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England 2023 - Post 6N and beyond

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 21 Mar 2023, 9:57 pm

First topic message reminder :

Continued......

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 29 Mar 2023, 10:01 pm

Mallinder was a good player but he wasn't a flyhalf and really played there at under 20 level to facilitate England crow barring their best three centres into the same side with Jonny Williams and Joe Marchant outside him.

A lot of his defensive issues were down to Saints playing him at 12 whilst he had a shoulder issue. Was all to easy for teams to target his obvious weak side. At 15 he looked like he might work but it didn't come to pass. Saints have been pretty good at developing home-grown talent but they bodged Harry Mallinder. Anyone know how he's got on in Japan?

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Post by Geordie Wed 29 Mar 2023, 11:07 pm

Is it any different to the calls for Banahan to move there...the cokasaniga to move to centre etc etc.

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Post by cb Thu 30 Mar 2023, 12:32 am

It's a real shame Sam Simmonds never played there and learnt the position.  He seemed to have all the right attributes.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 30 Mar 2023, 12:40 am

Geordie wrote:Is it any different to the calls for Banahan to move there...the cokasaniga to move to centre etc etc.

Not really, he played 10 in age grade but broke through at 15 and was used at 12 for Saints to provide a second playmaker but retain a hard running threat at 12. Plenty of age grade 10s drop into 12 or 15.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 30 Mar 2023, 12:46 am

I feel a team selection of 'they should have played there' coming on.

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Post by dummy_half Thu 30 Mar 2023, 1:00 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Lol. I wouldn't want to see it for England until I knew he could play there, he does have some great skills that could transfer to 12, great running lines, great hands, obvious size. May be all at sea there though.

Sometimes everything looks like it should work and it just doesn't, this could be one of them. I still feel Harry Mallinder could have a been a revelation at 12 if only he would tackle occasionally....I think he's currently playing in Japan???

As we've discussed previously, Slade looks to have many of the attributes of a playmaking 12, but just doesn't play there regularly and when he does he looks lost. My worry for Steward being up in the defensive line is his relative lack of agility in defence - he's a big unit and has decent pace once moving, but I wonder about him getting stepped by a more nimble player. Happens to him at fullback (although obviously that's often a harder position in which to tackle, as you are the last line with a player able to go either way); also, I wonder if England will revert their defensive system to include the 12 rushing up to preven the play getting to the wide positions (as Farrell used to do all the time) - biggest disappointment of the 6Ns for me was that Sinfield's defensive system didn't seem to work.

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Post by Rugby Fan Thu 30 Mar 2023, 1:01 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I feel a team selection of 'they should have played there' coming on.

Ben Foden...

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Post by lostinwales Thu 30 Mar 2023, 1:27 am

Banahan was a 2nd row at age grade wasn't he? I seem to remember he was partnered with Tom Croft which must have been the fastest 2nd row combo ever (unless it is/was a Fiji combo)

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Post by dummy_half Thu 30 Mar 2023, 1:33 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I feel a team selection of 'they should have played there' coming on.

International selection

Props: Scott Gibbs (World's fastest prop) and the big Basteraud.
Hooker: Manu Tuillagi

2nd row: Bananaman and Allesio Tuillagi

Flankers: Nowell and Brian O'Driscoll

Number 8: Mike Phillips

SH - I so want to say Bergomasco, but will go with Shane Williams
10 - Parisse (of course the Italian version of this team would have him in bout 10 positions) or Zinzan Brooke

11 - Tom Croft
12 - Sam Simmonds
13 - Keith Wood
14 - Gethin Jenkins

15 - John Eales (well, he could play anywhere and do anything, so why not)

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 30 Mar 2023, 3:35 am

If Obatoyinbo keeps putting in performances like he did at the weekend, Steward might have some competition on his hands.

