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GeordieFalcon wrote:Sam Simmonds should be a 12.

With limited distribution and no kicking game... I hate to be a killjoy but he sounds a bit like Manu without the same power!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Isiekwe is one who should be pushing on. I've discounted him a bit as he really underwhelmed after initial promise. The guy is only 23 thought (remarkably) and where better to learn from than at Saracens? Another guy though who seems to have stalled as people decide whether he's a lock or blindside.

Isiekwe for me is the long-term successor to Lawes, can see him developing his game over time in a similar trajectory.

Yes...well South African locks are in vogue...so we could pair Groves and Ribbans

Isiekwe and Ribbans were a good combination this past season, though Nick did play 6 a lot.

Here's how old our locks will be when the next World Cup comes around in 2023.

Lawes - 34
Kruis - 33
Launchbury - 32
Jonny Hill - 29
Ewels - 28
Itoje - 28
Ribbans - 27
Isiekwe -25
Ted Hill - 24
Kpoku - 24
Munga - 23
Martin - 22

All younger than AWJ is now; Simon Shaw was when he played for the Lions in 2009, and Paul O'Connell was at the 2015 World Cup.

Launchbury and Lawes have got a lot of miles on their clocks, and the injury records to show it. If they can still perform as they have shown recently, however, you wouldn't rule either out. Kruis is enjoying life in Japan, and could be the freshest of the three in their thirties, if he decided to challenge again for a spot.

The next World Cup is in France, which is much easier for flying in replacements, so England could afford to carry more higher injury risk players in the squad than you'd want to do with a tournament held in Japan, NZ, Australia, or the USA west coast.

Ideally, other players are having a stormer and demanding inclusion. Still, its quite possible the experienced locks will be around. If they are in good form, then we shouldn't discount them just because we are a bit bored seeing the same faces.

I guess the way I look at it is whether we could see England winning the RWC with certain players in the squad. If we take Lawes, Kruis, Launchbury, and Itoje, assuming they play at the same level as today (or prior to injury for Launchbury), they would still be a terrific second row grouping, and one we could win with. I think it is other positions where new faces are more of a need.

That to me is a hell of a good list of locks across the age ranges. You'll imagine a few will drop away slightly and there's always a couple of surprises too. Definitely lots of options.

There are more who might make the step up as well. At Quins we have Hugh Tizard and George Hammond, who have both looked at home at senior level but should get even better as their bodies mature. Tizard reminds me quite a bit of a young Kruis - not flashy, but does all the basics very well.

Poorfour wrote:There are more who might make the step up as well. At Quins we have Hugh Tizard and George Hammond, who have both looked at home at senior level but should get even better as their bodies mature. Tizard reminds me quite a bit of a young Kruis - not flashy, but does all the basics very well.

itoje is flashy enough for both locks...more than happy with a boring tough nut who does all the basics brilliantly.

Traditionally the best lock pairings were a Martin Johnson enforcer type paired with a Ben Kay setpiece type, unless you were lucky enough to have John Eales in your squad.

The Johnson role has evolved to the point where Itoje is more like an oversized Richard Hill, at least when he's playing cannily rather than trying too hard. But the technical setpiece role remains and I think is no less essential than it was.

My worry with the likes of Ewels and Jonny Hill is that they strike me as more like old school enforcers than either modern archetype. I may be misjudging them based on a small sample of how they play, but I don't see them replacing that Kay/Kruis role.

Poorfour wrote:Traditionally the best lock pairings were a Martin Johnson enforcer type paired with a Ben Kay setpiece type, unless you were lucky enough to have John Eales in your squad.

The Johnson role has evolved to the point where Itoje is more like an oversized Richard Hill, at least when he's playing cannily rather than trying too hard. But the technical setpiece role remains and I think is no less essential than it was.

My worry with the likes of Ewels and Jonny Hill is that they strike me as more like old school enforcers than either modern archetype. I may be misjudging them based on a small sample of how they play, but I don't see them replacing that Kay/Kruis role.

Good point. I think Hill (Jonny, not Richard) and Ewels are good players, but not as strong all around the pitch to the degree of Launchbury or Kruis.
Eddie Jones likes to partner Itoje with Hill, but if I had to guess would prefer Kruis. A good similar pairing would be Launchbury with Lawes, though Jones likes having Lawes on the pitch with Hill/Ewels, etc. not the best lineout options.

The question is can Hill develop into that kind of player?

