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England Pre 2023 6Ns and Beyond.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 13 Feb - 6:16

First topic message reminder :

Continued.......

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Post by Geordie Thu 16 Mar - 10:17

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:If we're talking players that could come into the squad that currently aren't involved.

1. VRR, Marler
2. Blamire, McGuigan
6. T Hill
8. Mercer, T Willis
9. Quirke
12. Kelly, S Atkinson
14. Cokanasiga, Ramm
15. Carpenter

Sam whats your views on Thorley at Gloucester?

He needs to refind his best form and ideally develop more of a kicking game. He's strong and quick but injuries have left him a bit behind some of the others.

Ramm (poaching from the Aussies here) and Carpenter are both bang in form and have great all round skillsets. Cokanasiga is a unique talent and I'd hope he'd at least make the initial larger RWC squad because I think working with one of the best S&C guys in the business might really allow him to offer a lot more.

Yeah i can go with that....i just really like his directness and the power he runs with despite not being a big guy. Time has probably passed for any England ambitions right enough.

Coka is a huge frustration for me. When he burst on to the scene he had that dynamism...but its left him with the injuries and off field goings on. As you say...if he can get a proper S&C coach to get back that power and dynamism for hitting collisions or hitting the gap off the shoulder...then suddenly things change in the England back line.

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Post by doctor_grey Thu 16 Mar - 10:27

Geordie wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
mountain man wrote:Shame about Chessum, one of the few bright sparks in an otherwise very dark 6N for England.

Looking on bright side, England can go into RWC with no pressure as literally no-one will expect them to win.

As for Saturday can't see anything other than 3 home wins.

You never know. It'd be a huge turnaround from last week but sport and all that.

I dont expect a win at all...HOWEVER i expect a big reaction from some of these players. They're professional rugby players and good ones...who got absolutely embarrased on Saturday. If they dont react to that and genuinely try to show that they're peed off and that they're much better than that then they all need to be dropped after this game....
Agree completely. I just hope we are not dropping the entire 23 on Monday morn. This is a big early test for Borthwick.

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Post by mountain man Thu 16 Mar - 10:38

Can't drop all 23 even if they suffer another hammering as there just aren't the players available to replace them of sufficient quality at present.

I really think now it's a 4 year goal to get team ready for RWC 2027. Obviously 6N crucial along way.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 16 Mar - 11:49

Geordie wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:If we're talking players that could come into the squad that currently aren't involved.

1. VRR, Marler
2. Blamire, McGuigan
6. T Hill
8. Mercer, T Willis
9. Quirke
12. Kelly, S Atkinson
14. Cokanasiga, Ramm
15. Carpenter

Sam whats your views on Thorley at Gloucester?

He needs to refind his best form and ideally develop more of a kicking game. He's strong and quick but injuries have left him a bit behind some of the others.

Ramm (poaching from the Aussies here) and Carpenter are both bang in form and have great all round skillsets. Cokanasiga is a unique talent and I'd hope he'd at least make the initial larger RWC squad because I think working with one of the best S&C guys in the business might really allow him to offer a lot more.

Yeah i can go with that....i just really like his directness and the power he runs with despite not being a big guy. Time has probably passed for any England ambitions right enough.

Coka is a huge frustration for me. When he burst on to the scene he had that dynamism...but its left him with the injuries and off field goings on. As you say...if he can get a proper S&C coach to get back that power and dynamism for hitting collisions or hitting the gap off the shoulder...then suddenly things change in the England back line.

Thorley is only 26, there's still time for him to get a good number of caps under his belt but his best for we haven't seen that since 2019/20. It's coming back slowly but injuries have played their part. Get back to his best form at Glaws in the last few games and show some kicking skills and he could be in the wider RWC squad and get a shot at making the reduced one by impressing in training.

Yeah Joe Cokanasiga has been a frustrating player to watch. Again only 25 so could still come good and would suit how we want to play. Just needs to stay fit and show a bit of form between now and the summer.

