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Why South Africa moving North could give T2 countries the help they need

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Sgt_Pooly
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Post by Brendan Sat 11 Sep 2021, 3:49 pm

First topic message reminder :

The current systems and tournaments aren't working in the professional era and WR hasn't been great and developing the game outside of the traditional areas apart from Georgia which has left each Region to look after itself.  Only two areas seem to be actually having success.

Europe with half the members and over half the professional teams in a small area, they were always going to succeed.  The Americas are the other which have looked to do limited professionalism and tried the American 6 Nations to provide more internationals to the T2/3 nations.  Asia, Africa and Oceania due to numbers and finances have struggled to adapt to professionalism and apart from Fiji and Japan are falling quickly into weaker teams heading to T3 rather than T1.

With South Africa heading north at Club level and a push rightly or wrongly to 6N, it is forcing people to look at aligning better teams and to allow teams the same standard of competition as the European teams get.  It would involve having a global calender which realistically is going to be the the NH calender as it would suit more members of WR now.  Only Oz and NZ are going to oppose it.

In the perfect world Region 1 would be Europe and Region 2 the rest of the world.  Due to the distance Region 2 isn't going to as there is way to much travel.  You could do three Regions of Europe/Africa, Americas and Asia/Oceania but Oceania have two much of a drop off between T1 and everyone else.  So the solution is 2 Regions of Europe/Africa and America/Oceania/Asia.

With a 7 week window for the 6Nations you can have 8 teams.  Not great but it provides the best results.  As it is URC and SR did travel and play the same week so can be done.  Having 8 teams mean we go from 10 to 16 teams getting good international competition and 16 more teams fighting it out for the remaining 4-8 spots at WC time. T3 can stay local with a WR Cup between the winners.  In WC years the bottom T2 teams can play the top T3 with the winners securing T2 status for the next WC cycle.

Region 1     Region 2
SA 1             NZ 2
England 3    Argentina 6
Ireland 4      Australia 7
France 5      Japan 10
Scotland 8   Fiji 11
Wales 9        Samoa 13
Georgia 12  Tonga 15
Italy 14         Uruguay 16 or USA 17
*****************************
Romania 18       USA/Urugary 17
Portugal 19       Canada 21
Spain 20            Hong Kong 22
Russia 23          Brazil 26
Netherlands 24  Chile 28
Namibia 25       Korea 31
Belgium 27        Colombia 32
Switzerland 29 Mexico 42
*****************************
Regional Champions
Europe - Germany/Poland 30/33
Africa - Zimbabwe/Kenya 34/35
Asia - Philippines 41
Americas - Paraguay 47
Oceania - Cook Islands 53

For the club level there would be two regional competitions plus each country would look to have a professional teams to allow Unions support their players fulltime with the better players going to the big 5 leagues

Regional Champions & Challange Cups
Region 1         Regional 2
T14                 SR
Prem              Japan
URC               MLR
See below    SLAR

European Super Cup - Russia, Georgia, Israel, Netherlands,  Belgium, Spain, Portugal.  The plan is to grow this slowly so easy enough to add in Switerland, Germany, Rominia
Russian and Romania have about 4 more good professional clubs each.
South African Rugby Challenge has the SA teams plus a Namibian and Zimbabwe team. Georgia are also looking to be a part of this for their team in the Super Cup.
There were plans for a third teir European/African tournament but it can be easily set up to give more rugby to the URC Nations to get more teams.  Something like 4 each from Super Cup, Rugby Challange, Top10 (italy), Super6 and the top 4 A teams league Ireland and Wales played plus top 4 England Championship.

If we have 24 in the Champions Cup and 24 in the Challenge Cup. 16+14+14=44 so 4 semi-finalist from the T3.

So to sum up the teams are more or less there already as are the club sides.  Teams like Switzerland can be added in easily.  Mexico might be tricky but good players can probably spread around the MLR.  The main problem is Asia outside of Japan.

Some might say that Region 2 looks weaker and that is true but Japan is the equivalent of France and the SR like England. MLR and SLAR aren't the URC but those two leagues are going to improve the T2 nations there more than internationals.  Currently it looks like there is no plan for anything above SR or Top league which won't improve either league nor build extra finances.

What are your thoughts

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Post by Brendan Wed 15 Sep 2021, 3:38 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Because that is were the money is. Pacific Islanders, historically move to NZ....because that's were the money is.

Money is the driver in all these situations, just be somewhat thankful that you're not supporting one of the bottom feeders as it must be a tough pill to swallow.

