The scandal!

In rugbyrama today there was an article discussing  the South African teams playing in the Heineken and challenge cup next years. What amazed me was the poll included in the article. In the multiple choice poll the first option was so extreme that I laughed when I read it. Then I found out that 71% of the 16,000 rugby fans who had voted agreed with it. That the SA teams playing in Europe was a scandal, unnatural/ distorting the competition.

Now in my innocence I thought that fans would like new clubs and new competition but clearly I’m very, very wrong. At least about how the French will like it. If the majority of the public hate the idea this could cause real problems. Matches could easily be boycotted by fans. And what if the French clubs turn against it too?

What do you all think and do you care to vote?

https://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/champions-cup/2020-2021/champions-cup-l-epcr-confirme-l-arrivee-des-equipes-sud-africaines-en-coupes-d-europe-avec-un-invite_sto8969294/story.shtml teams next year in the Heineken cup.

How did the Cheetahs qualify for the Challenge Cup?

I must admit I don't like all the South African teams playing in the European cups...

GeordieFalcon wrote:I must admit I don't like all the South African teams playing in the European cups...

its not all of them

We have 14 Provinces.

All jokes aside,I understand the apprehension of teams from another continent joining a European based tournament, but we must understand that rugby is a professional sport competing for Dollars against other codes. Money flows where it finds the biggest market, and reading the press release it doesn't seem the ERC is going to stop their endeavour of expanding.

I was not keen on us joining the URC, but I got over it. Wanted or not there is a natural pathway to the Champions Cup through the URC, imagine you tell the SA teams they can't qualify for further spoils, the European clubs are keen to have South Africans in their clubs to bolster their squad, but not keen to have SA teams? A bit hypocritical I would suggest.

Also, you remove the SA teams from qualification and replace them with the next three on the URC log, thus weakening the strength of the Champions Cup.

Yes not all of them

Not sure having South Africans in your team but not wanting the South African teams in the European competitions is hypocritical.

South Africans are amongst the best in the world we want their players in our teams...but it's a European competition...I personally (and I may be solely alone) would rather they weren't in it.

Anyway it's happening so I better get used to it.

It is merely a stepping stone for SA to eventually join the 6N.

The three biggest Union markets in SA, France and England joining together will unstoppable, commercially.

I know commercially the joining the Six Nations is attractive, but I would draw the line there. SA need to stay in the Rugby Championship

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yes not all of them

Not sure having South Africans in your team but not wanting the South African teams in the European competitions is hypocritical.

South Africans are amongst the best in the world we want their players in our teams...but it's a European competition...I personally (and I may be solely alone) would rather they weren't in it.

Anyway it's happening so I better get used to it.

international rugby for now remains the cash cows of pro rugby, the club competitions need to expand to be sustainable, and that is why although not keen on joining the urc in the beginning understand it is the only way to keep pro rugby sustainable.

I think it will be really good for both URC and EPCR.

The ground rules were set in 2014 when the Champions Cup format was agreed. It was becoming a competition between 3 leagues and no longer the 6 countries when it was founded.

The performance of the SA teams in the URC this season, and now being properly involved in EPCR comps next season will add value to the URC and its upcoming TV/Broadcast negotiations for the league next season.

It will also give the EPCR honchos a kick up the fundamentals to secure a better deal in their TV negotiations and provide more funding to SARU and the other unions in URC.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yes not all of them

Not sure having South Africans in your team but not wanting the South African teams in the European competitions is hypocritical.

South Africans are amongst the best in the world we want their players in our teams...but it's a European competition...I personally (and I may be solely alone) would rather they weren't in it.

Anyway it's happening so I better get used to it.

You're most certainly not alone. This is just another step for the EPCR to finally put this once great competition into complete irrelevancecy. They've ready achieved that with the challenge Cup and now they've made the group stages in the HC a complete joke.

The 3rd tier competition that was promised is completely gone. Luckily rugby Europe is doing their job for them by setting up a third European comp for tier 2 sides, hopefully these can get promotion to the challenge Cup eventually.

The European Cup should be a cup competition reflecting the 3 major leagues played here. And so if the SA sides are the ones finishing in those top spots they should earn their right to play on the next seasons comp. Not much point giving it to also rans.

So far no one has voted for the scandal on this forum. So maybe it’s just in France they’re really against this idea.

I get a lot of people don't like the idea of SA clubs in the URC or the Euro Rugby competition.  But, I think this was inevitable once the Kiwis threw SA on the dung heap (at least that's how I interpret what happened).  Outside of the fact that the 'Euro' Rugby is not exclusively Euro anymore, I'm really not sure I understand the objections.  Some people have suggested inserting Georgia in the Six Nations as a replacement for Italy.  But Georgia ain't in Europe either.....