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Post by doctor_grey Thu 16 Mar - 12:01

mountain man wrote:Can't drop all 23 even if they suffer another hammering as there just aren't the players available to replace them of sufficient quality at present.

I really think now it's a 4 year goal to get team ready for RWC 2027. Obviously 6N crucial along way.
I was just being sarcastic about dropping the full 23. But, brings to mind, wtf was Eddie Jones doing? Fiddling whilst Rome burns...

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Post by king_carlos Thu 16 Mar - 13:36

Realistically it seemed that Jones from the start of his tenure had concerns about how the system is now preparing players for international rugby. Those concerns only seem to have grown as time went on. The Ireland game will give us a more rounded view but the way some of the new guard that many of us, myself included, have wanted to see were annihilated by France may suggest that some of that view was correct. There certainly seems a growing acceptance or admittance from pundits and fans that other systems have overtaken England's in how well they can prepare players for the international schedule.

I think that for really exceptional talents they will still come through as always. Guys such as Curry and Underhill dominated tackles in senior rugby almost immediately, at a young age. It's rare to see players do that these days. Arundell could be similar. Simply a freakish athlete.

For players that have big strengths in some areas but big weaknesses in others I'm not sure the system is ironing out those weaknesses though. Hence we have players learning on the job at international level. Fitness levels in particular of the Prem players just making the step-up are startling lacking in places. Players who are shining at Prem level just falling away in the first half realistically let alone the second.

With 20/20 hindsight the perfect time for Jones to depart was at the end of his original contract. He said at the start he wanted it to be a 1 RWC cycle project. He finished that win an outstanding win percentage, two Six Nations title, the whitewash in Aus, RWC final. An incredible tenure. That success meant that the RFU and Jones convinced themselves that continuing was the best call for all parties when we now know it wasn't.

Due to Jones success I supported the extension at the time though. So that's certainly not me trying to claim I had a crystal ball. More just looking back at views Jones expressed or his selections seemed to indicate which many of us criticised him for at the time but are now seeming to have more than a bit of truth behind them.

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Post by Geordie Thu 16 Mar - 15:44

king_carlos wrote:Realistically it seemed that Jones from the start of his tenure had concerns about how the system is now preparing players for international rugby. Those concerns only seem to have grown as time went on. The Ireland game will give us a more rounded view but the way some of the new guard that many of us, myself included, have wanted to see were annihilated by France may suggest that some of that view was correct. There certainly seems a growing acceptance or admittance from pundits and fans that other systems have overtaken England's in how well they can prepare players for the international schedule.

I think that for really exceptional talents they will still come through as always. Guys such as Curry and Underhill dominated tackles in senior rugby almost immediately, at a young age. It's rare to see players do that these days. Arundell could be similar. Simply a freakish athlete.

For players that have big strengths in some areas but big weaknesses in others I'm not sure the system is ironing out those weaknesses though. Hence we have players learning on the job at international level. Fitness levels in particular of the Prem players just making the step-up are startling lacking in places. Players who are shining at Prem level just falling away in the first half realistically let alone the second.

With 20/20 hindsight the perfect time for Jones to depart was at the end of his original contract. He said at the start he wanted it to be a 1 RWC cycle project. He finished that win an outstanding win percentage, two Six Nations title, the whitewash in Aus, RWC final. An incredible tenure. That success meant that the RFU and Jones convinced themselves that continuing was the best call for all parties when we now know it wasn't.

Due to Jones success I supported the extension at the time though. So that's certainly not me trying to claim I had a crystal ball. More just looking back at views Jones expressed or his selections seemed to indicate which many of us criticised him for at the time but are now seeming to have more than a bit of truth behind them.

So whats the answer....

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Post by king_carlos Thu 16 Mar - 16:33

A difficult question to answer there GF.

