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Scotland - 6 Nations Victim Support Group Thread

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Post by George Carlin Wed Jan 24, 2024 4:43 pm

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures for this year's jamboree:

3 February 2024
16:45 GMT
Wales v Scotland
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zealand)

10 February 2024
14:15 GMT
Scotland v France
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Referee: Nic Berry (Australia)

24 February 2024
16:45 GMT
Scotland v England
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Referee: Andrew Brace (Ireland)

9 March 2024
15:15 CET (UTC+1)
Italy v Scotland
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
Referee: Angus Gardner (Australia)

16 March 2024
16:45 WET
Ireland v Scotland
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
Referee: Matthew Carley (England)

Let's get our post-traumatic stress disorder and excuses in early.
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Post by bsando Tue Feb 06, 2024 7:58 pm

Seems like they’ve brought a couple of Glasgow players in as cover to train with the squad. I don’t mind to be honest, now is the time to bring in new faces to the wider squad.

For Sat I would go a slightly different side to you Sapling.

Schoeman, Turner, Fagerson
Skinner, Gilchrist 
Bayliss, Darge
Dempsey 
White, Russell
Tuipulotu, Jones
VDM, Steyn
Rowe

Ashman, Bhatti, Sebastian, Cummings, Fagerson, Price, Healy, Redpath

Bhatti and Sebastian to drop in ahead of Hepburn and MM.

Skinner moved to starting lineup alongside gilchrist with Cummings and Fagerson dropped to bring energy later on.

He hasn’t been mentioned a whole lot but Bayliss for me has untapped potential for Scotland. Yes he’s not had the run of games Christie has had, but I would argue that he has shown more in his short time with Scotland so far. He looks comfortable at international level. 

Price over Horne for a controlled finish to the game with Healy to make his first appearance from the bench.

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Post by jimbopip Tue Feb 06, 2024 9:29 pm

bsando wrote:Seems like they’ve brought a couple of Glasgow players in as cover to train with the squad. I don’t mind to be honest, now is the time to bring in new faces to the wider squad.

For Sat I would go a slightly different side to you Sapling.

Schoeman, Turner, Fagerson
Skinner, Gilchrist 
Bayliss, Darge
Dempsey 
White, Russell
Tuipulotu, Jones
VDM, Steyn
Rowe

Ashman, Bhatti, Sebastian, Cummings, Fagerson, Price, Healy, Redpath

Bhatti and Sebastian to drop in ahead of Hepburn and MM.

Skinner moved to starting lineup alongside gilchrist with Cummings and Fagerson dropped to bring energy later on.

He hasn’t been mentioned a whole lot but Bayliss for me has untapped potential for Scotland. Yes he’s not had the run of games Christie has had, but I would argue that he has shown more in his short time with Scotland so far. He looks comfortable at international level. 

Price over Horne for a controlled finish to the game with Healy to make his first appearance from the bench.

There's so much sense in this post and yet I disagree with so much of it. Headscratch

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Post by bsando Wed Feb 07, 2024 2:43 am

Laugh It’s a great squad, unlike previous years we have genuine competition for spots across the board Jimbo.

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Post by Heuer27 Wed Feb 07, 2024 2:49 am

Toonie will not upset his pack wholesale.
If Turner and Ritchie, our most physical players are dropped who will take it to the French?
Most if not all changes will be injury enforced.
Gilchrist in for Gray and I would imagine Dempsey in for Crosbie at 8 with Fagerson 6 and Ritchie to 7.
If Rowe is out it will be a straight swap i think so probably Healy.
Bench will be filled with quality players coming back Darge, Christie and Skinner covering second and back rows.
Toonie will be looking for as much continuity as possible

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Post by Heuer27 Wed Feb 07, 2024 3:02 am

Don’t misunderstand me though. It’s not the team I would put out but it’s been a while since Toonie spun the Tombola.

I would stick Steyn at fullback and bring in Mcreedy to scare the bejesus out of the French with his pace.

In the forwards I would bring Darge and Christie to play alongside Fagerson

Everything else as is for me .

Bench would be a 6-2
Same front row
Young, Dempsey and Ritchie Healy and Horne back cover. Tough on Redpath but we need cover at ten.

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Post by RDW Wed Feb 07, 2024 3:14 am

Heuer27 wrote:Toonie will not upset his pack wholesale.
If Turner and Ritchie, our most physical players are dropped who will take it to the French?
Most if not all changes will be injury enforced.
Gilchrist in for Gray and I would imagine Dempsey in for Crosbie at 8 with Fagerson 6 and Ritchie to 7.
If Rowe is out it will be a straight swap i think so probably Healy.
Bench will be filled with quality players coming back Darge, Christie and Skinner covering second and back rows.
Toonie will be looking for as much continuity as possible

I reckon it'll be something similar, and tbh I'm happy with that

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Post by George Carlin Wed Feb 07, 2024 5:34 am

You guys are showing a lot of faith in Turner.
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Post by RDW Wed Feb 07, 2024 5:42 am

George Carlin wrote:You guys are showing a lot of faith in Turner.

