Prem Round 5

Friday
Gloucester v Bath - 19.45

Saturday
Bristol v Sale 14.30
Leicester v Quins 15.05

Sunday
Newcastle v Saracens 15.00
Saints v Chiefs 15.00

Glaws v Bath, Friday night
Ref: Matthew Carley
TJs: Sara Cox & Jonathan Healy
TMO: David Rose

Gloucester:
1. Mayco Vivas
2. George McGuigan
3. Fraser Balmain
4. Freddie Clarke
5. Matias Alemanno
6. Jack Clement
7. Lewis Ludlow
8. Albert Tuisue

15. Santi Carreras
14. Jonny May
13. Chris Harris
12. Seb Atkinson
11. Ollie Thorley
10. George Barton
9. Stephen Varney

16. Santi Socino, 17. Jamal Ford-Robinson, 18. Kirill Gotovtsev, 19. Freddie Thomas, 20. Ben Donnell
21. Micky Young, 22. Max Llewellyn, 23. Louis Rees-Zammit

Bath:
1 Beno Obano
2 Tom Dunn
3 Will Stuart
4 Fergus Lee-Warner
5 Charlie Ewels
6 Miles Reid
7 Sam Underhill
8 Alfie Barbeary

09 Ben Spencer
10 Finn Russell
11 Will Muir
12 Max Ojomoh
13 Ollie Lawrence
14 Joe Cokanasiga
15 Tom de Glanville

16 Niall Annett, 17 Juan Schoeman, 18 Thomas du Toit, 19 Josh McNally, 20 Jaco Coetzee
21 Tom Carr-Smith, 22 Sam Harris, 23 Matt Gallagher

Newcastle Falcons v Saracens (Sunday, 3pm, Kingston Park)

15 Elliott Obatoyinbo,
14 Adam Radwan,
13 Matias Orlando,
12 Rory Jennings,
11 Iwan Stephens,
10 Brett Connon,
9 Hugh O'Sullivan;

1 Adam Brocklebank,
2 Jamie Blamire,
3 Eduardo Bello,
4 Pedro Rubiolo,
5 Sebastian de Chaves,
6 Freddie Lockwood,
7 Sam Cross,
8 Callum Chick (captain).

Replacements: 16 Bryan Byrne, 17 Phil Brantingham, 18 Murray McCallum, 19 John Hawkins, 20 Philip van der Walt, 21 Sam Stuart, 22 Cameron Hutchison, 23 Ben Stevenson.

Not available for selection: Mateo Carreras, Nathan Greenwood, Ollie Leatherbarrow, Matias Moroni, Richard Palframan, Tom Penny, Adam Scott, Marcus Tiffen.

Saracens:
15 Elliot Daly,
14 Sean Maitland,
13 Alex Lozowski,
12 Nick Tompkins,
11 Alex Lewington,
10 Alex Goode (captain),

9 Ivan van Zyl;
1 Eroni Mawi,
2 Theo Dan,
3 Alec Clarey,
4 Callum Hunter-Hill,
5 Hugh Tizard,
6 Juan Martin Gonzalez,
7 Andy Christie,
8 Tom Willis.

Replacements: 16 James Hadfield, 17 Tom West, 18 Christian Judge, 19 Ollie Stonham, 20 Billy Vunipola, 21 Gareth Simpson, 22 Manu Vunipola, 23 Lucio Cinti.

Referee: Anthony Woodthorpe.

Leicester v Quins
15 Mike Brown [13]
14 Freddie Steward [72]
13 Dan Kelly [63]
12 Solomone Kata [1]
11 Josh Bassett [6]
10 Handré Pollard [15]
9 Ben Youngs [302]

1 Francois van Wyk [37]
2 Charlie Clare [84]
3 Dan Cole [310]
4 Cameron Henderson [43]
5 Ollie Chessum [43]
6 Hanro Liebenberg (c) [91]
7 Tommy Reffell [102]
8 Jasper Wiese [61]

REPLACEMENTS

16 Archie Vanes [9]
17 James Cronin [18]
18 Will Hurd [31]
19 Sam Carter [6]
20 Matt Rogerson [6]
21 Tom Whiteley [11]
22 Charlie Atkinson [23]
23 Matt Scott [66]

Quins
1. Joe Marler (268)
2. Sam Riley (36)
3. Will Collier (225)
4. Joe Launchbury (6)
5. George Hammond (49)
6. Dino Lamb (86)
7. Will Evans (69)
8. Alex Dombrandt (119 - Captain)