The Heineken Cup, to avoid using the term Euro, will now be the unquestioned pre-eminent club competition in the world.  More diverse teams with different players and more styles of play will make everyone involved batter.  I also think this will bring in more interest which drives the ultimate factor here, making more money for everyone.  Except maybe the Kiwis and Aussies, and that will be a problem to be dealt with in the not too distant future.  

Finally, I don't think this is the wedge to bring the Springboks into the 6 Nations.  There is simply no room in the calendar, plus the the clubs, especially in England and France would have a hairball.  If anything, this will give the SARU leverage with SANZAAR.

I’m with you Doctor Grey. I only see advantages to including SA teams in the European/ H cup. But on rugbyrama the vote is now at 26,000 and 71% of rugby fans are dead against it. If French fans start boycotting games or protesting then the French clubs, who doubtless don’t want more competition, these clubs will put presseue on the EPCR to get the SA teams out of it.

I don’t want SA teams joining the 6 nations but mainly because that would weaken rugby in Australia and NZ and even if it would be exciting I don’t think the 6 nations needs SA involved to have a great and profitable competition . Australia and NZ really do.

On the subject of the break up, I keep reading different versions of what happened. Did NZ boot SA out of super rugby or did they have no choice because of covid? We’re the SARU already planning on moving their super rugby teams north or were they forced? NZ and SA fans each tell a very different story around this. Maybe I should post this as a different topic.

This is purely my personal opinion.

There is a bit of history in SANZAAR.

I am not convinced the ARU ever really wanted SA in Super Rugby, but both NZRU and the ARU wanted the equal share of revenue brought in by SA, even though SA brought in by far the most revenue and agreed to split it three ways, until I think around 2014 when the last super 14 was played.

At the newexpansion things started falling apart and for various reasons the relationship got strained.

SA at that stage must have had some inclination that someone in Europe was open to the idea of SA teams playing in Europe.

There was also an incident in by memory 1998 emails were floating around by Bryce Lawrence's dad (remember the controversial 2011 QF) who at the time was in charge of referreeing in SANZAAR that the were going to get the Jaapies (SA) but by mistake copied the email to SARU.

It was kept under wraps very quickly, but that, plus continuous strain between the Unions leads me to believe everyone was looking at a way out.

the Aussie media and fans have been ctritical of SA participation for quite a few years as well and due to Covid restrictions NZRU saw the opportunity they were waiting for.

I think once SARU were no longer prepared to share revenue evenlythe writing was on the wall, losing revenue share, timezones etc meant they no longer saw benefit in keeping SA around.

They do however have little choice but to hope SA stays part of the RC.

Thats roughly my take.

Aussies and Kiwis wanted Saffers money but not so keen on SA itself.

Thanks guys. I’m surprised that you think that Aus wanted SA out of super rugby. That idea actually amazes me given that of those three countries they alone lack a strong domestic league to fall back on as it were. I thought that they needed super rugby more than anyone and would be happy to have SA sides to compete with.  Is there some cultural dislike behind their media’s turn against SA. sides in super rugby do you think or any practical reasons?

I hadn’t heard about the email scandal. That would certainly sour relationships.

That there were arguments over how the money would be divided is unsurprising. That SA wasn’t accommodated is surprising though. Super rugby was a really successful competition that benefited all involved. SA having a bigger share still sounds like a better option than not having their teams play at all. Surely the drop in revenue has been significant since they left. SA sides seemed to have the worst travel schedule from what I remember. The equal split in revenue sounds like something garunteed to cause agro.

I really hope that the URC works a a replacement for SA and it becomes popular there. And that no similar divisions arise within it. Pro rugby is a tricky thing to keep solvent in almost every country and we need each other on club and country level to keep the sport alive and well. Here’s hoping. If the French and maybe the English decide they don’t want these teams playing in the H Cup would SARU still want their teams in the URC?.

The South African teams in the 'Premier' competition in Europe is a joke.

A South African team in European Competition whilst not even competing in a European league is nothing short of a disgrace.

So the URC isn't an European Competition?

Old Man wrote:So the URC isn't an European Competition?

I'm not sure of the relevance of the URC here, sorry.

The invite (cheetahs was it?) is a bit of a mickey take tbf. But it's the same as having that Welsh team in there simply for being Welsh.

RugbyFan100 wrote:The South African teams in the 'Premier' competition in Europe is a joke.

A South African team in European Competition whilst not even competing in a European league is nothing short of a disgrace.

