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Speed of the game

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 29 Nov 2022, 8:58 am

Nice distraction from who is going to win the race to appoint Robertson...

World Rugby are looking to bring in timers to reduce the amount of time wasting (for want of a better phrase) between stoppages. Personally I don't there is too much of an issue in regards to kickers, can't say I've noticed that much of a delay but the likelihood is a few seconds over. The big one for me is the scrums which seems to have been massively ignored. Part of this I think is that refs are themselves delaying the mark and thus giving players the ability to mill around. For me in a stadium this is the most frustrating thing, just get on with it. Should be done within 30 seconds and when I was watching a re run of the 03 WC during lockdown it was noticeable how quickly players could get the game going; like night and day to now.

I'd really like WR to tighten up the role and rules of the TMO as well, though suspect I may be in a slight minority here. There's been too much creep in what the TMO concerns themselves in. Pare it back to bringing to the refs attention a suspected red card and reviews on tries. And give the TMO their own limit and definition on what they should be looking for i.e. is there an obvious forward pass in the last phase, foot in touch, grounding. And I mean obvious, if you're having to look more than once go with the on field decision.


BBC:

'A countdown 'shot clock' timer on scrums, line-outs and kicks at goal could be introduced to help speed up the game before the Rugby World Cup.

The sport's key stakeholders met last week to consider ways to improve the flow of international rugby.

Other ideas include enhancing the in-stadium fan experience by broadcasting interactions between the referee and television match official [TMO].

The proposals will be considered by World Rugby over the coming weeks.

While this month's men's autumn series has produced some compelling matches, there has continued to be widespread disillusionment at the low ball-in-play time and the number of stoppages per game.

A countdown shot clock, displayed on the big screens, would encourage teams to restart with greater urgency from set-pieces, while kickers would be required to kick for goal within the time limits.

While the limits of 60 seconds for a penalty and 90 seconds for a conversion are enshrined in law, they are rarely enforced, with kickers regularly exceeding these times.

The clock - which could be introduced as soon as next year - would help lighten the load on referees.

A clock for kicks at goal is already in operation in France's Top 14.

World Rugby are also looking into a way of reducing the amount of time spent on TMO referrals, with the aim of a quicker and more binary system, as is the case in cricket's Decision Review System [DRS].

There is also a will to better engage the supporters in attendance by not only broadcasting the interactions between officials over the stadium loudspeakers, but also explaining on the big screen why an incident is being reviewed.

World Rugby will consider the ideas before developing concrete proposals over the coming weeks, with a view to making changes in the short term without the need to change law.

After last week's meeting - which included a host of administrators, head coaches and officials from the game's leading nations - World Rugby boss Sir Bill Beaumont labelled the conference as "the first step towards a reimagination of our sport".'

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 29 Nov 2022, 11:51 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nice distraction from who is going to win the race to appoint Robertson...

Wales.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 29 Nov 2022, 11:55 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Nice distraction from who is going to win the race to appoint Robertson...

Wales.

I don't think Gatland will work under him and the Welsh fans pine for that man.

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Post by Morgan75 Tue 29 Nov 2022, 8:54 pm

I would like the clock to stop every time the ball is out of play. Time is lost at every line out, scrum etc. You have been awarded a penalty and you then kick for touch. The clock is still live throughout this period, alongside when they all walk slowly to the line out, then the prop then normally gives the hooker the line out call. Why wasn’t this discussed as they were walking up? 2-3 minutes are lost unnecessarily. During the recent Wales/Australia game, under the Australian yellow card, Wales had a number of scrums just before halftime. After numerous scrum resets, Wales were held up, resulting in a goal line drop out and the end of the half. I feel this was great “game/time management” by Australia but feel the attacking side were harshly penalised here. If the clock didn’t start until the ball was out of the scrum, there would be more time for actual rugby action!

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Post by yappysnap Tue 29 Nov 2022, 10:24 pm

Also getting held up now being a drop out is flipping stupid! Just let the attacking team tap and go if you want it to be quicker!

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Post by Oakdene Wed 30 Nov 2022, 9:13 am

yappysnap wrote:Also getting held up now being a drop out is flipping stupid! Just let the attacking team tap and go if you want it to be quicker!

See I like this law, it rewards the defending team in the same way that if they put you into touch, they get possession & the chance to clear their lines. Also, the attacking team invariably get the ball back from the drop out & get to attack.

