SA teams are eligible to qualify for the champions cup it should enhance the performances of the URC in the Champions Cup.

I would expect SARU to have at least two representatives in the top 8, would hope for three

I'd expect SARU to make their international players available for more than an odd few rounds of the PrO'URC, but that's not happening either.

The URC season to my understanding will have minimal interference from test rugby. I would expect the Springbok players to be available for most if not close to all matches in the URC.


In which case, you haven't checked the fixture lists or done any research.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 02 Jul 2021, 8:47 am

Welshmushroom wrote:Anyone else think Phill has been in self isolation to long?  'better for everyone. The SA teams will mean bigger, tougher games' - Page 6 1f637

You clearly did a lot of self isolation during your schooling years, judging by your factually bereft output on here.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 02 Jul 2021, 8:48 am

Old Man wrote:Well he certainly is a bit of a negative Nelly.

This is a classic response to the stuff I write, usually from fan boys who swallow the lines in the press without doing any of their own research.

Your comment reflects only on your own exposure to the facts.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 02 Jul 2021, 8:50 am

Welshmushroom wrote:
So at the very least the Premiership also has a dominate Leinster style side (Saracens).


So you agree that your initial point was nonsense, but tried to save face by going back 11 years....... during which time the salary spends in rugby have grown enormously.

Well done.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 02 Jul 2021, 8:52 am

Irish Londoner wrote:

I'm all in favour of a strong English second tier. English being the key word.
The current 13 Premiership clubs plus any Championship clubs who would like to be full timers - Ealing, Cov, Pirates, Knights, maybe Bedford. makes 18 clubs. Two divisions of nine each plus a proper cup competition. Two up two down. Less game time for the players over season. What's not to like?
What has this got to do with Wales?

16 games is too few, for starters. Bedford don't want to be full time professional. Three of the others you mention can't push for promotion and there's no market broadcasters for the tournament.

Other than that, well done.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 02 Jul 2021, 8:53 am

Brendan wrote:Phil how do you figure a 20 professional setup to two divisions between English and Welsh teams is more valuable than what England had and has basically admitted it failed by them trying to ringfence like the URC to increase revenue.

If the English Championship has been deemed not financial viable how would and Anglo Welsh league suddenly increase the revenue enough to support the 6 extra team.

The ring fencing is driven by CVC with PRL happy to keep all of the money to themselves.

Your second sentence has been answered time after time: by having a proper broadcast contract.
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Post by Old Man Fri 02 Jul 2021, 8:57 am

PhilBB wrote:
Old Man wrote:Well he certainly is a bit of a negative Nelly.

This is a classic response to the stuff I write, usually from fan boys who swallow the lines in the press without doing any of their own research.

Your comment reflects only on your own exposure to the facts.

I love how you attack posters personally, insulting people because they don’t have the “facts”

I am not a fanboy of anything, in fact I am sceptical abouta number of things, yet SARU has made the decision and I need to be positive enough to give it a go.

You have an obsession with joining the english premiership. Face this fact. It ain't going to happen.

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Post by PhilBB Fri 02 Jul 2021, 9:01 am

Old Man wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Old Man wrote:Well he certainly is a bit of a negative Nelly.

This is a classic response to the stuff I write, usually from fan boys who swallow the lines in the press without doing any of their own research.

Your comment reflects only on your own exposure to the facts.

I love how you attack posters personally, insulting people because they don’t have the “facts”

I am not a fanboy of anything, in fact I am sceptical abouta number of things, yet SARU has made the decision and I need to be positive enough to give it a go.

You have an obsession with joining the english premiership. Face this fact. It ain't going to happen.

I've 'attacked' nobody. Plus, I think you'll find the closest thing to an 'attack' (daft word) was your negative Nelly comment.

I know joining the English Premiership isn't going to happen. Let's hope that sentence registers with you.

Now, see here: https://twitter.com/Richard99366022/status/1407983334907645956?s=20
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Post by PhilBB Fri 02 Jul 2021, 9:02 am

Plus here https://twitter.com/Richard99366022/status/1407417567241805824?s=20
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Post by Old Man Fri 02 Jul 2021, 9:06 am

Phill I suggest you read back some of your comments.

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Post by Irish Londoner Fri 02 Jul 2021, 9:19 am

PhilBB wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:

I'm all in favour of a strong English second tier. English being the key word.
The current 13 Premiership clubs plus any Championship clubs who would like to be full timers - Ealing, Cov, Pirates, Knights, maybe Bedford. makes 18 clubs. Two divisions of nine each plus a proper cup competition. Two up two down. Less game time for the players over season. What's not to like?
What has this got to do with Wales?

16 games is too few, for starters. Bedford don't want to be full time professional. Three of the others you mention can't push for promotion and there's no market broadcasters for the tournament.

Other than that, well done.

So if you'd care to explain, with the facts you seem so keen on, why adding four Welsh teams to the Championship would suddenly make it more attractive to broadcasters, other than BBC Wales/S4C who already show Welsh rugby and indeed who you've criticised for showing PrO'14/URC  games FTA as it reduces the attendance?

Where is this "proper broadcasting contract" going to come from - Sky? BT? Amazon? Some as yet unidentified company that can't wait to give the world Scarlets V Richmond?

Is there any actual evidence that anyone in English rugby wants the Welsh teams there - Sale, Newcastle, London Irish, Worcester? Is there any actual evidence that attendances at Welsh games rise when they play English clubs or any evidence that large numbers of Welsh fans travel the games in England when games are there?

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Post by PhilBB Fri 02 Jul 2021, 9:27 am

Old Man wrote:Phill I suggest you read back some of your comments.