The Premiership players getting through so many minutes a season is an issue. Looking at Ireland for example the last time Sexton played more than 12 club games in a season was the 16 he played in 2016/17, his first season back at Leinster. The most club games Doris has played in a season is 17 with 14 starts. That clash of club vs country meaning you can't really look at players peaking for a tournament every season.

I don't personally think that ringfencing has improved the league but that horse has bolted. Back around when the Championship went professional they needed to either build up the A-league to being a genuine competition to bridge the gap from U20s to Premiership or do the same with the Championship. One or the other needed investment. In reality neither happened hence that big drop off outside the shareholder clubs which have now also contracted.

My feeling is that we are seeing high scoring but lower quality games in the Premiership as a consequence. That need to avoid losses that can sink sides at the end of the season drives defence and fitness requirements which IMO has declined.

I haven't looked in depth into stats on this but with the reduced cap I'd presume there are fewer experienced 'squad players' in their later twenties with recent academy grads taking their place. This seems a great trade on paper in terms of development but I'd question whether physicality in the league has reduced as a by product.

Fewer games and higher quality when they are played is the ideal answer. Fewer games means less cash though and how that works is difficult to see.

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Post by Geordie Thu 16 Mar - 16:44

May have been on here or somewhere else i read it, but someone suggested the amount of games that English players play means most of their muscle and power building will be done pre season and they battle through the season ultimately losing muscle and strength etc, whereas the likes of Ireland and others have breaks allowing them to keep their bulk / power training up through out the season.

Now im not sure if thats legit or not...it was jsut a suggest, one i thought very plausible...however dont the French leagues have a lot of games...and they dont look particularly weak.

I said it before...i really do think we have the players that we can bring in...and make this team strong again...just need to pick them and get the right tactics etc.


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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 16 Mar - 17:11

England: Steward; Watson, Slade, Tuilagi, Arundell; Farrell (c), Van Poortvliet; Genge, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Ribbans, Ludlam, Willis, Dombrandt

Replacements: Walker, M Vunipola, Cole, Isiekwe, B Curry, Mitchell, Smith, Marchant

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 16 Mar - 17:11

So Ireland will be better in pretty much every department. Going to be a long game.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 16 Mar - 17:21

Who's taking the kicking responsibility?

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Post by Geordie Thu 16 Mar - 17:26

formerly known as Sam wrote:So Ireland will be better in pretty much every department. Going to be a long game.

Think im busy on Saturday

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Post by yappysnap Thu 16 Mar - 19:36

Geordie wrote:May have been on here or somewhere else i read it, but someone suggested the amount of games that English players play means most of their muscle and power building will be done pre season and they battle through the season ultimately losing muscle and strength etc, whereas the likes of Ireland and others have breaks allowing them to keep their bulk / power training up through out the season.

Now im not sure if thats legit or not...it was jsut a suggest, one i thought very plausible...however dont the French leagues have a lot of games...and they dont look particularly weak.

I said it before...i really do think we have the players that we can bring in...and make this team strong again...just need to pick them and get the right tactics etc.  


I think Haskell and Tindall both discussed this, that in the Prem a huge amount of work goes into pre season and hitting the gym, getting big and powerful and then over the season that tapers off and the players lose weight.

Now that's not necessarily a negative. Harlequins won the league a couple of years ago without really looking at the gym. But I do wonder how that stacks up against Int sides and the massive size of some of the top players.

Lancaster's England tried to ignore power and have players that had greater endurance than any of the opposition and fundamentally that didn't work out, although tactics and selections may have been the cause for the losses rather than size so I wonder if that's more the blueprint for England. With our long seasons and huge number of games perhaps players focussed on endurance over power is the way to go.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 16 Mar - 20:38

Geordie wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:So Ireland will be better in pretty much every department. Going to be a long game.

Think im busy on Saturday

I didn't realise it was a 5pm kick off so am actually taking my wife and daughter out for dinner. I think that's going to be more enjoyable.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 16 Mar - 20:41

I'll be watching.....probably from behind the sofa!