If Launchbury gets back to real fitness, he with Itoje form a good pairing as long as we can play some line-out capability in the back-row (Dombrandt?).  Then with J.Hill on the bench.

Dombrandt at 8 offers lineout.

George Martin starts at 8 for Tigers in their friendly tonight...so you wonder if they are setting him as 6 long term. He would be a big unit at 6...with lineout ability.

4 Ribbans
5 Itoje
6 Martin
7 Curry / Underhill
8 Dombrandt

Would be interesting for Tonga..?

I’ve liked the look of Ribbans for a while - a very physical and athletic player. How solid is he in the setpiece?

I’d rather have Martin on the bench and two proper flankers on the pitch, though.

I also wonder if Eddie will take another look at Kenningham on the flank - he didn’t get to play over the summer because he had to self-isolate after being in contact with one of the coaching team, but Eddie may have seen enough in training to want to look again.

Why is no-one mentioning Ben Earl - is he fallen out of favour or is he injured?

Poorfour wrote:I’ve liked the look of Ribbans for a while - a very physical and athletic player. How solid is he in the setpiece?

I’d rather have Martin on the bench and two proper flankers on the pitch, though.

I also wonder if Eddie will take another look at Kenningham on the flank - he didn’t get to play over the summer because he had to self-isolate after being in contact with one of the coaching team, but Eddie may have seen enough in training to want to look again.

Martin has played pretty much all his game time at 6 for Tigers since breaking through. It's hoped he'll develop into an all action lock in the future but at the minute he's got a quite of game time and an England cap on the flank. He'd potentially the answer to replacing Lawes at 6 if that's how Eddie wants to play.

Similarly I think we'll see Kenningham return to the England fold because he can offer a bit everything from 6. If he can improve his lineout jumping he could really offer Eddie quite a bit of what he wants from both Lawes and the second openside. Kenningham does have that nice tackle technique but also the extra height over Curry and Underhill.

Feel a bit sorry for Earl who is seemingly being edged out slightly as he's our best offensive flanker but I'm not sure we are currently playing to his strengths. Perhaps if Manu and Dombrandt were both making line breaks for him to drift onto the shoulder of like he's so good at.

Earl has been unlucky. He's never started and never really been able to have much impact when he's got on the pitch.

I don't see Earl as having the skillset to make dents (over other options) from the start but a very good one from the bench as he can cover 7 and 8.

Poorfour wrote:I’ve liked the look of Ribbans for a while - a very physical and athletic player. How solid is he in the setpiece?

I’d rather have Martin on the bench and two proper flankers on the pitch, though.

I also wonder if Eddie will take another look at Kenningham on the flank - he didn’t get to play over the summer because he had to self-isolate after being in contact with one of the coaching team, but Eddie may have seen enough in training to want to look again.

Ribbans has showed good work in the line out and scrum. His hookers at Saints don’t throw terribly well so he has had a lot of experience reeling in wayward throws….

doctor_grey wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I’ve liked the look of Ribbans for a while - a very physical and athletic player. How solid is he in the setpiece?

I’d rather have Martin on the bench and two proper flankers on the pitch, though.

I also wonder if Eddie will take another look at Kenningham on the flank - he didn’t get to play over the summer because he had to self-isolate after being in contact with one of the coaching team, but Eddie may have seen enough in training to want to look again.

Ribbans has showed good work in the line out and scrum.  His hookers at Saints don’t throw terribly well so he has had a lot of experience reeling in wayward throws….

To be fair George is usually pretty good and its also (nowadays) an area of strength for LCD

lostinwales wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I’ve liked the look of Ribbans for a while - a very physical and athletic player. How solid is he in the setpiece?

I’d rather have Martin on the bench and two proper flankers on the pitch, though.

I also wonder if Eddie will take another look at Kenningham on the flank - he didn’t get to play over the summer because he had to self-isolate after being in contact with one of the coaching team, but Eddie may have seen enough in training to want to look again.

Ribbans has showed good work in the line out and scrum.  His hookers at Saints don’t throw terribly well so he has had a lot of experience reeling in wayward throws….

To be fair George is usually pretty good and its also (nowadays) an area of strength for LCD

I wasn't slighting George or LCD, but merely making the comment that Ribbans is good in the lineout and can fight for the ball. I think he would be terrific with hookers who can actually throw!

The Tom Young years are too recent.

lostinwales wrote:The Tom Young years are too recent.

