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Post Scotland v Wales: Scotland consolidation thread

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Post by George Carlin Sun 10 Mar 2013, 7:46 am

Well, I didn't see the game last night but it sounds like it was ruined as a spectacle from the outset by Liza Minelli Joubert.

Where are we now as a team? What do we know? Does our current placing reflect accurately where we are as a squad?

It seems to me (admittedly, not having seen the game, so I'll need your help) that:

1. The lack of time together with the squad and management has told? We didn't have much time with SJ and DR and it has ultimately showed. A 'back to basics' approach was necessary for us but also expedient as we didn't have the opportunity to consider more complex structures. I think what I'm saying is that you cannot blame the coaches for this. The core of the Welsh team have been together for years and that cohesiveness, especially in defense, seems to show when it counts.

2. Our set piece is good, provided that horrendous refeering does not do us a disservice.

3. However, just because we are solid defensively, adopting what is clearly a pre-ascertained strategy of not playing in our own half puts a lot of pressure on us defensively. Ironically, it does not play to our current strengths, which is giving our back three a chance with ball in hand.

4. We are missing Rennie and Barclay desperately. I don't think that it's sustainable to play Harley instead of Barclay or Fusaro in the next match. We need a fetcher.

5. I think that the value of Scott Johnson as a coach will diminish considerably if the SRU cannot persuade Dean Ryan to stay on. All good coaching set-ups are team affairs (Henry and Wayne, Mallett and Meehan, Dingo Deans and his sock puppet).

6. Unless we beat France, I am minded not to try and describe this campaign as a success. Mathematically we cannot finish bottom but with this group of players, I actually expected better.

What are your thoughts about where we are now?
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Post by majesticimperialman Sun 10 Mar 2013, 8:03 am

George. You did not really miss any thing to be honest. I t was not really a game of rugby. It was more a kicking contest with Wales coming out on top.

Apart from Hibbard scoring the only try in the game. Most of it was penalty kicks at goal for both goal kickers.

Scotland looked more like a team that was afraid to play ball in hand, take it too Wales, so they kicked the ball a way most of the time.

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Post by LondonTiger Sun 10 Mar 2013, 8:29 am

George,

The ref was poor, but the players were no better on the day.

As for Scotland the problem areas were:

Scrum
They were unable to come to terms with the interminable and random delay Joubert had between touch and set. The got on the wrong side of him early on being pinged at 3 of the first 4 scrums for early engagement. After the first two these offences were upgraded to full penalty. They were so scared of being done for early engage that they started to allow Wales to shove early (and at times engage early). I reckon that with another ref your guys woul dhave gained parity here, but that is a personaly opinion and speculation.

Breakdown
It wasn't so much a fetcher that was missing, but rather people to clear out. Scotland did well defensively, but in attack the ball carrier was left alone for far too long. At times there seemed a real lack of energy in the forwards here.

Midfield
Weir, Scott and Lamont offered very little. In fact I am not sure if I heard Scott mentioned once.

Dumb Penalties
Far too many of these given away.

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Post by nobbled Sun 10 Mar 2013, 8:43 am

Wale had a dominant scrum but were aided (unnecessarily) by Joubert only acknowledging the Scots going early - first scrum Scots engaged early twice, got penalised, immediately followed by the Welsh doing the same and not penalised.
Both defences were impressive, however the rush defence from Wales meant them living off-side a lot of the game. If Joubert had a threatened a card for the offence earlier in the game we might have had a half decent spectacle - as it was Wales were always able to slow what little Scottish ball there was (through some great play as well as the off-sides).
Instead we ended up with a game with the highest penalty count in modern history - but no one carded for repeated infringement.
Can't blame the teams for the reffing, but the number of needless penalties was shocking.
Both sides played with real commitment and the conditions were awful too, meaning the ball was often a liability rather than an opportunity for the attacking team.
Halfpenny missed a few in the first half, but then the Scots did the same in the second half. Think the wind was a factor.
Both fullbacks were fully focussed - was probably the most interesting battle.
Well done Wales - a good win in poor conditions, terrible to watch, but an ugly win is a win!
Hard luck Scotland, but not the better team on the day, and still made it hard for Wales.
Thought
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Post by Glas a du Sun 10 Mar 2013, 8:54 am

I'd be miffed at Joubert if I was you as well.
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Post by doctornickolas Sun 10 Mar 2013, 9:09 am

Scotland went early very clearly on loads of occassions which was just dumb. You can blame the ref if you like but what is he supposed to do when a side does the same thing over and over. Wales shoved Scotland back in the early scrums and Scotland knew they had to go early to have any chance but they couldn't get it right. Not the refs fault.

