Closer Ties between the Top Level clubs and the next tier

Originally posted this on another thread, but realised it was the wrong place.  So moved it here instead.

There was a group that televised the Ealing Trailfinder Cup, the pre-season English Championship tournament with Ealing, Donny, and Sarries.  The commentators were obviously semi-pro as well but the stream was quite good.  
It was called 247tv:  
https://www.247.tv/gaa/trailfinderscc/video/1173007-ealing-trailfinders-v-saracens-saturday-16th-jan-2021-2-30pm
is the link I saved.  Don't know if they made money, but it might be a way to start to put a couple of Championship matches on tv or a live stream each weekend.  And maybe a couple of Welsh Premiership matches and Rugby in Scotland too.

I also wonder if on weekends when Saints are away if Bedford could move a match or two to the Gardens, Hartpury could move one or two to Kingsholm, Notts to Welford Road, (Sarries to Saint Helena, ha ha) and so on, just to make a special event and maybe raise a little more money and build closer bonds between the Championship and the Premiership clubs.  Couldn't do it every weekend as the grounds need to rest too.  But most Rugby training except goal kicking occurs on training pitches, so likely, on an exception basis, might be workable.  

What do you think?

I do agree more second level rugby should be given live streams to pull in people. I know the Super 6 in Scotland just got picked up by Freesports which also shows the Currie Cup and Mitre 10 aswell.

Not sure about the stadium idea as I don't think the fans would want it nor would they be given it for free.

I do like the cup idea though. In Soccer any promotion playoff final is held in Wembley and clubs that might struggle to get 10k attending can fill 60k seats. So maybe the Championship and level below it have Cup where to semis are held at the bigger grounds and the final at Twickenham, walking out on that pitch in front of 50k people would be a dream come through for the players.

Definitley like the idea of the English Championship Final (do they actually have one?) at HQ.  Maybe the Welsh could do at Millennium Stadium and in Scotland at Murrayfield or at least at larger grounds where it could have the feel of a bigger event?  

I was only thinking about a stadium which was local to the Championship club once or twice during the season.  The Premiership clubs will always like to make some money selling beer.  Maybe won't work, and I certainly understand your point, but for a couple of matches in non-Covid Britain, something different to try.  If it doesn't work, scrap it.

I'd like to see the lower tiers more accessible. Generate interest which would then surely make it easier to attract sponsors.

Not sure on the stadium idea as say Nottingham had issues filling the County Ground which is why they moved to the smaller ground they are in now and with finances tight they'd want all the food and drinks cash they could generate. The Prem clubs are not financially wealthy either so probably aren't going to be giving much away if ground were to be shared. It's a good idea in principle.

One of the things Zebre did a few years back and nearly tripled their support that weekend was had a rugby festival with the local clubs.  It was great for the city and the Zebre match was the final event.

So the RFU could say pick a weekend where the grassroots rugby descends on Northampton and the RFU pay for the facilities.  They have games at all different levels and ages (maybe county champions or Regional cup finals finishing off with a double header of a championship game and the level below.  It probably could be done simillar to the college bowls played in the USA for college football.  Leicester hold the Cheese  bowl, Worcester the Sauce bowl, Glaws the Pig bowl etc to help the local town/region get behind the event.

It doesn't take long to build the tradition and people would go if the whole town has a festival feel.

Brendan wrote:One of the things Zebre did a few years back and nearly tripled their support that weekend was had a rugby festival with the local clubs.  It was great for the city and the Zebre match was the final event.

So the RFU could say pick a weekend where the grassroots rugby descends on Northampton and the RFU pay for the facilities.  They have games at all different levels and ages (maybe county champions or Regional cup finals finishing off with a double header of a championship game and the level below.  It probably could be done simillar to the college bowls played in the USA for college football.  Leicester hold the Cheese  bowl, Worcester the Sauce bowl, Glaws the Pig bowl etc to help the local town/region get behind the event.

It doesn't take long to build the tradition and people would go if the whole town has a festival feel.

That is a super idea - which is why it could  never happen! Far too creative for the Rugby powers that be.

