3/4 handicap allowance; fair or unfair?

First topic message reminder :

there was an article in golf monthly about this, didn't really understand it though.

I think 3/4 handicap is unfair as it favours low handicappers.
i.e: 20 handicapper has to play of 15
4 handicapper has to play off 3

There seems to be a hell of a lot of comps at my club that is 3/4 allowance and the only thing I have ever won (fortnight ago captains night) was off full allowance which resulted in me being cut from 25 to 22.1 due to a great round of 43 pts.

My modus operandi is to have as low a handicap as possible, not to win 8 quid so I won't achieve this by having 3/4 of my handicap taken into consideration as 36 pts (par) would be based on a handicap of 17 or so, so
A. It is very unlikely that I will ever be in contention for prizes
B. get my handicap reduced by a significant level.

The congu guy says in golf monthly that all club comps should be off full handicap 9granted this is the case for medal) but I don't think I have ever played stableford at my club with full allowance.

I may be wide of the mark here and missing something, if so let me know.

N.B I would love to have a handicap of 15 or so and that is my objective for this year

gael, apologies, i've just read somewhere that the hcp limit for ladies is now 36 as per your post. anyone know when that came down from 45 - or is that the girls limit?

I've been rolled over twice in the past couple of months by guys playing of 20 and 21. 14 shots and 15 conceded in knockouts. took both to 18, and lost to pars (with shots).
In neither match did either of them have worse than a gross bogey - and though I played well, they played better! But I'll get 'em next time!!
Those are the rules, though I must admit it does seem very generous. Normally higher handicap players don't lose their shots in an even distribution, which to me offers an advantage in matchplay - but hey ho!! We are lucky to play a game with a tested way of levelling the playing field. I used to play squash, and you know who always won - the best player!

JAS wrote:S_R...."I think most low handicap players feel this way, I don't want to sound elitist or a low handicap golf snob but I just find the whole concept and playing in handicap matches boring so don't care if they get 3/4 or full, fine in a bounce game but I can't be bothered with handicap matchplay.
Hardly any low handicappers at my clubs enter the handicap knockout matchplay competitions."

...a bit defeatist don't you think? Taking a look back through our hcp matchplay singles
2007 a 9 beat a +1 in the final
2008 a scratch beat a 4 in the final
2009 an 8 beat a 7 in the final
2010 an 11 beat another 11 in the final

Hardly fertile ground for high handicappers is it?? Incidentally I was that 9 in 2007 and the 8 in 2009. I'm not saying high handicappers can't do damage on their day but the stats tell you that more often than not, when it gets to the business end of the tournament it's predominately lower guys who contest it.

JAS, I'm not saying that it couldn't go either way, I'm saying that the majority of low handicappers (at least the ones I know) don't pay too much attention to those types of competition and probably don't take them too seriously.
Beating or getting beaten in a handicap matchplay means very little to me. It all seems a bit mickey mouse.
Also your comparison of beating a 7 handicapper when you are off 8 isn't much of a stretch. I don't mind matches where handicaps are that close but as a low player i've really got no interest in playing someone of say 9 and above.

I've no problem playing bounce games with people of all abiliites, but i'm not interested in competing against them in handicap matchplay.

I know an 8 beating a 7 isnt much of a stretch Super. I was just illustrating that it's predominately single figure guys that contest the latter stages and yes it can go either way. I do know what you are saying though about playing a match and having to give shots to a guy who's playing out his skin. Happened to me in the semis last year when one of the 11s went out in 3 under gross to my 1 over = 2 under my hcp but 6 down at the turn.
That's just the twists and turns of matchplay.
I don't care whether it's seen as mickey mouse by the lower guys or not (I don't think the +1 i beat in the 2007 final viewed it as such). If your mindset is right on the flip side can be very satisfying giving high handicappers a good few shots and still beating them, can't see me ever shying away from competition or pretending I'm not interested just because there's the possibility I have to give away a lot of shots....but that's just me.

I think it's just the inconsistency of higher handicaps that irritates me.
I had the misfortune of being paired with two high handicappers last week on the Old Course, one was a 13 handicapper and the other was a 19 handicapper and I found it very disruptive to be constantly looking for their balls, waiting for them to hit two shots before we'd even got to my ball and having them walk back to the tee to play another when their card already resembled a telephone number.
Consequently I played poorly and while it probably showed a weakness in my game that I let it bother me it was not an enjoyable experience that I'd care to repeat.

JAS

I think SR just has an aversion to any sort of competition, probably the type who would only play for money if the odds were stacked in his favour etc.

