Post Scotland v Wales: Scotland consolidation thread

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :

Well, I didn't see the game last night but it sounds like it was ruined as a spectacle from the outset by Liza Minelli Joubert.

Where are we now as a team? What do we know? Does our current placing reflect accurately where we are as a squad?

It seems to me (admittedly, not having seen the game, so I'll need your help) that:

1. The lack of time together with the squad and management has told? We didn't have much time with SJ and DR and it has ultimately showed. A 'back to basics' approach was necessary for us but also expedient as we didn't have the opportunity to consider more complex structures. I think what I'm saying is that you cannot blame the coaches for this. The core of the Welsh team have been together for years and that cohesiveness, especially in defense, seems to show when it counts.

2. Our set piece is good, provided that horrendous refeering does not do us a disservice.

3. However, just because we are solid defensively, adopting what is clearly a pre-ascertained strategy of not playing in our own half puts a lot of pressure on us defensively. Ironically, it does not play to our current strengths, which is giving our back three a chance with ball in hand.

4. We are missing Rennie and Barclay desperately. I don't think that it's sustainable to play Harley instead of Barclay or Fusaro in the next match. We need a fetcher.

5. I think that the value of Scott Johnson as a coach will diminish considerably if the SRU cannot persuade Dean Ryan to stay on. All good coaching set-ups are team affairs (Henry and Wayne, Mallett and Meehan, Dingo Deans and his sock puppet).

6. Unless we beat France, I am minded not to try and describe this campaign as a success. Mathematically we cannot finish bottom but with this group of players, I actually expected better.

What are your thoughts about where we are now?

[reallybored]

Personally I've been impressed with what I've seen from Scotland so far this 6 Nations, obviously yesterday was incredibly frustrating and once again our inability to keep hold of the ball cost us.

But when you break it down, we've definitely improved the majority of our game;

Defence has been much improved this term due to the level of graft from the pack, with English game the obvious exception, and I've been impressed with our ability to keep our composure while withstanding pressure on our line. Other than against England, we've been successful at slowing the oppositions ball down and allowed our defence to remain organised.

Line-out is looking strong again with Gray and Hamilton in the middle, our own ball has been pretty assured and we've put good pressure on the oppositions, we bettered both Ireland and Wales in this area of the game.

Scrum has been strong other than yesterday's horror show but that was purely down to Joubert's handling of the engage. We definitely had parity with England, shaded italy and beat Ireland in this area, next week's examination by the French will be the most important indicator.

Laidlaw's kicking has been oustanding, comfortably as good as Farrel's or Halfpenny's, and this has enabled us to stay with teams despite limited opportunities.

Those are the basic elements to any test team, if you want to compete with the top tier teams you ned to have those basics.

Obviously what we've been lacking is the direction in attack and all to often we've kicked possession away cheaply, small pods of players get isolated or there's been poor execution. It's as if the team don't quite know how their going to get momentum and create space for the wide men.

Which is a shame because for the first time in years we've got some really good attacking players in the backs with the likes of Scott, Visser, Maitland and Hogg. But we need to create momentum through the middle to create the space for them outwide because if they get chances they're good enough to take them.

Everyone talks about losing the breakdown battle but the problem has been the gain-line, all too often we're going backwards in possession giving the opposition the advantage. If you don't get over the gain-line you will struggle to hold onto the ball, so thats what we need to improve.

There are plenty of players capable of doing this because we've got some seriously big lads throughout the team, they need to take the ball flat and at pace. If we can get over the gain-line and force opposition to go backwards in defence, there'll be opportunities in the wider areas. We need to see Beattie, Brown, Lamont, Gray, Ford and Scott leading by example here and getting their hands on the ball in the midfield. I'd be tempted to put Dunbar in, his greatest skill is the ability to pick good angles and his acceleration to get over the gain-line.

Long term this team has the potential to develop into a top tier side; the age profile is pretty good with a mix of experience and youth, they've got the basic ingredients and there are a handful of possibly top class players in the team.

Next year I'd hope to see Welsh, MacArthur, Gilchirst, Barclay, Rennie, Denton, Cusiter, Heathcote, Dunbar, Bennett and Ansbro involved in the squad as well.

Whether Johnson is the right guy long-term remains to be seen but I'd like to the SRU to at least check who else would be interested. It's not a bad job for a top coach; Edinburgh is a pretty good city, SRU will pay a good wage, 6 Nations every year, beating Samoa the key to a quarter at world cup, most of the squad is centralling contracted and there's a handful of potentially class players. I would like to see Johnson remain invovled, he seems to have a positive influence on the players but I wouldn't mind a Dean Ryan figure in there to put the fear of god in them as well.