Wales gave away loads of stupid penalties but they were lucky that Scotland were determined to beat Wales at something and so gave away even more stupid ones. Again you can't blame the ref when Scotland come around the wrong side at a ruck as they got pinged for at least twice.

I felt Scotland should have had at least one yellow given the number of penalties they gave away in their 22. Paul James got a yellow for it so why didn't a Scotland player.

I just don't think Scotland are as good as you guys think they are. If Scotland win a game then realism goes out the window. After losing to Tonga in the Autumn, Scotland got pasted by England, won their annual wooden spoon challenge against Italy and then somehow (and no one still knows how) beat an Ireland side that should have been out of sight by half time.

On the back of that I have seen Lions squads posted with 12 Scots in it awhich is crazy. I don't think there are many Scots who would get in Wales, England or Irelands first 15 to be honest.

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Post by thebluesmancometh Sun 10 Mar 2013, 9:31 am

Sorry to be the welshman seemingly coming on to gloat or rile but I have to disagree with some of your points George...

1. England were in exactly the same position last year, new coach, players and limited gameplan. A back to basics approach was adopted by them and was pretty effective, SJ has done exactly the same thing with a degree of success, allbeit not the same degree as England.

2. Joubert was a nightmare, for both teams, but when we actually saw any scrummaging it was clear Wales had Scotland on toast. The early engagements can't really be argued with (Wales didn't go early and managed to play Jouberts stupid interperetation) but for the few pens/freekicks you gave away I think you got 9 points in return from a scrum who was clearly superior. Thats a positive for Joubert in my book from a Scot POV.
Lineout again was looking very very difficult to beat, esp on our throw, but the injury to Grey seemed to stem the flow!

3. Playing that kinda safe game has worked for many teams in recent years, NZ and SA not to mention Wales GS's. It's how you kick and cope with the return thats important, and I though firt hour or so it was working perfectly!!!

4. Aye you need an openside back (although I think Brown is playing extremely well, and very good captain, he'd be on my plane to Oz right now)

5. Scott was always a bad appointment IMHO, he is so sleazy, annoying and damn right unlikeable, not to mention he loves to live off other people acheivements! Ryan is key as you say!

6. France are extremely beatable, but you have them last up and may just have to deal with a backlash kind of performance. Although the type of gameplan youve played so far will be key, surpress and frustrate the French, keep them in their own half and make them play out, live off the mistakes. Laidlaw should win any kicking battle and with Hogg's and Wiers ever developing kicking game you could really put them in trouble.

Ultimately though I do feel a bit bad, I mentioned on the thread that Joubert looked like he had taken a disliking to Scotland early on, and Wales probably got the slight rub of the green (except he tried his best to even things out), Scotland were a very tough game for once (no offence) and the threat of a score was there until late.

'Joubert ruined a perfectly good game of rugby Scotland had no intention of allowing anyone to play'

^^^ I think that says it all.

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Post by George Carlin Sun 10 Mar 2013, 9:37 am

Can I just add at this point that I have already reported one of the posts above to the mods.

Let's keep it nice and constructive please. I cannot be bothered with crowing or wumming, so if you'd like to pull people's plonkers, please can anyone so inclined do it somewhere else.

Many thanks. OK
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Post by thebluesmancometh Sun 10 Mar 2013, 9:44 am

I sincerely hope your not talking about my post!!!

If you are I think you really need to take the blinkers off mate, just rspond and let me know what you feel is wrong.

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Post by Glas a du Sun 10 Mar 2013, 9:47 am

I agree as to some of your point DrNick, but there were occasions when I blew out my cheeks and said "well that could have gone the other way/we were lucky to get away with that". Scotland caused us a lot of problems fair play. When we were 7 up I'd have gone for the corner. It showed the trouble we were having with you that they decided to go for the 10 point gap.
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Post by thebluesmancometh Sun 10 Mar 2013, 9:47 am

And if you reported Maj's post I think you've been extremely unfair, he's pretty accurate there.

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Post by George Carlin Sun 10 Mar 2013, 9:51 am

Neither, Bluesman.
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Post by cakeordeath Sun 10 Mar 2013, 9:51 am

thebluesmancometh wrote:Sorry to be the welshman seemingly coming on to gloat or rile but I have to disagree with some of your points George...

2. Joubert was a nightmare, for both teams, but when we actually saw any scrummaging it was clear Wales had Scotland on toast. The early engagements can't really be argued with (Wales didn't go early and managed to play Jouberts stupid interperetation) but for the few pens/freekicks you gave away I think you got 9 points in return from a scrum who was clearly superior. Thats a positive for Joubert in my book from a Scot POV.
Lineout again was looking very very difficult to beat, esp on our throw, but the injury to Grey seemed to stem the flow!