9. Will Porter (5)
10. Marcus Smith (141)
11. Louis Lynagh (50)
12. Lennox Anyanwu (17)
13. Oscar Beard (35)
14. Tyrone Green (55)
15. Nick David (37)

Impact Players:

16. Jack Walker (44)
17. Fin Baxter (30)
18. Dillon Lewis (1)
19. Irne Herbst (28)
20. James Chisholm (136)
21. Danny Care (358)
22. Jarrod Evans (4)
23. Andre Esterhuizen (70)

Not available for selection: Stephan Lewies, Cadan Murley, Luke Northmore, Will Joseph, Jack Kenningham

Exeter Chiefs v Saints

15 Tommy Wyatt
14 Immanuel Feyi-Waboso
13 Henry Slade
12 Joe Hawkins
11 Ben Hammersley
10 Harvey Skinner
9 Tom Cairns

1 Nika Abuladze
2 Dan Frost
3 Josh Iosefa-Scott
4 Dafydd Jenkins (c)
5 Lewis Pearson
6 Ethan Roots
7 Jacques Vermeulen
8 Ross Vintcent

Replacements:
16 Jack Yeandle
17 Scott Sio
18 Ehren Painter
19 Rusi Tuima
20 Aidon Davis
21 Niall Armstrong
22 Will Haydon-Wood
23 Tom Hendrickson

Saints
Northampton Saints

15 George Hendy
14 Tom Seabrook
13 Tommy Freeman
12 Fraser Dingwall
11 James Ramm
10 Fin Smith
9 Alex Mitchell

1 Alex Waller
2 Curtis Langdon
3 Paul Hill
4 Alex Moon
5 Chunya Munga
6 Courtney Lawes
7 Angus Scott-Young
8 Sam Graham

Replacements:
16 Sam Matavesi
17 Ethan Waller
18 Trevor Davison
19 Alex Coles
20 Tom Pearson
21 Tom James
22 Rory Hutchinson
23 Tom Litchfield

Bristol v Sale

Bristol Bears team to face Sale Sharks at Ashton Gate on Saturday, November 11th (2.30pm KO):

15. Max Malins (19 apps),
14. Noah Heward (9 apps),
13. Virimi Vakatawa (4 apps),
12. Benhard Janse van Rensburg (7 apps),
11. Rich Lane (22 apps),
10. Callum Sheedy (157 apps),
9. Harry Randall (108 apps);
1. Jake Woolmore (137 apps),
2. Gabriel Oghre (debut),
3. Kyle Sinckler (44 apps),
4. Josh Caulfield (8 apps),
5. Joe Batley (46 apps),
6. Magnus Bradbury (28 apps),
7. Harry Thacker (106 apps),
8. Fitz Harding (c) (58 apps).

Replacements: 16. Will Capon (78 apps), 17. Sam Grahamslaw (1 app), 18. George Kloska (35 apps), 19. James Dun (20 apps), 20. Dan Thomas (134 apps), 21. Kieran Marmion (8 apps), 22. James Williams (23 apps), 23. Gabriel Ibitoye (24 apps).

Unavailable: Ellis Genge, Yann Thomas, Jay Tyack, Jono Benz-Salomon, Chris Vui, Steven Luatua, Santiago Grondona, AJ MacGinty, Siva Naulago, Jack Bates.

Sales Team
15 Sam James,
14 Tom Roebuck,
13 Rob du Preez ,
12 Sam Bedlow,
11 Arron Reed,
10 George Ford,
9 Gus Warr;

1 Bevan Rodd,
2 Agustin Creevy,
3 Nick Schonert,
4 Cobus Wiese,
5 Josh Beaumont,
6 Ernst van Rhyn,
7 Ben Curry,
8 Dan du Preez.

Replacements: 16 Luke Cowan-Dickie, 17 Si McIntyre, 18 James Harper, 19 Ben Bamber, 20 Rouban Birch, 21 Nye Thomas, 22 Joe Carpenter, 23 Sam Dugdale.

Lots of potential England trialists in this game

Both inside centres looking handy early doors. Johnny May looking sharp as well.

Will Stuart has had an awful 10 mins.

Stuart should not be in the England squad.
Barbeary doing nothing to say he shpuld either.

Seb Atkinson quietly doing a nice job at 12

Sam Underhill is a fricken physical beast

I think they are lining Barbeary up somewhat, every time he gets the ball he has somebody in his face and another hefty defender waiting to hit him. Think Clement has done well for Gloucester. Although they haven't come out of the changing rooms in this second half yet. Another try and Bath will run away with it.