Next week will be interesting; our set-piece will get a thorough examination as will our defence with the power of the French. But I expect to see more of the backs because our games tend to be quite open in Paris and the players will know they have to throw the kitchen sink at them if they want to finish on a high. Keep the faith, this is the beginning of a process and it'll take a bit of time.

[Guest]

"I just don't think Scotland are as good as you guys think they are. If Scotland win a game then realism goes out the window. After losing to Tonga in the Autumn, Scotland got pasted by England, won their annual wooden spoon challenge against Italy and then somehow (and no one still knows how) beat an Ireland side that should have been out of sight by half time.

On the back of that I have seen Lions squads posted with 12 Scots in it awhich is crazy. I don't think there are many Scots who would get in Wales, England or Irelands first 15 to be honest"

I guess people are mostly getting the hump over this part of Dr Nic's post, but it is pretty fair. It's about Scotland and I think that it's fair to say Scotland are a little overhyped before every Six Nations (though not to the extent that France have been this year). Also he's right to mention that the 10-12 Lions from Scotland mentioned was a wee bit OTT.

If you want a Scottish only discussion, then don't post on an open forum. Don't the SRU have a forum?

[reallybored]

Why are Glasgow spanking the Welsh regions in the Rabo then?

It's just arrogance to assume your players are better than ours because they're Scottish. None of your back-row are still in the HC with their clubs, both Beattie and Brown are important players for top sides. How could Visser possibly score more for Edinburgh than either North or Cuthbert can manage? Why did Rennie have more turnovers than either Welsh open-side last 6 Nations? How could Laidlaw possibly have a better kicking percentage than any other kicker?

You only created one line break yesterday despite dominating possessions, that either speaks volumes about our defence or the Welsh attack.

We're at the beginning of a building process, you look like you're going backwards from last year.

[Morgannwg]

It's just arrogance to assume your players are better than ours because they're Scottish. None of your back-row are still in the HC with their clubs, both Beattie and Brown are important players for top sides.

I wouldn't assume that overall. But people can and will assume it, as Wales have won 6 games in a row. Most of which quite convincing. As for your second statemetn...

We're at the beginning of a building process, you look like you're going backwards from last year.

You still have a lot of the same players in your squad as you have done the past few years, certainly not at the beginning but definitely in a process on the way to something new. So to an extent yes this statement is true. But it seems more of an attack against Wales rather than a critique or constructive arguement.

[bsando]

Hi all, especially fellow scots fans. This is the first time I have posted. Been reading the forum for some time but not registered. I also have no intention of responding to any ridiculous, leading posts from other nationalities or writing critism of other nations. I am on to discuss Scottish rugby.

Yesterday was one of the worst games I have watched in some time and Joubert must take a lot of credit for that though the Scots scrum should have adapted quicker to his style of reffing. The IRB will have to have a long look at the scrums as they are killing rugby as a spectacle. I also think there is something wrong with the ruling that when the defending team hold the ball up long enough for the ref to call maul they can then take it to the ground, lie all over and kill the ball and then win the scrum. I also feel that the penalty against Beattie in front of our posts needs to be looked at as I don't know what else he is meant to do in that situation.

From a Scots perspective I would like us to stop playing as if we are trying to avoid losing, not going out to win. We arent playing rugby. New Zealand are the best team in the world because they go out to beat teams, they are creative, quick and throw it around. We, and others, are scared to actually play and try things. Its boring. I look back at the last success Scotland had when we won the '99 5 nations. We scored great tries, we threw it around and had confidence in our 10,12,13 axis. Glasgow currently show a lot of enterprise in attack and that goes someway towards their success. The Matawala approach; no fear, lets run, enjoy it and have a go. For every time it goes wrong, I'll make sure I get it right twice.

I am a big fan of Harley as a tough player who will tackle all day but we do need a bit more at the moment, ie someone who will carry the ball and contest their breakdown like Warbarton did so well against us in the second half. With no Rennie or Fusaro currently, I would pick Barclay who I have been impressed with in recent games and will offer more. We have nothing to lose in France, lets use it as a chance to develop for the future. I love Sean's commitment to the country but his presence in the centres kills our creatvity. The last two matches we havent passed it the 10,12,13 channel once. Thats appalling and needs looked at. Dunbar more than deserves his shot the way he is playing. Lets give him and Scott time to develop together. I also think Weir has the potential to be very good for us but Heathcote deserves another shot. He has been poorly treated after commiting to us and is playing very well for Bath.

I was pleased to see Wilson get a chance, he has been fantastic for Glasgow and lets give Swinson a shot in the second row. He will give us more mobility in the loose and has again been excellent recently. We have a great chance against France to play with no fear. I dont care if they lose but I want them to go for it. Remember that first half in paris '99, Metcalfe tearing it up, Townsend and Tait scoring, Leslie the link between it all. We have the guys who can do that. Lets give them the chance and the freedom.