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Post by Yoda Thu 30 Mar 2023, 4:25 am

Tom Pearson and Gregory alldritt are the same weight and height. Could be worthwhile having him at 8 and play like alldritt does as a third flanker with pace and carrying ability. Interesting also that Willis is same height but heavier than both men. Willis is a good carrier in premiership so can definitely improve at international level to add to defensive, and turnover strengths.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 30 Mar 2023, 4:55 am

Willis hasn't showed anything of his carrying ability and has struggled to get turnovers. In the 2 games he did ok, he was mostly a defensive tackler....we need more.

Pearson has more in his locker than Willlis but needs to show this on the higher level.

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Post by Geordie Thu 30 Mar 2023, 7:37 pm

Yoda wrote:Tom Pearson and Gregory alldritt are the same weight and height. Could be worthwhile having him at 8 and play like alldritt does as a third flanker with pace and carrying ability. Interesting also that Willis is same height but heavier than both men. Willis is a good carrier in premiership so can definitely improve at international level to add to defensive, and turnover strengths.

Didnt realise Tom Pearson was 6'3 and around 17.5 stone. Big lad. Same size roughly as Zach Mercer.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 30 Mar 2023, 7:45 pm

Just about getting the right mix now. Borthwick has done some mixing and matching over these games but seemed to settle on 2 out and out flankers and a proper number 8. That's despite having big 6s available other than the injured Lawes. Guess as with the previous comments it'll be back end of the WC campaign when we will probably see the full extent of how he wants to play and what sort of players make that up. For me he should be looking to integrate anyone new he wants asap rather than wait until the next 6Ns. Give the run of games, debuts now. No one is really expecting us to win the thing (though it's a cup comp so anyone can) even Borthwick is talking down the team. Would just like us to be brave in some positions as Jones did on  a few occasions and pick someone thinking they'll be alright now but in 2 years they could be a key player.

Warm up games are Wales away then home, Ireland away then Fiji at home. Will need to hit the ground running to an extent as it's Argentina first up which will probably be our toughest game followed by Japan. Turnaround times shouldn't be an issue given the shortest of 6 days is for Chile.


For the mix match positions:
Banahan lock
Eastmond SH
Burgess a flanker
Barbeary for hooker.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 31 Mar 2023, 12:49 am

Felix Jones has joined the crew, or will do from SA after the WC.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 31 Mar 2023, 1:33 am

That's a really good appointment. Jones has got a strong reputation and experience coaching defence and attack.

Interesting to see a move towards more more fluidity between coaching roles with 'assistants' being named more often rather than the set in stone attack, defence, forwards, etc. Going back to Hansen's time with NZ they had a flexible setup. At one point when they wanted to refresh things without changing coaching personnel they simply rotated coaches into different roles. Ireland have crossover between Easterby and POC currently. England's successful times under Eddie saw crossover between Hatley and Borthwick with the forwards, then Borthwick and Gustard with the defence where Borthwick did a lot of defensive contact area work and fringe defence stuff that was so vital to Gustard's systems. Jones at the Boks has worked with the defence and attack I believe.

Another earlier example for England was Farrell having crossover from defence into early phase attacking plays under Lancaster whilst Catt was backs coach. At the time murmurings, could be false of course, were that it wasn't well received by players. It's clearly doing wonders for Ireland though as their ability to "use defence as a means to  start attack" as Faz Snr puts it is second to none now. Those systems are likely aided by that fluidity between roles.

Wigglesworth was named as "assistant" but will likely be a mixture of skills coaching (kicking and halfbacks) and backs. Jones presumably also working between attack and defence now. Sinfield leading defence. Then Peel rumoured to be joining for the scrum and forwards alongside Borthwick who specialises in the lineout and contact area. Walters for S&C. To me it looks a well rounded setup. It's a young one as coaching setups go but every member of it has had success in their short coaching careers.


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Post by Geordie Fri 31 Mar 2023, 2:28 am

KC has Peel been confirmed...thought Saracens had put a block o0n the move?

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Post by king_carlos Fri 31 Mar 2023, 3:43 am

I hadn't heard anything about a block from Sarries. From what I'd read and heard Peel was favourite to join at the end of the season for the RWC build up onwards hence why Cockers stayed in post for the Six Nations. Same situation as Wigglesworth and Walters staying until the end of the current club season before joining by my understanding.

