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England under 20's into world cup final - world number 1 in 4 years time?

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TheGreyGhost
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England under 20's into world cup final - world number 1 in 4 years time? Empty England under 20's into world cup final - world number 1 in 4 years time?

Post by wrfc1980 Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:50 am

Congratulations on the England under 20 team on making the world cup final. I honestly believe that within the next 4 years England could become the number 1 side in the world. There seems to be a glut of young exciting talent getting regular game time for their premiership clubs and who will start making inroads into the England setup. A young spine is alreayd forimg in the likes of Flood, Youngs, Ashton, Foden, Croft, Wood, Hartley, Cole etc. These guys are going to be around for years to come and already making waves on the international setup. The Saxons are bursting at the seams with youngsters and from the looks of the under 20's there are some truely special players in the likes of Ford, Kvesic etc.

good luck Endland against the baby blacks!!

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Post by emack2 Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:14 am

Maybe,but I bet that the All Blacks will still be number one.

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Post by robbo277 Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:37 am

Hopefully we can produce a team that can regularly win against all opposition, but we're a way away from that at the moment.

There are some good players looking to come through, Ford and Farrell could have a long battle for the 10 shirt and we have some exciting backs to come in such as Daly and Wade. 9's a slight problem, but we've got young 9s around the first team squad who are all and talented. The forwards are strong and dynamic, I like the look of Vunipola, Launchbury, Kvesic and Gray in particular.

Not all these players will make it into the first team, but I really hope that a few of these players can come in over the next 4-5 years and make a big impact.

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Post by Notch Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:44 am

You should wait until you see the Baby Blacks before making such predictions! The conveyor belt of talent shows no sign of letting up.
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Post by Cymroglan Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:53 am

You also find that certain players reach a peak at a certain age and don't develop any further.
Welsh player Dan Biggar is one I can think of who seems to have slowed down dramatically in his rugby development.

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Post by HammerofThunor Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:58 am

So England have been battered by the Baby Blacks over the last few years so they could be no. 1? Maybe no. 2

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Post by welshy824 Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:30 am

as a welsh fan this hurts to say but there is no doubt that england are on the rise, playing much better rugby compared to the go for penalties, drop kicks style from a few years ago, i dont think england could get number 1, i think 3rd is the best that any NH team can acomplish realistically, all blacks are just awesome and Aus and SA are no pushovers.

and also too many variable, ashton could get injured doing his swan dive or drop the ball while doing it and never get picked again (would server the little oh dear right Wink but as a NH it would be good to see ANY NH team compete at the top.

(with any luck it will be us welsh but good luck to england in the final, at least get a few points against the baby blacks)

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Post by nganboy Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:43 am

If it takes 4 years after getting into a JWC final to become world number 1 then NZ vs England 2008 38-3
NZ vs England 2009 44-28
NZ vs Australia 2010 62-17
NZ vs England 2011 ?

England could be the world number 1 next year.
The fact that NZ has won it the last few years might suggest we will be no 1 for the next few years.
The fact that SA hasn't made the finals suggests that little can be read into any relationship between JWC and senior international domination
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Post by NewTraditionalHaka Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:51 pm

It's not about the pool of player talent, it's how they are coached and managed. England has always had potential in it's players to match and beat the best in the world.

I really don't care what's going on in the U20's - it's what happens to them afterwards that matters. Tell me what's happening to the pool of coaching talent, tell me what's happening to structure that will make England successful in the future but don't tell me we have some great youngsters coming through. We've always had that.

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Post by geoff998rugby Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:00 pm

Getting 3/4/5 outstanding players out of any one year is key.

The team as a whole being good does not translate iinto a future top International side

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Post by Boyne Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:06 pm

nganboy wrote:If it takes 4 years after getting into a JWC final to become world number 1 then NZ vs England 2008 38-3
NZ vs England 2009 44-28
NZ vs Australia 2010 62-17
NZ vs England 2011 ?

England could be the world number 1 next year.
The fact that NZ has won it the last few years might suggest we will be no 1 for the next few years.
The fact that SA hasn't made the finals suggests that little can be read into any relationship between JWC and senior international domination

Yes, blatently obvious, but, you are talking to a brick wall mate. Better off smiling, nodding and agreeing with them.....

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Post by MBTGOG Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:14 pm

There are some good players in this English side but a lot of their play still seems very robotic. It's a criticism I've had of the U20s for the past few seasons and one that still hasn't changed.

Also, something that still hasn't been found at this level is decent centres.