I will always be that optimistic Scotsman thinking its almost coming together. Now more than ever as this is as good a squad as we have had in a long time. We will have more lions that the previous 4 tours. I think that is huge for us. The players who go benefit and are better players for that experience and we have missed out for some time now, a vicious cycle; our players havent been good enough and other countries get better for it.

Come on Scott, let go of the shackles, give other guys the shot they deserve and let them have a go against the French. The talent is there.

Wow! Totally agree fantastic post Dr Treasure, welcome to 606v2

[reallybored]

You still have a lot of the same players in your squad as you have done the past few years, certainly not at the beginning but definitely in a process on the way to something new. So to an extent yes this statement is true. But it seems more of an attack against Wales rather than a critique or constructive arguement.

Our backline is pretty much totally different from last season and there's been 4 or 5 new caps up front as well.

And what about you losing to Samoa or Argentina in the Autumn? Sure we were awful against Tonga but you were hardly sparkling yourself.

And then in the summer, you lost all three against Australia. We beat them, we beat the team Australia selected but you couldn't. If our players so much worse than yours, how could that have possibly have happened.

Your performances this year have been average at best, blown away by Ireland before they stopped playing, trudged past a poor French side and battled past a Parrise-less Italy. If yesterday's performance is judged as a good one considering the attacking players you have then you've got problems.

I think most people that follow Scottish rugby are realistic about where we are right now, but others seem judge us on the past decade rather than the team we're actually selecting through ignorance of our players and how they're performing for the clubs.

[Cardiff Taffy]

Scotland went early very clearly on loads of occassions which was just dumb. You can blame the ref if you like but what is he supposed to do when a side does the same thing over and over. Wales shoved Scotland back in the early scrums and Scotland knew they had to go early to have any chance but they couldn't get it right. Not the refs fault.

Wales gave away loads of stupid penalties but they were lucky that Scotland were determined to beat Wales at something and so gave away even more stupid ones. Again you can't blame the ref when Scotland come around the wrong side at a ruck as they got pinged for at least twice.

I felt Scotland should have had at least one yellow given the number of penalties they gave away in their 22. Paul James got a yellow for it so why didn't a Scotland player.

I just don't think Scotland are as good as you guys think they are. If Scotland win a game then realism goes out the window. After losing to Tonga in the Autumn, Scotland got pasted by England, won their annual wooden spoon challenge against Italy and then somehow (and no one still knows how) beat an Ireland side that should have been out of sight by half time.

On the back of that I have seen Lions squads posted with 12 Scots in it awhich is crazy. I don't think there are many Scots who would get in Wales, England or Irelands first 15 to be honest.

+1

[Guest]

When have the Regions' performance ever had a true bearing on Wales' form? If that was the case, when Glasgow turned over Toulouse a few years back, why didn't you beat us then? Why didn't you beat us last year when you had Embra in the semis?

I wouldn't assume Welsh players are better than Scottish players due to nationality. I possibly would say they are better collectively seeing as you haven't beaten Wales since 07. You can offer stats like turnovers or goal kicking, but they haven't really counted for much.

I don't know why there's a few Scottish fans that feel the need to throw stats out all the time (like Hogg's metres gained for another one). If these 10-12 guys are good enough, they'll tour.

Let's face it, you ambushed Australia too. Again, I don't know why it gets brought up all the time as Scotland's wins v Tri Nations etc mean diddly usually come 6 Nations time.

[reallybored]

Let's face it, you ambushed Australia too. Again, I don't know why it gets brought up all the time as Scotland's wins v Tri Nations etc mean diddly usually come 6 Nations time.

Oh, did Australia not get told about the match?

[cakeordeath]

Let's face it, you ambushed Australia too. Again, I don't know why it gets brought up all the time as Scotland's wins v Tri Nations etc mean diddly usually come 6 Nations time.

Oh, did Australia not get told about the match?

That's exactly what happened. We told them they had won a "GIGANTIC YACHT" and they would need to turn up in person to claim their prize (oh and bring their boots)

*Edit* spelling

[Morgannwg]

You still have a lot of the same players in your squad as you have done the past few years, certainly not at the beginning but definitely in a process on the way to something new. So to an extent yes this statement is true. But it seems more of an attack against Wales rather than a critique or constructive arguement.

Our backline is pretty much totally different from last season and there's been 4 or 5 new caps up front as well.

And what about you losing to Samoa or Argentina in the Autumn? Sure we were awful against Tonga but you were hardly sparkling yourself.

And then in the summer, you lost all three against Australia. We beat them, we beat the team Australia selected but you couldn't. If our players so much worse than yours, how could that have possibly have happened.