Gloucester completely falling apart now, turning into a right shoeing.

Ridiculous try for Bath to concede, where are the guards around the ruck? Lazy play.

So Barbeary injured again?

I think he took a knock, but he ran it off and then get subbed a little after that. I think he's probably a bit sore, but I don't think it is anything that will keep him out for long.

Six tries at Kingsholm, we'll take that. Starting to see Russell's game management with a couple of robust centre's and two massive wingers. Hill, Bayliss and Cloete to come back from injury to keep up the back row resources and pressure opposition breakdowns. A relatively light but mobile second row did well and Du Toit is looking like an astute signing and can't stop scoring. Hopeful signs.

I watched him play at Racing and the style of play from Bath is incredibly similar. The pack won that game in the 3rd quarter. From then on Bath had total control of the scoreboard and the last Lawrence try was cherry on the cake.

Although Lawrence walked in two tries, I have been really impressed with the trajectory of Max Ojomoh and he looks to have taken his game up another level this season. He is one I'd expect to see playing for England very soon which scares me as a Scotland fan.

Listening to Lol try to explain even a simple rugby law is painful.

He's a genuinely dogs**t pundit.

Tigers and Quins are having a battle to see which sides defence can be better described as amateur currently. The number of soft first up hits and dire organisation have ben startling at times. Seeing both defences frequently lose all alignment after one carrier gets over the gain line feels like a depressing representation of the league these days.

Entertaining half from a neutral point of view. Has looked a bit chaotic at times, but plenty of endeavour on show.

That Kelly knock on squandered a chance to go 60 metres after Wiese's carry. Then another poor defensive set allows a very good offload from Smith, another Quins try.

A high scoring first half but one of the lower quality ones you'll see in terms of fundamentals. Abject defence from both sides and only a handful of players hitting contact with a notable level of physicality for the modern game. Or in other words, "a great game", as the Prem now works.

On Tigers specifically. The attack has been better with some big carriers back and Pollard showing his class. The defence has belonged in the Championship (and not when the Championship was decent) a lot of the time, lineout remains poor and kicking tactics once again questionable. A frustrating watch from a group of players that can do much more.

Quins back three looking excellent on the ball as expected. Dino Lamb busy - good coup for Italy as a lock given it's a position they've struggled with recently. Will Porter has impressed me too. He never really caught my eye at Wasps.

Estherhuizen should have a field day coming into this unless Tigers really tighten up though. I'd love to see Emeka Ilione on early for a breakdown threat and Matt Scott to hopefully tighten the defensive alignment in midfield from 13.

I'd be absolutely spitting if a ref interrupted a lineout move like that and the opposition subsequently scored from it to be fair.

He really should have blown up, it was quite unfair on Quins.

Although these things tend to even themselves up, so we'll see what happens going forward...

If either side keeps the ball for a few phases they score. Defence is like a captains run when you have the bench and a few travelling reserves running a notional defensive pattern. Jesus, it's poor rugby.

When factoring in the quality of players in each squad and the decent conditions this might be the most disappointing game in terms of quality that I can remember from the league in over a decade. You get games with more absentees and dire conditions in the middle of winter of course. Real slug fest games which I generally enjoy but often aren't the highest quality. These are two sides that should be eyeing the playoffs, with strong teams on paper and decent conditions though. The gulf between the quality this sort of game should be and where this has been is pretty astonishing. The drop in standard in the Prem over the last few years worries me so much.

Quins deserved winners in one of the lowest quality affairs I can remember at this level. I'd say Will Porter or Dino Lamb would be my MOM from a game with few standout individual performances.

The only potential excuse for a match that error strewn would be the internationals who were newly integrated. With the players there it simply has to be better if the Prem isn't to continue it's race to the bottom though. Just abject stuff a lot of the game.

Tigers were truly dire considering the players in the squad. The slight upside in the first half was the attack taking advantage of Quins being sporting in matching amateur defensive patterns. In the second half even that wasn't there though. On what we've seen so far I wouldn't be surprised or upset if McKellar is in the Oz job by the Rugby Championship. He's clearly a very well regarded coach by a lot of people in the game that know more than me but something isn't working there currently.

Emeka Ilione looks like he'll be a brilliant rugby player. That's about it that I'd like to remember from that game.

Just seen Tempest's obstruction that led to one of Leicester's tries. Simply unbelievable that it was allowed.

Duty281 wrote:Just seen Tempest's obstruction that led to one of Leicester's tries. Simply unbelievable that it was allowed.

