par 5s

how often do you go for them in two?

i'll admit to being a bit of a gambler on par 5s. i'll often go for the 2nd shot even if its right on the edge of my ability to get there in 2. surprisingly my poorer scores this year on the 5s have generally occured when 'playing safe'.

It depends on the length of the hole, the inherant danger of going for it in two, the potential cost of cocking it up, the position I find myself off the tee and the need for a birdie, i.e if I need one to make buffer late in the round if it's the last par 5.

In matchplay it obviously depends on whether your partner can get up in two, how far ahead or behind I am or whether it is worth the risk, i.e is there a bailout.

As a matter of interest though I make more birdies on par 5's when I play them strategically to leave my preferred wedge distance.

our par 5s are only 495, 490, 535 and 500 from the back sticks and generally all play downwind. there is trouble, but there are obvious places to miss. for example going for the pin isn't always the sensible option - but aiming down one side of the green might offer a realistic chance at an up and down at worst .. putting at best. i always fancy my chances more with a 30ft 2putt birdie than an up and down from 95 yards. i guess i almost find it almost more critical to get a good tee shot away on these holes.

would you say risk taking can be a part of good course management or is it tantamount to throwing monty's book out of the window?

I see your point then Ban, the par 5's I play at St.Andrews are virtually all reachable in two without too much danger (wind permitting obvously), however my other club has 3 out of 4 par 5's where there is either a lot of danger which outweighs the risk or are too long to reach in two.

Depends on the hole and situation. I'd say it can be part of a course management strategy as long as the risks don't overwhelmingly outweigh the potential gains. I.e Going for a small green where you have to carry 260 yards over water would not be good course management, likewise trying to hit a green in two from distance which has bunkers so penal that you could take two or more shots to get out probably wouldn't be good course management either.

I would define it as good course management to go for a par 5 green in 2 if A) the cost of failure is low and B) the chance of making the shot are high.
If you have doubt, or cannot afford to drop a shot at the hole, going for the green in two wouldn't be prudent.

I hardly ever go for par 5s in two. Principally because we have none on my home course and historically I play them very badly, so best chance of birdie for me is to play it as designed and hope for a pitch / chip and a putt!

As a shorter hitter, reaching in two is not normally on the agenda (I've only ever reached a par5 in two twice - same course on consequetive days). That only happened because it was a particularly short par5 and the course was ROCK hard so plenty of run. Got there with a big drive (by my standards) and a well hit 3 iron that rolled forever (2nd hole at East Dorset if anyone is interested)

Essentially depends on my tee shot! Three of the four par-5s at my track are all reachable for me provided I get a good tee shot away, conditions permitting. The fourth is reachable, easily, but is a sharpish dogleg (l-to-r) round some big trees and therefore needs a good fade with a mid to long iron (not my natural shot) or a huge drive and then a very lofted iron over the trees.

TBH, not played any of them that well recently . Will probably still go for them in future but my problem is trying to thrash a driver off the tee in order to have a chance with the second which has been conspicuous by its failure rate!

Generally it depends on where I am and also the position of the flag on the green. Assuming I get a good tee shot away I'll generally have a crack if it's within range and there isn't water requiring a 260 carry in my way.

The par 5's at my home track are 554, 552 and 482 in length. The first is downhill and generally into or across the wind the 482 uphill and generally down the wind and the 552 plays in the same direction as the 554 but on the level.

Generally I'll have a crack at the longest and the shortest. But the mid-length is probably the toughest to hit or get close to. Reason being that there is OOB all around the green and there are lots of bunkers to fly en route to the hole. To get there you need to be flying it in really.... and that's not the easiest thing to do at that yardage. Particularly as the bunkers go back to about 110 from the front of the green. Horrible yardage to have from inconsistent sand!