Your performances this year have been average at best, blown away by Ireland before they stopped playing, trudged past a poor French side and battled past a Parrise-less Italy. If yesterday's performance is judged as a good one considering the attacking players you have then you've got problems.

I think most people that follow Scottish rugby are realistic about where we are right now, but others seem judge us on the past decade rather than the team we're actually selecting through ignorance of our players and how they're performing for the clubs.

Not sure why it is relevant, but yes, Wales were beyond poor in the AI's, I can't quite put my finger on why. So it is Wales who are actually getting better. But still, this team wins championships. Scotland don't. Scotland compete for the spoon and always lose to Italy in Rome. So wins in our last 3 games is a lot more than you lot can achieve.

I don't think the expectations were that realistic. A win over Italy and all of a sudden Scotland were one of the favourites for the 6 Nations... And agree with what the Rev says too.

[George Carlin]

I created one thread, just one, in the hope that we could talk about Scotland's prospects as a team without it descending into simian poo-throwing or it ending up being all about Wales.

How terribly, terribly sad that this seems to be impossible.

Believe it or not, I started the post not actually thinking about Wales in the slightest, whom I already congratulated on the day of the game on the match thread for their victory. Are people really unable to place their views in any kind of context?

I cannot recall if there was this volume of graceless trash on the original 606. My recollection is that things have regressed.

Q1. So you wanted to discuss Scotlands performance against Wales without accepting Wales had any contributory factor in the game???

Q2. You don't need to read where a poster is from and condemn all posters from the same nation as the same,

Q3. please feel free to debate my points regarding the Scottish performance in the game, or not, or just have a whinge that it's all about Wales... It's your call.

A1. No. I don't. I really don't. Short of nailing my testicles to this office chair, I couldn't think of anything I'd like to do less. I want to discuss Scotland's performance and what this means for team selection and management in the future. Scotland has played four games in the tournament so far and so we are able to judge a general thread of play. Wales does not feature anywhere in this consideration for me. Anywhere. I thought I'd made that clear in the preamble. Perhaps I should have used shorter words.

A2. Where has that happened?

A3. There is a third option, of course. Let's see if you can spot what that is.

[bsando]

Anyway... If everyone has quite finished with the handbags, I'd like to talk about the subject of this thread, which was... Where are Scotland after beating France. I shall ensure all my comments are constructive and do not disrespect other nations fans, because basically, it's just common decency really.

As much as I really wanted Scotland to win this weekend, Wales were the better team on the day and there experience and time together really showed. That is what makes Wales Such a great team just now. When things get tough, they have a structure to fall back on.

Scotland need a similar structure, which is why I was so upset to see AR go because I think he could of been really close to bringing together a good side. Alas, he's gone.

However, Scotland are capable of better performances than what we saw at the weekend and if they sort out the stupid penalties, ford, Hamilton etc. then they could cause France a lot of problems next weekend. I am eagerly awaiting this game.

I suspect Scotland will kick the stuffing out of the ball again but I don't care as long as they win. It would also be really nice to see the back three get a chance the stretch their legs as they must have been bored as hell on Saturday.

[RDW]

I honestly don't have a clue how we will perform next week, but I really fear France will run riot. It is a dead rubber game but the French crowd will be baying for blood.

[reallybored]

I don't think the expectations were that realistic. A win over Italy and all of a sudden Scotland were one of the favourites for the 6 Nations... And agree with what the Rev says too.

Who said we were a favourite for the table?

Scotland supporters just thought on paper we were capable of beating Ireland and Wales. This was based on what we'd seen against England and Italy, as well as the form of our players with their clubs and the way the opposition had played so far.

What do you expect or want us to think before matches?

[Morgannwg]

I don't think the expectations were that realistic. A win over Italy and all of a sudden Scotland were one of the favourites for the 6 Nations... And agree with what the Rev says too.

Who said we were a favourite for the table?

Scotland supporters just thought on paper we were capable of beating Ireland and Wales. This was based on what we'd seen against England and Italy, as well as the form of our players with their clubs and the way the opposition had played so far.

Fair enough. But the way I seen it was that Scotland fans thought they were on for the title after wins against Italy and Ireland. They weren't really good against England and Ireland. Probably a factually correct thing to think at that moment in time. I never seen this Scotland team being good enough to do that though. I only see them winning the tournament if they continue improvement for a couple of years. Everytime Scottish rugby improves it seems to stagnate and go backward. I hope that isn't the case this time. I've pointed out the credentials of teams like Glasgow and Scotland A which should show you I believe this time to be different. This tournament though was too soon for it.

[funnyExiledScot]

very difficult to judge Scotland based on my view from the stands. Defence looked good, but we didn't really trouble the Welsh lineout, and as always we were second best at the breakdown. Scrum was a total lottery, so very hard to know how we'll fare against France. Depends entirely on the ref.