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Post by yappysnap Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:40 pm

MBTGOG wrote:There are some good players in this English side but a lot of their play still seems very robotic. It's a criticism I've had of the U20s for the past few seasons and one that still hasn't changed.

Also, something that still hasn't been found at this level is decent centres.

I don't know MBTGOG Elliot Daly looks pretty good at 13, he had a very good run vs South Africa. Not sure why he wasn't playing against France though.

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Post by MBTGOG Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:48 pm

yappy,

He was injured I believe.

Anyway, we'll see what happens to him but English rugby doesn't seem to be the best of breeding grounds when it comes to centre.

Tuilagi is the only one in recent times who looks the real deal.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:51 pm

I think Trinder deserves a mention in the future England centre stakes. Seems to have an eye for the try line that lad - something that's hard to coach.

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Post by Eustace H Plimsoll Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:58 pm

I actually think there are a fair few promising young English centres about who have come through the U20s – just none who have made it to the top level yet. But we have only really stepped up our game in age-group rugby in the last few years, so perhaps it's to be expected that they're only now starting to push for places in the first 15.

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Post by Cumbrian Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:59 pm

I've said on the past that I think a lot of these guys will make it at Premiership level (I stand by this) but it is unlikely that a large number of them will go further. There are a few that I believe will have a very good chance. If I had to say who I believe will/could internationals (or in the Saxons) in a couple of years time:

George Ford: Some people point out his size as a barrier to success, but I think he has the frame to grow and fill out (and is only 18). He already has the skill, I can't wait to see how he turns out in the next few years.

Joe Launchbury: Seems to be very in the mould of the modern lock. He is strong in the tight and the set piece, but also has a very good degree of athleticism. He's still only twenty and will probably fill out a little more in the next couple of years ago. Could be a wrecking ball in attack in the coming years. He is going to be Wasps' replacement for Simon Shaw for many years to come. After years of suffering with the likes of Borthwick and having to persevere with Shaw past his prime the English SR is developing nicely with the likes of Lawes, Attwood, Kitchener and Gaskell (There are plans to bulk him up in the coming years).

Owen Farrell: He has all the makings of a very very good premiership player, but also has the potential to go to the next level. He hasn't showed his best in the JRWC but he's had a long season and I'm willing to cut him a lot of slack.

Mako Vunipola: He is a good scrummager and a massive wrecking ball in the loose. He needs refined, but Sarries have got themselves a good player here.

Henry Thomas: He's already a cornerstone of the Sale pack. He is good in the scrum but also excellent in the loose and is in the mould of the modern prop, who is more athletic.

Matt Kvesic: England are crying out for good openside flankers, especially with Steffon Armitage leaving the country, Lewis Moody and Hendre Fourie getting on and Tom Rees being continually crocked.

Alex Gray: He's been a leader throughout the age grades and has the size and skill. I believe a lot will depend upon where he goes at the end of the season

Eliott Daly: He is a more traditional outside centre who tries to beat his man with pace on the outside arc. He is very quick and strong, but also has great hands (not that he has shown it at times in this tournament). He is already getting game time for Wasps and I expect to see him a lot more next season.
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Post by bedfordwelsh Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:05 pm

Just out of interest/curiosity how many of the curren squad have got Premiership experience or how many are likely to get exposure to Premiership rugby.

Not wanting to get into a qualification argument but there does seem to be a hell of a lot of foreigners in some of the English Premiership teams.

Will this halt the progress of some of these young lads?
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Post by Cumbrian Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:11 pm

MBTGOG wrote:yappy,

He was injured I believe.

Anyway, we'll see what happens to him but English rugby doesn't seem to be the best of breeding grounds when it comes to centre.

Tuilagi is the only one in recent times who looks the real deal.

It's hard to argue with that considering we are currently contemplating the choice of two crocked Kiwis at inside centre. But the situation is changing. The post World Cup Six Nations will be an exciting times in the English back line because some things will have to change. Tindall and Flutey are getting on. Flutey will be 32, Tindall will be 33 and Hape will be 31. I'd be very surprised if at least one of them didn't retire after the world cup. All three have had injury issues and/or form issues.

There is a growing pool of centres who are proving themselves at Premiership level who will be itching to get a crack at international level.