I have to disagree with you. Joubert nullified Scotlands scrum by constantly pinging it for early engagement, while seeming not to apply the same to the Welsh front row.

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Post by thebluesmancometh Sun 10 Mar 2013, 9:52 am

George Carlin wrote:Neither, Bluesman.

tomato TAXI...

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Post by thebluesmancometh Sun 10 Mar 2013, 9:55 am

Cake

I see your point, but the early engagements early on can't be argued with, Scotland did go early (although granted Wales did once too later on without being pinged) But when the teams were allowed to scrum Wales were clearly on top, which is why the 9 points for Scotland were such a mystery (especially when 2 of the 3 penalties were just scottish mistakes (slips).

But then when are scrums not a bit of a lottery? We could blank out the team names and people would think we were talking about every match played over the last 10 years.

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Post by cakeordeath Sun 10 Mar 2013, 10:10 am

thebluesmancometh wrote:Cake

I see your point, but the early engagements early on can't be argued with, Scotland did go early (although granted Wales did once too later on without being pinged) But when the teams were allowed to scrum Wales were clearly on top, which is why the 9 points for Scotland were such a mystery (especially when 2 of the 3 penalties were just scottish mistakes (slips).

But then when are scrums not a bit of a lottery? We could blank out the team names and people would think we were talking about every match played over the last 10 years.

Again I don't agree. The first penalty Wales got was from a scrum. The referee pings Scotland twice for early engagement then Wales go early and Joubert gives the penalty against Scotland. You could argue Wales adapted better to Joubert's timing, but I think it is difficult to say Wales were dominant when it is clear the referee was a major influence.

Not taking anything away from Wales though, we could have played that game with any other referee and we would never have won it.

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Post by RDW Sun 10 Mar 2013, 10:13 am

Well that was a sack of crap.

Welsh tactics - kick it to Scotland and wait for them to make mistakes / give away penalties

Scottish tactics - make mistakes and give away penalties.

Joubert - 'I've not blown my whislte for 30s, I suppose I better!

All that combined to make one of the worst games I can remember - almost as bad as the Welsh game 2 years ago.

I'm gonna focus on Scotland here because the Welsh have got the match thread that they seem to have taken over for discussing their team, so let's make this one the Scottish one.

We were pretty bad. I hate being the team where the opposition just needs to wait for us to make mistakes or give away penalties to win the game - and we tend to oblige.

The scrum was a mess.

Crazily there were only 8 scrums in that game - it felt like there were double that! I was screaming in frustration when we gave away yet another early engagement in the first scrum in the game - we have literally done that in every 6N game this year. It directly led to 3 points too.

I think we have a good scrum, but we don't have an intelligent scrum. Yes they won't come against a ref like that very often, but Wales coped well with him. Saying that I've never seen a hooker being given a personal final warning for a scrum infringement!!!

Early engagements aside, there was one scrum that was the most frustrating. After Weir's fantastic piece of play we had a scum on their 5m line. Instead of going for a solid scrum to give a good attacking platform we went for the big push and messed up - gave away a penalty and all that good work went to waste. When a team is defending a scrum on their 5m line they aren't pushing as much as their backrow have their head up waiting for the 8 pickup. Therefore it shouldn't be difficult to get a solid scrum - yet we messed up one of our few attacking opportunities and gave Wales an easy out.

And that was the story of our game - we gave Wales too many easy outs. Stupid penalties, scrum interments, and most infuriatingly we pulled their lineout down when Weir had put in a fantastic kick into their 22.

Rambling on a bit so should probably sum up:

Positives

Weir played well generally - worth staying with him

Laidlaw's kicking was immense - here did those long range kicks come from??

That's about it.

Negatives

Everything mentioned previously!


As the Scotland put it this morning - not just an embarrassing rugby match, but an embarrassment for rugby, an assault on the senses and some grim history rewritten.

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Post by RDW Sun 10 Mar 2013, 10:17 am

Oh totally forgot to mention the debacle that was our try line attempt at the end of the game - what a mess that was.

We clearly were never going to score from forwards pick ups and the backs were screaming for it out wide because at one point we had an entire backline against 3 defenders - even our backs could have scored that!

I think Laidlaw has got to take criticism for that one - he was in the thick of it and should have looked up to see the backs crying out for the ball.

Final point - I hope Dean Ryan tore Hamilton a new one for that penalty he gave away at the end of the first half.

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Post by thomh Sun 10 Mar 2013, 10:26 am

George Carlin wrote:Can I just add at this point that I have already reported one of the posts above to the mods.

Let's keep it nice and constructive please. I cannot be bothered with crowing or wumming, so if you'd like to pull people's plonkers, please can anyone so inclined do it somewhere else.