He hasn't been formally confirmed though, no.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 31 Mar 2023, 4:10 am

Just read that LCD has a nerve issue in his neck in addition to recovering from his ankle issue. Hard to know what the neck issue is or what it means. Could be very minor or maybe a real problem. But the report I read indicated LCD might not play for Exeter the rest of the season. No more detail than that. And this could throw a big spanner in the mix for the RWC.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 31 Mar 2023, 6:06 am

Geordie wrote:KC has Peel been confirmed...thought Saracens had put a block o0n the move?

McCall in The Times wrote:McCall also dismissed reports that his scrum coach, Ian Peel, could be joining the England set-up. “We are very lucky to have Ian at our club and he has a number of years left on his contract,” McCall said. “Fingers crossed he will be here for a long time.”

That's at the bottom of an article largely about Farrell's injury that I hadn't seen when posting the above. So looks like it's still in negotiation.

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Post by Geordie Fri 31 Mar 2023, 8:49 am

Thought I'd heard something...maybe just formalities to go through...

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Post by lostinwales Fri 31 Mar 2023, 9:14 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Willis hasn't showed anything of his carrying ability and has struggled to get turnovers. In the 2 games he did ok, he was mostly a defensive tackler....we need more.

Pearson has more in his locker than Willlis but needs to show this on the higher level.

He was carrying pre that injury. Didn't he score with almost the first touch of the ball?

As for now I would imagine that they have given him a job which he's doing. They keep picking him so I guess they like what they see.

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Post by Geordie Fri 31 Mar 2023, 6:26 pm

He had a big game against Ireland...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 31 Mar 2023, 7:11 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Just read that LCD has a nerve issue in his neck in addition to recovering from his ankle issue.  Hard to know what the neck issue is or what it means.  Could be very minor or maybe a real problem.  But the report I read indicated LCD might not play for Exeter the rest of the season.  No more detail than that.  And this could throw a big spanner in the mix for the RWC.

Sounds a bit ominous. Rumours denied that the move to France is under threat, which immediately makes me think the move to France is under threat. Whatever happens over the next couple of years I hope that Borthwick does offer a bit more experience to some key positions. We find ourselves too often going into games with an option at hooker or scrum half etc with a really inexperienced player on the bench. I'm not overly bothered in giving players a debut in a big game but we saw Jones then not trust Spencer (WC) and we've seen something similar with Borthwick and Walker. It's almost to the detriment of the performance on the day as you see the starter flagging but the coach wanting the experience. If that's going to be your view you simply have to give more experience in summer tours, vs Italy etc etc.

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Post by dummy_half Fri 31 Mar 2023, 9:42 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Just read that LCD has a nerve issue in his neck in addition to recovering from his ankle issue.  Hard to know what the neck issue is or what it means.  Could be very minor or maybe a real problem.  But the report I read indicated LCD might not play for Exeter the rest of the season.  No more detail than that.  And this could throw a big spanner in the mix for the RWC.

Sounds a bit ominous. Rumours denied that the move to France is under threat, which immediately makes me think the move to France is under threat. Whatever happens over the next couple of years I hope that Borthwick does offer a bit more experience to some key positions. We find ourselves too often going into games with an option at hooker or scrum half etc with a really inexperienced player on the bench. I'm not overly bothered in giving players a debut in a big game but we saw Jones then not trust Spencer (WC) and we've seen something similar with Borthwick and Walker. It's almost to the detriment of the performance on the day as you see the starter flagging but the coach wanting the experience. If that's going to be your view you simply have to give more experience in summer tours, vs Italy etc etc.

First one - never believe anything until it has officially been denied

Second - It can be a bit of a catch 22 though, especially if you haven't had good enough players coming through in those positions. There is a reason that Youngs and Care were so often the pair of scrum halves picked, and it only partly relates to the quality of their performance, and much more to the lack of obvious candidates to replace them.