Anthony Allen
Luther Burrell
Billy Twelvetrees
Jordan Turner-Hall
Brad Barritt
Owen Farrell

Adam Powell
Manu Tuilagi
Dominic Waldouck
Elliot Daly
Henry Trinder
Jonny May
George Lowe
Jon Joseph
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Post by MBTGOG Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:14 pm

Cumbrian,

I think that alongside Ford, the one that English fans should be most excited about is Henry Thomas. To be the cornerstone of a Premiership club's scrum at just 19 and do really well is incredible.


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Post by MBTGOG Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:20 pm

Cumbrian,

I obviously don't watch as much English rugby as you do but I think looking at it from the outside, I'm not overly convinced by a lot of those guys you have listed.

From those you have put down, I'd say Twelvetrees, Trinder and Tuilagi are the ones that look like to me that will be good at international level while Tuilagi looks like the only one that will excel at that level.

I suppose at the moment, we're kind of blessed with centres in Ireland, that's why I am a bit more critical of what ye have. On the flip side of that, what you have in the front row stocks is very encouraging for your future.


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Post by robbo277 Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:36 pm

I wouldn't put Farrell as a 12. I'd say with Wilkinson probably leaving the England set-up in the World Cup (as he's signed an extension with Toulon), Flood and Hodgson will be the two 10s in the senior EPS, and I would have Farrell and Clegg in the Saxons, with Ford still in the Under 20s. I don't think we are particularly blessed with 10s beyond the top 3, and we seem to have 'lost' quite a number of promising 10s (Cipriani, Geraghty, Lamb, Barkley), however I suppose there is also Freddie Burns, and it will be interesting to see how he goes with Gloucester.

I can't help but feel Banahan will get more game-time at 12 and if successful he could be around for up to 10 more years (he's 24 now), but I feel he'll be more of a stop-gap option. Long-term I'd like to see Twelvetrees there, as I think he's got a bit of Will Greenwood about him. Good distribution, elusive runner and not a small guy either (according to wiki there is an inch between them and nothing in terms of weight). He's only young, but he seems like he's got a good head on his shoulders, and hopefully he can fulfill his potential.

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Post by yappysnap Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:37 pm

Ireland have been a lot better at giving their centres big game experience, i'd say we'll know a lot more about ours after next season at the moment though there are a few who would all do well with a run in the Eng team:

Allan
Tuilagi
Waldouck
Barritt
Trinder

So not too shabby.

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Post by MBTGOG Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:43 pm

yappy,

Yeah but to get a run, only two of those can play and you won't know about the other three.


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Post by Cumbrian Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:50 pm

MBTGOG wrote:Cumbrian,

I obviously don't watch as much English rugby as you do but I think looking at it from the outside, I'm not overly convinced by a lot of those guys you have listed.

From those you have put down, I'd say Twelvetrees, Trinder and Tuilagi are the ones that look like to me that will be good at international level while Tuilagi looks like the only one that will excel at that level.

I suppose at the moment, we're kind of blessed with centres in Ireland, that's why I am a bit more critical of what ye have. On the flip side of that, what you have in the front row stocks is very encouraging for your future.


Yes, you are correct. I wouldn't expect all of those guys to be capable of the step up, but we don't really need them to. At this point, even if only one of them makes it to prove their worth on the international stage I'd be ecstatic. I am of the opinion that successive English teams have carried their centres and have played despite them. If somebody can come in and actually consistently excel in the role, I'd be more than happy.
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Post by robbo277 Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:57 pm

Cumbrian

I agree. I'd say Riki Flutey for 5 games in the 2009 Six Nations was the best centre we've had since Greenwood. Flutey scored 4 tries, the team scored 16 (and only one of them came from a forward) and all that despite the fact that Andy Goode started the tournament as first choice fly-half!

Tindall is solid in defence, and one of his strengths here is organising the defensive line, but in terms of attack Tindall doesn't offer all that much.

Other than that, Hape, Flutey (for the rest of the time), Noon, Hipkiss, Tom May and Mathew Tait have all been tried recently and none of them are all together too inspiring.

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Post by MBTGOG Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:03 pm

Cumbrian,

Considering the context, I can see why you'd be happy with that. But, you should really be looking for two good centres who compliment each other.

The big problem is at inside centre where a lot of people are tipping Twelvetrees yet he still isn't getting a game at his club.


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Post by Cumbrian Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:11 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:Just out of interest/curiosity how many of the curren squad have got Premiership experience or how many are likely to get exposure to Premiership rugby.

Not wanting to get into a qualification argument but there does seem to be a hell of a lot of foreigners in some of the English Premiership teams.

Will this halt the progress of some of these young lads?