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Post by lostinwales Fri 17 Mar - 0:19

Chessum - 'Fracture dislocation of the left ankle'

Eek

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Post by Maine man Fri 17 Mar - 8:15

As an Ireland fan, I genuinely think England have a chance. It'll be a hell of an ask but I ain't writing them off at all.

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Post by Geordie Fri 17 Mar - 8:39

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:So Ireland will be better in pretty much every department. Going to be a long game.

Think im busy on Saturday

I didn't realise it was a 5pm kick off so am actually taking my wife and daughter out for dinner. I think that's going to be more enjoyable.


Your a lucky man...actually i have genuinely just been rescued aswell..so ill unfortunately have to miss this one.

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Post by Geordie Fri 17 Mar - 8:42

lostinwales wrote:Chessum - 'Fracture dislocation of the left ankle'

Eek

Yeah heard that, whats the recover time on something like that? Will that affect his world cup chances?

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Post by Mr Bounce Fri 17 Mar - 8:54

Geordie wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Chessum - 'Fracture dislocation of the left ankle'

Eek

Yeah heard that, whats the recover time on something like that? Will that affect his world cup chances?

Quite possibly - they're saying it might be 5-6 months. Mind you, they said Abby Dow wouldn't play in last year's RWC and she was there. Depends entirely on the break and how well the injury responds to treatment.

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Post by hugehandoff Fri 17 Mar - 9:17

Maine man wrote:As an Ireland fan, I genuinely think England have a chance. It'll be a hell of an ask but I ain't writing them off at all.

England have two hopes...Bob Hope (could be useful to play some inspirational tunes in the dressing room before they go out) and No Hope. No please leave us in our misery.

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Post by hugehandoff Fri 17 Mar - 9:20

A record amount of non discussion on our selection which reflects nicely that we probably all think selection is now academic and whoever is selected will get stuffed.

All we ask for is some pride in their performance. Last year after Ewels went for a bath after 30 seconds we fought bloody hard until the very end....I demand more of the same.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 17 Mar - 9:20

Mr Bounce wrote:
Geordie wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Chessum - 'Fracture dislocation of the left ankle'

Eek

Yeah heard that, whats the recover time on something like that? Will that affect his world cup chances?

Quite possibly - they're saying it might be 5-6 months. Mind you, they said Abby Dow wouldn't play in last year's RWC and she was there. Depends entirely on the break and how well the injury responds to treatment.

I am sure the good doctor will be able to give a better idea.

From my very limited understanding the 'fracture' bit should be fine, its the damage to the soft tissues involved in the 'dislocation' bit that may take more time to resolve. There is also the question about how well he'll be able to keep his fitness level up during recovery

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 17 Mar - 9:35

hugehandoff wrote:A record amount of non discussion on our selection which reflects nicely that we probably all think selection is now academic and whoever is selected will get stuffed.

All we ask for is some pride in their performance. Last year after Ewels went for a bath after 30 seconds we fought bloody hard until the very end....I demand more of the same.

Big selection that needed to be remedied was Malins and he's gone. Question on Slade but with lawrence's injury can understand that you don't really want to make 2 changes in midfield (which has looked rubbish defensively twice this 6Ns), my question was were they just going to drop Porter in there as he knows what Sinfield wants? When we're previously swapped defence coach there hasn't been this much negative impact, and Sinfield has come with a blossoming rep but the defence has been lacking and from people thought to be good.

Pretty happy the pack gets to go again, they're better than France and Ribbans has been unlucky he's not been picked as a starter for a while.

Dropping Smith is nonsensical for me though. Just don't get it.

The minimum ask is the team turn up. I'm not expecting to win but I do expect us to be in the game come 75 minutes, and then who knows. Another blow out and frankly even the guys who blamed last week on Jones (Woodward, S Jones et al) must start thinking erm....