My memory for such things isn't perfect but I seem to remember that the Youngs to Parking combination worked well for club and country. Youngs got dropped because there were bigger, more mobile and more physical options on George and LCD coming up behind him and Hartley.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

lostinwales wrote:The Tom Young years are too recent.

My memory for such things isn't perfect but I seem to remember that the Youngs to Parking combination worked well for club and country. Youngs got dropped because there were bigger, more mobile and more physical options on George and LCD coming up behind him and Hartley.

Youngs was usually fine when starting and throwing to a familiar caller, but there are England fans who still wake in a cold sweat from a nightmare of Youngs coming on late in the game and having to throw a pinch lineout.

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

lostinwales wrote:The Tom Young years are too recent.

My memory for such things isn't perfect but I seem to remember that the Youngs to Parking combination worked well for club and country. Youngs got dropped because there were bigger, more mobile and more physical options on George and LCD coming up behind him and Hartley.

Youngs was usually fine when starting and throwing to a familiar caller, but there are England fans who still wake in a cold sweat from a nightmare of Youngs coming on late in the game and having to throw a pinch lineout.

Yeah, I remember Youngs was overall a decent England player and pretty good throwing at times. And certainly gave his all. But he had those moments which were really not good. He was dropped by Eddie Jones for Dylan Hartley.

doctor_grey wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

lostinwales wrote:The Tom Young years are too recent.

My memory for such things isn't perfect but I seem to remember that the Youngs to Parking combination worked well for club and country. Youngs got dropped because there were bigger, more mobile and more physical options on George and LCD coming up behind him and Hartley.

Youngs was usually fine when starting and throwing to a familiar caller, but there are England fans who still wake in a cold sweat from a nightmare of Youngs coming on late in the game and having to throw a pinch lineout.

Yeah, I remember Youngs was overall a decent England player and pretty good throwing at times.  And certainly gave his all.  But he had those moments which were really not good.  He was dropped by Eddie Jones for Dylan Hartley.  

It had been Youngs Vs Hartley for a while pre Eddie. I think Hartley had the shirt first, then Youngs took it and then Hartley took it back and Eddie came in and made him captain. Was a good battle for the shirt between Youngs and Hartley. Hartley ended up with considerably more England caps but Youngs got the Lions caps.

On the topic of hooker I'm interested to see how George Vs LCD goes this season. LCD got the edge for the Lions. I'm hoping young Blamire gets the nod as the third choice, was probably the most eye catching debutant this summer.

Overall I was a fan of Youngs. Hartley's throwing was genuinely very good.

I think LCD should be current first choice but I am sure George will be pushing him hard and there isn't really a lot between them on best form.

Agreed on Blamire.

With George and LCD, England are in a good place. I think they are close in talent, it's just this past season LCD's motor seemed to run a bit faster. If one gets hurt or needs to sit for whatever reason during the internationals, then it gets interesting.

doctor_grey wrote:With George and LCD, England are in a good place.  I think they are close in talent, it's just this past season LCD's motor seemed to run a bit faster.  If one gets hurt or needs to sit for whatever reason during the internationals, then it gets interesting.

It would be a baptism of fire for Blamire if he had to play the SA game that's for sure. I assume that one of LCD and George will miss each of the first two games and then both be selected for the SA game. I'd hope Blamire then plays and gets 20 mins against both Tonga and Australia, maybe more Vs Tonga. That would be the ideal way round with the rest game. Ease Blamire in as he looks very much the next hooker of the ilk of LCD and George.

lostinwales wrote:The Tom Young years are too recent.

I thought I'd recovered from the "Days of Youngs", but that has just made it all come flooding back. He had some of the worst darts I'd ever seen in all my days of watching England, he was so poop.

I'll catch Sam (defender of the Relm of Tigers) before he jumps in......he was actually pretty ok for Tigers he just fell apart with any ounce of pressure in an England shirt. The locks must have had littertally no idea where the ball was going to go!

doctor_grey wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

lostinwales wrote:The Tom Young years are too recent.

My memory for such things isn't perfect but I seem to remember that the Youngs to Parking combination worked well for club and country. Youngs got dropped because there were bigger, more mobile and more physical options on George and LCD coming up behind him and Hartley.

Youngs was usually fine when starting and throwing to a familiar caller, but there are England fans who still wake in a cold sweat from a nightmare of Youngs coming on late in the game and having to throw a pinch lineout.