He's one most physical hooker (ohh er) and tbh other than at the weekend he hasn't had history of bad discipline.

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Post by king_carlos Wed Feb 07, 2024 6:45 am

Turner's largely be fantastic for Scotland in the last two years. I think the credit in the bank is there to keep his shirt. As RDW says, his physicality has added a lot to a Scotland pack that can lack that at times. I often think that Scotland's improved pack performances have been in significant part down to Schoe, Turner and GG adding that physicality in the tight that was missing at times. It allows the mobile back rows to do what they are good at.

Hooker was a problem position before Turner's rise as well. McInally and Brown's best was well past by the end, whilst Cherry was never more than OK. Between Turner and Ashman I'd say hooker is looking better than it has since McInally and Brown were at their peaks a fair while ago now.

Whilst Jonny Matthews try record is fascinating, he is sneakily near enough the same age as Turner as well! So it's not like there's a big investment long term compared to Turner there either.

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Post by tigertattie Wed Feb 07, 2024 7:11 am

Don’t worry guys.

Our injury woes are solved

I’ve been called up as cover

Too tall to be a prop, too heavy to be a second rower, too slow to be a flanker. Therefore Toonie is deploying me on the wing
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Post by Tramptastic Wed Feb 07, 2024 2:33 pm

Changes in the pack:

Gilchrist in for Gray
Ritchie out
Back row of Fagerson, Darge and Dempsey

No changes in the backs

Bench changes:

Andy Christie in

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Post by NeilyBroon Wed Feb 07, 2024 3:09 pm

Tramptastic wrote:Changes in the pack:

Gilchrist in for Gray
Ritchie out
Back row of Fagerson, Darge and Dempsey

No changes in the backs

Bench changes:

Andy Christie in

Happy with these changes, best we could hope for I think. Glad to see Christie on the bench, he really will be an important player for us I think.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Feb 07, 2024 3:28 pm

Beeb: Second row Paul Willemse will miss France's Six Nations matches against Scotland and Italy as a result of his red card in the defeat against Ireland.

He was shown red after a bunker review for a high tackle on Caelan Doris, having earlier been given a yellow for a high hit on Andrew Porter.

A panel found the 31-year-old guilty of two acts of foul play and decided they merited four and three-week bans.

But it deemed it "disproportionate" for the bans to run consecutively.

Six Nations fixtures & BBC coverage details
Willemse has therefore been banned for four weeks, which can be reduced to three if he completes 'tackle school'.

Because the ban covers club and international matches, Montpellier's trip to Racing 92 during the Six Nations' fallow week leaves him free to play Wales on 10 March.

Scotland, who won their Six Nations opener against Wales, host France at Murrayfield on Saturday.



I never really get the rhyme and reason for these lengths. I was figuring it would be quite a long one given the sheer stupidity of it.

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Post by mountain man Wed Feb 07, 2024 3:32 pm

Agree, I'm surprised so short a ban seeing as 2nd yellow was upgraded to red after bunker review.

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Post by Tramptastic Wed Feb 07, 2024 3:41 pm

NeilyBroon wrote:
Tramptastic wrote:Changes in the pack:

Gilchrist in for Gray
Ritchie out
Back row of Fagerson, Darge and Dempsey

No changes in the backs

Bench changes:

Andy Christie in

Happy with these changes, best we could hope for I think. Glad to see Christie on the bench, he really will be an important player for us I think.

Its my preferred backrow right now. If Ritchie had any kind of form and could restrain himself from gobbing at the ref then i'd have Ritchie instead of Darge (purely because im yet to see Darge have an amazing game at int level).

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Post by RDW Wed Feb 07, 2024 4:15 pm

Hope Darge is actually fit!

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Post by EST Wed Feb 07, 2024 4:57 pm

Tramptastic wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:
Tramptastic wrote:Changes in the pack:

Gilchrist in for Gray
Ritchie out
Back row of Fagerson, Darge and Dempsey

No changes in the backs

Bench changes:

Andy Christie in

Happy with these changes, best we could hope for I think. Glad to see Christie on the bench, he really will be an important player for us I think.

Its my preferred backrow right now. If Ritchie had any kind of form and could restrain himself from gobbing at the ref then i'd have Ritchie instead of Darge (purely because im yet to see Darge have an amazing game at int level).

I think Ritchie was incredibly lucky to start last week, it was purely on reputation alone and not backed up by any sort of form. I'm happy they have mixed things up, the BR picked offers good balance.

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Post by Tramptastic Wed Feb 07, 2024 5:40 pm

There's nowt wrong with picking on reputation if the player has credit in the bank - see Ma'a Nonu for a decade had minimal form at club level but ALWAYS played well for the all blacks.

Toonie was right with his approach, Ritchie failed to meet the minimum requirements let alone the top class form he's capable of.

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Post by jimbopip Wed Feb 07, 2024 7:21 pm

So, a settled side with two changes forced by injury and one change in response to Mbawza's rash behaviour.