Seriously. that is really good.  Make these big events.  If you build it, they will come.

doctor_grey wrote:Definitley like the idea of the English Championship Final (do they actually have one?) at HQ.  Maybe the Welsh could do at Millennium Stadium and in Scotland at Murrayfield or at least at larger grounds where it could have the feel of a bigger event?  

This already happens in Scotland where lower tier competitions have their finals at Murrayfield. The Scottish Schools Cup final for example has been played there for many years, had I been more talented I could’ve played there myself as a few of my friends did!

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Definitley like the idea of the English Championship Final (do they actually have one?) at HQ.  Maybe the Welsh could do at Millennium Stadium and in Scotland at Murrayfield or at least at larger grounds where it could have the feel of a bigger event?  

This already happens in Scotland where lower tier competitions have their finals at Murrayfield. The Scottish Schools Cup final for example has been played there for many years, had I been more talented I could’ve played there myself as a few of my friends did!

I didn't know that. It makes great sense. Therefore impossible in England...

doctor_grey wrote:

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Definitley like the idea of the English Championship Final (do they actually have one?) at HQ.  Maybe the Welsh could do at Millennium Stadium and in Scotland at Murrayfield or at least at larger grounds where it could have the feel of a bigger event?  

This already happens in Scotland where lower tier competitions have their finals at Murrayfield. The Scottish Schools Cup final for example has been played there for many years, had I been more talented I could’ve played there myself as a few of my friends did!

I didn't know that.  It makes great sense.  Therefore impossible in England...

In league of Ireland Soccer which gets about 2-3k at a match has the cup final at the Aviva. The final gets about 30k as it is seen as a day out for the league not just the two teams that quailify.

doctor_grey wrote:

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Definitley like the idea of the English Championship Final (do they actually have one?) at HQ.  Maybe the Welsh could do at Millennium Stadium and in Scotland at Murrayfield or at least at larger grounds where it could have the feel of a bigger event?  

This already happens in Scotland where lower tier competitions have their finals at Murrayfield. The Scottish Schools Cup final for example has been played there for many years, had I been more talented I could’ve played there myself as a few of my friends did!

I didn't know that.  It makes great sense.  Therefore impossible in England...

The English Schools Cup final is held at Twickenham, as is the "Varsity" match, Army v Navy, the County Championship final and possibly a couple of others.

Brendan wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Definitley like the idea of the English Championship Final (do they actually have one?) at HQ.  Maybe the Welsh could do at Millennium Stadium and in Scotland at Murrayfield or at least at larger grounds where it could have the feel of a bigger event?  

This already happens in Scotland where lower tier competitions have their finals at Murrayfield. The Scottish Schools Cup final for example has been played there for many years, had I been more talented I could’ve played there myself as a few of my friends did!

I didn't know that.  It makes great sense.  Therefore impossible in England...

In league of Ireland Soccer which gets about 2-3k at a match has the cup final at the Aviva.  The final gets about 30k as it is seen as a day out for the league not just the two teams that quailify.

So just like the final of the Premiership getting 82k at Twickenham when the clubs average about 13k to 15k then.

MichaelT wrote:

Brendan wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Definitley like the idea of the English Championship Final (do they actually have one?) at HQ.  Maybe the Welsh could do at Millennium Stadium and in Scotland at Murrayfield or at least at larger grounds where it could have the feel of a bigger event?  

This already happens in Scotland where lower tier competitions have their finals at Murrayfield. The Scottish Schools Cup final for example has been played there for many years, had I been more talented I could’ve played there myself as a few of my friends did!

I didn't know that.  It makes great sense.  Therefore impossible in England...

In league of Ireland Soccer which gets about 2-3k at a match has the cup final at the Aviva.  The final gets about 30k as it is seen as a day out for the league not just the two teams that quailify.

So just like the final of the Premiership getting 82k at Twickenham when the clubs average about 13k to 15k then.

Similar, but a little different. I checked the actual figures and in 2019 the average per game was 2.2k over 5 games so any weekend only about 11k attend games which means 3 times the average weekly attendance attends the final.

In the premiership the average attendance is 14.5k so 87k (5k more than HQ) attend on any weekend (though figures change because of big games). I think the big league games in the Prem fill up HQ themselves so it's an event and pulls in many non-club following fans. I would be interested if any of the club's see bumps after holding one.