Not really. Quins get the ball back from the lineout. It's not Tempest's fault that after Quins get the ball back the Quins centre drops the ball and Tigers react quickest. Neither the ball nor the ball carrier are effected the ref, what's he obstructing, Dombrant hypothetically getting there? There's got to be a clear and immediate impact, Tigers intercept or ball hits ref and there's maybe a case. Not really a Tempest fan but he did alright today.

Was a good game, plenty of attacking play from both sides. Tigers losing Reffell was massive and left Quins and particularly Evans free to be all over the breakdown until Ilione entered the game to add some parity. Cronin being unable to catch anything and bungling a simple catch and flop over from a metre was particularly galling. Hammond did a good job for Quins at lineout time, he's enjoying a fine start to the season.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Just seen Tempest's obstruction that led to one of Leicester's tries. Simply unbelievable that it was allowed.

Not really. Quins get the ball back from the lineout. It's not Tempest's fault that after Quins get the ball back the Quins centre drops the ball and Tigers react quickest. Neither the ball nor the ball carrier are effected the ref, what's he obstructing, Dombrant hypothetically getting there? There's got to be a clear and immediate impact, Tigers intercept or ball hits ref and there's maybe a case. Not really a Tempest fan but he did alright today.

Was a good game, plenty of attacking play from both sides. Tigers losing Reffell was massive and left Quins and particularly Evans free to be all over the breakdown until Ilione entered the game to add some parity. Cronin being unable to catch anything and bungling a simple catch and flop over from a metre was particularly galling. Hammond did a good job for Quins at lineout time, he's enjoying a fine start to the season.

No, but it is Tempest’s fault entirely that he runs a line that takes out the clear intended receiver. That’s a clear and immediate impact. Dombrandt would almost certainly have caught the ball, because it’s a move Quins use regularly, including earlier in the same game.

Tempest hid behind the Law in his interpretation but it was an awful call to have disrupted a team’s set piece and not allow a reset.

Other than the poor officiating, I don’t get where KC is coming from in calling it low quality. There were a few bad decisions, handling errors and dumb kicks on both sides, but the setpieces were largely solid and the tries were all well worked. Defensively both teams had some strong patches and good turnovers, and the penalty count was low.

To be honest I was calling for the TMO on the earlier lineout move with Dombrant because he looked to beyond the 15m line before the ball was thrown in. No review. I wonder if Tempest was wondering the same and trying to get a good look.

Defence was poor but I thought mainly for Tigers because they had no one slowing the ball down so Quins nearly always had momentum. In attack both teams showed a bit of enterprise but I'd agree nothing out of this world.

Yeah, I think Dombrandt is definitely getting there and Tempest has stopped him playing the ball (not deliberately, of course). Would expect a scrum to be given, but fortunately it didn't have an impact on the result.

Poorfour wrote:Other than the poor officiating, I don’t get where KC is coming from in calling it low quality. There were a few bad decisions, handling errors and dumb kicks on both sides, but the setpieces were largely solid and the tries were all well worked. Defensively both teams had some strong patches and good turnovers, and the penalty count was low.

It's one of those Prem games for me that we see so much of now that is a bit like the sporting equivalent of a homogenous sitcom with a never ending number of series or a romcom with 6 out of 10 on IMDb. It's easy to sit through if it's there and enjoyable enough in its way but will be forgotten in a matter of hours, let alone days. Easy tries with individual moments that flirt quality but a ton of dross connecting the dots. The issue with easy watching is that it's generally just as easy to give it a miss. I'm about as obsessed as rugby fans get, my team plays in the league and I really struggle to stay engaged with so many Prem games now. The intensity too often just feels so low as if games are just drifting through the motions.

It's really good players perplexingly involved in many of the poor things too. Chessum had a terrific RWC and just looked meh. Slipping an easy tackle on Porter being the cherry on that. At one point Smith made a tackle attempt on Kata where it genuinely looked like he touched his hips with both hands then remembered they were playing contact when Kata kept running.

Over the last few 5 years it feels like the elite end of the game has developed very quickly. Internationals are the highest level I've ever seen in terms of the tactical complexity, physicality and skills. The Top 14 is outstanding and the French system has multiple professional leagues below it. The URC still has issues with teams rotating almost comically at times in the regular season but overall I'd say standards there have risen on average with the SA teams coming in.

Then we've got the Prem. It had 13 pro teams in a cutthroat 12 team league with games that mattered and sides that competed in Europe. The biggest concern was the P-share side that got relegated bouncing back up. Jesus, I'd love clubs yo-yoing to be the problem now. Instead we've got a 10 team, ringfenced mess that's a lower quality than where the same league was 5 years ago. I really worry for the league.