Last season's match between these teams was a full 15 round toe to toe knock down heavyweight contest. France just edged it.
This time round France will deffo besans ; Dupont, Ntamack and Willemse. I believe Moefana and Taofifenua. Basically, the France team will be slightly weaker while ours should be at least the same as it was. The main changes in our side would seem to be Seaman for ADHD Kid and Rowe for Blarehorn.

One thing's for sure....Scotland won't be complacent going into, or even during, this match. In fact, it's more probable that France are 27 points up after 20 minutes than that we are comfortably ahead at any point in the game.
Can France demolish us and walk off with a collective Gallic shrug? Easily.
Can our 6 Weegie pack fight them to a standstill and allow Dancer to open them up in the backs? We surely can.

I'm glad Rowe says at 15. I was concerned that Healey lacks his pace to make cover tackles when Fickou and Penaud punch holes in our defence, also any less than pinpoint kicks will invite lightning fast counter attacks. Rowe, while he has a long boot on him, looks more likely to run the ball back and as long as he isn't turned over then that's fine by me.

If we win this are we Dark Horse yet?


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Post by bsando Wed Feb 07, 2024 7:21 pm

Still no Bhatti? Find that quite strange.

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Post by NeilyBroon Wed Feb 07, 2024 7:31 pm

jimbopip wrote:So, a settled side with two changes forced by injury and one change in response to Mbawza's rash behaviour.

Last season's match between these teams was a full 15 round toe to toe knock down heavyweight contest. France just edged it.
This time round France will deffo besans ; Dupont, Ntamack and Willemse. I believe Moefana and Taofifenua. Basically, the France team will be slightly weaker while ours should be at least the same as it was. The main changes in our side would seem to be Seaman for ADHD Kid and Rowe for Blarehorn.

One thing's for sure....Scotland won't be complacent going into, or even during, this match. In fact, it's more probable that France are 27 points up after 20 minutes than that we are comfortably ahead at any point in the game.
Can France demolish us and walk off with a collective Gallic shrug? Easily.
Can our 6 Weegie pack fight them to a standstill and allow Dancer to open them up in the backs? We surely can.

I'm glad Rowe says at 15. I was concerned that Healey lacks his pace to make cover tackles when Fickou and Penaud punch holes in our defence, also any less than pinpoint kicks will invite lightning fast counter attacks. Rowe, while he has a long boot on him, looks more likely to run the ball back and as long as he isn't turned over then that's fine by me.

If we win this are we Dark Horse yet?


We've never stopped being dark horses. From a summer tour to Georgia, to the 6 nations, to a world cup. We're always the dark horse, but in the unusual case of Scotland we could be a dark horse for winning or losing.

"Oh I see we're playing New Zealand this autumn, I'd say we're a fair shot for winning"

"Oh we're facing Tonga next week? I'd say we've got an outside chance of losing"

Neither could be true or both true simultaneously. Put Frances predictability into the equation and you have to have a PhD in chaos theory to be able to predict an outcome.

In summary we might capitulate against France then beat Ireland in Ireland but still come 4th.

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Post by jimbopip Wed Feb 07, 2024 7:36 pm

NeilyBroon wrote:
jimbopip wrote:So, a settled side with two changes forced by injury and one change in response to Mbawza's rash behaviour.

Last season's match between these teams was a full 15 round toe to toe knock down heavyweight contest. France just edged it.
This time round France will deffo besans ; Dupont, Ntamack and Willemse. I believe Moefana and Taofifenua. Basically, the France team will be slightly weaker while ours should be at least the same as it was. The main changes in our side would seem to be Seaman for ADHD Kid and Rowe for Blarehorn.

One thing's for sure....Scotland won't be complacent going into, or even during, this match. In fact, it's more probable that France are 27 points up after 20 minutes than that we are comfortably ahead at any point in the game.
Can France demolish us and walk off with a collective Gallic shrug? Easily.
Can our 6 Weegie pack fight them to a standstill and allow Dancer to open them up in the backs? We surely can.

I'm glad Rowe says at 15. I was concerned that Healey lacks his pace to make cover tackles when Fickou and Penaud punch holes in our defence, also any less than pinpoint kicks will invite lightning fast counter attacks. Rowe, while he has a long boot on him, looks more likely to run the ball back and as long as he isn't turned over then that's fine by me.

If we win this are we Dark Horse yet?


We've never stopped being dark horses. From a summer tour to Georgia, to the 6 nations, to a world cup. We're always the dark horse, but in the unusual case of Scotland we could be a dark horse for winning or losing.

"Oh I see we're playing New Zealand this autumn, I'd say we're a fair shot for winning"

"Oh we're facing Tonga next week? I'd say we've got an outside chance of losing"

Neither could be true or both true simultaneously. Put Frances predictability into the equation and you have to have a PhD in chaos theory to be able to predict an outcome.

In summary we might capitulate against France then beat Ireland in Ireland but still come 4th.

