URC Round 4

First topic message reminder :

Round 4 already and some great games so far. Few of the South African teams getting on the board last weekend so let’s see if they continue that into this week.

Round fixtures (all kick offs BST)

FRIDAY, 15th OCTOBER 2021

Ulster v Emirates Lions- 19.35- BBC NI, RTÉ 2, Premier Sports 1, SuperSport
Dragons v DHL Stormers- 19.35- BBC Wales, SuperSport, Premier Sports 2, SuperSport

SATURDAY, 16th OCTOBER 2021

Zebre v Glasgow Warriors- 13.00- Mediaset, Premier Sports 1
Benetton v Ospreys- 15.05- Mediaset, S4C, TG4, Premier Sports 1
Leinster v Scarlets- 17.15- TG4, S4C, Premier Sports 2
Edinburgh v Vodacom Bulls- 17.15- Premier Sports 1, SuperSport
Munster v Connacht-19.35- RTÉ 2, Premier Sports 2
Cardiff v Cell C Sharks- 19:35- S4C, Premier Sports 1, SuperSport

Here goes the first penalty against the Bulls.

Excellent referee, thank you, players going off their feet

Good start from Edinburgh and an excellent try

Schoeman looks very pumped up to be playing against his old club!

Bulls have been poor starters in every match so far.

This cowpat of referees falling for players being held in needs sorting. If a player is struggling to get out there are obvious reasons

Another penalty to Edinburgh coming in from the side.

I bloody give up,

Both lineouts not working well

And then he ignores a clothesline tackle on Smith

This is turning into a crazy game!

Cross field kicks from the Bulls own line and it almost worked!

This referee reffed SA teams in earlier matches as well, he doesn't like SA teams much

Mark Bennett made two great tackles in that passage of play

Bulls need to get pissed off here

Scarlets struggling with the Leinster power.

Could be another long day with all the tackles they have to make

That's not going to improve Bismark's humour!

VDW got injured there as HT arrived, looked like a nasty one on the shoulder. No like for like FH replacement, so you would imagine James Lang slipping in there.

Thought the score was the wrong way round for a moment with one team's points scored by Immelman and van der Walt and the other team's by Smith.

John Smit is correct, referee has a preconceived idea that the Bulls infringe, only scrutinising what the Bulls do, and not Edinburgh.

Penalty try to Leinster.

Scarlets scrum under pressure, fear for them once the subs come on

Wow, Edinburgh demolish the Bulls scrum!

WP Nel still got a half hour left in the tank!

Ouch, bad miss from James Lang though, that could be costly

Edinburgh definitely got the Bulls scrum on toast now.

That was not expected

Scarlets playing better 2nd half and not throwing the towel in.

Good call from ref, that was an attempted hand off

Possible knock on for Leinster’s try???

The Oracle wrote:Possible knock on for Leinster’s try???

I thought that when they showed the replays

Interrupted by my dinner, but what a great win for Edinburgh

Scrum got on top and some great individual performances, especially in defence.

Brendan wrote:

Filo8 wrote:I'm guessing everyone on here didn't see the wide angle which showed no change of line by Botha. Benetton extremely lucky to not get a red card, but the better team held on to win in the end. After a horror start it was good to see a pretty much second side get the win out there.

If you call being 20pts ahead and just about get over the line a good win fair enough.  Ospreys have been poor for the most part but will not do well against the better teams.

Difficult to say when Ospreys have so many important players to come back in to that side. When they're missing players and not playing at their best they're still grinding out some wins against difficult opposition. Who is to say they won't do the same when some of those players return?
Players referenced include Tipuric, Lydiate, North, Collins, and of course some of the players rested today like Anscombe, Beard, and Jac Morgan.

Filo8 wrote:I'm guessing everyone on here didn't see the wide angle which showed no change of line by Botha. Benetton extremely lucky to not get a red card, but the better team held on to win in the end. After a horror start it was good to see a pretty much second side get the win out there.

Christ this is delusional. It was by no means anywhere near a second side and you were garbage (again) for long periods of the game. Something very wrong there when you have that many good players and are still shocking.

Filo8 wrote:

Difficult to say when Ospreys have so many important players to come back in to that side. When they're missing players and not playing at their best they're still grinding out some wins against difficult opposition. Who is to say they won't do the same when some of those players return?
Players referenced include Tipuric, Lydiate, North, Collins, and of course some of the players rested today like Anscombe, Beard, and Jac Morgan.