The answer is a lot of them have had premiership experience. Not all have had a huge amount though. I won’t go through the whole squad, but this should give you an idea.

Alex Gray: 8 appearances
Henry Thomas: 14 appearances
Eliott Daly: 4 appearances
Joe Launchbury: 7 appearances
Christian Wade: 2 appearances
Manu Tuilagi: 20 appearances
Owen Farrell: 17 appearances
Jon Joseph: 14 appearances (was the leagues top try scorer before his injury.)

This includes young forwards too, which is why English fans are getting excited about this group. You just don’t see forwards this young in the premiership.
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Post by HammerofThunor Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:22 pm

Bedfordwelsh, there's about 65% of the squads that are EQ. That's about 10 EQ players for 15 and 15 in the 23.

Even given the number of foreigners I don't see how that's relevant to young players getting there chance. It would just be an EQ player rather than NEQ blocking their space. Of course the EQ isn't as good as the NEQ but that would result in a general drop in performance.

It's got more to do with the quality of players ahead rather their nationality.

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Post by Mr Thunder Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:56 pm

Anybody who has watched the u20s will have noticed that NZ are a step beyond all else. I can't see England getting close to be honest.

As for a few years time. NZ will still be the team to beat (but you can say that every world).

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Post by Mr Thunder Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:58 pm

On a side note. The future for Welsh rugby looks awful. Yes the all blacks are fantastic but Wales should not lose by over 90 points to them. Thats the kind of scoreline Japan should have against NZ not Wales.

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Post by Geordie Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:22 am

Why is George Lowe continuously overlooked....i think he has played a big part in Harlequins performances this season. Crackin young player...

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Post by Cumbrian Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:00 am

robbo277 wrote:Cumbrian

I agree. I'd say Riki Flutey for 5 games in the 2009 Six Nations was the best centre we've had since Greenwood. Flutey scored 4 tries, the team scored 16 (and only one of them came from a forward) and all that despite the fact that Andy Goode started the tournament as first choice fly-half!

Tindall is solid in defence, and one of his strengths here is organising the defensive line, but in terms of attack Tindall doesn't offer all that much.

Other than that, Hape, Flutey (for the rest of the time), Noon, Hipkiss, Tom May and Mathew Tait have all been tried recently and none of them are all together too inspiring.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I wish during all those years that they were faffing around with centre combinations they had just picked a pair of youngish guys and stuck with them even if it had gone wrong from time to time.


Maybe:

Anthony Allen and Matthew Tait

Or

Dom Wauldock and Adam Powell

Or

Anthony Allen and Jon Clarke

Or

Brad Barritt and Adam Powell

I know it’s an oversimplification and there were form and injury issues throughout those years. But we could have had two relatively experienced centres by now who aren’t falling apart physically or just completely duff. People will disagree with choices, but I’m wondering how it could be any worse than going into a World Cup with such doubts hanging over our centres.
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Post by TheGreyGhost Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:03 am

wrfc1980 wrote:Congratulations on the England under 20 team on making the world cup final. I honestly believe that within the next 4 years England could become the number 1 side in the world. There seems to be a glut of young exciting talent getting regular game time for their premiership clubs and who will start making inroads into the England setup. A young spine is alreayd forimg in the likes of Flood, Youngs, Ashton, Foden, Croft, Wood, Hartley, Cole etc. These guys are going to be around for years to come and already making waves on the international setup. The Saxons are bursting at the seams with youngsters and from the looks of the under 20's there are some truely special players in the likes of Ford, Kvesic etc.

good luck Endland against the baby blacks!!

England U20's look like a good side. Although I was particularly impressed at how the BBs overcame a determined looking Oz unit yesterday in very difficult looking conditions, by playing such a controlled tight game. They seemed to remain composed even when they were being penalised out of the game with some fairly questionable breakdown and knock-on rulings going against them. I can't see England being as effective or passionate at the breakdown, or getting as much luck from the ref (although I could be wrong). It was unbelievably greasy, and if played in drier conditions I can't see past the strike power of the BBs out wide.

The question for England will be how many of these young guys get a shot in the England senior side. With an alternate route into the senior team being opened up for ex-league, Maori and contracted club stars from the SANZAR region it might take a dictate from the RFU's performance office to give these guys a chance.

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Post by majesticimperialman Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:44 am

GG.

The question for England will be how many of these young guys get a shot in the England senior side. With an alternate route into the senior team being opened up for ex-league, Maori and contracted club stars from the SANZAR region it might take a dictate from the RFU's performance office to give these guys a chance..
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I thought it was too good to be true. You giving England any compliment at all.