Sounds just the match for Schrodinger's Prop to come on and win the game. Or lose it.

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Post by NeilyBroon Wed Feb 07, 2024 7:39 pm

jimbopip wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:
jimbopip wrote:So, a settled side with two changes forced by injury and one change in response to Mbawza's rash behaviour.

Last season's match between these teams was a full 15 round toe to toe knock down heavyweight contest. France just edged it.
This time round France will deffo besans ; Dupont, Ntamack and Willemse. I believe Moefana and Taofifenua. Basically, the France team will be slightly weaker while ours should be at least the same as it was. The main changes in our side would seem to be Seaman for ADHD Kid and Rowe for Blarehorn.

One thing's for sure....Scotland won't be complacent going into, or even during, this match. In fact, it's more probable that France are 27 points up after 20 minutes than that we are comfortably ahead at any point in the game.
Can France demolish us and walk off with a collective Gallic shrug? Easily.
Can our 6 Weegie pack fight them to a standstill and allow Dancer to open them up in the backs? We surely can.

I'm glad Rowe says at 15. I was concerned that Healey lacks his pace to make cover tackles when Fickou and Penaud punch holes in our defence, also any less than pinpoint kicks will invite lightning fast counter attacks. Rowe, while he has a long boot on him, looks more likely to run the ball back and as long as he isn't turned over then that's fine by me.

If we win this are we Dark Horse yet?


We've never stopped being dark horses. From a summer tour to Georgia, to the 6 nations, to a world cup. We're always the dark horse, but in the unusual case of Scotland we could be a dark horse for winning or losing.

"Oh I see we're playing New Zealand this autumn, I'd say we're a fair shot for winning"

"Oh we're facing Tonga next week? I'd say we've got an outside chance of losing"

Neither could be true or both true simultaneously. Put Frances predictability into the equation and you have to have a PhD in chaos theory to be able to predict an outcome.

In summary we might capitulate against France then beat Ireland in Ireland but still come 4th.

Sounds just the match for Schrodinger's Prop to come on and win the game. Or lose it.

Or both. Haven't had a draw in a while!

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Post by jimbopip Wed Feb 07, 2024 7:43 pm

a draw would not be a good result. Against France? Bien sur, a draw would be a good result.

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Post by bsando Wed Feb 07, 2024 8:46 pm

jimbopip wrote:a draw would not be a good result. Against France? Bien sur, a draw would be a good result.
Bah oui

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Post by NeilyBroon Wed Feb 07, 2024 9:20 pm

bsando wrote:
jimbopip wrote:a draw would not be a good result. Against France? Bien sur, a draw would be a good result.
Bah oui

Mais quelle a la date de ton anniversaire?

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Post by EST Thu Feb 08, 2024 12:39 am

Tramptastic wrote:There's nowt wrong with picking on reputation if the player has credit in the bank - see Ma'a Nonu for a decade had minimal form at club level but ALWAYS played well for the all blacks.

Toonie was right with his approach, Ritchie failed to meet the minimum requirements let alone the top class form he's capable of.

With respect to Ritchie, if he was as good as Nonu I wouldn't drop him either!

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Post by BigGee Sat Feb 10, 2024 11:52 pm

Whatever we feel about the result and I will beleive that was a try till my dying day!

The young lad Harry Patterson deserves some kudos for a very impressive debut. He hardly put a foot wrong all game.

One of the few positives from the game.

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Post by NeilyBroon Sun Feb 11, 2024 12:05 am

BigGee wrote:Whatever we feel about the result and I will beleive that was a try till my dying day!

The young lad Harry Patterson deserves some kudos for a very impressive debut. He hardly put a foot wrong all game.

One of the few positives from the game.

Definitely. Bright future for him, hopefully he'll get more opportunities now with Edinburgh too.

That second half was frustrating in a different way to last week. As usual with Scottish rugby we swing between too conservative and too mental. Felt like we were very much devoid of all ideas and just playing through the same script again and again. We should have been turning the screw but instead sat back and France eventually decided to take advantage.

We shouldn't have been in the position to have to get a try to win by a point. We should have taken the points at the end of the first half, I know they had a yellow but in a game like that any points are vital, so if you can take an easy 3, you do.

As always sat here reflecting on whether this is the slow death of Scottish rugby where our highest height is middling. Given our player base and player pathways I think this might be as good as it gets now.

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Post by Mcsweens Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:35 am

I have just had a sirloin steak, 3 brewdogs, and 3 tunnocks teacakes.

If I could be permitted to philosophise and speculate for just a moment - we came a cropper today from rugby's biggest characteristic and clearest flaw. At every passage of play there are always multiple reasons to ping either team. The decisions that are given are shaped by referees and officials far far too much,  - it's the nature of the game - and subconscious bias will always play a part.

Berry otherwise reffed very favourably to Scotland, however he bottled it at the end, and MacNeice helped him, both allowing the other enough reason to wriggle out of things. They didnt like having to effectively decide a game themselves, and just didn't fancy making the French unhappy more than the Scots. (actually I don't know what went down - I left the room as soon as Berry referred it).