Every team has injuries and copes with them. If you’re that reliant on one or two players then what’s the point in having all the other internationals? They’re not doing much. You had some of those guys against the Sharks anyway and you lost badly.

A great win by Leinster tonight, but who is Scarlets’ defence coach? He’s starting to make Byron Hayward look good…

mikey_dragon wrote:

Filo8 wrote:I'm guessing everyone on here didn't see the wide angle which showed no change of line by Botha. Benetton extremely lucky to not get a red card, but the better team held on to win in the end. After a horror start it was good to see a pretty much second side get the win out there.

Christ this is delusional. It was by no means anywhere near a second side and you were garbage (again) for long periods of the game. Something very wrong there when you have that many good players and are still shocking.

1. Second choice
2. Second/Third
3. First choice
4. Second choice
5. First choice
6. Third choice
7. Third choice
8. Second choice
9. First choice
10. Second choice
11. Second choice
12. Arguable first choice at 12 for me (sharing the jersey with Watkin)
13. Watkin is probably better at 12 going forward with Collins at 13
14. Second choice at 14
15. Second choice at 15
Seems like a pretty rotated side to me, I mean you're probably the expert though.

Scarlets really struggling. Peel needs to act fast or he’s going to be worried about his job!

Filo8 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Filo8 wrote:I'm guessing everyone on here didn't see the wide angle which showed no change of line by Botha. Benetton extremely lucky to not get a red card, but the better team held on to win in the end. After a horror start it was good to see a pretty much second side get the win out there.

Christ this is delusional. It was by no means anywhere near a second side and you were garbage (again) for long periods of the game. Something very wrong there when you have that many good players and are still shocking.

1. Second choice
2. Second/Third
3. First choice
4. Second choice
5. First choice
6. Third choice
7. Third choice
8. Second choice
9. First choice
10. Second choice
11. Second choice
12. Arguable first choice at 12 for me (sharing the jersey with Watkin)
13. Watkin is probably better at 12 going forward with Collins at 13
14. Second choice at 14
15. Second choice at 15
Seems like a pretty rotated side to me, I mean you're probably the expert though.

As I said, delusional.

Watkin... the guy just can't play well at 12 or 13. Thankfully he wasn't in the Wales squad this time.

Connacht hooker just kicked a 50 22. Not sure we will see that again for a while

Brendan wrote:Connacht hooker just kicked a 50 22.  Not sure we will see that again for a while

Hooker then throws it not straight into the lineout just to remind himself of his actual job

mikey_dragon wrote:

Filo8 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Filo8 wrote:I'm guessing everyone on here didn't see the wide angle which showed no change of line by Botha. Benetton extremely lucky to not get a red card, but the better team held on to win in the end. After a horror start it was good to see a pretty much second side get the win out there.

Christ this is delusional. It was by no means anywhere near a second side and you were garbage (again) for long periods of the game. Something very wrong there when you have that many good players and are still shocking.

1. Second choice
2. Second/Third
3. First choice
4. Second choice
5. First choice
6. Third choice
7. Third choice
8. Second choice
9. First choice
10. Second choice
11. Second choice
12. Arguable first choice at 12 for me (sharing the jersey with Watkin)
13. Watkin is probably better at 12 going forward with Collins at 13
14. Second choice at 14
15. Second choice at 15
Seems like a pretty rotated side to me, I mean you're probably the expert though.

As I said, delusional.

Watkin... the guy just can't play well at 12 or 13. Thankfully he wasn't in the Wales squad this time.

Putting a word in italics doesn't make it any more factual. How many second choice players do you need for it to be considered a second choice side, in your view?

Of course it does. Maybe you're just wrong? I mean who even calls it a second side when you have Bradley Davies and Cuthbert to call upon. Cuthbert would be first choice anyway, as you don't have any good wingers including your other first choice (Morgan). Rhodri Jones in the Wales squad over Smith, second choice-second side mind... I'm not sure if it's because there is something in the water, but I often see this delusion and arrogance from Ospreys' fans.