As for Chessum, my expert opinion as we wait for Doc would be: Ouch.

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Post by hugehandoff Fri 17 Mar - 9:52

I think we have all been waiting for Arundell to start for some time. When you think who could really make a difference then it is just frustrating that Borthwick has not started him before. Italy was the perfect time and a debut away against Ireland with Sexton turning him and perfect box kicks is far from ideal...poor planning for me, but I just hope he goes ok. JVP clearly needed to drop to the bench as well. Mitchell deserves a start, but bench players always seem to be able to make a positive impact and I thought it would be good for JVP's confidence to do just that. We need quicker ball and whilst JVP can do that I don't have any confidence that that is the way he is being coached currently.

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Post by Rugby Fan Fri 17 Mar - 9:54

hugehandoff wrote:A record amount of non discussion on our selection.

Genuinely hard to know what to make of it. Most of last week's problems started at the breakdown, which had been one of the areas going reasonably well. Indeed, many pundits though Ludlam, Dombrandt and Willis made up one of the best-balanced back rows available to us, in the absence of Tom Curry, Lawes etc. Maybe we've all been deceiving ourselves about our back row strength in depth.

The coaches are in a difficult position. To some extent Borthwick had a bit of a free pass, as no-one thought he'd be able to get England in a position to win the next World Cup, except with a healthy dose of good fortune. Still, most England supporters though we were basically a good team, which had been driven up a load of blind alleys, and expected to see some signs of improvement.

Instead, we looked clueless against France. Maybe English players just can't cut the mustard in today's game, and Jones had been papering over the cracks in ways we are only starting to realize. The alternative is that the players can do a decent job but have lost all confidence in the team environment. The working assumption was that Borthwick would get buy-in from the squad. However, the longer we go on misfiring, the more doubts will start to creep in.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 17 Mar - 9:55

Quickness of ball comes back to coaching again for me. vP is a classy player, I think Borthwick has started out cautious, and that rubs off on players even when the situation demands something else. From carrying, to playing the ball, to getting it out wide, or simply not kicking the ball every time you're near to the 22, the players are not picking the right options and/or showing bravery. Could be a big improvement by simply a mind switch drummed into them in the last week.

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Post by mountain man Fri 17 Mar - 10:33

No 7&1/2 wrote:
hugehandoff wrote:A record amount of non discussion on our selection which reflects nicely that we probably all think selection is now academic and whoever is selected will get stuffed.

All we ask for is some pride in their performance. Last year after Ewels went for a bath after 30 seconds we fought bloody hard until the very end....I demand more of the same.

Big selection that needed to be remedied was Malins and he's gone. Question on Slade but with lawrence's injury can understand that you don't really want to make 2 changes in midfield (which has looked rubbish defensively twice this 6Ns), my question was were they just going to drop Porter in there as he knows what Sinfield wants? When we're previously swapped defence coach there hasn't been this much negative impact, and Sinfield has come with a blossoming rep but the defence has been lacking and from people thought to be good.

Pretty happy the pack gets to go again, they're better than France and Ribbans has been unlucky he's not been picked as a starter for a while.

Dropping Smith is nonsensical for me though. Just don't get it.

The minimum ask is the team turn up. I'm not expecting to win but I do expect us to be in the game come 75 minutes, and then who knows. Another blow out and frankly even the guys who blamed last week on Jones (Woodward, S Jones et al) must start thinking erm....


As for Chessum, my expert opinion as we wait for Doc would be: Ouch.

I know you don't rate Malins at all but he was hardly the key factor to hammering last week!
Slade is very lucky to still be in team, why isn't Marchant starting at 13.

Pack I suspect being given chance to redeem themselves. Back row especially miles off it last game so they'd better front up. JP starting again is a bit odd, I've been fan of him but he's been poor this 6N.

I also don't expect a win but surely England can't be as limp as last week.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 17 Mar - 10:38

Based off what I want from a winger, not only on last week if at all.