Okay, to me to posts were reading like what England should do to grow the game, and an example was the LOI final as a crowd pulling event compared to the usual league games. As has now been shown, approx 66% of those fans only turn up for the final, and that has not lead to an increase in fans to the general games. Not sure that is the model to follow?

MichaelT wrote:Okay, to me to posts were reading like what England should do to grow the game, and an example was the LOI final as a crowd pulling event compared to the usual league games. As has now been shown, approx 66% of those fans only turn up for the final, and that has not lead to an increase in fans to the general games. Not sure that is the model to follow?

Mate, I think the bigger problem is the people running the Premiership and/or the RFU appear to be doing nothing out of the box to try and grow the sport.  For me, it is OK to try different things, some will work and some won't. And that's OK. I know many of the pro clubs are trying to reach more fans in their communities, but nothing strategic that can make a bit of a splash which could draw interest.  I'm a Saints supporter and the club does a lot, and a lot of good stuff, in the community.  But a person likely knows about it if they are already a Saints supporter or follow the club at least a little bit.

doctor_grey wrote:

MichaelT wrote:Okay, to me to posts were reading like what England should do to grow the game, and an example was the LOI final as a crowd pulling event compared to the usual league games. As has now been shown, approx 66% of those fans only turn up for the final, and that has not lead to an increase in fans to the general games. Not sure that is the model to follow?

Mate, I think the bigger problem is the people running the Premiership and/or the RFU appear to be doing nothing out of the box to try and grow the sport.  For me, it is OK to try different things, some will work and some won't. And that's OK.  I know many of the pro clubs are trying to reach more fans in their communities, but nothing strategic that can make a bit of a splash which could draw interest.  I'm a Saints supporter and the club does a lot, and a lot of good stuff, in the community.  But a person likely knows about it if they are already a Saints supporter or follow the club at least a little bit.

That might be fair enough, but lets look at what they have done over the last 10 years alone in England.

1. Held a world cup. with huge interest, a trophy tour, games held across the country, is that not trying to grow the sport? Well they got to the final in 2019 after a period of success not seen in England for over 10 years. So not sure what else they can do there.
2. Hold a domestic league final, and regular 'event' matches in twickenham. So thats an attempt. Domestic channel coverage was on itv and now channel 5. BT Sport took over and they gave their sports channels free to people who had the broadband so an attempt there. Bringing the league to 14 teams and stopping relegation for a season or two to allow for building and planning and seeing what people could achieve with that pressure off.
3. You mention Saints, a lot of people point to Saracens as an example of working hard in the community, how has that increased popularity? What else can they do?
4. Made changes to the European competition as England (and France) had been complaining about it since its inception in the late 90s. No changes there in popularity, and again with success in 10 years.

I would say alot has been done.

Maybe - and this might upset people - maybe people will have to accept that there is no growth in rugby. Its a niche sport that is too technical/ complex for the general public. In England you have teams in football who are in League 2 (old 4th division) getting crowds that dwarf the majority of top rugby clubs in far more populous areas. Bradford, Sunderland, Wigan, Portsmouth all get bigger, or at least match, crowds that say Leinster or Racing 92 do on average, and they turn up year on year with no chance of competing at the very top.

MichaelT wrote:Okay, to me to posts were reading like what England should do to grow the game, and an example was the LOI final as a crowd pulling event compared to the usual league games. As has now been shown, approx 66% of those fans only turn up for the final, and that has not lead to an increase in fans to the general games. Not sure that is the model to follow?

I think that a championship final would be good but not sure how it would work as an event and if the teams will buy in though you would assume they will

Average Championship game got 1.7k a game so about 10k a week. As you say LOI does poor outside the cup final and part of that is that domestic fans think the FAI only care about internationals so it is like a we are still here from lots of grassroots fans.

RFU seem to be following the FAI model so it is probably the fans or championship that will drive change

Brendan wrote:

MichaelT wrote:Okay, to me to posts were reading like what England should do to grow the game, and an example was the LOI final as a crowd pulling event compared to the usual league games. As has now been shown, approx 66% of those fans only turn up for the final, and that has not lead to an increase in fans to the general games. Not sure that is the model to follow?