Lydiate isn't your best 6 and should not have been in the Wales squad. So are you really this reliant on him and Tipuric? Because that's not good. Collins is a class player, North is a 13. Anyone would miss those two, but the team is just full of internationals. You're not very good if you are reliant on two players to put in a good performance. There's depth at lock and back-row, but Beard and Jac Morgan still featured last week so they probably wouldn't have made a difference today. I wouldn't consider it a second choice side when teams have good squad depth. Opreys have depth, they're just playing well below the sum of their parts (like every season).

mikey_dragon wrote:Of course it does. Maybe you're just wrong? I mean who even calls it a second side when you have Bradley Davies and Cuthbert to call upon. Cuthbert would be first choice anyway, as you don't have any good wingers including your other first choice (Morgan). Rhodri Jones in the Wales squad over Smith, second choice-second side mind... I'm not sure if it's because there is something in the water, but I often see this delusion and arrogance from Ospreys' fans.

Lydiate isn't your best 6 and should not have been in the Wales squad. So are you really this reliant on him and Tipuric? Because that's not good. Collins is a class player, North is a 13. Anyone would miss those two, but the team is just full of internationals. You're not very good if you are reliant on two players to put in a good performance. There's depth at lock and back-row, but Beard and Jac Morgan still featured last week so they probably wouldn't have made a difference today. I wouldn't consider it a second choice side when teams have good squad depth. Opreys have depth, they're just playing well below the sum of their parts (like every season).

Ospreys are definitely not playing as well as they can, nobody has said that they are. However they are 3 wins from 4, you are acting as though they have just been beaten rather than securing a BP win away from home.
As for the comments about the wingers, Giles and North would be our current first choice unless they do follow Wales in putting North in the centre. You also cannot seriously think that Rhodri Jones is our first choice LH given the stats. Just because some of those players would be considered first choice at your team does not make them first choice for ourselves. Depth is great, but you cannot argue that a certain player is not considered a second choice player (when everyone is fit) just because they are experienced. Would you consider Cory Allen to be a first choice player at the Dragons? He's a Welsh international after all..

No they’re not, and I can’t remember the last time that they did? Still, the supposed fans keep crowing about being the ‘premier region’ (which isn’t saying much). Again, beating Welsh teams doesn’t make you good, neither does beating an Italian team - I rate Benetton but still… and you let in 4 tries.
Giles has been injured for years. How can anyone claim that he’s first choice? I don’t rate Rhodri Jones but Pivac and Booth seem to think he’s the best choice   haha oh dear, you currently have less internationals selected than Dragons, so it would be extremely delusional to believe that Jones would be first choice for us.
Well I’ve already answered that, due to the squad depth. And I think you misunderstand me if you’re trying to make that silly point about Cory Allen. Try reading it again, maybe this time you’ll get it.

mikey_dragon wrote:No they’re not, and I can’t remember the last time that they did? Still, the supposed fans keep crowing about being the ‘premier region’ (which isn’t saying much). Again, beating Welsh teams doesn’t make you good, neither does beating an Italian team - I rate Benetton but still… and you let in 4 tries.
Giles has been injured for years. How can anyone claim that he’s first choice? I don’t rate Rhodri Jones but Pivac and Booth seem to think he’s the best choice   haha oh dear, you currently have less internationals selected than Dragons, so it would be extremely delusional to believe that Jones would be first choice for us.
Well I’ve already answered that, due to the squad depth. And I think you misunderstand me if you’re trying to make that silly point about Cory Allen. Try reading it again, maybe this time you’ll get it.

I've not seen a single Ospreys fan saying that they are the 'premier region' based off a decent result in Treviso, I think there's maybe a bit of a chip on the shoulder there from yourself Mikey. Good luck for the rest of the season, not that you guys need any luck with all those current internationals being selected. I'm sure you'll turn it around soon enough.

Whatever we think of the referees in the NH, it isn't going to change, we can only hope that the NH referees' perception of the SA teams change over time.

Therefor the SA coaches need to find a way to adapt to these referees.

As for the performances of the SA teams, their biggest challenge is how to retain their best players and having a system to keep developing talent.

ARTICLE

This article shows the challenge the SA teams face in retaining players. I doubt it will ever improve, I think in future the SA teams in the URC will simply just become a travelling showcase of talent available to purchase, better than any online shop the European coaches can visit.