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Post by Geordie Fri 31 Mar 2023, 9:53 pm

Spencer was an obvious replacement? Never even looked at by Jones.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 31 Mar 2023, 10:06 pm

dummy_half wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Just read that LCD has a nerve issue in his neck in addition to recovering from his ankle issue.  Hard to know what the neck issue is or what it means.  Could be very minor or maybe a real problem.  But the report I read indicated LCD might not play for Exeter the rest of the season.  No more detail than that.  And this could throw a big spanner in the mix for the RWC.

Sounds a bit ominous. Rumours denied that the move to France is under threat, which immediately makes me think the move to France is under threat. Whatever happens over the next couple of years I hope that Borthwick does offer a bit more experience to some key positions. We find ourselves too often going into games with an option at hooker or scrum half etc with a really inexperienced player on the bench. I'm not overly bothered in giving players a debut in a big game but we saw Jones then not trust Spencer (WC) and we've seen something similar with Borthwick and Walker. It's almost to the detriment of the performance on the day as you see the starter flagging but the coach wanting the experience. If that's going to be your view you simply have to give more experience in summer tours, vs Italy etc etc.

First one - never believe anything until it has officially been denied

Second - It can be a bit of a catch 22 though, especially if you haven't had good enough players coming through in those positions. There is a reason that Youngs and Care were so often the pair of scrum halves picked, and it only partly relates to the quality of their performance, and much more to the lack of obvious candidates to replace them.
Denial is the first step toward acceptance?  Only in sports, politics, or marriage!

Agree about the catch-22.  Jamie George was gassed toward the end of most of the Six Nations games. Can't burn him out like that or he won't be able to make it to - or through - the RWC.  And if LCD does have a long term neck issue, then who comes in as George's back-up?

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Post by Geordie Fri 31 Mar 2023, 10:28 pm

So why not give Blamire another shot? Why not give Walker MORE gametime.....

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 01 Apr 2023, 12:37 am

Geordie wrote:So why not give Blamire another shot? Why not give Walker MORE gametime.....
That's kind of where I was going. I rate Blamire over Walker regardless. But, in the Six Nations Walker was there, he needed to play, especially when George was running on fumes. And if Borthwick didn't have confidence, he should have picked someone else.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 01 Apr 2023, 3:31 am

Geordie wrote:Spencer was an obvious replacement? Never even looked at by Jones.
The issue here is that Spencer left Sarries at 28 having only really had the 9 shirt as his own in the that final season. Even then he was subbed on 42 minutes for Wigglesworth in the Prem final for instance. Prior to that last season Wigglesworth was starting the big games.

I'm not sure he ever was an obvious international player as sometimes made out. Simply a well rounded one with a good kicking game that would seem to lend itself to the Jones game plan. I wouldn't say he ever stood out consistently at club level from a young age as Quirke or JvP have for instance. Prior to the 2017/18 season where he turned 26 the most senior games he started in one season was 8.

For perspective Quirke made 10 starts, including 2 in the Champions Cup, for Sale in the 2021/22 season where he turned 21.

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Post by Geordie Sat 01 Apr 2023, 5:35 am

But KC players develop at different rates. Maybe Spencer was 28 or 29...if he was playing a nice alround game then surely he was worth a look, which didn't really happen. Even if he was only available for a few years...then great.

It doesn't always have to be about the four year cycle...look to the short term aswell, as the 6n is massive for all the teams and particularly the fans involved.

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Post by Geordie Sat 01 Apr 2023, 5:39 am

doctor_grey wrote:
Geordie wrote:So why not give Blamire another shot? Why not give Walker MORE gametime.....
That's kind of where I was going.  I rate Blamire over Walker regardless.  But, in the Six Nations Walker was there, he needed to play, especially when George was running on fumes.  And if Borthwick didn't have confidence, he should have picked someone else.    

Definitely.

Blmaire has just been let go and forgotten about. He's playing some good rugby. but if Borthwick has doubts that's fine.

He's picked Walker and barely had five mins. You need to give your back ups plenty of time...

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 01 Apr 2023, 8:56 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Willis hasn't showed anything of his carrying ability and has struggled to get turnovers. In the 2 games he did ok, he was mostly a defensive tackler....we need more.