Rugby is, fundamentally, a game where successful teams get away with it. I remember games against Samoa (at Pittodrie), and Canada, where Scotland should have lost but for last minute calls in our favour. This is the reason why rugby will remain a minority sport, too, by the way, because building credibility and authority in the eyes of the game is a inter-generational activity.

The best we can hope for is that Scotland pull some moves behind the scenes and end MacNeices career, whilst the team win in Rome and against England, doing so by taking the ref out of the equation.

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Post by RDW Sun Feb 11, 2024 4:26 am

Sounds like a pretty poor game with late controversy at the end. Scotland doing more than enough to win it but not taking chances - that has to be the lesson here.

Saying that the no try decision at the end is a huge frustration. I said before you need some luck to have a chance at winning the tournament and we maybe used all our up last week.

It's quite unlikely to happen, but can you imagine the scenario come March that we would have won the tournament if that try was given...!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:11 am

RDW wrote:Sounds like a pretty poor game with late controversy at the end. Scotland doing more than enough to win it but not taking chances - that has to be the lesson here.

Saying that the no try decision at the end is a huge frustration. I said before you need some luck to have a chance at winning the tournament and we maybe used all our up last week.

It's quite unlikely to happen, but can you imagine the scenario come March that we would have won the tournament if that try was given...!

You could point to the high offside tackle in the first half as a bit of luck?

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Post by RDW Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:28 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
RDW wrote:Sounds like a pretty poor game with late controversy at the end. Scotland doing more than enough to win it but not taking chances - that has to be the lesson here.

Saying that the no try decision at the end is a huge frustration. I said before you need some luck to have a chance at winning the tournament and we maybe used all our up last week.

It's quite unlikely to happen, but can you imagine the scenario come March that we would have won the tournament if that try was given...!

You could point to the high offside tackle in the first half as a bit of luck?

I'm not gonna play decision by decision ping pong, and it's already been mentioned that when you lose after some controversial decisions it looks like sour grapes to then complain about them and opposition fans jump all over that.

But I don't think any rugby fan could reasonably justify what happens with the TMO at the end. Even the French fans are saying it should have been a try! I'm on an Aussie rugby forum and they're all saying it should have been a try. The ref is never going to get all the hundreds of mini decisions right but they've got to get the big ones right. I wouldn't be surprise if the governing body issue a clarifying that it should have been a try.

FWIW on the Duhan one it did look like he got him on the shoulder (as Berry said) then it would take someone who knows the rules better than I do to tell if it was offside or not. For me it wasn't a ruck so no offside line (a ruck needs a player from each side on their feet, which there wasn't), but the doubt my mind was whether Duhan should have retreated to the back foot given he was tackler (but again, there was no ruck...).

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Post by bsando Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:42 am

Just caught the full match replay. That one was a gut wrencher. I think we've hit new levels of despair as Scotland fans. Usually the ref says it's held up, knocked on etc and we lose, today they said it was held up (groan), then a try (YASSSS), then nahh actually yeah it's held up mad steam broken

I think Nic Berry had a really good game as ref. Scotland got their tactics completely wrong in that second half. We had France on the ropes, they were truly awful, woeful I thought. Any time we had a go at them in the first half they were under pressure. For some reason we gave them a reprieve in the second half by trying to see out a 6 point margin with thirty minute to go.. wtf?! Losing the way we did was totally deserved.

Funny how when Scotland realised they had to play they made easy ground and nearly scored a try via Rowe and at the death. So why did Scotland divert so drastically from the good work they did in the first half? That for me was the real sickner, not the possible try at the end.


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Post by RDW Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:15 am

Agree with Bsando - that was a real opportunity lost. France were poor and miles off the France that we've seen in recent years. They had a terrible lineout, disjointed attack, lack of intensity, yet we lost. We should never have been relying on a hail Mary try at the end to win.

The controversy call was clearly wrong.  The TMO was crapping himself trying to make the call and didn't sound convinced at all.  We can rightly feel aggrieved.

But saying all that I hope this doesn't detract from our failings earlier in the game. We didn't take the chances we had, and were far too risky averse with 20 minutes to go. The period before the end of the first half was particularly bad to not come away with points. We will never be contenders if we can't win these types of games.

It's tough being a Scottish rugby fan eh!

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Post by doctor_grey Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:39 am

It did seem to me and the people I was watching with that the ball was grounded.  On the other hand, once the referee said the call on the field was no try, I doubted it would be overturned.  A real shame because there were a few other chances to turn them over.    Just too close.

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Post by bsando Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:26 pm

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/the-five-moments-that-cost-scotland-dearly-against-france/

Tough read but good points made. They did forget to mention the 50m drop goal attempt   picard

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Post by RDW Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:43 pm

bsando wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/the-five-moments-that-cost-scotland-dearly-against-france/

Tough read but good points made. They did forget to mention the 50m drop goal attempt   picard

Good article. I did think we could have been a bit more cool headed in those dying minutes on their line. I.e. instead of Skinner going for a 50% take a few more phases and wait for an 80%+ opportunity particularly as they would be very narrow in defence, potentially opening up wide. Get a big prop belly flopping from 10cm out, Duhan muscling over or waiting for an overlap out wide.