He is happy hitting it well, even if his score doesn't reflect that, for me, that is just daft!

JD, if I'm hitting it well, the majority of time it means I'm scoring well, however I have on occasion hit the ball poorly and still scored well, which one gives greater satisfaction?

I like scratch competition when the calibre of golfer is high, but I simply don't find it enjoyable to play in a handicap format against hackers.

I assume you havent always been a scratch golfer, so how would you have dealt with someone with your attitude when you were starting out?

JD, I'm perfectly happy to play WITH people of all handicaps, although I prefer not to be paired with them in medals, what I don't particularly enjoy is playing AGAINST them in handicap matchplay. To me it's just dull, and I get no satisfaction from beating anyone, nor do I care if I get beat.
Big difference

SR - is 13 a hacker ????

The 13 handicapper I played with last week certainly was.

I guess you can be as well !

of course I can be, but I have the good grace to either play a provisional, avoid needless delay and keep up with play and not do everything I possibly can do to subconsciously or innocently disrupt my playing partners.

SR,
I heard from a reliable source that you're mince

Some competitor you must be, in addition to being a total joy to play with!!

I'm fine to play with, there is no law about having a set of circumstances in which you prefer to play.

tarka wrote:SR,
I heard from a reliable source that you're mince

tarka

what's a west country boy like you doing using a good scottish word like mince?

Nearly wet myself when I read that

drive4show wrote:

tarka wrote:SR,
I heard from a reliable source that you're mince

tarka

what's a west country boy like you doing using a good scottish word like mince?

Nearly wet myself when I read that

I am Scottish D4S, just havin a wee laugh wi' the boy, pullin' his chain like

super_realist wrote:JD, I'm perfectly happy to play WITH people of all handicaps, although I prefer not to be paired with them in medals, what I don't particularly enjoy is playing AGAINST them in handicap matchplay. To me it's just dull, and I get no satisfaction from beating anyone, nor do I care if I get beat.
Big difference

So in what format precisely are you happy to play with people of all handicaps - texas scramble perhaps.

You really are trying your best to sound like a "low handicap snob"

Nope there certainly isn't a law, which I guess for you is just aswell!

Or no one who is off a handicap above yours, has a BMI of over 12, or is called Shane, will be allowed the privelage of playing in your exhalted company!

Jeez, just got back from lunch (spent chipping & putting btw) and it looks like it's turned into a "let's have a pop at Super day".

To be fair I can actually see where Super is coming from to a point. It can be tedious being paired with a couple of 20+ ers on a windy day if you're actually managing to keep it straight. By the same token if you start roughing it yourself you have a pair of very adept ball searchers to help you

Even though I might feel frustrated through tedium I'd never display it on the course or say anything to put down the higher handicappers. We've all been there and to be honest sometimes it actually feels good to offer them a tip or 2 at the end if you've seen something obviously flawed in what they're doing.

wasn't having a pop at Super, just a laugh. To be honest I can see where he is coming from. I don't like playing five-a-side with Big Chris aka Sumo, cos he is at least 25 stone, marks the seat of my car with his sweatty ring and smells of tinned hot dogs, but he is a mate. On the golf side of things I don't like playing with a fella called Geoff who is 80 odd as he only hits the ball about 15 yards, that and he puts his hand on my knee quite a lot

tarka wrote:wasn't having a pop at Super, just a laugh. To be honest I can see where he is coming from. I don't like playing five-a-side with Big Chris aka Sumo, cos he is at least 25 stone, marks the seat of my car with his sweatty ring and smells of tinned hot dogs, but he is a mate. On the golf side of things I don't like playing with a fella called Geoff who is 80 odd as he only hits the ball about 15 yards, that and he puts his hand on my knee quite a lot

Pure quality! Can I vote this as the best post ever on 606v2?

super_realist wrote:... I don't want to sound elitist or a low handicap golf snob but I just...

...can't help myself.

i love it when s_r prefaces a comment like this. you just know there's a jan moir-esque moment of self-justified intolerance in the offing. this one had me in stitches.

tarka wrote:wasn't having a pop at Super, just a laugh. To be honest I can see where he is coming from. I don't like playing five-a-side with Big Chris aka Sumo, cos he is at least 25 stone, marks the seat of my car with his sweatty ring and smells of tinned hot dogs, but he is a mate. On the golf side of things I don't like playing with a fella called Geoff who is 80 odd as he only hits the ball about 15 yards, that and he puts his hand on my knee quite a lot

brilliant post tarka!