SA don't have it that bad I don't think, theres obviously still a lot of national pride there. You rarely see a top talent that SA are keen to cap jumping ship, it's usually the guys that aren't quite going to make it through the system. Luckily for SA, they seem to churn out quality players at a constant rate, especially in the back 5.

Nope, I do not buy that sorry. We could pay the SH born player a million quid a week, that does not mean they cannot still play for their country of origin.

What ever reason why they come up here, it's not to play for Wales/Scotland/Ireland/England or France, it's for the money, but we end up capping them anyway.

For my liking, I would scrap the grandparent rule, and I would put the residency rule to 10+ years.

You do realise if you did that you would hurt T2 nations much harder than T1 nations.  Without the grandparent role Samoa and Tonga would miss out on alot of potential players.

If you use any of the home nations tell me one player capped by them who choose said country over the country of birth.

Stander was told he had to change position to make it professionally
Roux was never in with a shout of SA caps and was brought over on a 1 year deal for cover
Lowe was not anywhere on the AB radar nor was Aki.  I am sure the other nations are the same.
Ireland lost out on AJ at 10 by those robbers USA.

One thing I am sure you have noticed is alot more NZ and OZ players become PIs once they come North so they can have more benefits in Europe.  Should that also be banned as players are taking advantage of the rules to benefit themselves. Should Charles Piatua be considered a PI so not affecting the two non -EU&co players allowed earning his 1m a year.  He was born in NZ, represented NZ but for more pay is now Tongan. What about Kanio, was NZ when an AB now Samoan for more money.  Wil Skelton, born in NZ, Wallaby capped but is samoan for more money.  List goes on.  Even Mertens back in the day when he moved to Europe suddenly sorted his SA details to get his big deal.

No Union is missing out on players they want except a few T2s who actually use this rule more than T1 nations, especially Samoa and Tonga who were the most "forgien" filled squads at the last WC.

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Post by Brendan Wed 15 Sep 2021, 4:01 pm

MichaelT wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Nope, I do not buy that sorry. We could pay the SH born player a million quid a week, that does not mean they cannot still play for their country of origin.

What ever reason why they come up here, it's not to play for Wales/Scotland/Ireland/England or France, it's for the money, but we end up capping them anyway.

For my liking, I would scrap the grandparent rule, and I would put the residency rule to 10+ years.

Think I would have to be privy to every conversation that say the IRFU had with CJ Stander before believing that he wasn't brought to Ireland with an aim to representing them internationally. Yes it was his choice ultimately, and I remember reading somewhere that he ended up in Ireland because he was offered more than Glasgow could offer at the time, but he wasn't just capped 'anyway', it looked all planned.

CJ Stander is just the one off the top of my head, I am sure there are others - so-called 'Project Players'.

If you take a dog from the animal home do you owe it's former owner's permission to give it a new name.  SA didn't want to cap him so I don't see how SA lost out on him.  Ireland took a chance on him as they did with many others.  He got more money than he would have got just coming over as another SA player.  He was looked after.  Once capped he got the same amount as everyone else. At no point that I am aware of, has any irish/Scot "project player" been contacted by their birth union to play for them which tells you all you need to know.

If a player is lured away from their home country to be a project player but the player's home nation wants to keep them then that is an issue.  Stander was definitely not one of them nor any home nation capped player.

It's like with Brad Shields. NZ had no interest in him and didn't want to cap him even though he had been good for years. Suddenly it seems like England were going to cap him and he was leaving SR and suddenly England were robbing him. They weren't NZ just wanted to appear the victim.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 15 Sep 2021, 4:03 pm

Brendan wrote:You do realise if you did that you would hurt T2 nations much harder than T1 nations. Without the grandparent role Samoa and Tonga would miss out on alot of potential players.

So what ?

If you like, then perhaps you could change it for tier two nations, but I still wouldn't.

Brendan wrote:If you use any of the home nations tell me one player capped by them who choose said country over the country of birth.

Hmmm where to start.

James Lowe
Bundi Aki
Wilis Halaholo
Joe Cokanasiga
Blade Thompson
Ollie Kebble
Simon Berghan
Willem Nel
Byron McGuigan
Duhan Van der Merwe
Jaco Van Der Walt
Sean Maitland

And this is just off the top of my head. Shocked

Look how many Scotland have FFS.

Brendan wrote:Stander was told he had to change position to make it professionally
Roux was never in with a shout of SA caps and was brought over on a 1 year deal for cover
Lowe was not anywhere on the AB radar nor was Aki. I am sure the other nations are the same.

