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Premiership Round 7

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westisbest
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formerly known as Sam
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Post by lostinwales Fri 29 Oct 2021, 10:25 am

First topic message reminder :

Beats working I guess

Friday
Gloucester Exeter Chiefs 19:45

Saturday - all 15:00
Bath Wasps
London Irish Bristol
Northampton Saints Leicester Tigers
Worcester Warriors Sale

Sunday (very tasty) 15:00
Harlequins Saracens

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Post by Poorfour Mon 01 Nov 2021, 11:02 am

For those watching on tv, what's people's view of Koch's hit on Allan? We couldn't see if from where we were sitting, but a lot of Quins fans online are incensed that it was dismissed as a shove by the TMO.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 01 Nov 2021, 11:07 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure how Saracens have come away with this.

They took the points when on offer.

And yet it swung in the end of Harlequins trying to take the points from a kick missing and then pens.

Sometimes you have to judge on the tactics given and not assume a positive outcome the other way as demonstration of a mistake. Like Robshaw in the world cup, would Farrel have kicked it?

Interesting hearing big Whitelock after the Kiwi game...where the Kiwis did take a few kicks. The scoreboard building up puts pressure on the opposition.

I think keeping the scoreboard ticking is an underrated skill in a flyhalf. Wilko was the master at it with the drop goal ability he had. Made sure of an excellent red zone efficiency.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 01 Nov 2021, 12:25 pm

Poorfour wrote:For those watching on tv, what's people's view of Koch's hit on Allan? We couldn't see if from where we were sitting, but a lot of Quins fans online are incensed that it was dismissed as a shove by the TMO.

Tmo said no arms only but it was late and yes without arms. Probably a low level yellow.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 01 Nov 2021, 12:26 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure how Saracens have come away with this.

They took the points when on offer.

And yet it swung in the end of Harlequins trying to take the points from a kick missing and then pens.

Sometimes you have to judge on the tactics given and not assume a positive outcome the other way as demonstration of a mistake. Like Robshaw in the world cup, would Farrel have kicked it?

Interesting hearing big Whitelock after the Kiwi game...where the Kiwis did take a few kicks. The scoreboard building up puts pressure on the opposition.

I think keeping the scoreboard ticking is an underrated skill in a flyhalf. Wilko was the master at it with the drop goal ability he had. Made sure of an excellent red zone efficiency.

Points from the red zone are great but my point was they didn't have their front line kicker on the pitch for a good deal of time and when they went to take the points they didn't get them.

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Post by MichaelT Mon 01 Nov 2021, 1:06 pm

Does anyone know what the story is with Chris Ashton? Seems to be finished at Worcester, possible incident with a team-mate (Matt Garvey maybe?).

I quite like him on the BBC podcast, he seems willing to make fun of himself and not take everything too seriously, but problems definitely seem to follow him wherever he goes.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 01 Nov 2021, 2:03 pm

It's the third contract in a row that Ashton has left early isn't it? Sale, Quins and Wuss. I really rated Ashton on his day, his support lines were sublime. Three contracts in a row ending early for varying reasons does suggest that Ashton could do with looking at what the common denominator is though.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 01 Nov 2021, 2:11 pm

The comments I have seen say he's 'unavailable for selection'. That Matt Garvey is also mentioned but that he is available for selection.

Worcs are not in a good state either, victory over Sale notwithstanding.

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Post by Rugby Fan Mon 01 Nov 2021, 2:51 pm

king_carlos wrote:It's the third contract in a row that Ashton has left early isn't it? Sale, Quins and Wuss. I really rated Ashton on his day, his support lines were sublime. Three contracts in a row ending early for varying reasons does suggest that Ashton could do with looking at what the common denominator is though.

I'll always think Ashton was a missed opportunity for England. In the opening moments of England's 2011 World Cup Quarter final against France, Tuilagi made a break down the left wing, and Ashton read it perfectly. You can see him calling for the ball inside (at the 7:00 min mark), and a pass could well have seen him score.


A year later, in 2012, Ashton tracked Tuilagi in the same way, and, this time, Manu saw him (at the 2:10 mark), and we saw a famous victory.


Ashton knew how to run lines which would capitalize on players who could make breaks. He says scrum halves run his lines these days, so they have taken some of his lunch. For several years, he was one of the best in the world but we lost him to Lancaster's insistence that he stay on his wing, and some bizarro bans. At least two were harsh decisions (including the one he got a Sale in pre-season), and badly timed. Those bans also meant he never had mitigating factors for later bans, so they accumulated.

The chance to restart his England career proved to be his undoing. After that Barbarians game, when he showed he was still a top finisher, he needed to be back in England, and went with Sale because he's a Wigan man, and wanted his family closer to home. Ashton could easily have stayed another season or two in Toulon. That pre-season ban scuppered his England chances (which were an outside bet anyway). It's all been very messy since then.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 01 Nov 2021, 3:19 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure how Saracens have come away with this.