Pearson has more in his locker than Willlis but needs to show this on the higher level.

He was carrying pre that injury. Didn't he score with almost the first touch of the ball?

As for now I would imagine that they have given him a job which he's doing. They keep picking him so I guess they like what they see.

All he's added is tackling....that's not good enough.

18 carries for 29m is almost Borthwickesq (perhaps that's why he's playing) and only 2 turnover in 4 games....its just not good reading. He's not carrying, he's not great in the line-out, he's not really getting turnovers.....

I know he has a cult following for some reason on here, but he's just not that good.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 01 Apr 2023, 8:58 pm

Spot on April fool that!

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 01 Apr 2023, 9:00 pm

Geordie wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
Geordie wrote:So why not give Blamire another shot? Why not give Walker MORE gametime.....
That's kind of where I was going.  I rate Blamire over Walker regardless.  But, in the Six Nations Walker was there, he needed to play, especially when George was running on fumes.  And if Borthwick didn't have confidence, he should have picked someone else.    

Definitely.  

Blmaire has just been let go and forgotten about. He's playing some good rugby. but if Borthwick has doubts that's fine.

He's picked Walker and barely had five mins. You need to give your back ups plenty of time...

All I can think with Blamire is his throwing can be a bit iffy. He work around the park is better than most of the other options though.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 01 Apr 2023, 9:54 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Geordie wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
Geordie wrote:So why not give Blamire another shot? Why not give Walker MORE gametime.....
That's kind of where I was going.  I rate Blamire over Walker regardless.  But, in the Six Nations Walker was there, he needed to play, especially when George was running on fumes.  And if Borthwick didn't have confidence, he should have picked someone else.    

Definitely.  

Blmaire has just been let go and forgotten about. He's playing some good rugby. but if Borthwick has doubts that's fine.

He's picked Walker and barely had five mins. You need to give your back ups plenty of time...

All I can think with Blamire is his throwing can be a bit iffy. He work around the park is better than most of the other options though.
Outside of a healthy LCD, who are the other options? For me Blamire would be next in the queue.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 01 Apr 2023, 10:09 pm

A lot of averageness Doc I think.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 01 Apr 2023, 10:18 pm

I don't know why Blamire was dropped from Jones squad tbh. The point on iffy darts didn't show itself for England, he was basically coming on looking very good in the setpiece and scoring loads. Walker himself has an suspect lineout but for me it's still better to have fresh men on the pitch at the end.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 01 Apr 2023, 10:23 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't know why Blamire was dropped from Jones squad tbh. The point on iffy darts didn't show itself for England, he was basically coming on looking very good in the setpiece and scoring loads. Walker himself has an suspect lineout but for me it's still better to have fresh men on the pitch at the end.
That's exactly the point Sarge and I are talking. Just thinking about the Scotland game in particular. George was completely done in the last 10-15 minutes and still playing (no one questioning his commitment). Didn't help the team and a potential danger to the player.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 02 Apr 2023, 6:28 am

I'd concur. I'd have Blamire in the squad.

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Post by Cumbrian Sun 02 Apr 2023, 7:18 am

I genuinely think there are a lot of very good players out there in the Premiership, but it is a question of assembly and application, can they be forged into a competitive team? Remains to be seen.
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Post by king_carlos Sun 02 Apr 2023, 9:40 am

Geordie wrote:But KC players develop at different rates. Maybe Spencer was 28 or 29...if he was playing a nice alround game then surely he was worth a look, which didn't really happen. Even if he was only available for a few years...then great.

It doesn't always have to be about the four year cycle...look to the short term aswell, as the 6n is massive for all the teams and particularly the fans involved.
I don't think Spencer ever really looked such a standout at Prem level that he would definitely translate to international level even for a few years is my point though GF. I think he's a good Premiership player who looked even better in that incredible Sarries side.

I don't think I'm someone who wants us to constantly look for the next 10 year, Tom Curry or Owen Farrell type player either. I'm very happy seeing Mark Wilson's come in and succeed briefly.