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Post by yappysnap Wed 30 Nov 2022, 11:51 pm

To me it just feels like too much reward for the defenders, play is stopped, they get to reset and reorganise and then hoof the ball away. Often all the excitement is then over, and everyone is back to square one.

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Post by mountain man Thu 01 Dec 2022, 8:43 am

Water breaks. Not needed in NH in winter. If there's a stoppage in play for an injury or maybe when a kick at goal is taken then fine as long as no delay is caused by ref having to chase off water carriers aka coaching staff off the pitch.
This all stemmed from Covid restrictions as everyonehad to have own bottle etc, this is no longer the case so get rid of these pointless delays.

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Post by Irish Londoner Thu 01 Dec 2022, 10:44 am

Morgan75 wrote:I would like the clock to stop every time the ball is out of play. Time is lost at every line out, scrum etc. You have been awarded a penalty and you then kick for touch. The clock is still live throughout this period, alongside when they all walk slowly to the line out, then the prop then normally gives the hooker the line out call. Why wasn’t this discussed as they were walking up? 2-3 minutes are lost unnecessarily. During the recent Wales/Australia game, under the Australian yellow card, Wales had a number of scrums just before halftime. After numerous scrum resets, Wales were held up, resulting in a goal line drop out and the end of the half. I feel this was great “game/time management” by Australia but feel the attacking side were harshly penalised here. If the clock didn’t start until the ball was out of the scrum, there would be more time for actual rugby action!

Have you seen the amounts of added time in the soccer world cup now that a timekeeper is adding time on for every stoppage - to do the same in rugby would mean one hour halves sometimes ! Very Happy

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Post by Oakdene Thu 01 Dec 2022, 11:00 am

yappysnap wrote:To me it just feels like too much reward for the defenders, play is stopped, they get to reset and reorganise and then hoof the ball away. Often all the excitement is then over, and everyone is back to square one.

Or you end up with countless reset scrum's....

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Post by mountain man Thu 01 Dec 2022, 11:08 am

Another way to speed things up is for ref to meet with capts prior to game and tell them if in his opinion either team is delaying/wasting time getting ready, eg the inevitable committee meeting prior to every scrum and line out then first offence ref issues warning. Next time free kick, next time pen, next time card. That'll speed things up.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 03 Dec 2022, 12:42 pm

Reluctantly agree to a 'shot clock' or 'snap clock'. Works with almost seamless integration in other sports - in the NFL and NBA it resets and is used constantly. Don't need 90 seconds to execute a conversion after a try. Something needs to be done to prevent the time wasting. 45 seconds for a line out or the offending team in penalised. Why longer? Extra conversations regarding lineout can happen with the 45 seconds (or whatever time is designated).

I said 'reluctantly' only because, once again, Rugby itself, is not up to implementing change which will comtemporise the sport Martin Bayfield recently referred to as a Victorian era sport played with 21st century athletes.

Late thought: It is very odd because when I sat to type this I hadn't thought to go here, but the thought just keeps recurring: I really think World Rugby is incompetent. Forget the RFU which is close to being beyond salvage, World Rugby seem a bunch of administrators (as opposed to leaders) managing the game, but not leading. Anything.

At least if we had FIFA, we would know the problem is not competence to run large sport, but rather the Encyclopedia Britannica listing of who gets bribed and paid off. We would be totally morally bankrupt, but we would have more money......

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Post by yappysnap Mon 05 Dec 2022, 10:18 pm

Oakdene wrote:
yappysnap wrote:To me it just feels like too much reward for the defenders, play is stopped, they get to reset and reorganise and then hoof the ball away. Often all the excitement is then over, and everyone is back to square one.

Or you end up with countless reset scrum's....

Exactly! make them tap and go

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Post by doctor_grey Tue 06 Dec 2022, 12:11 am

yappysnap wrote:
Oakdene wrote:
yappysnap wrote:To me it just feels like too much reward for the defenders, play is stopped, they get to reset and reorganise and then hoof the ball away. Often all the excitement is then over, and everyone is back to square one.

Or you end up with countless reset scrum's....

Exactly! make them tap and go
That's a really out of the box suggestion - and effing brilliant. That's the perfect solution. Let's get in done.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 22 Dec 2022, 4:02 pm

Wr:

World Rugby has announced a series of law applications which will be implemented game-wide from 1 January 2023.

The guidelines, which are designed to assist match officials, players and coaches and to enhance fan experience are part of a drive by the international federation to speed up the game and reflect key outcomes of the Shape of the Game Conference in November.