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Post by Rugby Fan Fri 17 Mar - 10:57

mountain man wrote:...Slade is very lucky to still be in team, why isn't Marchant starting at 13...
Slade is another kicking option.

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England Pre 2023 6Ns and Beyond. - Page 19 Empty Re: England Pre 2023 6Ns and Beyond.

Post by lostinwales Fri 17 Mar - 11:00

Malins vs Arundell. Smart player but a bit limited in internationals vs someone with potential to be really special.

I don't see what the issue is at all.

Disappointed with Farrell starting. At best he'll reduce the points difference but not the result.

Willis. One thing that was notable in his first go with England was the carrying he was doing. Not making big metres but useful hard stuff in traffic. He hasn't been doing much of that at all this 6N. I wonder if he's been told to focus on the defense and turnovers or if it is a consequence of his injury?

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Post by mountain man Fri 17 Mar - 11:12

Rugby Fan wrote:
mountain man wrote:...Slade is very lucky to still be in team, why isn't Marchant starting at 13...
Slade is another kicking option.

With JvP, Farrell and Steward surely got enough. Anyway, if he's in for his kicking then England really have no chance. England as a team kick too much and too badly as it is. I'd quite like to see us actually running on occasion. Yes, kicking is a key part of rugby but it's also been detrimental to England on too many times.

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Post by Sharkey06 Fri 17 Mar - 11:19

lostinwales wrote:Malins vs Arundell. Smart player but a bit limited in internationals vs someone with potential to be really special.

I don't see what the issue is at all.

Disappointed with Farrell starting. At best he'll reduce the points difference but not the result.

Willis. One thing that was notable in his first go with England was the carrying he was doing. Not making big metres but useful hard stuff in traffic. He hasn't been doing much of that at all this 6N. I wonder if he's been told to focus on the defense and turnovers or if it is a consequence of his injury?

Jack Willis’s main strength is the jackal.  Josh van der Flier’s main strength when he started international rugby was the jackal.  However, he realised very soon that he needed to change his game to become a much more effective carrier and link player.

Stats wise Willis has 2 turnovers, carried for 54 metres and made 4 passes.  Van der Flier has 2 turnovers, carried for 161 metres and made 25 passes.  I think Willis needs to look at his game and evolve.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 17 Mar - 11:33

lostinwales wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:
Geordie wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Chessum - 'Fracture dislocation of the left ankle'

Eek

Yeah heard that, whats the recover time on something like that? Will that affect his world cup chances?

Quite possibly - they're saying it might be 5-6 months. Mind you, they said Abby Dow wouldn't play in last year's RWC and she was there. Depends entirely on the break and how well the injury responds to treatment.

I am sure the good doctor will be able to give a better idea.

From my very limited understanding the 'fracture' bit should be fine, its the damage to the soft tissues involved in the 'dislocation' bit that may take more time to resolve. There is also the question about how well he'll be able to keep his fitness level up during recovery
You nailed most of it, mate.  Commonly there is a fracture when ankle dislocations occur due to the strength of the soft tissues and the forces needed to move the bones apart.  But recovery is hard to predict without scans and knowing what the surgeons plan to do (if anything).  Recovery can be long simply due to the critical role the ankle plays.  For Chessum, he has the advantage of being young and strong, but, as you said, the challenge is falling out of top game shape.  With an ankle it is so difficult to maintain levels of aerobic conditioning because it is hard to do anything (excepting upper body and core). Anecdotally 5-6 months is about an average duration for recovery, but can be 3 months (assuming typical severity of this type) up to a year.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 17 Mar - 11:37

mountain man wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
mountain man wrote:...Slade is very lucky to still be in team, why isn't Marchant starting at 13...
Slade is another kicking option.