Championship moments that we all took often fail at!

Acknowledging that we still should have had that try anyway...

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Post by mountain man Sun Feb 11, 2024 3:22 pm

Try/no try aside, that was a terrible game of rugby though. That farcial kick tennis by both teams was appalling.
Surely a law change need to stop that.

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Post by NeilyBroon Sun Feb 11, 2024 4:57 pm

I feel a great deal of discomfort criticising the referees. Respect for them is what separates rugby from the round ball game. I think Berry put himself into a corner with his question. If I was the video ref I'd be saying it was inconclusive because of all the boots in the way in response to that question. If he'd asked, was it grounded yes or no? Then I'd be more inclined to say it was.

Like Australia in 2015 though we should have won that game but made it hard for ourselves. Against Australia we fluffed the lineout and although it was ultimately the wrong decision by Joubert, we should have finished that game.

Yesterday we should have taken opportunities, kept ball in hand more. The first half we had the kicking game on point. Second half I have no idea what was going on but ultimately we put ourselves in a position where we were relying on a refereeing decision. If we'd shown more patience in the build up to the disallowed try and more impetus earlier in the half, we would probably be 2 from 2.

Oh well. Onwards and upwards. I think we should target the triple crown as we won't be winning the title... Only the small matter of beating Ireland... England could go either way... Maybe just avoiding the wooden spoon...

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Post by TJ Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:21 pm

mountain man wrote:Try/no try aside, that was a terrible game of rugby though. That farcial kick tennis by both teams was appalling.
Surely a law change need to stop that.

I thought it was funny. Finn did the stand still thing and Ramos clicked what he was doing - stalemate untill you start sending runners up again to put everyone onside. I thought Finn controlled the kicking game really well against real world class

I thought it a good game - we just needed to put away more of the chances we created.

Discipline was good

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Post by Heaf Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:45 pm

RDW wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
RDW wrote:Sounds like a pretty poor game with late controversy at the end. Scotland doing more than enough to win it but not taking chances - that has to be the lesson here.

Saying that the no try decision at the end is a huge frustration. I said before you need some luck to have a chance at winning the tournament and we maybe used all our up last week.

It's quite unlikely to happen, but can you imagine the scenario come March that we would have won the tournament if that try was given...!

You could point to the high offside tackle in the first half as a bit of luck?

I'm not gonna play decision by decision ping pong,  and it's already been mentioned that when you lose after some controversial decisions it looks like sour grapes to then complain about them and opposition fans jump all over that.

But I don't think any rugby fan could reasonably justify what happens with the TMO at the end. Even the French fans are saying it should have been a try! I'm on an Aussie rugby forum and they're all saying it should have been a try. The ref is never going to get all the hundreds of mini decisions right but they've got to get the big ones right. I wouldn't be surprise if the governing body issue a clarifying that it should have been a try.

FWIW on the Duhan one it did look like he got him on the shoulder (as Berry said) then it would take someone who knows the rules better than I do to tell if it was offside or not. For me it wasn't a ruck so no offside line a ruck needs a player from each side on their feet, which there wasn't), but the doubt my mind was whether Duhan should have retreated to the back foot given he was tackler (but again, there was no ruck...).

Doesn't need to be a ruck - Offside lines are created at a tackle when at least one player is on their feet and over the ball, which is on the ground.  I thought it was a try at the end too by the way - the problem was the ref saying held-up originally made it a whole lot harder for the TMO to give.

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Post by bsando Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:33 pm

According to the rule book the referee has the definitive say on what decision is made at the time of review.

The referee remains the lead decision-maker of the refereeing team. The intention of
the protocol is to provide the referee, their assistant referees and the TMO (commonly
referred to as the Team of 4) with a technology-based solution to collectively make
better and more accurate decisions.


It is intended that the referee should aim to lead the TMO referral process by creating
an environment within which the Team of 4 (TO4) are able to provide them with the
applicable facts of the referral. The referee will then collate all the information and
lead the decision-making process.


https://resources.world.rugby/worldrugby/document/2022/06/17/d96beea2-759d-4856-b8db-f4aa13d5cc75/2022-TMO-protocol-Approved-by-Council-May-2022-v2.pdf

Nic Berry
Without blaming Nic Berry for the decision yesterday I think the dialogue between the officials is interesting in light of the laws. Nic Berry ultimately has the final say, yet he very much relies on the TMO's decision. The TMO seems quite flustered that he has to make that call and ultimately he does. Nic Berry does not appear to contribute his own opinion during the TMO referral.

The TMO
As the TMO says the ball is grounded and replays the video for Nic Berry to make his final decision he is met by a long silence from Nic Berry. That then forces the TMO to continue scrutinising the video. This is the key moment in the TMO process for me and where the TMO becomes noticeably flustered.