I think its great that SA teams are involved. They have added a lot in my view to Europe's premier league to date, the URC and to be fair there are already a large volume of SA players who have played in and won the Heineken cup already so no harm in them having their own team.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Old Man wrote:So the URC isn't an European Competition?

I'm not sure of the relevance of the URC here, sorry.

The URC is relevant because 1/3 of the teams that quakify for the champions Cup qualify through the URC,

Collapse2005 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:The South African teams in the 'Premier' competition in Europe is a joke.

A South African team in European Competition whilst not even competing in a European league is nothing short of a disgrace.

I think its great that SA teams are involved. They have added a lot in my view to Europe's premier league to date, the URC and to be fair there are already a large volume of SA players who have played in and won the Heineken cup already so no harm in them having their own team.
 

plenty of kiwis too. shall we invite the crusaders?

While we're at it - invite the all blacks to the 6 nations yeah? That follows your logic, so I assume you'll be all for it - they'd improve the competition after all.

Old Man wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Old Man wrote:So the URC isn't an European Competition?

I'm not sure of the relevance of the URC here, sorry.

The URC is relevant because 1/3 of the teams that quakify for the champions Cup qualify through the URC,

One of the teams that has been handed a slot for European competition doesn't even play in a league competition in Europe. That is a disgrace.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Old Man wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Old Man wrote:So the URC isn't an European Competition?

I'm not sure of the relevance of the URC here, sorry.

The URC is relevant because 1/3 of the teams that quakify for the champions Cup qualify through the URC,

One of the teams that has been handed a slot for European competition doesn't even play in a league competition in Europe. That is a disgrace.

So you have an issue with the Cheetahs being invited. That doesn't include South African teams, just one.

Old Man wrote: That doesn't include South African teams, just one.

I don't really know where to start with that sentence. ^

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Old Man wrote: That doesn't include South African teams, just one.

I don't really know where to start with that sentence. ^

you said you have an issue with South African teams in European champions Tournament.

Bulls, Sharks and Stormers have qualified through the URC, one has been invited.

Thus I would summise it isn't the team(s) as in plural you have an issue with, but the one team() the Cheetahs.

RugbyFan100 wrote:The South African teams in the 'Premier' competition in Europe is a joke.

A South African team in European Competition whilst not even competing in a European league is nothing short of a disgrace.

The Cheetahs have been desperate to get into an international competition as their continued sponsorship with Toyota relies on them competing in a multi national comp. They even made up a challenge tournament last year, which included a brand new team from Spain (Barcelona Diables) and a club from Romania, just to keep sponsors happy. Bizarre situation that has eventually landed them here. The EPCR has already made the challenge cup completely irrelevant so they may as well chuck anyone in at this stage.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:The South African teams in the 'Premier' competition in Europe is a joke.

A South African team in European Competition whilst not even competing in a European league is nothing short of a disgrace.

The Cheetahs have been desperate to get into an international competition as their continued sponsorship with Toyota relies on them competing in a multi national comp. They even made up a challenge tournament last year, which included a brand new team from Spain (Barcelona Diables) and a club from Romania, just to keep sponsors happy. Bizarre situation that has eventually landed them here. The EPCR has already made the challenge cup completely irrelevant so they may as well chuck anyone in at this stage.

Why the cheetahs sponsorship problems should have any relevance to the challenge cup is beyond me. Seems this is just a stepping stone for CVC to get their SA deal into the 6 nations and then beyond, it will be replaced by a world tournament every two years which is a world cup by another name.

This is just the beginning of the end for rugby Union. The sport has chased the buck at test level for years by pretending to "grow the game". The sport is ruined.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:The South African teams in the 'Premier' competition in Europe is a joke.

A South African team in European Competition whilst not even competing in a European league is nothing short of a disgrace.

The Cheetahs have been desperate to get into an international competition as their continued sponsorship with Toyota relies on them competing in a multi national comp. They even made up a challenge tournament last year, which included a brand new team from Spain (Barcelona Diables) and a club from Romania, just to keep sponsors happy. Bizarre situation that has eventually landed them here. The EPCR has already made the challenge cup completely irrelevant so they may as well chuck anyone in at this stage.

Why the cheetahs sponsorship problems should have any relevance to the challenge cup is beyond me. Seems this is just a stepping stone for CVC to get their SA deal into the 6 nations and then beyond, it will be replaced by a world tournament every two years which is a world cup by another name.

This is just the beginning of the end for rugby Union. The sport has chased the buck at test level for years by pretending to "grow the game". The sport is ruined.