With Rugby World Cup 2023 fast-approaching, the new directives are designed to support a quicker, more entertaining game while balancing safety and spectacle. From 1 January 2023, the following will apply:

Speeding up the game

Players and match officials are reminded of the following existing laws which must be strictly adhered to:

Law 8.8d Conversion. [The kicker] takes the kick within 90 seconds (playing time) from the time the try was awarded, even if the ball rolls over and has to be placed again. Sanction: Kick is disallowed.
Law 8.21: Penalty Kick: The kick must be taken within 60 seconds (playing time) from the time the team indicated their intention to do so, even if the ball rolls over and has to be placed again. Sanction: Kick is disallowed and a scrum is awarded.
Law 9.7d: A player must not waste time. Sanction Free Kick
Law 18.12 Lineout: Teams form the lineout without delay. Sanction: Free-kick.
Law 19.4 Scrum: Teams must be ready to form the scrum within 30 seconds of the mark being made. Sanction: Free-kick.
The whole sport is encouraged to apply these guidelines to speed up the game and elite matches competitions will be encouraged to use a “shot clock” as trialled in the LNR/ FFR competitions when practically possible.

World Rugby Director of Rugby Phil Davies said: “World Rugby, member unions and competitions will work with broadcasters and match hosts to implement on-screen (stadia and broadcast) shot clocks for penalties and conversions to ensure referees, players and fans can view the countdown, mirroring what happens in the LNR and Sevens."

Less reliance on Television Match Official (TMO) reviews

Match officials are reminded that the current TMO protocol is aimed at identifying and ensuring clear and obvious offences are dealt with on-field.

Davies added: “There was excellent debate at the Shape of the Game conference on this topic, including leading match officials, coaches and player representatives. It was agreed that reviews can often take too long, suggesting the offence being reviewed is not clear and obvious. While we can always enhance the technology interaction to speed up the process, the match official teams – led by the referee - should attempt to make speedier decisions and limit replays where not necessary.”

World Rugby will be working with match official managers to ensure consistent application of the process.

Fewer water carrier interventions

The Global Law Trial on limiting the number of water carriers to two, and reducing the times they enter the field, has successfully reduced unnecessary stoppages. However, creating set windows for water breaks has created the impression of disrupting the game, even if that water was taken during a natural stoppage (try/injury/TMO review).

Davies added: “Following discussions with stakeholders, an amendment to the current global law trial covering water carriers will allow water onto the field when a try is scored. Participating competitions and unions are reminded of the 60/90 second limits on kick times.  Only in a game with no tries, should a natural stoppage be used.

This amendment to the current trial protocol was supported by the Technical zone/ water carrier working group. This group includes player, coach, referee and competition representatives.

Penalising negative player actions

Reinforcing rugby’s values, referees will be asked to be strong on negative player actions. For example, Trapping players into ruck, and first arriving players (the jackler) not aiming to play the ball.

Players are reminded about their responsibilities not to hold the ball or walk off with the ball at penalties – this reduces attacking options by the non-offending team and slows the game down unnecessarily and will be sanctioned.

Penalising players with hands on the floor to support body weight

Players who put their hands on the floor at tackles, rucks and mauls are subject to sanction, although judgement can be used if the player is using the ground briefly to maintain their own balance and stability.

Law definitions and relevant clauses:

Off feet: Players are off their feet when any other part of the body is supported by the ground or players on the ground.
On feet: Players are on their feet if no other part of their body is supported by the ground or players on the ground.
Tackle law 14.8a Other players must: Remain on their feet and release the ball and the ball-carrier immediately, and 14.8b Remain on their feet when they play the ball.
Ruck law 15.12: Players must endeavour to remain on their feet throughout the ruck
Maul law 16.9: All other players in a maul must endeavour to stay on their feet

Clarity on deliberate knock-ons

What is and what isn’t a deliberate knock on often causes of debate. All participants are reminded of the following existing laws:

3 A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm. Sanction: Penalty.
4 It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.
Players must endeavour to catch the ball. Referees are asked to show good judgement when deciding if a player has a reasonable expectation of catching and gaining possession, and then in determining a sanction.

Commenting on the latest directives, World Rugby Chairman Sir Bill Beaumont said: “As a sport, a movement and a family, we must always challenge ourselves to be better. That means taking time to consider what fans and players want the future of our sport to be, a future where more people want to play and support the game, where injury risk is reducing and where all involved in the game have their say.