My 40-50 yard pitch shots are no doubt one of my strongest points

Definately in comparison to long putts and bunker shots

Ours are 450, 490, 535 and 560

The first 2 ill go for provibdubg ny tee shot is in play, but a massive ditch short of the green and OOB long and right means the 450 yard plays as a 3 shotter for most

When I could play I was pretty good at getting down in two from anywhere around the green. I recall one scratch KO when I chipped in at three holes, it really pea'd off my opponent.
So if a par 5 was in reach I would have a swing at it in the knowledge that I was confident of getting a birdie.
I was never a big hitter but in those days a hole over 500yds was considered a monster :run2:

Ours are all reachable given a following wind. Shortest, at 480ish, is pretty much a par 4 unless into the wind, which is rare, and indeed the layup has more dangers than going for it. The rest are all well over 500 yards, but I've hit all of them in 2 at one time or another. The wind is the main factor, and they are all designed so that big scores are possible - I doubled every one of them today

Only 2 on my course, one short, dogleg and downwind which is really just a long par 4. Anything worse than a 4 feels like a dropped shot. Always go for it in 2 provided I'm not in trouble off the tee as it can be as little as a 7 iron into the green in summer when the wind is blowing.
The other one is back into the prevailing wind but if it's a calm day it is also reachable. Not too much trouble around the green but the hole is 'S' shaped with a tree in the middle of the fairway which may have to be negotiated depending on where you put your drive.

Birdied both of them on Saturday

Really depends on a) how i'm striking the ball, b) the risks from the tee and on the approach and c)where the pin is placed, Our places par 5's vary we have 3 the shortest being 520 the longest 570yds. All reachable dependant on what line you take from the tee, and what direction the winds coming in, e.g our shortest is usually likely to be the one that plays the longest as the approach is all up hill and generally into the wind.

Yet I find the 570yds plays shortest for me provided the wind is at worst a cross wind. I never go for our shortest one in 2 shots, I always use a 3wood off the tee and leave myself about 100yards for my 3rd shot because I will get a good angle at the pin to attack it. Whereas our 570yarder I will aim to cut the dog leg and fly all the bunkers this is a risky option considering the carry is 280yards to do so, but the rewards are hitting the downslope behind the bunkers and gaining anywhere from 40-60yards run on the ball as a result and a mid to short iron into the pin dependant on postion. If I don't make the carry its a fairway bunker shot that i know I can get enough distance on to still make the green in regulation so the gain for me outweighs the risk.

Our other par 5 dog legs LtoR and is a tight drive and aproach so thats the one that requires most though for me to decide on the day what the best strategy is for the day.

Being a mid to high handicapper I've found a good way of playing two of our par 5s. A decent tee shot will leave me around 220 yards out from the green. I used to be tempted with the fairway wood from here but now I just hit 2 x easy gap wedges. Even if the two shots dont split the yardage exactly I still have a similar 3rd shot in to what I played 2nd so the 2nd shot just becomes a dress rehearsal for the 3rd. How often do you get a legitimate practice shot in golf?! Its a very comfortable way to play par 5s and it makes you realise how easy par can be on some par5s. Obviously not ideal for everyone but I've played with plenty of lower handicaps who go for the green in 2 and end up with bogey. Even those who do manage to get birdie are only usually ending up 1 stroke better than me - not counting any strokes I receive!

Try splitting the yardage after your tee shot, or better yet play off the tee accordingly and leave your self a nice yardage to split with 1 club.

I had a great playing lesson recently where i leaned a lot about course management. When we talk about course management, it's generally "defensive" i.e. playing layups, going for the fat bit ofthe green. However, the instructor, on one hole inparticualr, encouraged me to be aggressive. Like some previous posters, he was talking about risk.