I would personally make some changes. I don't think the structure of the side is working well for us. The backrow isn't balanced and the backline just isn't causing enough problems, not that we had any ball to really play with, both as a result of Wales' decent breakdown work, and Joubert's malfunctioning whistle.

Gray is out, so it gives us a chance to freshen up the pack with a couple of changes. My squad for France:

1.Grant 2.Ford 3.Cross 4.Swinson 5.Kellock 6.Brown 7.Barclay 8.Beattie 9.Laidlaw 10.Weir 11.Visser 12.Scott 13.Dunbar 14.Maitland 15.Hogg

16.Murray 17.MacArthur 18.Welsh 19.Hamilton 20.Harley 21.Pyrgos 22.Jackson 23.S Lamont

We need more mobility in the pack, thus my three changes (given that Gray will be missing). Sacrifices bulk in the forwards but increases our mobility, breakdown skills and workrate. We need turnovers to unleash our back three into the game, plus Dunbar's offloading game could cause France problems.

France will be a huge test, but fingers crossed they'll pick Michalak again and have him kicking for goal, and if possible, not play Bastereud either. The key for Scotland will be to get ahead if possible early doors, and get that French crowd on their backs.

[reallybored]

I only see them winning the tournament if they continue improvement for a couple of years......This tournament though was too soon for it.

Long term this team has the potential to develop into a top tier side; the age profile is pretty good with a mix of experience and youth, they've got the basic ingredients and there are a handful of possibly top class players in the team.

Do you read posts before replying?

Wouldn't make too many changes for France, who knows what to expect from them so I'd prefer to stick with continuity. If Gray's out it's a lose but Kellock did well enough and it gives Gilchrist a chance on the bench. The arguement grows for Barclay's inclusion but I've enjoyed Harley's impact. Weir did enough to keep the jersey in my book, want to see Dunbar involved but would probably stick with Lamont to begin with.

Hogg, Maitland, Lamont, Scott, Visser, Weir, Laidlaw, Beattie, Brown, Harley, Kellock, Hamilton, Murray, Ford, Grant

MacArthur, Welsh, Cross, Gilchrist, Barclay, Prygos, Jackson, Dunbar

If we play out of our skin and don't make stupid mistakes, and an element of them not turning up at 100%, then I think we've got a chance.

Oops, sorry Morgannwg...... i imagine we'll get hammered.

[Imperialbigdave]

This appears to have been an attempt at a scotland-post-mortem thread, however a few welsh posters have come on expecting the focus to be on wales, or at least 50-50. While everyone is welcome, and we will obviously consider the welsh performance, if youve been on this forum for any length of time, you'll surely have noticed that we have one of these threads after every Scotland loss. We create the threads for us to discuss from a Scottish perspective. Again, youre welcome to join in regardless of where youre from, but just know what to expect if you do.

If you want a more balanced discussion, use the match thread.

[100%beefy]

Scotland: time to get back in your box.

[Morgannwg]

I said earlier and I've said a few times today I think Scotland will beat France. You would also do NH rugby a great service condemning France to the spoon (because Italy will also beat Ireland).

[TJ1]

So - Whats the Verdict on Weir?

[Shifty]

Ok so a thread on constructive criticism of Scotland.

Basically last year you dominated games but didn't score points, this year you scored points but rarely get the ball.

The bottom line for me is the same as always, you don't have enough quality players to mount a serious offensive to beat the better 6 Nations teams, you can only cause problems provided other teams have an off day.

For me Scottish rugby can be summed up by their results against Wales, played 11 lost 10! Wales are an up and down team, yet always seem to beat Scotland regardless. In truth this should not be the case, historically Wales and Scotland is a 50/50 game.

You basically need 4 professional teams, because 2 isn't working for you. Secondly you have little depth compared to the other teams and too many of your top players play away from Scotland, so basically your more prone to injuries and burn out, than Wales or Ireland.

I know Scottish supporters kind of get cheesed off when I post about them, but I just don't see Scottish rugby moving forward, you get a win and then you get excited and then Scotland falls flat on it's face as always. To me your Wales in the 90's. Always looking for the light at the end of the tunnel, but to get there running into a mine field where you get both legs blown off. You need to get things right off the field to get them right on it for Scotland.

[GLove39]

Let's face it, you ambushed Australia too. Again, I don't know why it gets brought up all the time as Scotland's wins v Tri Nations etc mean diddly usually come 6 Nations time.

Oh, did Australia not get told about the match?

That's exactly what happened. We told them they had won a "GIGANTIC YACHT" and they would need to turn up in person to claim their prize (oh and bring there boots)

Funniset thing I've read on here for a while

[GLove39]

So - Whats the Verdict on Weir?