I think that a championship final would be good but not sure how it would work as an event and if the teams will buy in though you would assume they will

Average Championship game got 1.7k a game so about 10k a week.  As you say LOI does poor outside the cup final and part of that is that domestic fans think the FAI only care about internationals so it is like a we are still here from lots of grassroots fans.

RFU seem to be following the FAI model so it is probably the fans or championship that will drive change

Maybe I am missing something - what do you mean when you say a championship final? How would it be different to the recent Saracens and Ealing matches?

MichaelT wrote:

Brendan wrote:

MichaelT wrote:Okay, to me to posts were reading like what England should do to grow the game, and an example was the LOI final as a crowd pulling event compared to the usual league games. As has now been shown, approx 66% of those fans only turn up for the final, and that has not lead to an increase in fans to the general games. Not sure that is the model to follow?

I think that a championship final would be good but not sure how it would work as an event and if the teams will buy in though you would assume they will

Average Championship game got 1.7k a game so about 10k a week.  As you say LOI does poor outside the cup final and part of that is that domestic fans think the FAI only care about internationals so it is like a we are still here from lots of grassroots fans.

RFU seem to be following the FAI model so it is probably the fans or championship that will drive change

Maybe I am missing something - what do you mean when you say a championship final? How would it be different to the recent Saracens and Ealing matches?

They were a 2 leg promotion playoff and would only have been attended by Sarries and Ealing fans (If they could have. Pro12 use to do the same and few people went that weren't fans of the two teams. Also the venue is up in the air till a week or two before hand. Since moving to a set venue it have become a league event and great day out with all the stuff going on in and around the Stadium.

I disagree that another event is going to make a difference, especially one in a league with an average of 2k for matches. Just adding a waltzer and a slide outside a ground wont improve much.

The main issue is the sport itself. Too many opportunities to win penalties. Manipulation of the referee/ laws is too easy. As I said on another post this week, its moving away from a contest for the ball to something else.

MichaelT wrote:I disagree that another event is going to make a difference, especially one in a league with an average of 2k for matches. Just adding a waltzer and a slide outside a ground wont improve much.

The main issue is the sport itself. Too many opportunities to win penalties. Manipulation of the referee/ laws is too easy. As I said on another post this week, its moving away from a contest for the ball to something else.

Final wasn't my idea but it can't hurt and gives players a day out. Can't see why a date in May can be triple head of the Championship and next two levels below.

RFU need to do something or it will quickly become like all the top leagues in the other home nations That have a top level of professional players feed by the academies and then a massive gap to the semi-pro championship in front of 500 people. Players who develop late will have no career as only academy kids will get pro contracts and soon the championship becomes a league of 20 somethings putting off growing up while the older and mature players pack in the 15-20k a year for a legal or finance job paying two or three times the money. Not great for a country with so many players and fans.

Once that happens it will be like cricket and the Barney Army following the national team and couldn't care about club rugby. When that happens how do the bottom teams in the Prem stay viable when they get beat all the time.

Think that last post is complete hyperbole amd scaremongering. It doesn't read like anything based in reality. There is no implication that club rugby will go anywhere in England. The season that just finished is one of the most interesting and exciting in years, with each club having young players in or around the national team. A real goodwill sports story to remember that isn't happening in other leagues.

The standard and games this season have been a revelation. I think every other league is going to struggle to match that.

MichaelT wrote:Think that last post is complete hyperbole amd scaremongering. It doesn't read like anything based in reality. There is no implication that club rugby will go anywhere in England. The season that just finished is one of the most interesting and exciting in years, with each club having young players in or around the national team. A real goodwill sports story to remember that isn't happening in other leagues.

The standard and games this season have been a revelation. I think every other league is going to struggle to match that.

You must have missed the part that this is not deal8ng with the Premership.  The Championship had teams that pulled out because they couldn't afford to play.  Is that not a massive warning sign of the health outside the Premership.  How many clubs both big and small that didn't play for 1-1.5 year due to Covid are struggling.  How many of the rising generation have given up on playing the sport.  Plenty players retiring early to focus on career that aren't going to be easily replaced

When the Premership is effectively ringfenced and teams like Worcester only have to be good enough to beat part-timers it doesn't take long for their owners to reduce wages to save costs.  The professional system in England has shrunk over the last 10 years.  What has happened to stop that.  Covid has sped it up in some cases.  I have seen nothing to imply that the number of professional clubs in England is now secure.  Happy to be proved wrong but even the Premership teams aren't immune to it as we heard during Covid.