They took the points when on offer.

And yet it swung in the end of Harlequins trying to take the points from a kick missing and then pens.

Sometimes you have to judge on the tactics given and not assume a positive outcome the other way as demonstration of a mistake. Like Robshaw in the world cup, would Farrel have kicked it?

Interesting hearing big Whitelock after the Kiwi game...where the Kiwis did take a few kicks. The scoreboard building up puts pressure on the opposition.

I think keeping the scoreboard ticking is an underrated skill in a flyhalf. Wilko was the master at it with the drop goal ability he had. Made sure of an excellent red zone efficiency.

Points from the red zone are great but my point was they didn't have their front line kicker on the pitch for a good deal of time and when they went to take the points they didn't get them.

It's tough for young kickers sometimes, quite a few start off with iffy records and then go onto be reliable kickers later on. I felt Quins lacked a little leadership and composure at times. The Care drop goal being a prime example, Quins in the opposition 22 with penalty advantage and you go for the drop kick? Odd call. 

With Lewies back that should be a boost going forward, he seems a good leader and a very underrated part of their success.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 01 Nov 2021, 3:36 pm

Seen Ford go for the drop goal a few times with pen advantage too.

I think no matter what you do have to back the players on the pitch to know the score, the time, any implications of the match (thinking that world cup game where no one seemed to know they needed 4 tries before Vunipola scored) but also the feel. It is tempting to say well if we'd gone for the kick it would have been scored etc, not necessarily though and percentages over the season you'd probably say that that style would suit Harlequins more. Other teams racking the 3 makes sense.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 01 Nov 2021, 4:20 pm

Ford hasn't had the Quins attack to play with. It just seemed an odd thing for a free scoring Quins team to do. Especially with a penalty in front of the posts. At worst throw it to Green and see if he can create some magic.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 01 Nov 2021, 5:20 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Ford hasn't had the Quins attack to play with. It just seemed an odd thing for a free scoring Quins team to do. Especially with a penalty in front of the posts. At worst throw it to Green and see if he can create some magic.

He does it for England too. Often criticised but I guess it gives you the free chance to try something in a game situation. Works at drop outs after all.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 01 Nov 2021, 5:32 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Ford hasn't had the Quins attack to play with. It just seemed an odd thing for a free scoring Quins team to do. Especially with a penalty in front of the posts. At worst throw it to Green and see if he can create some magic.

He does it for England too. Often criticised but I guess it gives you the free chance to try something in a game situation. Works at drop outs after all.

Ford's go to move is normally the crossfield off of penalty advantage in the 22. Don't tire the players out with phases try for an immediate all or nothing.

The drop goal off the drop out was a thing of beauty, twice as far out as Care's effort and penalty advantage cover if he tried something and made an error. Plus Tigers had less players at that point in the game so banking the three made a lot of sense.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 01 Nov 2021, 5:50 pm

And cares go to is normally a quick pen so all good I guess.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 01 Nov 2021, 7:19 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:And cares go to is normally a quick pen so all good I guess.

Yeah I'm surprised he didn't go for one of those. I reckon he could have caught Sarries out.

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Post by Poorfour Tue 02 Nov 2021, 8:51 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:And cares go to is normally a quick pen so all good I guess.

Yeah I'm surprised he didn't go for one of those. I reckon he could have caught Sarries out.

I think by that point they may have been losing faith that they would get the rub of the green on decisions. The drop goal was still probably the wrong call, but Care's body language had a real "eff it, I'll take the points" feel to it. Smith would almost certainly have seen Green and gone for the try, but that's the nature of international windows, and why we have playoffs.

What I took from the match is that Quins can live with Sarries' power game. The overall feel was a lot like the second league games against Bristol and Exeter last year - Quins lost, but will have come away knowing what they need to do to win.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 03 Nov 2021, 8:56 am

Poorfour wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:And cares go to is normally a quick pen so all good I guess.

Yeah I'm surprised he didn't go for one of those. I reckon he could have caught Sarries out.

I think by that point they may have been losing faith that they would get the rub of the green on decisions. The drop goal was still probably the wrong call, but Care's body language had a real "eff it, I'll take the points" feel to it. Smith would almost certainly have seen Green and gone for the try, but that's the nature of international windows, and why we have playoffs.

What I took from the match is that Quins can live with Sarries' power game. The overall feel was a lot like the second league games against Bristol and Exeter last year - Quins lost, but will have come away knowing what they need to do to win.

The beauty of Quins in full flight attack is that you can turn it on home or away. No big worry over home advantage. Top 4 is getting competitive for this season. Quins will want to hit the ground running after the international period. Tigers Vs Quins is coming up just after the international period as well which should be a cracker.

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