Yeah, I remember Youngs was overall a decent England player and pretty good throwing at times.  And certainly gave his all.  But he had those moments which were really not good.  He was dropped by Eddie Jones for Dylan Hartley.  

No no no Dr!!!!

I must have 300 posts on here from complaining about Youngs during games. It's giving me cold sweats thinking about it.

I used to pay particular close attention as I had him on the old fantasy league we played on here....and he got slated for his arrows. I used to try and defend him and then just gave up, he was a one of the worst England hookers I've ever seen.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

lostinwales wrote:The Tom Young years are too recent.

I thought I'd recovered from the "Days of Youngs", but that has just made it all come flooding back. He had some of the worst darts I'd ever seen in all my days of watching England, he was so poop.

I'll catch Sam (defender of the Relm of Tigers) before he jumps in......he was actually pretty ok for Tigers he just fell apart with any ounce of pressure in an England shirt. The locks must have had littertally no idea where the ball was going to go!

Aye he was so rubbish he went and played for the Lions on the back of his England form. He also played during the 2012 game Vs the All Black's where we took their scrum to task and even scored a try direct from a first phase lineout move. Can't say he was ever the best lineout thrower or scrummaging hooker but he held his own and at the time it seemed people wanted an excuse to drop him for a bigger hooker or that's how I remember it. The normal one missed lineout throw blown up as a huge error but any bigger hooker could get away multiple shonky throws.

He was good when he broke through but having converted to hooker late there was always the feeling he was looking after the shirt until the next big thing came along to take over from him and Hartley. Jamie George was it.

Sgt there's a lot of anti Youngs family sentiment with you, do you need a hug?

I must have some underlying issue with them. Maybe it's because I'm getting old and their surname is constant reminder of this, I'm not youngs anymore.

Eitherway, he was a shocker of an international hooker. Incredible that he toured with the Lions....but also did Tim Payne?

There seems to be some genetic issue with the Youngs brothers were they just can't throw straight. I really like rugby players to throw straight, it can be quite beneficial.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I must have some underlying issue with them. Maybe it's because I'm getting old and their surname is constant reminder of this, I'm not youngs anymore.

Eitherway, he was a shocker of an international hooker. Incredible that he toured with the Lions....but also did Tim Payne?

There seems to be some genetic issue with the Youngs brothers were they just can't throw straight. I really like rugby players to throw straight, it can be quite beneficial.

The odd decent performance here and there didn't make Youngs a good international hooker. The decision to play him was made worse by the fact he had to play alongside Parling or the lineout fell apart completely. Parling or Launchbury? Parling or Lawes? Parling or Kruis? Not a difficult decision.

Soul Requiem wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I must have some underlying issue with them. Maybe it's because I'm getting old and their surname is constant reminder of this, I'm not youngs anymore.

Eitherway, he was a shocker of an international hooker. Incredible that he toured with the Lions....but also did Tim Payne?

There seems to be some genetic issue with the Youngs brothers were they just can't throw straight. I really like rugby players to throw straight, it can be quite beneficial.

The odd decent performance here and there didn't make Youngs a good international hooker. The decision to play him was made worse by the fact he had to play alongside Parling or the lineout fell apart completely. Parling or Launchbury? Parling or Lawes? Parling or Kruis? Not a difficult decision.

Totally agree...my memory of him was being utterly terrible. I couldn't enjoy a game with him playing as I was just waiting for his throwing to fall apart. Actually though, watching him for Tigers....he was generally ok, must have been the pressure.

Parling was a good player. Would love him around now. Youngs was a bit average. Seen far worse and better international hookers.

doctor_grey wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I’ve liked the look of Ribbans for a while - a very physical and athletic player. How solid is he in the setpiece?

I’d rather have Martin on the bench and two proper flankers on the pitch, though.

I also wonder if Eddie will take another look at Kenningham on the flank - he didn’t get to play over the summer because he had to self-isolate after being in contact with one of the coaching team, but Eddie may have seen enough in training to want to look again.

Ribbans has showed good work in the line out and scrum.  His hookers at Saints don’t throw terribly well so he has had a lot of experience reeling in wHaywarood throws….

Made it a little more succinct for you Doc

One player that I would like to see kick on this year is Alex Moon, he has just about everything, but needs to turn up the physicality, well over 19 stone and 6'8" he is perfectly built for that enforcer role. Him, Ribbans and Lawes make a hell of a lock selection in a matchday 23. With Api Ratuniyarawa and Brandon Nansen also pushing and a number of 5/6s around Saints are blessed with locks at the moment.