I thought he did pretty well. I'd like to see him attack more, but the Welsh were up very quickly. Hopefully by reuniting the killers B's we can get some quick ball so he can get the backline moving.
Kicking wise maybe a little bit to much of it, although had one very nice touch finder.

Loved his chip kick, hack on & chase during the first half. Tremendous bit of play and a real shame the pack let him down big time and ballsed up the 5m scrum.

[bsando]

I know everyone would love to see Barclay back in, but I would like to see Roddy grant getting a go. I say this because we have rennie and Barclay who are both well capped. Give Roddy grant a few games and he may well turn out to be equally as potent. That means three good options at 7 rather than just two and an out of position Kelly brown. I think Johnson really missed a good opportunity there.h

Weir looked good in my view. His kicking was much better than Jackson and I think if Jackson had been playing we would have lost by a lot more. Weir needs more game time though and I think him and heathcote should be chosen for France game.

Beattie has looked good this tournament despite having little ball. He carried well yesterday and when he came off our scrum looked even worse. No offence to Wilson, he is class player too.

Looks like Swindon will be on bench next week really looking forward to seeing him get a cap. He has been epic for Glasgow. But I hope big rich gets better soon.

[RubyGuby]

Scotland need to be patient, they have the makings of a good side, however much of the recent psychological elevation from their passionate fans is from seeing the likes of Maitland, Hogg, Visser and some decent half backs - Without a platform these pretty boys become superfluous. Get yourself the biggest meanest 8 forwards who can play consistenly and get the balance of the back row sorted. I love watching Jim Hamilton but you want consistency and after being bigged up after a towering performance against Ireland he was pretty anonomous yesterday. There's room for optimism but a little realism to go alongside will help. Get that platform right and then you can reach the next table - Good luck

[RDW]

bsando - Grant is out injured for the rest of the season...

I'd like SJ to be brave and bring some new guys in, because we really have nothing to lose! We're not gonna be bottom, we're not gonna win it - what is there to play for?

Saying that away to France who are likely to be rampantly looking for their first win might not be the best place to blood new players, but what's the worst that can happen!

[cakeordeath]

I think him and heathcote should be chosen for France game.

Just watched highlights of the Harlequin Bath game and it looked as if Heathcote played well.I think he should be brought in, give rhubarb some time off

[Heuer27]

We seem to have forgotten Peter Horne . Before he broke his finger he was going to start at 12 and I'm not sure that still shouldn't be the case. He can distribute well he's a heavy tackler and a great open field runner. He's been playing well for Glasgow this season too.
Matt Scott has not really shown up in the last couple of games TBH and a Horne and Dunbar midfield could do some damage.
I would also like to see Greg Laidlaw let the 10 do his job. He is a great player but seems to want to control the game from the 9 position. He's still playing like a 10 instead of concentrating on getting clean quick ball to Weir. Pyrgos seemed to light up the game when he came on against Ireland and we need Laidlaw to play more like that.
We need to get a scavenger in the pack and start to compete at the breakdown. The coaches have to decide how we play. Fast aggressive mobile pack getting quick ball to the backs or big heavy lumbering set piece pack and ten man rugby. There is no point in having a back line for the former and a pack for the latter. Just my 2p worth

[Guest]

Let's face it, you ambushed Australia too. Again, I don't know why it gets brought up all the time as Scotland's wins v Tri Nations etc mean diddly usually come 6 Nations time.

Oh, did Australia not get told about the match?

That's exactly what happened. We told them they had won a "GIGANTIC YACHT" and they would need to turn up in person to claim their prize (oh and bring their boots)

*Edit* spelling

Is that the best you can offer? Whilst the latter reply is funny, it hardly disproves my point raised, A lot of people use ambush as a term (if you wish you can google Scotland ambush Australia rugby and you will see it used in different rugby articles). You get the point anyway. You did have everything in your favour that day and did another job on a team by kicking your goals and not scoring tries (pretty similar to the Ireland game funnily enough).

Whilst some of you Scots are keen to keep this thread all about Scotland, again I'll ask how saying Scotland don't deserve 10-12 Lions isn't related to Scotland or yesterdays game?

[George Carlin]

Okay, Risca - you seem to be utterly unable to let this go, so let's try this.

Find me a recent entry from a Scottish poster which specifies clearly (a) that on beating Australia we considered ourselves the bestest team everest and/or (b) that there "should be 10-12 Scottish Lions". You won't be able to, because they don't exist.

Nonetheless, I am assuming that your Begbie-like vitriol is rooted in something other than what seems to be an overwhelming superiority complex. So enthral us with your acumen. I live in hope that one day Turd Polishing will be an Olympic sport.