With JvP, Farrell and Steward surely got enough. Anyway, if he's in for his kicking then England really have no chance. England as a team kick too much and too badly as it is. I'd quite like to see us actually running on occasion. Yes, kicking is a key part of rugby but it's also been detrimental to England on too many times.
Especially when kicking possession away with front foot ball in their end of the field with low probability kicks.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 17 Mar - 11:45

doctor_grey wrote:
mountain man wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
mountain man wrote:...Slade is very lucky to still be in team, why isn't Marchant starting at 13...
Slade is another kicking option.

With JvP, Farrell and Steward surely got enough. Anyway, if he's in for his kicking then England really have no chance. England as a team kick too much and too badly as it is. I'd quite like to see us actually running on occasion. Yes, kicking is a key part of rugby but it's also been detrimental to England on too many times.
Especially when kicking possession away with front foot ball in their end of the field with low probability kicks.    

It's the Nick Evans methodology around kicking, you kick on the front foot. Kicking under pressure is expected so the opposition are aligned. Leave that to the 9 so your full defence can form up and chase.

Otherwise when on the front foot, you try and pull up the opposition defence and then kick to test isolated defenders or even better into open space.

To a degree it has worked, even against France we had more territory and possession in their half than they did in ours. We got a lot of change out of Scotland.

The downside is that it seems to be the fall back option for to much of the backline. If they don't see an obvious opportunity the drop it on the boot. We are way to quick to do that and definitely need some more patience to go through the phases.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 17 Mar - 11:51

formerly known as Sam wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
mountain man wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
mountain man wrote:...Slade is very lucky to still be in team, why isn't Marchant starting at 13...
Slade is another kicking option.

With JvP, Farrell and Steward surely got enough. Anyway, if he's in for his kicking then England really have no chance. England as a team kick too much and too badly as it is. I'd quite like to see us actually running on occasion. Yes, kicking is a key part of rugby but it's also been detrimental to England on too many times.
Especially when kicking possession away with front foot ball in their end of the field with low probability kicks.    

It's the Nick Evans methodology around kicking, you kick on the front foot. Kicking under pressure is expected so the opposition are aligned. Leave that to the 9 so your full defence can form up and chase.

Otherwise when on the front foot, you try and pull up the opposition defence and then kick to test isolated defenders or even better into open space.

To a degree it has worked, even against France we had more territory and possession in their half than they did in ours. We got a lot of change out of Scotland.

The downside is that it seems to be the fall back option for to much of the backline. If they don't see an obvious opportunity the drop it on the boot. We are way to quick to do that and definitely need some more patience to go through the phases.
This was my point.

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Post by Poorfour Fri 17 Mar - 13:44

I think a lot depends on whether the players are used to kicking to attack versus kicking to manage territory.

It has to be something that a team does regularly and responds to collectively. Farrell doesn't do it for Sarries, and his kicks lack the precision that makes them contestable or reclaimable. Smith's cross-field kicks have been good but his attempted grubbers haven't worked, I think because he's still adapting to how much less time and space there is at International level.

...And the players around them don't for the most part have the instinctive sense of when a kick is on, so the reactions have been off.

Big question for Borthwick about whether he sticks with it as a tactic or not. It's not working now, but with a long training camp and a relatively easy pool could England get to a point where they can make it work by the business end of the tournament?

Dupont gave a masterclass in the potential rewards from doing it well...
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Post by king_carlos Fri 17 Mar - 15:22

The kicking game I actually think has shown promise over the tournament. I mentioned it a few times but the way they used Farrell, Malins and Steward to control the kick tennis I thought was working well given how early in the new set-up there are.

Likewise I thought they were doing a good job of kicking to compete at the breakdown after the kick and the phase following. This is less sexy than kicking to compete in the air and is often construed as just kicking too far. It can be extremely effective and much more reliable than competing in the air (which is a bit of a lottery most the time) when done well.

The backs I've been pretty lenient on from the France game though. Contact area and the breakdown were dominated to such a farcical degree they couldn't do much. You can't win games of rugby losing almost all your collisions.