Many thanks. OK

I assume it's docktornicolas' post, as the exclamation mark on it has changed colour. Written a bit provocatively, but in terms of its content I think it is at least a plausible interpretation of Scotland's recent performances. They were pretty poor against Tonga, England and Wales.

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Post by bsando Sun 10 Mar 2013, 12:11 pm

His post is clearly aimed to make Scottish fans blood boil thomh, in a well written thread that has been posted by GC to discuss where Scotland went wrong. There were some equally atrocious comments on my match thread after the game yesterday which i chose to ignore. If any Scottish fan said the same thing about Wales equally bad autumn campaign then I hope they would be reported too. It's also very unfair to say posters on 606v2 are "crazy" for picking a lions team with lots of Scottish players in it. He is basically suggesting Scotland are inferior and their fans do not deserve to be respected. That's all I'm gonna say on the matter because I don't want to ruin this thread with childish debates. If anyone disagrees with what I have said please pm me and we can talk about it there instead of on a perfectly good thread Smile

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Post by bsando Sun 10 Mar 2013, 12:24 pm

I agree with you GC on the choices at backrow. I think Johnson should have included Roddy grant in the training squad. He has potential in my view and would have been a good option to have at 7. Harley has been very passive last two games, it's frustrating because he is capable of much more.

RDW - I think Laidlaw's long kicks might have been due to the wind. I think you summed up the game very fairly. Despite Joubert being a fool at times, Scotland did create a lot of their own problems. The points you make about Scotland being in a good position to attack and stuffing it up are very true and hopefully they'll cut those out vs France.

My favourite Scottish performer yesterday was Beattie actually. He had a very good game despite dropping one ball.


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Post by thebluesmancometh Sun 10 Mar 2013, 12:30 pm

cakeordeath wrote:
thebluesmancometh wrote:Cake

I see your point, but the early engagements early on can't be argued with, Scotland did go early (although granted Wales did once too later on without being pinged) But when the teams were allowed to scrum Wales were clearly on top, which is why the 9 points for Scotland were such a mystery (especially when 2 of the 3 penalties were just scottish mistakes (slips).

But then when are scrums not a bit of a lottery? We could blank out the team names and people would think we were talking about every match played over the last 10 years.

Again I don't agree. The first penalty Wales got was from a scrum. The referee pings Scotland twice for early engagement then Wales go early and Joubert gives the penalty against Scotland. You could argue Wales adapted better to Joubert's timing, but I think it is difficult to say Wales were dominant when it is clear the referee was a major influence.

Not taking anything away from Wales though, we could have played that game with any other referee and we would never have won it.

Well disagreeing about the potential for a Scottish win aside, your right on the scrum penaltys, but when the scrum was allowed to be a contest Wales were clearly stronger, 2 of our 4 scrum penalties were from shunting the Scottish back onto themselves, all 3 of Scotlands scrum penalties were for engagement issues in one form or another.

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Post by RDW Sun 10 Mar 2013, 12:36 pm

By the time we actually managed to have any scrums Scotland were so worried about giving away any more early engagements that they gave a very passive 'hit' and so stood no chance in the scrummaging.

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Post by thebluesmancometh Sun 10 Mar 2013, 12:38 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:By the time we actually managed to have any scrums Scotland were so worried about giving away any more early engagements that they gave a very passive 'hit' and so stood no chance in the scrummaging.

That was very true on 2 occasions that jump to mind, Scotland lost the hit and Laidlaw refused to put it in, and then lost the hit, retreated 3/4 yards and managed to hold solid from there...

But the Scots scrum isn't a particular weapon at present, as you said the beef is there, it's just lacking some brains!

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Sun 10 Mar 2013, 12:48 pm

Was at the game yesterday so had no idea what the bulk of the penalties were for.

rewatching on the iplayer as i type this and if the 1st scrum (3 minutes into the match) is indicative of Joubert for the whole game, we have been absolutely shafted.

2 apparent early engagements from Scotland (0.34 seconds from the word "set") earn Wales 2 free kicks. We are warned that the next one we concede is a penalty. The next scrum Wales engage 0.34 seconds after the word "set" get a shove on our guys because they are not wanting to concede a Penalty and get penalised anyway.

disgraceful refereeing.

more to follow tomorrow when i have a real keyboard
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Post by DrTreasure Sun 10 Mar 2013, 12:49 pm

Hi all, especially fellow scots fans. This is the first time I have posted. Been reading the forum for some time but not registered. I also have no intention of responding to any ridiculous, leading posts from other nationalities or writing critism of other nations. I am on to discuss Scottish rugby.