[cakeordeath]

[
Is that the best you can offer? Whilst the latter reply is funny, it hardly disproves my point raised, A lot of people use ambush as a term (if you wish you can google Scotland ambush Australia rugby and you will see it used in different rugby articles).

I know English is an imprecise language. So which of these definitions fits your statement.

am·bush
1. The act of lying in wait to attack by surprise.
2. A sudden attack made from a concealed position.
3.
a. Those hiding in order to attack by surprise.
b. The hiding place used for this.
4. A hidden peril or trap.

[Guest]

Going that off topic are we cake? I take it you used the same dictionary to correct your spelling mistake too? Like I said, it's commonly used by rugby writers as proven by my google point.

[cakeordeath]

How am I going off-topic? You replied to me directly and I am answering. YOU used the term, and I quote "Let's face it, you ambushed Australia too." So I am asking YOU which definition fits?

[cakeordeath]

Actually, I don't care what you think. I am going to block you, so answer if you wish, but I am not going to see it. Sorry GC for dragging this thread down

[Guest]

Okay, Risca - you seem to be utterly unable to let this go, so let's try this.

Find me a recent entry from a Scottish poster which specifies clearly (a) that on beating Australia we considered ourselves the bestest team everest and/or (b) that there "should be 10-12 Scottish Lions". You won't be able to, because they don't exist.

Nonetheless, I am assuming that your Begbie-like vitriol is rooted in something other than what seems to be an overwhelming superiority complex. So enthral us with your acumen. I live in hope that one day Turd Polishing will be an Olympic sport.

You know absolutely nothing about me. I am married to a Scot and have friends who are Scottish. Why would I need to have an overwhelming superiority complex? Nice try though. I can only hope said Scottish wife and friends aren't as sensitive as you guys if people dare criticise Scottish rugby.

[Guest]

Actually, I don't care what you think. I am going to block you, so answer if you wish, but I am not going to see it. Sorry GC for dragging this thread down

Oh no, please don't block me. What will I do? Are you completely ignorant to the fact that it's used by rugby writers? It's just the same really as saying Scotland robbed Australia (when they didn't literally do that).

You should apologise though aye. At least on this thread I've offered an opportunity to have a discussion on Scottish rugby. Sorry it doesn't fit into your agenda.

[Guest]

https://www.606v2.com/t41065-your-lions-squad-38-player#1883550

Thread with 12 Scottish Lions on there.

[DrTreasure]

We seem to have forgotten Peter Horne . Before he broke his finger he was going to start at 12 and I'm not sure that still shouldn't be the case. He can distribute well he's a heavy tackler and a great open field runner. He's been playing well for Glasgow this season too.
Matt Scott has not really shown up in the last couple of games TBH and a Horne and Dunbar midfield could do some damage.
I would also like to see Greg Laidlaw let the 10 do his job. He is a great player but seems to want to control the game from the 9 position. He's still playing like a 10 instead of concentrating on getting clean quick ball to Weir. Pyrgos seemed to light up the game when he came on against Ireland and we need Laidlaw to play more like that.
We need to get a scavenger in the pack and start to compete at the breakdown. The coaches have to decide how we play. Fast aggressive mobile pack getting quick ball to the backs or big heavy lumbering set piece pack and ten man rugby. There is no point in having a back line for the former and a pack for the latter. Just my 2p worth

I think you make a really valid point Heuer. I personally am in favour of the "fast aggressive mobile pack getting quick ball to the backs" option and don't see Hamilton having a role in this. We need men who can get to the breakdown quickly to secure the ball though that will rely on not losing anything in the set piece which is where Hamilton is effective. Personally I would like to see Harley given consideration in the second row. He offers a lot more around the park in workrate than the likes of Hamilton, is useful at the lineout and is experienced there a good example being last years A win against the saxons. I just feel we have players who offer more as backrow options but value his tackle ethic and his braveheart esq atitude.

I also agree that Horne needs to be given consideration but think that the summer tour is more likely to be the opportunity for him to show his worth, he is a talented player (goal kicking aside!). I'm not sure we can criticise Scott too much as he hasnt been given the ball in the last two games. Against Italy he played very well as we passed it and played with confidence. I also agree about Laidlaw needing to show more faith in whats outside him and distributing with more speed around the park. This relies on the forwards securing ball for him, far too many times he was needing to do this himself yesterday.

I like Weir as a player, he has a good all round game and importantly has a self confidence that Jackson lacks and is so desperately needed to be a successful international 10. I thought he did well yesterday in difficult conditions and his chip and break was a rare moment of creative spark and endevour. I do, though, think Heathcote should be given a chance to show what he's got (i thought he looked good when the A team beat the saxons) with a view to seeing who is going to be the better long term option. Maybe from the bench in Paris? Contnuity at 9,10,12 and 13 is key and we need to look to develop that over the next 12 months with the right players picked on merit with a view to unlocking the dangerous back 3 that we now have.