Several backs had very poor individual games too if I'm being very critical. JvP certainly one. Smith with a bad day kicking from hand. Slade defensively.

Being incredibly critical here but I also had concerns about Lawrence from it. His game is reliant on physicality and watching Lawrence compared to Danty it did make me wonder if he has the physicality at that standard. With his level of passing and kicking game his carrying and contact work in general will need to be on the level of guys like Danty, Aki and Manu nearer his best. I did worry whether he's got that in the locker watching him against a more physical side. He's not really got the power of those centres who can consistently win collisions against forwards.

I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt after that forwards showing though. When your 3 starting back row are in the bottom 5 performers from 46 players seen on the day then back play is always going to struggle.

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Post by TJ Fri 17 Mar - 18:51

To a degree it has worked, even against France we had more territory and possession in their half than they did in ours. We got a lot of change out of Scotland.

Indeed you did. Gained a lot of territory from kicking despite the scots actually kicking well

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 17 Mar - 20:09

TJ wrote:
To a degree it has worked, even against France we had more territory and possession in their half than they did in ours. We got a lot of change out of Scotland.

Indeed you did.  Gained a lot of territory from kicking despite the scots actually kicking well

It's one of the areas that's actually working. We just need now to start turning the visits to the opposition 22 into points.

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Post by TJ Sat 18 Mar - 6:26

formerly known as Sam wrote:
TJ wrote:
To a degree it has worked, even against France we had more territory and possession in their half than they did in ours. We got a lot of change out of Scotland.

Indeed you did.  Gained a lot of territory from kicking despite the scots actually kicking well

It's one of the areas that's actually working. We just need now to start turning the visits to the opposition 22 into points.

Indeed. That was the issue not the kicking. the toothless attack. combined with a risk averse gameplan and the players not being in tune with each other

Watch France , Ireland and Scotland attacking with the ball in hand and you see much more misdirection and decoys and playing patterns designed to create space.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 18 Mar - 7:20

How and when we kick is an issue. And it's not tied to Evans as we were doing it consistently under Jones. Kicking as a first option while not seeing overlaps is almost criminal.

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Post by mountain man Sat 18 Mar - 7:48

No 7&1/2 wrote:How and when we kick is an issue. And it's not tied to Evans as we were doing it consistently under Jones. Kicking as a first option while not seeing overlaps is almost criminal.

Exactly. Farrell prime example against Scotland.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 18 Mar - 10:48

Almost looking forward to the post mortems of the impending carnage. Of course, after writing that England will probably play somewhat better leading to differing impressions about Borthwick's progress with the team. Hoping for a good game....

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 18 Mar - 11:13

doctor_grey wrote:Almost looking forward to the post mortems of the impending carnage.  Of course, after writing that England will probably play somewhat better leading to differing impressions about Borthwick's progress with the team.  Hoping for a good game....

I'm not that optimistic. We are likely to get absolutely smashed.

The difference between a team four years in the making to one that's 7 weeks in is going to be stark.

There have been some plus points from the 6N. The lineout and scrum are much improved. The tactical kicking game is working. If the defence could click for this weekend that would be a big help, to much to hope we'll see an attacking improvement.

At least we've got some caps into a lot of guys who were pretty inexperienced at this level a few weeks ago.

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Post by Geordie Sat 18 Mar - 19:37

So....6n done thank god

5 changes allowed for warm ups and world Cup. Plus I presume replacing those unavailable due to moving abroad like LCD and Ribbans.

So 7 changes.

Who do you bring in...and who goes?

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Post by carpet baboon Sat 18 Mar - 19:46

They have to make an exception for ribbans. I thought he was what the England pack has needed for a while

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 18 Mar - 19:53

Geordie wrote:So....6n done thank god

5 changes allowed for warm ups and world Cup. Plus I presume replacing those unavailable due to moving abroad like LCD and Ribbans.

So 7 changes.

Who do you bring in...and who goes?

Anyone allowed for the WC.

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