Works both ways in my opinion...

I played a board comp with a 4 and 10 hc, i'm off 15...

Both had terrible starts (for them) the 4 hc 5 over after 5 the 10 hc was 9 over after 5, i was chugging along nicely 4 over after 5... they both were miserable as sin and generally not fun/considerate playing partners for holes 6 and 7 and had basically given up...only when i tripled the 8th did the mood lighten...and giggles start, "what a threesome we are, bunch of wallys, haha bloody ha..."
It was almost like they couldn't enjoy it while one of us could still do well...

Their childish 'woe is me' conduct shouldn't have bothered me but it did and directly affect what had been a good start to the round.

I do find on occasion is better to play with a high handicapper having a bad round than a low in a similar situation as if find on average the high handicapper has the ability to play with a smile on their face more irrespective of how they are playing.

Oh god, here we go again, how long before Godwin's Law is envoked. Simply because you have a view of the sort of player you PREFER to play with you are instantly seen as some sort of Daily Heil reader or a closet Tory.

Preferring not to play against high handicappers is no different from preffering to play with them.
I'm sure just as many people prefer not to play with low handicappers, it's a point of view, not a political persuasion.

As a bit of a hacker I can see why low handicappers would rather play with decent players. Im sure Ive dragged a few players down closer to my level in the past.
Supers right, there is no crime at all in stating the sort of person you'd prefer to play with or the level they play at. He's just being honest.

Tarka - classic!

Regarding some of the other posts, i love it that a 20 handicapper is always wonky and the lower guy is always helping him search and having to put up with it. At the same time no-one wants to play a higher handicapper in the matchplay because they're not willing to give away shots and get beaten. Brilliant!

I read a post the other day, can't remember who it was, saying 'i might be always on the fairway but he's not.........'
The tour average for fairways hit is only 70%ish percent. I bet you even the lowest handicappers on here are pretty much off the fairway as much as they are on

Digs - is that differen to when people state their honest opinion that Americans are insular?

This has turned into one of the most enjoyable thread reads in a long while Tarka smiley faced emoticons and handclaps to your diatribe on your 25 stone 5 a side playing mate whose ringpiece stains your car seat.
I haven't laughed so much since...eh... the 6th tee on Sunday!!

drive4show wrote:

tarka wrote:wasn't having a pop at Super, just a laugh. To be honest I can see where he is coming from. I don't like playing five-a-side with Big Chris aka Sumo, cos he is at least 25 stone, marks the seat of my car with his sweatty ring and smells of tinned hot dogs, but he is a mate. On the golf side of things I don't like playing with a fella called Geoff who is 80 odd as he only hits the ball about 15 yards, that and he puts his hand on my knee quite a lot

Pure quality! Can I vote this as the best post ever on 606v2?

Glad you enjoyed it, I called him big chris to protect his identity. His real name is Chris Hughes

Its all about opinions and debate on here MPB. In fact the only time Super has offended me on here is when he posted something like..."Im sure what you meant to say is...."

I know a Chris Hughes!
But he's not big. We call him Little Chris and he smells of sardines. I'll have to ask him about his ringpiece.......

Exactly Digs
So if Super makes his point then it's fair for others to debate it

MustPuttBetter wrote:I know a Chris Hughes!
But he's not big. We call him Little Chris and he smells of sardines. I'll have to ask him about his ringpiece.......

this sounds like a guy to avoid, sounds like it might be his man sausage that smells

MustPuttBetter wrote:I know a Chris Hughes!
But he's not big. We call him Little Chris and he smells of sardines. I'll have to ask him about his ringpiece.......

s_r, it wasn't so much the point but the style in which it was written which, in most social settings, might be considered a just a tad supercilious.

hey, there we go. you could change your moniker...

ban_bam wrote:gael, apologies, i've just read somewhere that the hcp limit for ladies is now 36 as per your post. anyone know when that came down from 45 - or is that the girls limit?

Nae probs ban_bam. After all, I got the men's h'cap limit wrong! Not sure if the 45 h'cap limit still exists but in any event it didn't apply to comps (by that, I mean the maximum 36 applied instead). Its main purpose was to help beginners get into the way of scoring by starting them off at a h'cap more appropriate to their level of ability.

MPB, I didnt say it wasnt OK for people to debate his point. Just that I agree with it....for once.

tarka wrote:this sounds like a guy to avoid, sounds like it might be his man sausage that smells

His sausage is similar to the ones you get in the cans of beans. Bless him. That's why we call him Little Chris. He's actually 6'2"

gaelgowfer wrote:

ban_bam wrote:gael, apologies, i've just read somewhere that the hcp limit for ladies is now 36 as per your post. anyone know when that came down from 45 - or is that the girls limit?