Well the old HC was the greatest comp in rugby imo and that has been ruined beyond repair. So it's only a matter of time before the test game ends up the same. Every time I see groups like CVC invest money, I groan.

That's just rubbish.

I think it makes perfect sense for rugby union clubs and countries to help each other. If SA pro clubs need a competition to play in and the URC and the H cup want more high quality teams in their competitions then of course this is good for both. And yes if pro rugby teams in NZ were homeless I’d like to bring them in too rather than see them die off.

Pro rugby falling in standard in SA because they aren’t in a pro comp or even dying will negatively affect the standard of the World Cup competition and reduces the number of high standard teams in the world. It may be weird to have SA teems in Euro comps but it has to be better than having more weaker sides from the URC in the comp which is what would have happened otherwise.

As for the Euro cup being ruined it pisses me off that the pool stages are diminished but the later stages were exciting this year. The magic was back, if only for the final rounds.

Intotouch wrote:I think it makes perfect sense for rugby union clubs and countries to help each other. If SA pro clubs need a competition to play in and the URC and the H cup want more high quality teams in their competitions then of course this is good for both. And yes if pro rugby teams in NZ were homeless I’d like to bring them in too rather than see them die off.

Pro rugby falling in standard in SA because they aren’t in a pro comp or even dying will negatively affect the standard of the World Cup competition and reduces the number of high standard teams in the world. It may be weird to have SA teems in Euro comps but it has to be better than having more weaker sides from the URC in the comp which is what would have happened otherwise.

As for the Euro cup being ruined it pisses me off that the pool stages are diminished but the later stages were exciting this year. The magic was back, if only for the final rounds.

Fair point. For me the magic was always in the group stages, especially the double headers. I remember binge watching every game back to back on Sky sports over the two weekends back in the day, now I only watch Leinster's games, sad really, but alas life moves on.

Intotouch wrote:I think it makes perfect sense for rugby union clubs and countries to help each other. If SA pro clubs need a competition to play in and the URC and the H cup want more high quality teams in their competitions then of course this is good for both. And yes if pro rugby teams in NZ were homeless I’d like to bring them in too rather than see them die off.

Pro rugby falling in standard in SA because they aren’t in a pro comp or even dying will negatively affect the standard of the World Cup competition and reduces the number of high standard teams in the world. It may be weird to have SA teems in Euro comps but it has to be better than having more weaker sides from the URC in the comp which is what would have happened otherwise.

The sport will always be a niche, minority one with this attitude.

Imagine the Champions League feeling sorry for Argentinian footballing sides, so letting them in the Champions League. Don't kid yourself that this is about the noble sport of rugby union helping out fellow nations. It's about money. Everything in pro sport is about money.

The first iterations of the European Cup were selected by the French magazine E'Quipe.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:The South African teams in the 'Premier' competition in Europe is a joke.

A South African team in European Competition whilst not even competing in a European league is nothing short of a disgrace.

I think its great that SA teams are involved. They have added a lot in my view to Europe's premier league to date, the URC and to be fair there are already a large volume of SA players who have played in and won the Heineken cup already so no harm in them having their own team.
 

plenty of kiwis too. shall we invite the crusaders?

While we're at it - invite the all blacks to the 6 nations yeah? That follows your logic, so I assume you'll be all for it - they'd improve the competition after all.

Im guessing there are more South Africans but also SA makes more geographical sense to join the URC than NZ AUS competitions. Time zone, distance etc. The same way a lot of global companies divide their group in to regions such as EMEA and asia pacific etc.

Collapse2005 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:The South African teams in the 'Premier' competition in Europe is a joke.

A South African team in European Competition whilst not even competing in a European league is nothing short of a disgrace.

I think its great that SA teams are involved. They have added a lot in my view to Europe's premier league to date, the URC and to be fair there are already a large volume of SA players who have played in and won the Heineken cup already so no harm in them having their own team.
 

plenty of kiwis too. shall we invite the crusaders?

While we're at it - invite the all blacks to the 6 nations yeah? That follows your logic, so I assume you'll be all for it - they'd improve the competition after all.

Im guessing there are more South Africans but also SA makes more geographical sense to join the URC than NZ AUS competitions. Time zone, distance etc. The same way a lot of global companies divide their group in to regions such as EMEA and asia pacific etc.

Nah, the Kiwis and Aussies don't make sense in the new GMT Rugby championship.

It was said elsewhere that the cheetahs home games are to be played in Parma, surely this can't be true?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:It was said elsewhere that the cheetahs home games are to be played in Parma, surely this can't be true?

I'm sure it is something as simple as Parma and Bloem are the same name in a different language. They are actually the same place! Only in Rugby....