I suggest you play the ball and not the man.

So, how many of the first seven rounds of the PrO'URC will the SA test team players be available for? It's perfectly possible that Richard has his dates wrong, of course, and you're of the opinion the test stars will be featuring more often.

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Post by PhilBB Fri 02 Jul 2021, 9:31 am

Irish Londoner wrote:

So if you'd care to explain, with the facts you seem so keen on, why adding four Welsh teams to the Championship would suddenly make it more attractive to broadcasters, other than BBC Wales/S4C who already show Welsh rugby and indeed who you've criticised for showing PrO'14/URC  games FTA as it reduces the attendance?

Where is this "proper broadcasting contract" going to come from - Sky? BT? Amazon? Some as yet unidentified company that can't wait to give the world Scarlets V Richmond?

Is there any actual evidence that anyone in English rugby wants the Welsh teams there - Sale, Newcastle, London Irish, Worcester? Is there any actual evidence that attendances at Welsh games rise when they play English clubs or any evidence that large numbers of Welsh fans travel the games in England when games are there?

BBC Wales wouldn't shown the PrO'URC without Welsh teams, so we have our first broadcaster.

Attendance for meaningless PrO'Drivel games is elastic. The product is of little interest. The reverse is true for Anglo-Welsh competitive games.

Why mention Richmond? Is it to be clever?

There's no evidence the English want the Welsh. That, of course, is irrelevant to my point. A point it seems that I'm going to have to repeat as it gets lost within the woeful attempts at sarcasm:

For Welsh rugby, there's no positive future in the URC. And I mean that for both meanings of URC. The goal for the four Welsh clubs should be to be part of the English system and, I believe, at least three of them have publicly recognised this. Now, that doesn't mean that I think it is going to happen. That doesn't mean that I think PRL or CVC want it to happen. It just means that's what I believe is the best route forward for Welsh rugby.

Is that clear enough for you now?
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Post by PhilBB Fri 02 Jul 2021, 10:11 am

Now, back to the point:

According to this https://twitter.com/CardiffRugbyWeb/status/1404812262469255182?s=20 the first round of the URC is on September 25th.

New Zealand are playing South Africa on that day, according to this https://www.theroar.com.au/rugby-union/fixtures/the-rugby-championship-draw/

South Africa are playing New Zealand the following weekend, too.

So we can fairly easily assume there's no SA national team players available for the first two weeks of the competition.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 02 Jul 2021, 10:13 am

You'd assume, therefore, that those involved in the International matches would need a week or so off after the run of games SA are intending to play.

So it's unlikely to see SA players for the first three rounds, at least.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 02 Jul 2021, 10:16 am

Now, supposedly, teams are going to 'tour' SA in blocks of a fortnight whilst the SA teams were going to 'tour' Europe in three week blocks.

So I wonder which lucky teams may get to play in SA during those first three rounds of games when the SA national team players are missing. And I wonder which teams will be lucky enough to host the SA teams when the SA national team players are missing?

So we're at the point where it's clear that the 'luck' of the draw of the fixture list hugely affects the chances of the teams involved. And, once you hit that point, the competition has lost any credence it could possibly have had.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 02 Jul 2021, 10:17 am

So those are the facts as known, so far, regarding the SA involvement in the URC.

Anybody fancy defending this competition now?
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Post by Old Man Fri 02 Jul 2021, 10:37 am

The RC usually runs from the middle of August to the first weekend of October , The URC start weekend of 26th September which would impact the SA teams for the first three rounds.

Most likely those first matches would be mostly local derbies.

So out of 18 rounds only 3 rounds are impacted, and we don’t know how severe yet.

That is less than 20% of the matches.

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Post by Welshmushroom Fri 02 Jul 2021, 10:55 am

PhilBB wrote:Now, supposedly, teams are going to 'tour' SA in blocks of a fortnight whilst the SA teams were going to 'tour' Europe in three week blocks.

So I wonder which lucky teams may get to play in SA during those first three rounds of games when the SA national team players are missing. And I wonder which teams will be lucky enough to host the SA teams when the SA national team players are missing?

So we're at the point where it's clear that the 'luck' of the draw of the fixture list hugely affects the chances of the teams involved. And, once you hit that point, the competition has lost any credence it could possibly have had.

Source? Or is this another one of your absurd statements without any actual background to it.

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Post by PhilBB Fri 02 Jul 2021, 11:01 am

Welshmushroom wrote:
PhilBB wrote:Now, supposedly, teams are going to 'tour' SA in blocks of a fortnight whilst the SA teams were going to 'tour' Europe in three week blocks.

So I wonder which lucky teams may get to play in SA during those first three rounds of games when the SA national team players are missing. And I wonder which teams will be lucky enough to host the SA teams when the SA national team players are missing?

So we're at the point where it's clear that the 'luck' of the draw of the fixture list hugely affects the chances of the teams involved. And, once you hit that point, the competition has lost any credence it could possibly have had.

Source?  Or is this another one of your absurd statements without any actual background to it.

Source? Are you for real? The information is in the posts above, with fixture lists.

Good God.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 02 Jul 2021, 11:02 am

Old Man wrote:The RC usually runs from the middle of August to the first weekend of October , The URC start weekend of 26th September which would impact the SA teams for the first three rounds.

Most likely those first matches would be mostly local derbies.

So out of 18 rounds only 3 rounds are impacted, and we don’t know how severe yet.

That is less than 20% of the matches.

Your "most likely" is a complete guess as the derbies are played at Christmas time in order to maximise crowds.

We know that 1/6th of the matches are immediately affected.

Now do you want to add in the Irish and Welsh playing games outside of the window? This is only just the start.
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