Nae probs ban_bam. After all, I got the men's h'cap limit wrong! Not sure if the 45 h'cap limit still exists but in any event it didn't apply to comps (by that, I mean the maximum 36 applied instead). Its main purpose was to help beginners get into the way of scoring by starting them off at a h'cap more appropriate to their level of ability.

some european countries start with 54 for men and women, eg germany. far more inclusive and i know that the german golf association run plenty of open events for 36-54 handicappers (split 36-45 and 45-54) exculsively to allow them to play counting rounds and hence improve without feeling the pressure of having to play with...

Apologies then Digs
I assumed by "there is no crime at all in stating....." you thought Super was getting harshly treated by those who viewed the comments as golf snobbery

Nah im sure he can take a bit of stick. He must get loads when he's out doing his UKIP campaigning.

MustPuttBetter wrote:

tarka wrote:this sounds like a guy to avoid, sounds like it might be his man sausage that smells

His sausage is similar to the ones you get in the cans of beans. Bless him. That's why we call him Little Chris. He's actually 6'2"

i'm not very big either, I would liken it in size to an iceland cocktail sausage roll; thats why we don't use the showers at the football park.
That brings me on to the time that he asked if he could get showered and changed at mine as we were going to his ex's birthday party after the footy. He laid all his clothes on the bed in the spare room out before the match. You know the standard issue large chap lumberjack shirt, custom made denims and cheap gold on the bed of the spare room where my missus laid out a towel and a flannel for his comfort. After having a shower it was my turn, I had used the five minute interval wisely to have a bottle of becks and a crafty fag at the back door. When I stepped in the shower the dirty b***d had left the flannel in the bath with a big dirty skid mark down it, to think that I had his schitty rag on my feet makes me still sick now

"some european countries start with 54 for men and women, eg germany. far more inclusive and i know that the german golf association run plenty of open events for 36-54 handicappers (split 36-45 and 45-54) exculsively to allow them to play counting rounds and hence improve without feeling the pressure of having to play with... "

graeme ... what a good idea! It's such a difficult game for adults to take up. Can't help feeling though that how they start off the game is all wrong. Adult beginners shouldn't be encouraged to make a full swing until they have acquired some mastery of how chip the ball.

At least you hadn't run a bath

gaelgowfer wrote:"some european countries start with 54 for men and women, eg germany. far more inclusive and i know that the german golf association run plenty of open events for 36-54 handicappers (split 36-45 and 45-54) exculsively to allow them to play counting rounds and hence improve without feeling the pressure of having to play with... "

graeme ... what a good idea! It's such a difficult game for adults to take up. Can't help feeling though that how they start off the game is all wrong. Adult beginners shouldn't be encouraged to make a full swing until they have acquired some mastery of how chip the ball.

gael, they have to go through a rigorous test of all their golfing abilities before they're given a handicap. ie hit x balls 100yds between the sticks; chip x balls onto the green and hold it; etc, etc. my wife could tell all as she went through it but it also involves a test of the rules and all sorts.

there are no badly behaved golfers in germany (except for those who pay their way into the extortionately fee'd clubs). it's a shame and a miracle tht germany produces any decent golfers. it is the epitome of what we joke that the germans are like!

The point about the 3/4ths of full handicap is that in singles competitions, Stableford scoring favours the higher handicapper compared with strokeplay.  This is because the higher handicapper can make a big hash of a number of holes and still come in with a good stableford score.  This is not the case with the lower handicapper who has less strokes to play with and has to make most, if not all, holes count.  Therefore it is fairer to adjust the handicaps of all to level the playing field for the lower handicappers.  Whether 3/4ths is too great an adjustment is open to debate, maybe 4/5ths would be fairer.

My take on it. I don't mind playing comps with any high handicap player exept for medals. I've thought about this for a while and believe players should be grouped with players within 5 shots handicap of each other. I think this would help low, mid or high to enjoy their games better. If you are mid or high and want to play with low handicappers then get out on the course/range and practice and get better, simples! Call me a low handicap snob but that's my opinion.when i started i learnt to watch the lows and pick up tips off them during stablefords and team comps. In medals I found it not nice and intimidating to be drawn with players who's handicaps were way lower than mine and they played steady whilst I thrashed it into the rough on many occasions.