The Dialogue between Nic Berry and the TMO

TMO - "Yeah, Nic, just rock and roll that please for me."

Images ball replay.

TMO - "Nic." Pause

Nic Berry - "Yeah?"

TMO - "I've just got to let this one play through, right.. the ball is held up for now.. but there is the ball on the ground. I'm just, I'm just going to rock and roll that for you just stand by."

Long pause as images replay on screen for Nic Berry.

Nic Berry - "Okay Brian, so.."

TMO - "Yep go ahead Nic."

Nic Berry - "[b]So you're saying that the ball is initially on the foot. And then he's gone and grounded it in goal so I need to change my on field decision to a try."

TMO - "Yep, Nic I just, I just need definitive evidence [Nic Berry mouths "okay"] of the ball on the ground. So.. I-I-I need to go back out to that angle just to see, can I clearly see the ball on the ground."

Nic Berry - "Thank you"

Pause

Nic Berry - "[to unidentified player/official] "okay he's checking it".

Pause as they replay images

TMO - "So I can see it's on the foot here at the moment Nic."

Nic Berry - "yes"

TMO - "Just rock and roll that once more please"

Pause as they continue to replay same video angle

TMO - "I cannot say for certain. I don't have clear enough ball on ground Nic."

Nic Berry - "Okay. So I need to.. Because you don't have conclusive evidence I need to stick with my on field decision, is that right?"

TMO - "Yes"

Nic Berry - "Okay.." [Decision has been made, Nic Berry moves towards players]

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Post by jimbopip Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:47 pm

bsando wrote:According to the rule book the referee has the definitive say on what decision is made at the time of review.

The referee remains the lead decision-maker of the refereeing team. The intention of
the protocol is to provide the referee, their assistant referees and the TMO (commonly
referred to as the Team of 4) with a technology-based solution to collectively make
better and more accurate decisions.


It is intended that the referee should aim to lead the TMO referral process by creating
an environment within which the Team of 4 (TO4) are able to provide them with the
applicable facts of the referral. The referee will then collate all the information and
lead the decision-making process.


https://resources.world.rugby/worldrugby/document/2022/06/17/d96beea2-759d-4856-b8db-f4aa13d5cc75/2022-TMO-protocol-Approved-by-Council-May-2022-v2.pdf

Nic Berry
Without blaming Nic Berry for the decision yesterday I think the dialogue between the officials is interesting in light of the laws. Nic Berry ultimately has the final say, yet he very much relies on the TMO's decision. The TMO seems quite flustered that he has to make that call and ultimately he does. Nic Berry does not appear to contribute his own opinion during the TMO referral.

The TMO
As the TMO says the ball is grounded and replays the video for Nic Berry to make his final decision he is met by a long silence from Nic Berry. That then forces the TMO to continue scrutinising the video. This is the key moment in the TMO process for me and where the TMO becomes noticeably flustered.

The Dialogue between Nic Berry and the TMO

TMO - "Yeah, Nic, just rock and roll that please for me."

Images ball replay.

TMO - "Nic." Pause

Nic Berry - "Yeah?"

TMO - "I've just got to let this one play through, right.. the ball is held up for now.. but there is the ball on the ground. I'm just, I'm just going to rock and roll that for you just stand by."

Long pause as images replay on screen for Nic Berry.

Nic Berry - "Okay Brian, so.."

TMO - "Yep go ahead Nic."

Nic Berry - "[b]So you're saying that the ball is initially on the foot. And then he's gone and grounded it in goal so I need to change my on field decision to a try."

TMO - "Yep, Nic I just, I just need definitive evidence [Nic Berry mouths "okay"] of the ball on the ground. So.. I-I-I need to go back out to that angle just to see, can I clearly see the ball on the ground."

Nic Berry - "Thank you"

Pause

Nic Berry - "[to unidentified player/official] "okay he's checking it".

Pause as they replay images

TMO - "So I can see it's on the foot here at the moment Nic."

Nic Berry - "yes"

TMO - "Just rock and roll that once more please"

Pause as they continue to replay same video angle

TMO - "I cannot say for certain. I don't have clear enough ball on ground Nic."

Nic Berry - "Okay. So I need to.. Because you don't have conclusive evidence I need to stick with my on field decision, is that right?"

TMO - "Yes"

Nic Berry - "Okay.." [Decision has been made, Nic Berry moves towards players]

picard picard picard vomit vomit vomit steam steam steam steam steam steam

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Post by jimbopip Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:48 pm

that really is as coherent a response as I can muster.

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Post by RDW Mon Feb 12, 2024 4:33 am

Listened to the Scottish rugby podcast from straight after the game. Tom English, Peter Wright and Fraser Brown aren't exactly renowned as being the happy bunch but they were particularly scathing of both the TMO shambles but also Scotland for being in that situation in the first place. They rightly say that the French performance was not good, they were not coming to play and we had more than enough possession and opportunity to win. France will be amazed they managed to win that.