Yesterday was one of the worst games I have watched in some time and Joubert must take a lot of credit for that though the Scots scrum should have adapted quicker to his style of reffing. The IRB will have to have a long look at the scrums as they are killing rugby as a spectacle. I also think there is something wrong with the ruling that when the defending team hold the ball up long enough for the ref to call maul they can then take it to the ground, lie all over and kill the ball and then win the scrum. I also feel that the penalty against Beattie in front of our posts needs to be looked at as I don't know what else he is meant to do in that situation.

From a Scots perspective I would like us to stop playing as if we are trying to avoid losing, not going out to win. We arent playing rugby. New Zealand are the best team in the world because they go out to beat teams, they are creative, quick and throw it around. We, and others, are scared to actually play and try things. Its boring. I look back at the last success Scotland had when we won the '99 5 nations. We scored great tries, we threw it around and had confidence in our 10,12,13 axis. Glasgow currently show a lot of enterprise in attack and that goes someway towards their success. The Matawala approach; no fear, lets run, enjoy it and have a go. For every time it goes wrong, I'll make sure I get it right twice.

I am a big fan of Harley as a tough player who will tackle all day but we do need a bit more at the moment, ie someone who will carry the ball and contest their breakdown like Warbarton did so well against us in the second half. With no Rennie or Fusaro currently, I would pick Barclay who I have been impressed with in recent games and will offer more. We have nothing to lose in France, lets use it as a chance to develop for the future. I love Sean's commitment to the country but his presence in the centres kills our creatvity. The last two matches we havent passed it the 10,12,13 channel once. Thats appalling and needs looked at. Dunbar more than deserves his shot the way he is playing. Lets give him and Scott time to develop together. I also think Weir has the potential to be very good for us but Heathcote deserves another shot. He has been poorly treated after commiting to us and is playing very well for Bath.

I was pleased to see Wilson get a chance, he has been fantastic for Glasgow and lets give Swinson a shot in the second row. He will give us more mobility in the loose and has again been excellent recently. We have a great chance against France to play with no fear. I dont care if they lose but I want them to go for it. Remember that first half in paris '99, Metcalfe tearing it up, Townsend and Tait scoring, Leslie the link between it all. We have the guys who can do that. Lets give them the chance and the freedom.

I will always be that optimistic Scotsman thinking its almost coming together. Now more than ever as this is as good a squad as we have had in a long time. We will have more lions that the previous 4 tours. I think that is huge for us. The players who go benefit and are better players for that experience and we have missed out for some time now, a vicious cycle; our players havent been good enough and other countries get better for it.

Come on Scott, let go of the shackles, give other guys the shot they deserve and let them have a go against the French. The talent is there.

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Post by RDW Sun 10 Mar 2013, 12:51 pm

It's not consistent which is the main problem. We did poorly against England, well against Italy, very well against Ireland then had that debacle against Wales.

I suspect there was some gamesmanship from the Welsh too - delaying their hit to make it look worse for the Scots. Intelligent scrummaging.

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Post by RDW Sun 10 Mar 2013, 12:54 pm

Great to have you Drtreasure!

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Post by thebluesmancometh Sun 10 Mar 2013, 12:55 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:It's not consistent which is the main problem. We did poorly against England, well against Italy, very well against Ireland then had that debacle against Wales.

I suspect there was some gamesmanship from the Welsh too - delaying their hit to make it look worse for the Scots. Intelligent scrummaging.

The ospreys tight 5 are excellent at that, and they were all there (even if James has moved on) the joys of having a settled, freidly pack who knows each other eh?

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Post by Imperialbigdave Sun 10 Mar 2013, 12:56 pm

I dont think Dean Ryan is the man for the job. Under him our forwards have been so passive at the breakdown, and that is 4 games in a row now. After each game the coaches keep bleating on about how our forward performance was unnaceptable, and yet there will be no change at the next game.

And the tactic of not wanting to play with the ball. Only about 6 years out of date.

These are tactical issues that rest upon the shoulders of the coaches and the leaders on the pitch, and im afraid its just not good enough to get them consistently wrong 4 games in a row.
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Post by Scrumdown Sun 10 Mar 2013, 12:57 pm

The main issue for scotland going forward is the uniformity of the gene pool of the scottish population which it would appear is not ideal for producing individuals who have sporting ability.

Even though scotland has a larger population than wales, wales totally outperforms it in terms of sporting success, whether it be football or rugby.


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Post by thebluesmancometh Sun 10 Mar 2013, 12:59 pm

Scrumdown wrote:The main issue for scotland going forward is the uniformity of the gene pool of the scottish population which it would appear is not ideal for producing individuals who have sporting ability.

Even though scotland has a larger population than wales, wales totally outperforms it in terms of sporting success, whether it be football or rugby.