[Guest]

Also where did I suggest that this happened?

"Find me a recent entry from a Scottish poster which specifies clearly (a) that on beating Australia we considered ourselves the bestest team everest"

I didn't did I? Now I'll show you why I even mentioned that game in the first place.

"And then in the summer, you lost all three against Australia. We beat them, we beat the team Australia selected but you couldn't. If our players so much worse than yours, how could that have possibly have happened."

I guess you're all a little wound up and I get that, but I am not a wum, nor have I done anything other than discuss Rugby on this thread (until this descended into a Scotland v myself thread).

[reallybored]

Is that the best you can offer? Whilst the latter reply is funny, it hardly disproves my point raised, A lot of people use ambush as a term (if you wish you can google Scotland ambush Australia rugby and you will see it used in different rugby articles). You get the point anyway. You did have everything in your favour that day and did another job on a team by kicking your goals and not scoring tries (pretty similar to the Ireland game funnily enough).

Sorry for trying to win the game, didn't realise it would annoy you so much.

Plus you've only scored one more try than us this year.

(And your four regions have managed 103 tries this term compared to 81 between our two)

[RDW]

This thread has thoroughly depressed me about 606v2.

In fact most of the threads this 6n have thoroughly depressed me about how easily rugby chats descend into arguments like this.

Actually looking forward to the 6n being over so I can get back to moaning about Edinburgh!

[Heuer27]

Watched Heathcote against quins this weekend and he was a bit up and down for me. I would take him on the summer tour and give him some game time there to try and bring him on for next years 6 N.
Was talking to some of the Warriors today and they were quite enthused about Horne at ten although I'm not sure about that.
The style of play needs cementing then pick our team round that. They cannot continue to play anti rugby and expect to win more matches than they lose.
With the players available surely a wider game is more suited to the players at SJ's disposal.

[GLove39]

This thread has thoroughly depressed me about 606v2.

In fact most of the threads this 6n have thoroughly depressed me about how easily rugby chats descend into arguments like this.

Actually looking forward to the 6n being over so I can get back to moaning about Edinburgh!

Ahhh, moaning about Edinburgh the gift that keeps on giving!

[DrTreasure]

I would be more than happy to see Horne as a potential future Scotland 10 given his efforts there against Ulster. With Laidlaw doing the goalkicking which was far and away Horne's biggest downfall that day he has the other skills and confidence to do a job there. I thought him, dunbar and bennett at 10,12,13 showed a lot of promise for the future and I personally prefer Dunbar as a 12. The sooner he is given international experience the better. It will be interesting to see if Horne is able to get much game time for Glasgow at 10.

PS are there other forum sites available that allow intelligent, constructive rugby discussion?!

[Morgannwg]

Is that the best you can offer? Whilst the latter reply is funny, it hardly disproves my point raised, A lot of people use ambush as a term (if you wish you can google Scotland ambush Australia rugby and you will see it used in different rugby articles). You get the point anyway. You did have everything in your favour that day and did another job on a team by kicking your goals and not scoring tries (pretty similar to the Ireland game funnily enough).

Sorry for trying to win the game, didn't realise it would annoy you so much.

Plus you've only scored one more try than us this year.

(And your four regions have managed 103 tries this term compared to 81 between our two)

reallybored, you're the one descending this into a bickering thread by mentioning that. Those stats look completely irrelevant to counter what I and Rev have said. Just saying.

[Heuer27]

This thread is supposed to be about where Scotland go from here.
There is a lions thread that you have successfully identified which may be a better place for you to continue your discussion.

Dr T Horne could be a 10 but I'm not sure he would be successful at international level. I know he has played there throughout the age groups though.
With Jackson and Weir ahead of him at Glasgow his opportunities would be limited to games where they are on Scotland duty.
I think Dunbar is a better 12 too. If Ansbro comes back the same player the 13 jersey would be his until Bennett proves himself. It's great to be able to talk about real options for an exciting Scottish back line for the first time in as long as I can remember.

[Morgannwg]

I wasn't talking about the Lions though, my issue was Scots complaining about posts that I felt gave a fair analysis.

[DrTreasure]

I completely agree about feeling better about the Scottish back options than I have for quite some time. I can't imagine we will see Ansbro playing international rugby for quite some time yet. Was gutted when I heard about his injury as am a big fan of his style and approach to rugby and would love to see him back playing. I hear what you say about Horne, I think Jackson and Weir being at the same club has hampered their development at times and is likely to do the same for Horne. His future probably is in the centre, do you think he can offer more long term than Scott? It really angers me that they brought in Francis to Edinburgh when there are so many young scottish stand offs looking to develop their games, what a waste of money.

[Sponsored content]