Ah so thats OK then. picard

The rest of your post I honestly cannot be bothered to go through.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 15 Sep 2021, 4:04 pm

MichaelT wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Nope, I do not buy that sorry. We could pay the SH born player a million quid a week, that does not mean they cannot still play for their country of origin.

What ever reason why they come up here, it's not to play for Wales/Scotland/Ireland/England or France, it's for the money, but we end up capping them anyway.

For my liking, I would scrap the grandparent rule, and I would put the residency rule to 10+ years.

Think I would have to be privy to every conversation that say the IRFU had with CJ Stander before believing that he wasn't brought to Ireland with an aim to representing them internationally. Yes it was his choice ultimately, and I remember reading somewhere that he ended up in Ireland because he was offered more than Glasgow could offer at the time, but he wasn't just capped 'anyway', it looked all planned.

CJ Stander is just the one off the top of my head, I am sure there are others - so-called 'Project Players'.

Thats makes it worse. furious

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Post by Old Man Wed 15 Sep 2021, 4:10 pm

CJ Stander let SA when he was 22, not many players make the Bok team at 22.

He had to compete with big name players then to even be considered for the boks, such as Duane Vermeulen, Francois Louw, Willem Alberts.

I think he made his decision regardless of what was said to him b SA coaches

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed 15 Sep 2021, 4:32 pm

It's a tough discussion as always. I don't personally like the "project player", as it feels a bit like a mercenary. If somebody has lived in the country and has developed his rugby there though...I'm a little more relaxed with it.

It is what it is though....until WR start clamping down on this, it's always going to there and nations are always going to push the boundaries.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 15 Sep 2021, 5:04 pm

This floats past every few years. There's a similar thread from 2016 where there's arguments that Faletau doesn't really count as a residency based player from 1. And another saying that Faletau isn't Welsh. If I hadn't recently found it's against the rules to comment on those threads I'd bump it. Nowt much changes but you can see that teams no matter which will take advantage of the rules if there's opportunity to. Its just as above teams like Argentina and SA as example tend not to attract that many good players from abroad.

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Post by Old Man Wed 15 Sep 2021, 5:24 pm

We don't have the money to attract players

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Post by Brendan Wed 15 Sep 2021, 6:17 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Brendan wrote:You do realise if you did that you would hurt T2 nations much harder than T1 nations.  Without the grandparent role Samoa and Tonga would miss out on alot of potential players.

So what ?

If you like, then perhaps you could change it for tier two nations, but I still wouldn't.

Brendan wrote:If you use any of the home nations tell me one player capped by them who choose said country over the country of birth.

Hmmm where to start.

James Lowe
Bundi Aki
Wilis Halaholo
Joe Cokanasiga
Blade Thompson
Ollie Kebble
Simon Berghan
Willem Nel
Byron McGuigan
Duhan Van der Merwe
Jaco Van Der Walt
Sean Maitland

And this is just off the top of my head.  Shocked  

Look how many Scotland have FFS.

Brendan wrote:Stander was told he had to change position to make it professionally
Roux was never in with a shout of SA caps and was brought over on a 1 year deal for cover
Lowe was not anywhere on the AB radar nor was Aki.  I am sure the other nations are the same.

Ah so thats OK then.  picard

The rest of your post I honestly cannot be bothered to go through.

Of your list not a single one of them were wanted by their home Union so none of them choose their adopted country over their birth country so who lost out so what the problem. Which is what I said.

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Post by Brendan Wed 15 Sep 2021, 8:33 pm

So to bring this thread back to topic can we all agree that richer leagues bring in better players and the better players you bring in the more players you are going to be able to adopt.

Aki goes down as a Connacht legend and beloved Connacht man in the eyes of Connacht fans as he was the glue to help them win the league, Irish international and Lion.  If he had stayed home he would just be another player so it's not like the capped player doesn't get anything in return.

So if teams need better finances from leagues to keep players or bring them in depending on what they need then it is WR job to make sure the oversight is there.  Isreal being a good of example of what can happen.
They are currently finished bottom of the 4th level of European Rugby.  They now have a team in the Euro Super Cup.  They are looking to do a mix of SA young players and Israeli internationals.  They will move up as those imports become quailifed but also as their players will be professional.  Isreal is currently ranked 60th which makes them about 30th in Europe.

If Isreal are able to do this what happens when the other 15 countries without a professional outfit deciede to do the same.  WR needs to make sure the MLR and SLAR are able to match the Super Cup and Russian league, they can only do this with inter league competitions..  If we want to see less "poaching" then players need to be able to stay at home.  Currently many areas are not set up to fully allow this as they are isolated and Club level.