“These law application guidelines are a step on the road to reimagining our sport and come directly from the Shape of the Game conference in London in November, attended by players, coaches, referees, union CEOs and competition owners. By working together, we can achieve positive outcomes. I would like to thank all for their contributions and the match officials specifically for implementing the directives and we look forward to seeing the results.”

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Post by RiscaGame Fri 23 Dec 2022, 8:33 am

Reinforcing rugby’s values, referees will be asked to be strong on negative player actions. For example, Trapping players into ruck, and first arriving players (the jackler) not aiming to play the ball.

Players are reminded about their responsibilities not to hold the ball or walk off with the ball at penalties – this reduces attacking options by the non-offending team and slows the game down unnecessarily and will be sanctioned.

Maybe an end to all the whooping and backs running in to congratulate forwards for a scrum pen too.

Hands on the floor being penalised more? Sounds like game over for Ireland.

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Post by doctor_grey Wed 28 Dec 2022, 1:20 pm

I like the shot clock or play clock for Rugby.  Basketball was saved as a sport by the introduction of a shot clock.  American Football have used a play clock fo over 50 years.  Even baseball, timeless in its' own way similar to Cricket, is implementing a pitch clock.  

Since the other sports used the clock to improve game play and fan experience, it would be easy to implement in Rugby.  Just stop the game clock and start the shot/snap/play clock (as in American Football at every level) when a try or penalty is scored, a lineout or scrum needs to be formed.  Or, more or less, whenever the ball goes out of play.  Exceptions could be if the referee sees something, an injury for instance, which causes the game to be completely stopped.
90 seconds - try
45 seconds - tap, penalty kick to touch, or for points
30 seconds - lineout or scrum

Also need a play clock for TMO reviews....

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Post by Lowlandbrit Wed 28 Dec 2022, 4:28 pm

Telling that a lot of them seem to be pointing to existing rules. Don't instinctively love the idea of countdown timers everywhere, but if it's what it takes to save us from the refs interpreting what they think the changes should be (I have Thoughts about scrums), then so be it.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 28 Dec 2022, 5:06 pm

Bit that does my head in that may or may not be looked at here is the age it takes to get a scrum. Perhaps it's been a gradual thing I haven't really taken note of but when the 03 WC was being replayed in lockdown the time between a knock on and the ball being played was miles faster. There's the rule here about ensuring the existing law of starting the scrum within 30 seconds of the mark is mentioned here but there's very little delay in the game here now it's the delay in the ref calling the mark in the first place.

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Post by Lowlandbrit Wed 28 Dec 2022, 5:41 pm

For some reason (international) refs never got out of the mindset that the way scrums should work is everyone smashing together and immediately trying to dominate and chucking the ball in; at least I assume that's why the calls are so slow with so much emphasis on 'set', instead of getting the scrum together as quickly as possible so they can start moving once the ball comes in.

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Post by doctor_grey Wed 28 Dec 2022, 7:50 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bit that does my head in that may or may not be looked at here is the age it takes to get  a scrum. Perhaps it's been a  gradual thing I haven't really taken note of but when the 03 WC was being replayed in lockdown the time between a knock on and the ball being played was miles faster. There's the rule here about ensuring the existing law of starting the scrum within 30 seconds of the mark is mentioned here but there's very little delay in the game here now it's the delay in the ref calling the mark in the first place.
To your point, if we watch games even older than 2003 scrums just come together so much more quickly. If we don't want to go the way of the 'play clock' then certainly I would want to see the game clock stopped during these extra 'stoppages'.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sun 01 Jan 2023, 10:24 am

doctor_grey wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Bit that does my head in that may or may not be looked at here is the age it takes to get  a scrum. Perhaps it's been a  gradual thing I haven't really taken note of but when the 03 WC was being replayed in lockdown the time between a knock on and the ball being played was miles faster. There's the rule here about ensuring the existing law of starting the scrum within 30 seconds of the mark is mentioned here but there's very little delay in the game here now it's the delay in the ref calling the mark in the first place.
To your point, if we watch games even older than 2003 scrums just come together so much more quickly.   If we don't want to go the way of the 'play clock' then certainly I would want to see the game clock stopped during these extra 'stoppages'.  

It seems to be happening in "football", I caught the end of Final Score yesterday and all the games they were talking about were clocking an extra 10 minutes i.e. about 100 minutes of "play".
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