It was a par 5 and i'd got a good drive down the centre, with say 240ish to the green. He asked what i intended to do and i "automatically" reached for a 7 iron and said that i was going to lay-up to 70-80 yards. However, he made me look at the hole again, and to consider going for it. He said that i was over analysing the risks, being overly defensive. There was no water, just a couple of greenside bunkers. He pointed out that when considering risk i should look at it 2 ways;

- the risk of being in a bunker, or leaving myself off the green with a short chip
- the risk of losing a ball

He surmised that my decison was too defensive because, given the layout of the hole, it would take an absolute disater shot, 40-50 yards wide either side of my target, to risk losing the ball or leaving an absolute horror shot. That's a 100 yard window. His arguement was that, assuming even a semi decent shot (with a hybrid or 5 wood), at worst i'll be leaving myself inside 30 yards, at best i'd make the green and inbetween i'd hit a bunker. But with any of these scenarios, a par was a very strong possibilty, and a birdie a good chance. He then said that while a 7 iron might get me to 70-80 yards away, but then i still have to rely on hitting a good approach shot and 2 putting for par. For me, from 70-80 yards, i'd birdie about 1 in 20. From around the green, it's probably 1 in 10. If i layup, it means in my head that i'm settling for par. Going for a par 5 green in 2 doesn't mean i'm trying to make eagle, it mean i'm going for a birdie.

Of course, that does all depend on how good your very short game is compared to your medium-short game, but personally i'm in the school that would rather be closer than further away. If you are comfortable playing out of greenside bunkers (as i am), then it's easier to be more agrressive on par 5s as you can use these as legitimate targets.

Anyway, i guess the point is that course management works 2 ways. Be defensive when the time is right, but similarly don't be afraid to have a go. And for me, that decison now comes down to "how bad would this shot have to be for me to lose the ball"?

I hope that made sense!

TEB

it does indeed make sense. However, if I can't reach in 2 I'd rather be 100 yards away with a full wedge in than 30 yards away, particularly if there is anything to negotiate such as water or sand.

I'm having a few issues just now with my chipping

drive4show wrote:TEB

it does indeed make sense. However, if I can't reach in 2 I'd rather be 100 yards away with a full wedge in than 30 yards away, particularly if there is anything to negotiate such as water or sand.

I'm having a few issues just now with my chipping

Bloody liar! You were up and down more often than a scaffolder over the weekend!

LJ

Yes had a few good'uns but still have the right hand trying to overtake the left at the moment. Confidence is gone, once it comes back I'm expecting to go low on a regular basis

drive4show wrote:LJ

Yes had a few good'uns but still have the right hand trying to overtake the left at the moment. Confidence is gone, once it comes back I'm expecting to go low on a regular basis

You are clearly unbalanced physically. Develop the left forearm with more exercise in order to resist the power of that popeye like right hand.

LondonJonnyO wrote:
You are clearly unbalanced physically. Develop the left forearm with more exercise in order to resist the power of that popeye like right hand.

I have absolutely no idea what you mean

Back to the serious side of things.

Par 5's are often designed with a specific lay up point in mind. From that position (if you have the ability to identify it) you will have a very open shot to the green and usually the flag. In addition the green will often be shaped to take a shot from that lay up area more readily than it will from the driving area. This all depends on the length of the hole of course.

our 4th hole [490yd par 5] has a burn running across the fairway about 110 yards short of the green centre. this tends to be the obvious lay up if going for it in 3 - the closer you get to the burn the flatter the lie. otherwise you'll be playing of a surface sloping down and pitching into an elevated green. the burn only comes into play if your going for it in 2 if you duff it real bad. the best landing area from long distance is short right of the green as you tend to get a friendly kick up the slope toward the middle of the green. however there's a greenside bunker perfectly positioned to gobble up anything fractionally right. its a great risk/reward hole, fantastic in matchplay - we won it once with an eagle nett albatross vs an eagle in 4bbb. the other team were pretty peed off.

since i picked up my tileist hybrid a couple of years ago, i go for far more par 5s. the reason being that it has a much lower flight (in my hands at any rate) than my long irons, so i'm far less worried about the fifeness "breeze" wafting a long shot a long way off target.

teb's post was excellent and something i'll be pondering as i hack my way around gullane with the guys next weekend!