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Post by Old Man Wed 15 Sep 2021, 8:46 pm

If more countries are looking to import South African players it will completely ruin our rugby. There has to be a point of saturation.


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Post by LordDowlais Thu 16 Sep 2021, 8:14 am

Brendan wrote:Of your list not a single one of them were wanted by their home Union so none of them choose their adopted country over their birth country so who lost out so what the problem. Which is what I said.

How do you know they were not wanted by their union ? Can you back this claim up ?

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Post by RiscaGame Thu 16 Sep 2021, 8:22 am

I’d imagine if they weren’t capped, they weren’t wanted by their home union? So probably pretty easy to back up?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 16 Sep 2021, 8:31 am

Does it matter either way. Players have the choice. I know some people yearn for the days when you were born and died in the same town but a guy like Cokanasiga shouldn't have to play for a team 1000s of miles away if he doesn't want to. Talk about guys like Nick Tomkins who only found out he has a Welsh grandparent months before he pulled on the red shirt.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 16 Sep 2021, 8:38 am

Brendan wrote:So to bring this thread back to topic can we all agree that richer leagues bring in better players and the better players you bring in the more players you are going to be able to adopt.

Aki goes down as a Connacht legend and beloved Connacht man in the eyes of Connacht fans as he was the glue to help them win the league, Irish international and Lion.  If he had stayed home he would just be another player so it's not like the capped player doesn't get anything in return.

So if teams need better finances from leagues to keep players or bring them in depending on what they need then it is WR job to make sure the oversight is there.  Isreal being a good of example of what can happen.
They are currently finished bottom of the 4th level of European Rugby.  They now have a team in the Euro Super Cup.  They are looking to do a mix of SA young players and Israeli internationals.  They will move up as those imports become quailifed but also as their players will be professional.  Isreal is currently ranked 60th which makes them about 30th in Europe.

If Isreal are able to do this what happens when the other 15 countries without a professional outfit decide to do the same.  WR needs to make sure the MLR and SLAR are able to match the Super Cup and Russian league, they can only do this with inter league competitions..  If we want to see less "poaching" then players need to be able to stay at home.  Currently many areas are not set up to fully allow this as they are isolated and Club level.

I'm still torn around whether a strong league is required to produce stronger national teams. The team you mention there are obviously trying to hoover up younger players as a stepping stone to increasing interest and thus produce players through their youth structure from their communities but it's a long process with many pitfalls. I think the better way (and why not try both) would have been WR, and Beaumont, grasping the nettle around better fees for the away sides. Yes the old arguments about the cost of building and maintaining stadia like Twickenham but without the away side you make no money and they get a relative pittance. Clearly teams like NZ, Aus and SA would love that but it would more benefit the guys like Georgia, SAmoa etc who get very few home matches particularly against the big boys. If those teams were guaranteed better appearance money it's a good pull factor.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 16 Sep 2021, 9:17 am

RiscaGame wrote:I’d imagine if they weren’t capped, they weren’t wanted by their home union? So probably pretty easy to back up?

How can you come to that conclusion ? Just because they were not not capped ? Who's to say they would never be capped ?

I'm sorry that is quite a stretch.

Not wanted is a strong statement to make. Unless there is anything said that they were not wanted, then I think this is a bit of a reaching statement. Not really backing anything up is it ?

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 16 Sep 2021, 9:44 am

LordDowlais wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:I’d imagine if they weren’t capped, they weren’t wanted by their home union? So probably pretty easy to back up?

How can you come to that conclusion ? Just because they were not not capped ? Who's to say they would never be capped ?

I'm sorry that is quite a stretch.

Not wanted is a strong statement to make. Unless there is anything said that they were not wanted, then I think this is a bit of a reaching statement. Not really backing anything up is it ?

It kind of is though. There might be individual cases that are different, but a player generally knows if he's in with a chance of International recognition. For one, the coaches talk to a lot of players and players on the fridge might be given thing to work on. Int sides usually have these training camps pre-selection where large numbers come into the fold and then are filtered out.

If you're turning out every week for your club and hearing absolutely nothing....there's a fair chance you're not going to get a call-up.

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Post by BamBam Thu 16 Sep 2021, 9:53 am

Would that be the same Joe Cokanasiga who moved to England when he was 3?

Let's just look at Dowlais "list" for what it is - cry arsing that other home nations have been able to benefit from quality players choosing to play their rugby and make a life for themselves in other home nations than Wales.

Funny how the long list of Welsh attempts at project players didn't quite make it on to Dowlais' list - Parkes, McNicholl to name a couple.