I just don't think Spencer was that player. The common retort was/is "no one can be worse that Youngs". I'm a poster who used to get pelted on the Tigers offy (actually gave up posting there for a while) and unoffy for criticising Youngs. But Care upon his recall, Robson's cameos and some of Randall's performances proved that wrong IMO.

I argued, not alone but alongside LondonTiger and at times even the occasionally Tigers-phobic Sarge, that whilst Youngs had declined the point to get rid was when better 9s were available. Not for something shiny from the Prem (i.e. Care despite having 80+ caps across three head coaches without ever nailing a starting shirt...) because they looked good against weaker defences. Once Quirke, JvP and to an extent Mitchell have come through I'm very happy they are getting the exposure instead.

I'd point out that I'm now employing similar logic but against Youngs as well. He's been genuinely fantastic over the last month for Tigers. The closest to peak Ben Youngs I've seen for years. I'm not arguing a recall though because as we've seen recently standing out at Premiership level isn't a fool proof indicator of international quality!

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Post by king_carlos Sun 02 Apr 2023, 9:54 am

Cumbrian wrote:I genuinely think there  are a lot of very good players out there in the Premiership, but it is a question of assembly and application, can they be forged into a competitive team?  Remains to be seen.
I think there's fantastic talent in the Premiership coming from academies. Whether that's getting tested and therefore progressing in the Prem as needed is a different question.

As said before whilst 'lower cap, less journeymen squad players, more academy grads filling places' looks good for development I actually think that combined with no relegation has led to a dive bomb in not only quality but vitally physicality and fitness in games between/against lower league sides especially. With relegation and the much maligned journeyman the lower league games weren't pretty but by god were they physical. When 11th and 12th came up against each other those clubmen in their late twenties knew they were potentially playing for their careers. If their team went down maybe they didn't get another contract. They prepared and played like it. Put a few 19-year-old academy grads out in the same game with no relegation and it's almost an extension of U20s. The youngsters are enjoying a first senior runout and the senior players are going through the motions looking a bit pudgier than a round or two earlier when they could mathematically still make the top 8 for the Champions Cup.

Chatting to a journalist pal who works in rugby he said a hilarious/telling comment from a Prem player at such a club was that the 'extras' in training such as additional defence, set-piece or fitness work after a bad week had become a bit like core work at the end of a casual gym session in that latter stage of the season. "Meh, there's not many of those yoga mats free maybe we'll do it next week". It has shown IMO.

We are now seeing players who excel at Prem level look shell shocked against the physicality and fitness of good international sides. Talent isn't an issue but how that talent is being prepared for the step-up is.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 02 Apr 2023, 4:33 pm

king_carlos wrote:
Geordie wrote:But KC players develop at different rates. Maybe Spencer was 28 or 29...if he was playing a nice alround game then surely he was worth a look, which didn't really happen. Even if he was only available for a few years...then great.

It doesn't always have to be about the four year cycle...look to the short term aswell, as the 6n is massive for all the teams and particularly the fans involved.
I don't think Spencer ever really looked such a standout at Prem level that he would definitely translate to international level even for a few years is my point though GF. I think he's a good Premiership player who looked even better in that incredible Sarries side.

I don't think I'm someone who wants us to constantly look for the next 10 year, Tom Curry or Owen Farrell type player either. I'm very happy seeing Mark Wilson's come in and succeed briefly.

I just don't think Spencer was that player. The common retort was/is "no one can be worse that Youngs". I'm a poster who used to get pelted on the Tigers offy (actually gave up posting there for a while) and unoffy for criticising Youngs. But Care upon his recall, Robson's cameos and some of Randall's performances proved that wrong IMO.

I argued, not alone but alongside LondonTiger and at times even the occasionally Tigers-phobic Sarge, that whilst Youngs had declined the point to get rid was when better 9s were available. Not for something shiny from the Prem (i.e. Care despite having 80+ caps across three head coaches without ever nailing a starting shirt...) because they looked good against weaker defences. Once Quirke, JvP and to an extent Mitchell have come through I'm very happy they are getting the exposure instead.