Filo8 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:No they’re not, and I can’t remember the last time that they did? Still, the supposed fans keep crowing about being the ‘premier region’ (which isn’t saying much). Again, beating Welsh teams doesn’t make you good, neither does beating an Italian team - I rate Benetton but still… and you let in 4 tries.
Giles has been injured for years. How can anyone claim that he’s first choice? I don’t rate Rhodri Jones but Pivac and Booth seem to think he’s the best choice   haha oh dear, you currently have less internationals selected than Dragons, so it would be extremely delusional to believe that Jones would be first choice for us.
Well I’ve already answered that, due to the squad depth. And I think you misunderstand me if you’re trying to make that silly point about Cory Allen. Try reading it again, maybe this time you’ll get it.

I've not seen a single Ospreys fan saying that they are the 'premier region' based off a decent result in Treviso, I think there's maybe a bit of a chip on the shoulder there from yourself Mikey. Good luck for the rest of the season, not that you guys need any luck with all those current internationals being selected. I'm sure you'll turn it around soon enough.

They say it every season. Even you were of the view “we’re the only region in the champs cup that’s good enough for me..” - whilst not acknowledging your record that season. Shear delusion and arrogance.
Yeah that’s correct . Still, at least we don’t claim to be the premier region, neither set of fans has the right to. I guess the one set is just less delusional than the other.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Filo8 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:No they’re not, and I can’t remember the last time that they did? Still, the supposed fans keep crowing about being the ‘premier region’ (which isn’t saying much). Again, beating Welsh teams doesn’t make you good, neither does beating an Italian team - I rate Benetton but still… and you let in 4 tries.
Giles has been injured for years. How can anyone claim that he’s first choice? I don’t rate Rhodri Jones but Pivac and Booth seem to think he’s the best choice   haha oh dear, you currently have less internationals selected than Dragons, so it would be extremely delusional to believe that Jones would be first choice for us.
Well I’ve already answered that, due to the squad depth. And I think you misunderstand me if you’re trying to make that silly point about Cory Allen. Try reading it again, maybe this time you’ll get it.

I've not seen a single Ospreys fan saying that they are the 'premier region' based off a decent result in Treviso, I think there's maybe a bit of a chip on the shoulder there from yourself Mikey. Good luck for the rest of the season, not that you guys need any luck with all those current internationals being selected. I'm sure you'll turn it around soon enough.

They say it every season. Even you were of the view “we’re the only region in the champs cup that’s good enough for me..” - whilst not acknowledging your record that season. Shear delusion and arrogance.
Yeah that’s correct . Still, at least we don’t claim to be the premier region, neither set of fans has the right to. I guess the one set is just less delusional than the other.

Where did that quote come from? You can't call someone delusional, then make up a quote and attribute it to them to try and make a point. You seem to have a big dislike of Ospreys and hold them to a higher standard than your own team. If you focused this much vitriol on Dragons recent performances maybe they could become the best team in Wales one day.

Was just reading an article, where Connacht coach Andy Friend isn't overly happy with some of the refereeing, from the weekend.

Within the article, it seems like the head of referees (was Greg Garner) is no more. That's a bit of a farce. Not that he did a lot, but somebody should surely have the responsibility of improving the standards.

Old Man wrote:Whatever we think of the referees in the NH, it isn't going to change, we can only hope that the NH referees' perception of the SA teams change over time.

Therefor the SA coaches need to find a way to adapt to these referees.

As for the performances of the SA teams, their biggest challenge is how to retain their best players and having a system to keep developing talent.

ARTICLE

This article shows the challenge the SA teams face in retaining players. I doubt it will ever improve, I think in future the SA teams in the URC will simply just become a travelling showcase of talent available to purchase, better than any online shop the European coaches can visit.

I don't think all is lost but more that SA is turning the corner and need to build on the foundations rather than think they are the finished article.

1. This is the first year of URC money and are down fans and competition money plus reduced RC money from last year.
2. Next year they get another jump of money from european competitions that will allow them to feed in more money.
3. The external forces are reduced because of the lower Prem Cap and also the French % of teams in the T14.  SR also being worth pennies means more NZ/Oz players filling up Japan and even Europe as they now become more value for money.

The URC nations follow 3 different paths to manage their money and I would suggest the SARU will follow 1 of them.
Wales - Once you get capped you must return to the URC or you won't get picked
Italy/Scotland - We pay X and you will get Y as a benefit but if you want more we will still give you caps but go overseas.
Ireland - play in Ireland to play for Ireland

SA produces loads of players.  Their main focus needs to be keeping as many u23s in the system for as long as possible.  That will then allow the 4 URC teams to pick players they want.