Also quite amusing how he has no issue with the WRU policy of raiding through the holiday snaps of English players grandmothers

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 16 Sep 2021, 10:01 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:I’d imagine if they weren’t capped, they weren’t wanted by their home union? So probably pretty easy to back up?

How can you come to that conclusion ? Just because they were not not capped ? Who's to say they would never be capped ?

I'm sorry that is quite a stretch.

Not wanted is a strong statement to make. Unless there is anything said that they were not wanted, then I think this is a bit of a reaching statement. Not really backing anything up is it ?

It kind of is though. There might be individual cases that are different, but a player generally knows if he's in with a chance of International recognition. For one, the coaches talk to a lot of players and players on the fridge might be given thing to work on. Int sides usually have these training camps pre-selection where large numbers come into the fold and then are filtered out.

If you're turning out every week for your club and hearing absolutely nothing....there's a fair chance you're not going to get a call-up.

Yeah, thats a fair comment, but there is such a thing as a late bloomer, somebody who doesn't make it in their early twenties could get capped later on in their careers. There are numerous players that have been called up to test rugby towards the later part of there careers.

Look, it's just my opinion, I would scrap the grand parent rule, that we all take advantage of, and I would put residency to 10+ years to cover the people who come over early in life with parents.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 16 Sep 2021, 10:02 am

I come back to his England are poaching Welsh players of 2016. His views on Faletau are very different to Cokanasiga.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 16 Sep 2021, 10:07 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:I’d imagine if they weren’t capped, they weren’t wanted by their home union? So probably pretty easy to back up?

How can you come to that conclusion ? Just because they were not not capped ? Who's to say they would never be capped ?

I'm sorry that is quite a stretch.

Not wanted is a strong statement to make. Unless there is anything said that they were not wanted, then I think this is a bit of a reaching statement. Not really backing anything up is it ?

It kind of is though. There might be individual cases that are different, but a player generally knows if he's in with a chance of International recognition. For one, the coaches talk to a lot of players and players on the fridge might be given thing to work on. Int sides usually have these training camps pre-selection where large numbers come into the fold and then are filtered out.

If you're turning out every week for your club and hearing absolutely nothing....there's a fair chance you're not going to get a call-up.

Yeah, thats a fair comment, but there is such a thing as a late bloomer, somebody who doesn't make it in their early twenties could get capped later on in their careers. There are numerous players that have been called up to test rugby towards the later part of there careers.

Look, it's just my opinion, I would scrap the grand parent rule, that we all take advantage of, and I would put residency to 10+ years to cover the people who come over early in life with parents.

I think those are fair options, I doubt many would disagree that much. The late bloomers are probably more the exception than the rule though, most cases are quite clear cut I think.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 16 Sep 2021, 10:08 am

Ok gentlemen....chill out a bit. If you don't agree with a post, counter it. No need for little digs at the poster.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 16 Sep 2021, 10:11 am

You need to be able to point out inconsistencies to talk about posts in context. His consistency here is obvious.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 16 Sep 2021, 10:41 am

It's a general warning, lets all be nice to each other thumbsup

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Post by Old Man Thu 16 Sep 2021, 10:47 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:I’d imagine if they weren’t capped, they weren’t wanted by their home union? So probably pretty easy to back up?

How can you come to that conclusion ? Just because they were not not capped ? Who's to say they would never be capped ?

I'm sorry that is quite a stretch.

Not wanted is a strong statement to make. Unless there is anything said that they were not wanted, then I think this is a bit of a reaching statement. Not really backing anything up is it ?

It kind of is though. There might be individual cases that are different, but a player generally knows if he's in with a chance of International recognition. For one, the coaches talk to a lot of players and players on the fridge might be given thing to work on. Int sides usually have these training camps pre-selection where large numbers come into the fold and then are filtered out.

If you're turning out every week for your club and hearing absolutely nothing....there's a fair chance you're not going to get a call-up.

yep those players on the fridge need to get down from there and get busy in the gym laughing

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 16 Sep 2021, 11:05 am

Haha...good spot Wink

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Post by Brendan Thu 16 Sep 2021, 11:42 am

Old Man wrote:If more countries are looking to import South African players it will completely ruin our rugby. There has to be a point of saturation.


With the current system in SA you will be fine and keep the players you want.
You have your domestic league that will be linked up with European T2 so will be able to secure extra funding as needed just like them.
Your top teams are in the URC so will match the top nations clubs incomes.
Finally you will have the Champions and Challange Cup that will add the extras to keep the star players.

It's why it's important that the Americas, Asia and Oceania are able to do the same systems. If they don't NPC will go the way of the NRC and be a shopping window for other nations to pick up young players.

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