WTF... jog on mate!

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Post by cakeordeath Sun 10 Mar 2013, 1:00 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:
Scrumdown wrote:The main issue for scotland going forward is the uniformity of the gene pool of the scottish population which it would appear is not ideal for producing individuals who have sporting ability.

Even though scotland has a larger population than wales, wales totally outperforms it in terms of sporting success, whether it be football or rugby.


WTF... jog on mate!

What blues said

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Post by flyhalffactory Sun 10 Mar 2013, 1:02 pm

Scrumdown wrote:The main issue for scotland going forward is the uniformity of the gene pool of the scottish population which it would appear is not ideal for producing individuals who have sporting ability.

Even though scotland has a larger population than wales, wales totally outperforms it in terms of sporting success, whether it be football or rugby.



Bit of meat on the bone Scrumdown........... we are all waiting with bated breath

Do you actually mean individuals..... and you do actually realise that you are posting on a "team" based thread i.e. RUGBY UNION

If you are talking individuals...... Chris Hoy, Andy Murray, Katherine Grainger,....... the list can go on and on

Then again we know you won't reply as your basic denominator is to WUM

As my compatriots say "Jog On"


Last edited by flyhalffactory on Sun 10 Mar 2013, 1:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by 100%beefy Sun 10 Mar 2013, 1:14 pm

Scrumdown wrote:The main issue for scotland going forward is the uniformity of the gene pool of the scottish population which it would appear is not ideal for producing individuals who have sporting ability.

Even though scotland has a larger population than wales, wales totally outperforms it in terms of sporting success, whether it be football or rugby.


cheap and rubbish wummery, based on your own argument alone you must be scottish...if not, grow up quick before your gob gets you fillled in

In half a second I can think of some of the best tennis players, athletes, footballers and rugby players who were scottish. Andy Murray, Alan Wells, Ally McCosit, Gavin Hastings, all world class sportsmen who beg to differ

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Post by glamorganalun Sun 10 Mar 2013, 1:18 pm

Scrumdown wrote:The main issue for scotland going forward is the uniformity of the gene pool of the scottish population which it would appear is not ideal for producing individuals who have sporting ability.

Even though scotland has a larger population than wales, wales totally outperforms it in terms of sporting success, whether it be football or rugby.


What planet are you on?

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Sun 10 Mar 2013, 1:38 pm

That 2nd scrum after Weir's kick wasn't an early engagement either. Joubert doesn't have a clue.
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Post by Morgannwg Sun 10 Mar 2013, 1:49 pm

doctornickolas wrote:Scotland went early very clearly on loads of occassions which was just dumb. You can blame the ref if you like but what is he supposed to do when a side does the same thing over and over. Wales shoved Scotland back in the early scrums and Scotland knew they had to go early to have any chance but they couldn't get it right. Not the refs fault.

Wales gave away loads of stupid penalties but they were lucky that Scotland were determined to beat Wales at something and so gave away even more stupid ones. Again you can't blame the ref when Scotland come around the wrong side at a ruck as they got pinged for at least twice.

I felt Scotland should have had at least one yellow given the number of penalties they gave away in their 22. Paul James got a yellow for it so why didn't a Scotland player.

I just don't think Scotland are as good as you guys think they are. If Scotland win a game then realism goes out the window. After losing to Tonga in the Autumn, Scotland got pasted by England, won their annual wooden spoon challenge against Italy and then somehow (and no one still knows how) beat an Ireland side that should have been out of sight by half time.

On the back of that I have seen Lions squads posted with 12 Scots in it awhich is crazy. I don't think there are many Scots who would get in Wales, England or Irelands first 15 to be honest.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Sorry to be the welshman seemingly coming on to gloat or rile but I have to disagree with some of your points George...

1. England were in exactly the same position last year, new coach, players and limited gameplan. A back to basics approach was adopted by them and was pretty effective, SJ has done exactly the same thing with a degree of success, allbeit not the same degree as England.

2. Joubert was a nightmare, for both teams, but when we actually saw any scrummaging it was clear Wales had Scotland on toast. The early engagements can't really be argued with (Wales didn't go early and managed to play Jouberts stupid interperetation) but for the few pens/freekicks you gave away I think you got 9 points in return from a scrum who was clearly superior. Thats a positive for Joubert in my book from a Scot POV.
Lineout again was looking very very difficult to beat, esp on our throw, but the injury to Grey seemed to stem the flow!

3. Playing that kinda safe game has worked for many teams in recent years, NZ and SA not to mention Wales GS's. It's how you kick and cope with the return thats important, and I though firt hour or so it was working perfectly!!!