Your last part of your earlier post was about premiership clubs being viable. Thats what I was referring to with the hyperbole. What you are saying applies to every country, not specifically to England. That Furlong only signed for a year is a warning in Ireland. How many of the Scottish team are now playing outside Scotland. Wales were nearly down to 3 clubs last year. You are focusing on England for some reason and I dont know why?

MichaelT wrote:Your last part of your earlier post was about premiership clubs being viable. Thats what I was referring to with the hyperbole. What you are saying applies to every country, not specifically to England. That Furlong only signed for a year is a warning in Ireland. How many of the Scottish team are now playing outside Scotland. Wales were nearly down to 3 clubs last year. You are focusing on England for some reason and I dont know why?

The thread is about England. That might be why the focus on England.

I agree that the other home nations have had their issues and continue to do it. Not too worried about Ireland. We had to sort out what we could afford back in the day. They had to survive on 4 teams. They couldn't afford the 4th team for a while so they made it half a team. Once they could afford it they made it a full team and developed it's schools and clubs to help support it.

Regarding Furlong you have a great player who has some injuries that could see his career cut short. He may need the big payday sooner rather than later. Just like the IRFU let Marty Moore go for Furlong his understudy Porter would have been a Lion but for injury. The same policy that brought Furlong to light might be his downfall but that's life.

SRU play smart with the money. They use the two pro teams to develop internationals. If they want to be superstars or not going to be internationals they get moved on for the most part. They have money but ain't wasting it.

I am referring to the doomsday predictions you have that are focusing only on England. The post about 20 year olds not wanting to grow up and involved the barmy army. That post. What was that about? It read very badly. You moved the thread on to this "we are all doomed" scenario future. Why was that aimed at England?

Then you say not worried about Ireland or Scotland, so it is focused on England for the negativity. Why?

There were about 20 professional teams in England. With effective ringfencing and less RFU funding England will be left with 14 professional teams. How many of the Championship young players are playing because they hope to get a Premership contract. That route won't be open. Of the young players in the Premership they won't be farmed out to championship clubs like before because of its lowering standard. They will now miss out on development and be replaced by imports. Soccer is a good example of this where kids don't develop because they only play A games that are really training matches.

The point of those in the 20s is to do with Covid at the lower levels. Playing for a rugby club takes alot of time. When covid hit players focused on their career because there was no rugby and as a result don't have the time to now come back to play rugby.

Why doom on England, maybe the fact that their TV money didn't go up yet still have to pay CVC their share. The fact the CVC money is gone and Premership team owners were talking about financial trouble. Reducing wage caps to save money. RFU agreement that is subject to performance so due to Covid might result in the last 4 years being less than expected.

On the other hand URC and T14 income per team seems to be going up. There is plenty to worry about each Union but if you want to start a thread on that I can make my views known.

Scotland and France seem to be managing fine with both working on providing more professional contracts not less.

Your first paragraph - yes because the English football team is performing very poorly recently. Not sure thats a good example. Also, you do know the ringfencing is for one more season, then a play-off between bottom and top and then back to usual one up one down from 2023/ 24? Seems very pragmatic and sensible to me in light of the global situation.

Second paragraph applies everywhere, not just England. Think England have the best young players around - look at the u20 results, and the England senior team just named today full of 20 to 24 year olds.

So TV money didn't go up. Thats your big thing. I thought CVC got a share of increased money? URC got extra money because they brought it a big southern hemisphere gun, not because of an organic nature of the league. Jury is very much out on how that will work. The IRFU stated last September professional rugby could disappear due to Covid issues, so again your foreboding of doom has examples elsewhere and not just England.

I don't want to start a thread on the problems facing everybody. I have no interest in that. I however would prefer balanced posts where everything English isn't belittled when the issues you are highlighting apply to all.