If the SA teams can bring their wage cap up to €5m euro with the bigger income they should be able to keep hold of most players except the super stars like Kolbe who is best left in France for that money.

SA should also offer 1-2 year deal for players looking to retire as they bring so much knowledge that needs to be fed back in to the SA knowledge bank.

First year was always going to be hard but Sharks somehow can afford their squad which is as good as most top squads in Europe. They have 13 players around the SA team/squad which shows their level

Scarlets are in trouble. They have been shockingly bad the last couple of matches. Couple more losses like this and their season for Silverware is over.

2 of the next three are in S.Africa as well and given the massive improvement from those sides over the last 2 weeks I can't see them going there in 35 degree heat and getting wins.

If Scarlets do end up losing they may as well start giving outings to the youngsters they have on their books a go. They need to replace pretty much their entire set of forwards at the club. The only ones I would be keeping is Wyn Jones, Samson Lee, Morgan Jones, Jac Price & Josh Macleod. The problem they have not planned for this so not sure where exactly you would start to replace some 20 forwards at the club and remain competitive.

Hard to judge the backs but given you cant get or keep the ball seems somewhat silly to spend any big money on what you could do with it if they actually managed to keep hold of it. Its like buying a BMW without wheels.

I don't know whether SARU will be able to afford a 5mil Euro salary cap, that would mean an increase of just under 50% on the current Cap.

Keeping under 23 players are getting more and more challenging when you look at players already being scouted at Craven week (under 18) and grand fathering in, great grand fathering in, a couple even qualify under the colony of 1652

As for only capping players that play for URC teams, that horse has bolted.

Jake White has started the trend of recruiting senior players past their peak back into the Bulls fold, Cheetahs did the same, and that is a valid point as the rugby intellect, experience of those players are vital to developing young squads.

In the past some players would play in the Japanese top 14 but then would still be available for some part of the Super Rugby tournament, not sure whether it will work now.

I think for the SA teams do be competitive with the Irish teams will be challenging and take more than a few years. Getting to the necessary income revenues to increase Salary Caps isn't going to happen overnight.

Welshmushroom wrote:Scarlets are in trouble. They have been shockingly bad the last couple of matches.  Couple more losses like this and their season for Silverware is over.

2 of the next three are in S.Africa as well and given the massive improvement from those sides over the last 2 weeks I can't see them going there in 35 degree heat and getting wins.

If Scarlets do end up losing they may as well start giving outings to the youngsters they have on their books a go.  They need to replace pretty much their entire set of forwards at the club.  The only ones I would be keeping is Wyn Jones, Samson Lee, Morgan Jones, Jac Price & Josh Macleod.  The problem they have not planned for this so not sure where exactly you would start to replace some 20 forwards at the club and remain competitive.  

Hard to judge the backs but given you cant get or keep the ball seems somewhat silly to spend any big money on what you could do with it if they actually managed to keep hold of it.  Its like buying a BMW without wheels.

I have been looking at the teams other than the Irish, and to be honest I think the race for 4-8 is wide open, the teams in my view are better matched than expected. I looked at the Super Rugby Comp over the past decade and to qualify there you needed around 2.5 log points per match, so to be in contention you need around 45 points. Iknow this season there are guarantees that one team in each group of four gets to the play offs, but from next season it isn't the case.

The biggest challenge for the teams is qualifying for home quarter finals, winning away is much tougher. I think the first season of the URC is pretty much Ireland's to take.

We will see what happens next season.

Welshmushroom wrote:Scarlets are in trouble. They have been shockingly bad the last couple of matches.  Couple more losses like this and their season for Silverware is over.

2 of the next three are in S.Africa as well and given the massive improvement from those sides over the last 2 weeks I can't see them going there in 35 degree heat and getting wins.

If Scarlets do end up losing they may as well start giving outings to the youngsters they have on their books a go.  They need to replace pretty much their entire set of forwards at the club.  The only ones I would be keeping is Wyn Jones, Samson Lee, Morgan Jones, Jac Price & Josh Macleod.  The problem they have not planned for this so not sure where exactly you would start to replace some 20 forwards at the club and remain competitive.  

Hard to judge the backs but given you cant get or keep the ball seems somewhat silly to spend any big money on what you could do with it if they actually managed to keep hold of it.  Its like buying a BMW without wheels.

That would be quite an overhaul mind. Looks like it could be a season or two before Peel manages to turn things around.