4. Aye you need an openside back (although I think Brown is playing extremely well, and very good captain, he'd be on my plane to Oz right now)

5. Scott was always a bad appointment IMHO, he is so sleazy, annoying and damn right unlikeable, not to mention he loves to live off other people acheivements! Ryan is key as you say!

6. France are extremely beatable, but you have them last up and may just have to deal with a backlash kind of performance. Although the type of gameplan youve played so far will be key, surpress and frustrate the French, keep them in their own half and make them play out, live off the mistakes. Laidlaw should win any kicking battle and with Hogg's and Wiers ever developing kicking game you could really put them in trouble.

Ultimately though I do feel a bit bad, I mentioned on the thread that Joubert looked like he had taken a disliking to Scotland early on, and Wales probably got the slight rub of the green (except he tried his best to even things out), Scotland were a very tough game for once (no offence) and the threat of a score was there until late.

'Joubert ruined a perfectly good game of rugby Scotland had no intention of allowing anyone to play'

^^^ I think that says it all.

The two most accurate posts on here. One of them got complained about and I don't see why. I guess some people can't handle the truth. Well said guys.

As usual the knives are already out for Wales after another success. Englanders hopping on board the bandwagon and blaming the opposition and referee. The last three games they've predicted us to lose and haven't posted congratulations, just trying to point out flaws. A bit of a fear factor creeping in before the final weekend obvs.

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Post by jimbopip Sun 10 Mar 2013, 1:53 pm

Welcome to DrTreasure.
I was at the game and invested a few pence on the Refmike earpiece thingie.
After the first scrum Kelly Brown approached Joubert and was clearly saying, "They were soft, they were really soft" (bear in mind my memory may be affected by overindulgence so this may not be verbatim) which we all know means he is telling the ref that the Welsh weren't taking the hit. Then for the last scrum Joubert takes Ross Ford aside and warns him that if Scotland go early he will receive a yellow card. Result ; the Scots are hesitant and the Welsh drive through them and are given a penalty. Thus a seven point deficit with a few minutes left and the game in the balance became a ten point deficit and game over. The penalties Joubert awarded were appalling and often made no sense at all. I'm not sure about the game as a spectacle because until the seventy somethingth minute there was nothing in it and as such it was gripping from where I was watching. In all honestly I would be very happy if Mr Joubert never reffed Scotland again.
P.S. Top marks to the Welsh fans, my son was amazed by the conviviality and good humour, and beer shared by both sets of supporters.

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Post by George Carlin Sun 10 Mar 2013, 2:01 pm

I created one thread, just one, in the hope that we could talk about Scotland's prospects as a team without it descending into simian poo-throwing or it ending up being all about Wales.

How terribly, terribly sad that this seems to be impossible.

Believe it or not, I started the post not actually thinking about Wales in the slightest, whom I already congratulated on the day of the game on the match thread for their victory. Are people really unable to place their views in any kind of context?

I cannot recall if there was this volume of graceless trash on the original 606. My recollection is that things have regressed.
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Post by Morgannwg Sun 10 Mar 2013, 2:11 pm

Yeah that's a shame. I guess you can't post a thread without Englanders blaming the ref for Wales' win (you know, the ones who brought Wales into it?). I first logged on to online rugby forums in 2008. Scotland have lost to Wales in every game since then and on every occassion the fans have moaned about the ref.

If you want my tuppence worth on Scottish rugby... A lot of things need to change at the grassroots before you can think about winning more than two games in the 6 Nations. Are things on the way up? Yes it has to be. Glasgow and Scotland A are demolishing their opposition. Edinburgh will hopefully improve with their new coaching staff. Perhaps an extra team will help (Borders?) and investment into U16, U18, U20 rugby. Wales were poor but before 2005 they were at least knocking on the door and showing that they had potential. Scotland have potential but don't seem to be there yet, which is why I didn't get the optimism going into this game. I suppose fans being optimistic is fine though, shows the passion.
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Post by glamorganalun Sun 10 Mar 2013, 2:23 pm

The big positive for Scotland since last year is their defence which has massively improved, last year Wales were just running straight past weak disorganised backline. Scotland must have a decent 7 in their team that made Warburton's game so easy with no competition made even easier with front 5 dominance. Scotland need express relieve i.e. a good Rennie for me he was MOTM against Wales last year.

Another observation, Scotland (like Wales) kick far too much throwing away hard fought ball, this reminds me of the Ospreys before SJ left them. SJ leaving the Ospreys resulted in the Ospreys improving and winning the RABO by not kicking away ball. Does this mean SJ is a one trick pony (two if including the defence) we may find out in a year or so?