He is turning 25 so this should be the start of his prime.  Let's hope he plays as well as we think he can.  He has all the potential in the world.  

Coles and Moon, the two Alexes, it could be their year.  Especially if Ribbans and Lawes are both away with England....

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Eitherway, he was a shocker of an international hooker. Incredible that he toured with the Lions....but also did Tim Payne?

Tim Payne was a late call up and played a friendly. Tom Youngs played in three actual tests. Tom had the purple patch in 2012/13 where he was on top of his game otherwise I tend to agree with 7&1/2 in that he was an average international hooker and just the best of what we had at the time which coincided with Hartley's injuries and suspensions. As I said earlier he was just keeping the shirt warm until England turned out a real quality hooker which we did with Jamie George. Seems more of a conveyor belt now than there was then.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Eitherway, he was a shocker of an international hooker. Incredible that he toured with the Lions....but also did Tim Payne?

Tim Payne was a late call up and played a friendly. Tom Youngs played in three actual tests. Tom had the purple patch in 2012/13 where he was on top of his game otherwise I tend to agree with 7&1/2 in that he was an average international hooker and just the best of what we had at the time which coincided with Hartley's injuries and suspensions. As I said earlier he was just keeping the shirt warm until England turned out a real quality hooker which we did with Jamie George. Seems more of a conveyor belt now than there was then.

I don't think Youngs was keeping the seat warm for anyone. He was Lancaster's choice and when Eddie Jones came in he dropped him like a lead balloon.

Attention seeking fan at a Q & A with Geoff Parling, "Geoff what do you say to people who think you only played for the Lions because Tom Youngs couldn't throw a lineout to anyone else?"

Geoff Parling, "I'd say I played for the Lions mate".

doctor_grey wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Eitherway, he was a shocker of an international hooker. Incredible that he toured with the Lions....but also did Tim Payne?

Tim Payne was a late call up and played a friendly. Tom Youngs played in three actual tests. Tom had the purple patch in 2012/13 where he was on top of his game otherwise I tend to agree with 7&1/2 in that he was an average international hooker and just the best of what we had at the time which coincided with Hartley's injuries and suspensions. As I said earlier he was just keeping the shirt warm until England turned out a real quality hooker which we did with Jamie George. Seems more of a conveyor belt now than there was then.

I don't think Youngs was keeping the  seat warm for anyone.  He was Lancaster's choice and when Eddie Jones came in he dropped him like a lead balloon.  

Very true. That did coincide with George breaking through, George having played for Lancaster in the world cup. Think he actually got his first cap because Hartley has suspended for having headbutted George in a club game just before the internationals. 

Think Eddie got there had a look and Youngs wasn't what he wanted at hooker, George was younger, bigger, more mobile and had a much higher ceiling in terms of potential so one replaced the other. Eddie has tended towards the bigger more powerful hookers during his time as England boss and generally it's worked for him, helped by the emergence of LCD after George. It's why I think we'll see Blamire as third choice come the next EPS he looks exactly what Eddie likes in a hooker and he played very well in the summer. At 23 an ideal age to come in and learn from George and LCD who are what 30 and 28 respectively?

Heavily depends on what Wasps do with Barbeary I think. He will be involved with England I have no doubt.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Heavily depends on what Wasps do with Barbeary I think. He will be involved with England I have no doubt.

Given the depth at back row, his international chances are probably better served by shifting permanently to hooker, I'd have thought

Poorfour wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Heavily depends on what Wasps do with Barbeary I think. He will be involved with England I have no doubt.

Given the depth at back row, his international chances are probably better served by shifting permanently to hooker, I'd have thought

I dunno if he goes to 8 and carries explosively and as often as Eddie likes to see from his 8 that could work. If he can keep his levels of loose game where they are currently but at hooker then he'd be once in a generation talent though that's easier said than done.

That's the caveat. I think he's slotted in either way but I think I'm on the same page here that the potential to be properly top level is easier at hooker , if if if his set piece is good. If it isn't then yes he's going to be kept at 8.

The suggestion is that Barbeary really is a talent, but it is easy to talk up displays at AP level and think that they will transfer to internationals, e.g. Dombrandt.

Lets just see how well he comes back from that knee injury and work out what what Wasps want to do with him. I would not be surprised if he does not break into the international team this year

I'm nailing my colours to the mast. Injury permitting he'll be in the 6ns squad.