Duty281 wrote:Yeah, I think Dombrandt is definitely getting there and Tempest has stopped him playing the ball (not deliberately, of course). Would expect a scrum to be given, but fortunately it didn't have an impact on the result.

Thing is you'd get hauled over the coals as a ref of you started to make up laws be it fair or not. Unfortunate event but not much he can do.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Yeah, I think Dombrandt is definitely getting there and Tempest has stopped him playing the ball (not deliberately, of course). Would expect a scrum to be given, but fortunately it didn't have an impact on the result.

Thing is you'd get hauled over the coals as a ref of you started to make up laws be it fair or not. Unfortunate event but not much he can do.

I don't think so. The ref is the ultimate arbiter of the laws on the pitch and the purpose of the laws is to ensure a fair contest. Arguably, taking out a player, affecting the game and letting play continue is preventing a fair contest.

Poorfour wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Yeah, I think Dombrandt is definitely getting there and Tempest has stopped him playing the ball (not deliberately, of course). Would expect a scrum to be given, but fortunately it didn't have an impact on the result.

Thing is you'd get hauled over the coals as a ref of you started to make up laws be it fair or not. Unfortunate event but not much he can do.

I don't think so. The ref is the ultimate arbiter of the laws on the pitch and the purpose of the laws is to ensure a fair contest. Arguably, taking out a player, affecting the game and letting play continue is preventing a fair contest.

Yes there's that get out but what happened is play on in the law book.

We're going....Down down down....

In fact....I don't see where we'll get a win this season....

Geordie wrote:We're going....Down down down....

You can't this year. Small mercies.

There's meant to be a playoff at the end of the season with top of the Championship. It's subject to that club meeting PRLs criteria for the Prem though. Criteria which might just conveniently shift when one of PRLs shareholders are struggling. I'd be pretty surprised if promotion/relegation actually comes back soon. Not least because the RFU have defunded the Championship into oblivion anyway.

It's such a tough job for Alex Codling. Given where English rugby now is and rumours of Seymore Kurdi wanting to cut losses I wouldn't be surprised if Falcons are spending significantly less on players than a lot of ProD2 clubs.

That Armstong red is pretty nasty for Smith.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:We're going....Down down down....

You can't this year. Small mercies.

We can actually...especially if Ealing sort a ground out to rent...or Doncaster win the Champs

They changed it then?I'm aware there can be promotion but it was confirmed in December last year that there would be no relegation.

I haven't seen that...I only saw rhe plans that relegation will happen 23/24 season.

Unless they want it back to 12 teams.

Premiership Rugby to 'relaunch' for 2024-25 after demise of Wasps & Worcester - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63946473

That's from before LI went boom. They were looking to get back to an even number of teams so were considering promotion but no relegation.

At that point rumours were they were hoping Wasps could find a home for this season and play in the Championship rather than restarting at the bottom of the ladder as other clubs who have gone bust had to that went bust before P-shares or weren't P-share holders. Lots of rumours they wanted to BS their own system to get 'the Wasps brand' back into the Prem as soon as possible.

There's now meant to be a two legged promotion/relegation playoff at the end of the season if the Championship winner meets the eligibility criteria. Weekends are even set for the potential match. 31 May-2 June and 7-9 June. Same as the semi and final.

Yes that's what I thought KC....

Oh fair enough then. You're still a country mile ahead of Doncaster so you're not going down.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Oh fair enough then. You're still a country mile ahead of Doncaster so you're not going down.

Depends what Ealing can work out...

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Yeah, I think Dombrandt is definitely getting there and Tempest has stopped him playing the ball (not deliberately, of course). Would expect a scrum to be given, but fortunately it didn't have an impact on the result.

Thing is you'd get hauled over the coals as a ref of you started to make up laws be it fair or not. Unfortunate event but not much he can do.

I don't think so. The ref is the ultimate arbiter of the laws on the pitch and the purpose of the laws is to ensure a fair contest. Arguably, taking out a player, affecting the game and letting play continue is preventing a fair contest.

Yes there's that get out but what happened is play on in the law book.

The get out is that he doesn't interfere with either the ball or the ball carrier. Quins also get the ball back via their big ball carrying 12 with the opportunity for him to carry it in and reset. It's not the ref's fault the centre drops the ball. Had Quins not got possession they might have had more of a case.

Good result by Saints. Exeter kicked very badly and Saints really dominated territory. Young Fin Smith was composed and really led the team well.