They make a good point about the lack of subs, which seems a mistake from Toonie. The French were knackered but so were we - why leave Horne on the bench? He's an expert at reading breaks and being on shoulders, or indeed making a break himself. Similarly Redpath came on very late, Healy not used at all (again).

A better bench could have upped the tempo and got is over the line much, much earlier.

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Post by NeilyBroon Mon Feb 12, 2024 1:35 pm

RDW wrote:Listened to the Scottish rugby podcast from straight after the game. Tom English, Peter Wright and Fraser Brown aren't exactly renowned as being the happy bunch but they were particularly scathing of both the TMO shambles but also Scotland for being in that situation in the first place. They rightly say that the French performance was not good, they were not coming to play and we had more than enough possession and opportunity to win. France will be amazed they managed to win that.

They make a good point about the lack of subs, which seems a mistake from Toonie. The French were knackered but so were we - why leave Horne on the bench? He's an expert at reading breaks and being on shoulders, or indeed making a break himself. Similarly Redpath came on very late, Healy not used at all (again).

A better bench could have upped the tempo and got is over the line much, much earlier.

I think we could have done with the bench at 50 minutes again. I don't understand what it is with Toonie and not using his full squad. Why pick 23 when in reality you only use 20 for any significant period? If that's our strategy, go with a 6:2 split, or Christ even 7:1!

Anyway we could pull hairs over this all year. I guess it seems to be a recurring theme with Toonie. I just don't think he's cut out to take the team to silverware. By the time he's gone it'll be too late for us to attempt for anything as our best players will be past it or retired.

Anyway as I said before, I think that puts us pretty much out of the title race, the only hope for any team is to go for a GS this year, as Ireland are just pasting every team so far.

Beat England and we make Dublin a more interesting prospect. Lose to England then we're looking at 4th. Looking at Italy we could very much lose to them too but should be able to squeak past with a BP if we just keep our heads.

Honestly I know we say this every year but this really was our best chance. We could feasibly grind out wins, none of the opposition looks particularly settled, and go for a hail Mary at Dublin.. instead we're in the same old position despite having a very settled squad.

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Post by EST Mon Feb 12, 2024 2:48 pm

NeilyBroon wrote:
RDW wrote:Listened to the Scottish rugby podcast from straight after the game. Tom English, Peter Wright and Fraser Brown aren't exactly renowned as being the happy bunch but they were particularly scathing of both the TMO shambles but also Scotland for being in that situation in the first place. They rightly say that the French performance was not good, they were not coming to play and we had more than enough possession and opportunity to win. France will be amazed they managed to win that.

They make a good point about the lack of subs, which seems a mistake from Toonie. The French were knackered but so were we - why leave Horne on the bench? He's an expert at reading breaks and being on shoulders, or indeed making a break himself. Similarly Redpath came on very late, Healy not used at all (again).

A better bench could have upped the tempo and got is over the line much, much earlier.

I think we could have done with the bench at 50 minutes again. I don't understand what it is with Toonie and not using his full squad. Why pick 23 when in reality you only use 20 for any significant period? If that's our strategy, go with a 6:2 split, or Christ even 7:1!

Anyway we could pull hairs over this all year. I guess it seems to be a recurring theme with Toonie. I just don't think he's cut out to take the team to silverware. By the time he's gone it'll be too late for us to attempt for anything as our best players will be past it or retired.

Anyway as I said before, I think that puts us pretty much out of the title race, the only hope for any team is to go for a GS this year, as Ireland are just pasting every team so far.

Beat England and we make Dublin a more interesting prospect. Lose to England then we're looking at 4th. Looking at Italy we could very much lose to them too but should be able to squeak past with a BP if we just keep our heads.

Honestly I know we say this every year but this really was our best chance. We could feasibly grind out wins, none of the opposition looks particularly settled, and go for a hail Mary at Dublin.. instead we're in the same old position despite having a very settled squad.

Don't think we would ever beat this Ireland team away from home the way they are playing, but a great chance to go to the last round in with a shout. Here we are. Again. That France team were absolutely woeful on the day and completely there for the taking. The fact we did actually win, only makes it worse.

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Post by bsando Mon Feb 12, 2024 7:54 pm

The idea to kick and hope for a French mistake was incredibly flawed.
That shouldn’t have become the distraction it ended up being. Ramos is one of the best in the world at fullback. It was feeding straight into their strengths to keep booting it to him and it ultimately led to the match winner after Scotland made a mistake.

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Post by BigGee Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:03 pm

bsando wrote:The idea to kick and hope for a French mistake was incredibly flawed.
That shouldn’t have become the distraction it ended up being. Ramos is one of the best in the world at fullback. It was feeding straight into their strengths to keep booting it to him and it ultimately led to the match winner after Scotland made a mistake.

They had 4 in the backfield during those kicking rallies. It was not jyst a question of kicking it to Ramos. He was covering the line and it was decreasing his angles.

When one side starts playing like that ( France), it is very hard to break out of it. It is a massive risk trying to run it out of youf own half.

Dupont's law does need looking at!

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