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Post by Glas a du Sun 10 Mar 2013, 2:24 pm

Seeing Weir kick to touch was strange. I know our line out misfires, but as a tactic it just didn't work.
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Post by Morgannwg Sun 10 Mar 2013, 2:24 pm

Definitely a one trick pony. The head coach role isn't for him.
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Post by Morgannwg Sun 10 Mar 2013, 2:27 pm

Scotland will beat France, IMO, but need to run with the ball more in order to do so. PSA will then get the sack. His record in two 6 Nations tournaments are abysmal.
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Post by Scrumdown Sun 10 Mar 2013, 2:41 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Scrumdown wrote:The main issue for scotland going forward is the uniformity of the gene pool of the scottish population which it would appear is not ideal for producing individuals who have sporting ability.

Even though scotland has a larger population than wales, wales totally outperforms it in terms of sporting success, whether it be football or rugby.



Bit of meat on the bone Scrumdown........... we are all waiting with bated breath

Do you actually mean individuals..... and you do actually realise that you are posting on a "team" based thread i.e. RUGBY UNION

If you are talking individuals...... Chris Hoy, Andy Murray, Katherine Grainger,....... the list can go on and on

Then again we know you won't reply as your basic denominator is to WUM

As my compatriots say "Jog On"

All I am saying is that there is a connection between our genes and our sporting ability. The scottish population would appear to have an unfavourable set of genes for sporting success, possibly due to a lack of immigration.

There is a scientific reason why long distance running is dominated by east africans, sprinting by jamaicans, weightlifting by caucasians, rugby by polynesians etc

Cycling and tennis are both elitist sports which makes it easier for a relatively wealthy nation such as scotland to produce champions. Andy Murray is also an exception which is unlikely to be repeated in our lifetime.

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Post by thebluesmancometh Sun 10 Mar 2013, 2:42 pm

George Carlin wrote:I created one thread, just one, in the hope that we could talk about Scotland's prospects as a team without it descending into simian poo-throwing or it ending up being all about Wales.

How terribly, terribly sad that this seems to be impossible.

Believe it or not, I started the post not actually thinking about Wales in the slightest, whom I already congratulated on the day of the game on the match thread for their victory. Are people really unable to place their views in any kind of context?

I cannot recall if there was this volume of graceless trash on the original 606. My recollection is that things have regressed.

So you wanted to discuss Scotlands performance against Wales without accepting Wales had any contributory factor in the game???

You don't need to read where a poster is from and condemn all posters from the same nation as the same, please feel free to debate my points regarding the Scottish performance in the game, or not, or just have a whinge that it's all about Wales... It's your call.

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Post by Morgannwg Sun 10 Mar 2013, 2:49 pm

Scrumdown wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Scrumdown wrote:The main issue for scotland going forward is the uniformity of the gene pool of the scottish population which it would appear is not ideal for producing individuals who have sporting ability.

Even though scotland has a larger population than wales, wales totally outperforms it in terms of sporting success, whether it be football or rugby.



Bit of meat on the bone Scrumdown........... we are all waiting with bated breath

Do you actually mean individuals..... and you do actually realise that you are posting on a "team" based thread i.e. RUGBY UNION

If you are talking individuals...... Chris Hoy, Andy Murray, Katherine Grainger,....... the list can go on and on

Then again we know you won't reply as your basic denominator is to WUM

As my compatriots say "Jog On"

All I am saying is that there is a connection between our genes and our sporting ability. The scottish population would appear to have an unfavourable set of genes for sporting success, possibly due to a lack of immigration.

There is a scientific reason why long distance running is dominated by east africans, sprinting by jamaicans, weightlifting by caucasians, rugby by polynesians etc

Cycling and tennis are both elitist sports which makes it easier for a relatively wealthy nation such as scotland to produce champions. Andy Murray is also an exception which is unlikely to be repeated in our lifetime.

Don't really get this... Did you know a German scientist once proved that immigration produces weaker genes? He inspired a future dictator too.
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Post by Scrumdown Sun 10 Mar 2013, 2:57 pm

Wales greatest athlete: colin jackson
Wales greatest footballer: ryan giggs
Wales greatest boxer : joe calzaghe

The gene pool in wales is far more diverse than it is in scotland and is a factor in my opinion.

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Post by 100%beefy Sun 10 Mar 2013, 2:59 pm

George Carlin wrote:I created one thread, just one, in the hope that we could talk about Scotland's prospects as a team without it descending into simian poo-throwing or it ending up being all about Wales.

How terribly, terribly sad that this seems to be impossible.

Believe it or not, I started the post not actually thinking about Wales in the slightest, whom I already congratulated on the day of the game on the match thread for their victory. Are people really unable to place their views in any kind of context?

I cannot recall if there was this volume of graceless trash on the original 606. My recollection is that things have regressed.

george stop being so sensitive mun

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