You had to bring in to it players that qualifie for England citicenship.

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Post by DaveM Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:08 am

The 2009 side was very good, and has bred a lot of AP players. I'd say this side is about as good. As I said elsewhere if we can stay within 20 points of NZ then we'll have done fine.

In terms of strength in depth:

10 is fine (Flood, Farrell, Burns means 3 of the top 4 this season will have youngish English FH's, and then Clegg is coming along ok and Ford looks a fine prospect).

13: Looking good. Tuilagi, Trinder and Daly are 3 exciting prospects. I'd like to see JJ given some game time there too for LI. Lowe is like Allan - too small for international rugby, but a decent AP player.

12: Not happy with the strength in deph here. Twelvetrees is the obvious longterm solution, and Banahan is worth a look, but where do we go beyond that? Barritt I guess. Farrell is a FH, but I'd like to see Goode, who spends a lot of time at second receiver, get a run at 12 for someone (probably not Sarries). I would say that Mills has actually looked ok this tournament, and I was very impressed with May when he played IC for Gloucester earlier in the season, but we certainly need some more young English players to make an AP 12 slot their own.

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Post by emack2 Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:36 pm

Hoping for a good match tomorrow,one area that BB`s look vulnerable was at the Scrum.The rest of there game is rock solid not often seen the driving maul of late.
But these Nz lads used it ruthlessly,they have excellent playmakers at 10/12 speed anywhere ,good forwards.
They may or may not be as good as last year,but no side this has got within 30 points of them.They conceded a try in the first few minutes,tightened up and ground a solid Aussie side down.

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Post by Taylorman Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:48 pm

Interesting the comments of the england captain and coach after the France match as to which team they would rather play in the final. A confident answer would have been to say Oz as they were not as strong by a mile in pool play. By saying they dont care when the answer was obvious lacks a little confidence I reckon and it seems a little denial is hiding in there somewhere.


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Post by DaveM Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:15 pm

How would it have been confident to say we'd rather play the weaker side? That would have been basically saying we're worried about playing NZ. It would also have been disrespectful to an Australian side who hadn't yet played NZ. The comments were exactly what you'd expect from a professional sports team.

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Post by Guest Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:54 pm

DaveM wrote:How would it have been confident to say we'd rather play the weaker side? That would have been basically saying we're worried about playing NZ. It would also have been disrespectful to an Australian side who hadn't yet played NZ. The comments were exactly what you'd expect from a professional sports team.
Completely agree with this clap

Taylorman, you've got it the wrong way around (or you're just having a pop!).


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Post by johnpartle Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:47 am

DaveM wrote:13: Looking good. Tuilagi, Trinder and Daly are 3 exciting prospects. I'd like to see JJ given some game time there too for LI. Lowe is like Allan - too small for international rugby, but a decent AP player.

12: Not happy with the strength in deph here. Twelvetrees is the obvious longterm solution, and Banahan is worth a look, but where do we go beyond that? Barritt I guess. Farrell is a FH, but I'd like to see Goode, who spends a lot of time at second receiver, get a run at 12 for someone (probably not Sarries). I would say that Mills has actually looked ok this tournament, and I was very impressed with May when he played IC for Gloucester earlier in the season, but we certainly need some more young English players to make an AP 12 slot their own.


I think JJ getting some decent game time at centre for LI this year is a certainty. Hape & Ansbro will be going to the WC, Bowden will be starting at FH, Tagicakibau & Armitage who provide centre cover will also be at the WC, that only leaves Jonathan Spratt & JJ, with Thompstone, Ojo & Homer as the back three.

He had a terrible season for injuries, but I still think Waldouck will prove himself for England. He covers both centre positions and is a very intelligent, classy footballer (our approximation to Conrad Smith).

At 12, I think Twelvetrees & Barritt are the best answers. JTH stepped back up to the plate again last season, and behind him at Quins, Tom Casson was one of England's best players at last year's JWC.

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Post by TheGreyGhost Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:35 am

On the evidence of today, perhaps number 2 is the best they can hope for. Unless they name a raft more NZ U20's in future England sides.

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Post by majesticimperialman Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:42 am

TheGreyGhost wrote:On the evidence of today, perhaps number 2 is the best they can hope for. Unless they name a raft more NZ U20's in future England sides.

Ha Ha very funny GG.

Very funny indeeed. laughing

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