I'd point out that I'm now employing similar logic but against Youngs as well. He's been genuinely fantastic over the last month for Tigers. The closest to peak Ben Youngs I've seen for years. I'm not arguing a recall though because as we've seen recently standing out at Premiership level isn't a fool proof indicator of international quality!

I shall wear this as a badge of honour, merci KC!

Funny one Youngs....I was a huge fan of his when he broke through but then in his later years he went right off the boil...he breaks dried up and his deficiencies were highlighted more (basically his poor passing). I know Robson gets lambasted often for never producing in an England shirt (I agree he didn't)....but he was never even given a start, never mind a run of games like JVP has been given....despite being quite awful in pretty much half of his appearances.

I personally think Youngs is still better than JVP and Mitchell is better than both of them.  I think we could have a real gem on our hands in Mitchell if he was given any kind of backing like JVP has be given. I think this talk of fitness and defensive issues are utter rubbish tbh.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 02 Apr 2023, 6:14 pm

Little bit of the problem with Youngs and a few others with a lot of caps is that there can be a view to rate them on their numerous very good appearances and ignore their latest. The phrase that form is temporary was chucked in his direction a few times. You do get a bit of leeway once you've produced a run of games more sp that some will give at the start of your career but with England it has become a bit of a trend that we're keeping hold of players too long, without the same benefit to newbies.

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Post by George Carlin Sun 02 Apr 2023, 9:29 pm

Ben Youngs' most pressing challenge must be that by now he is 59 years old?

And only 2 years younger than Johnny 'Iron Lung' Sexton.
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Post by mountain man Sun 02 Apr 2023, 10:28 pm

Youngs issue is although a very good 9, not quick enough these days and poor decision making under pressure in Int. Hence far too many box kicks and poor ones at that.
However, after a very impressive start with Eng last year JvP seems similarly slow at break down which is puzzling as he was so sharp.
Mitchell and Quirke definitely quicker.

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Post by Rugby Fan Sun 02 Apr 2023, 11:50 pm

Zach Mercer red carded during the Exeter-Montpellier match.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 03 Apr 2023, 3:24 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Little bit of the problem with Youngs and a few others with a lot of caps is that there can be a view to rate them on their numerous very good appearances and ignore their latest. The phrase that form is temporary was chucked in his direction a few times. You do get a bit of leeway once you've produced a run of games more sp that some will give at the start of your career but with England it has become a bit of a trend that we're keeping hold of players too long, without the same benefit to newbies.
That's back to the discussion of whether the Prem is currently preparing players for the step up though I think with regards to players being held onto too long.

As I've mentioned a few times we've now seen a lot of the 2016-19 vintage sent back to their clubs looking past it only to look far better than the competition with a run of club games. Both Vunipola's, Ford, Cole, Marler, Daly this season prior to injury. Even Manu on his showing against Ireland I'd be inclined to put in that category. He's a blunt instrument but offered a physicality in defence and attack that had been missing.

Billy was excellent in his head to head with Dombrandt against Quins and has been praised by a lot of pundits and fans. I also thought Mako was terrific in that game though after having limited bench impact outside of a good showing against Italy and Wales over the Six Nations. That's a real concern.

Jones was lambasted for being fairly open about not considering the Premiership as a great indicator of international potential but I'd honestly say it's being somewhat vindicated.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 03 Apr 2023, 3:35 am

Thinks it a pretty good point and if I'm honest i don't think any league or clubs sets you up for a completely smooth transition. Leinster and Ireland do it well at the mo as they're provid8ngmmost players, Saracens have been a nice step previously to make it easier. It's always a big step and the balance of respective teams have a lot to do with it. I also think that it takes a a good run to hlhet the best out of players. Been the recipien t of that myself this 6Ns with Curry. I obviously prefer Willis as he's the far superior player on imo but after watching the former vs Scotland I wasn't I'm rush to see him.play for England again
He did them show up really well in the latter games. It would be nice if everyone started like a steam train but it's difficult to do especially with a whole set of new coaches too.

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