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Rocky Marciano

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Post by dynamo Tue 05 Jul 2011, 10:15 am

Following my recent phase of amateur boxing analysis (plenty of content with BT Vision) I've been watching an episode on the highlights of Rocky Marciano's career. The first thing that struck me was his awkward looking pose, the uniquely formed arched back as he thrusted his varied range of myriad punches to his opponent. What also astounded me about him was the stamina and chin of this great fighter, his heart was unbelievable. He was constantly inside to his opponent, always in their face reducing their breathing space, pressurising them with his presence, suffocating them with his multitude of attacks. His defence wasn't great, he'd get hit, but it wasn't too much of a concern for him as he took it and grinded on, throwing punch after punch with a frequency we are not accustomed to with the modern day heavyweight.

For many out there he is NOT the greatest ever fighter, but one of them. One thing I can say about him is that for me, he has had the greatest heart, probably the greatest stamina that I have ever witnessed in boxing - and when your tired, when you feel like your lungs are going to burst and have to soldier on, IMO he probably threw the hardest punch when in that state.

I will be very interested to read your opinions and views on this great fighter. One conclusion I believe we can all reach is that he was a special figher and I would have loved to have seen him fight in my generation - but oh well.

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Post by Rowley Tue 05 Jul 2011, 10:24 am

Is something of a can of worms topic on here so will get my views out there before it degenerates. For me Marciano is a top tier fighter, perhaps just outside the top five of all time at heavy for me (I have Ali Louis, Johnson Dempsey and Jeffries and Holmes all definites above him if anyone cares) But the Rock is a tough nights work for anyone. As you say a guy of almost limitless stamina, heart and will to win who you would virtually have to nail to the canvas to beat. Couple this with him carrying his power right to the death and he is a guy who one mistake against can mean curtains.

A lot of people will go on about the crudeness of Rocky's style and I am not going to try and argue he is much in the way of a stylist because obvious this isn't the case, but on the back of reading what the peerless Archie Moore had to say about fighting the Rock I actually think his limitations style wise work for him because Archie argued that what would work against other fighters such as feints and drawing leads was useless against the Rock because whatever you did Marciano kept bulling forward and punching so at some point you had to go into the trenches against him which as we all know is one tough place to be with Marciano.

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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Tue 05 Jul 2011, 10:34 am

Oh God, this might even bring Azania back from retirement.

He was a special fighter. Not the prettiest in any sense of the word but fit, strong, hard punching and relentless. Had a heart as big as a lion and would be a tough night for anyone in history. There is so much to be admired about someone making the most of their talent, however much they did or didn't have. The Rock sure did that.

Make my top 10 with ease, somewhere between 5 - 8 for me.


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Post by 88Chris05 Tue 05 Jul 2011, 11:16 am

Apart from Vitali Klitschko, I don't think any other Heavyweight in history can come close to matching Marciano when it comes to maximizing their potential and making the most of what (relatively) little they have. A truly great fighter, no doubt, and while I 'only' have him at number nine in my own personal take on the Heavyweights (which is still high praise, before anyone gives me a kicking), I do think he gets dismissed far too readily today in some quarters.

I think his size is the obvious issue which people aren't sold on, but I think it gets overblown a little. Marciano was the master of taking away an opponent's reach advantage - once Marciano's battered your arms so that you can't hold them up anymore and got inside, it becomes a whole different fight, regardless of whether you're Ali, Johnson, Holmes, Klitschko, Lewis or any other Heavyweight you care to mention. If it becomes that kind of brawl then Marciano would be having nightmares against Foreman, Liston or Dempsey, but against many other great Heavyweights, he suddenly becomes favourite to win under such circumstances.

The era he fought in wasn't great, but then again, not all that many Heavyweight eras really have been. He wouldn't have remained undefeated had he campaigned ten to fifteen years later than he did for my money, but crucially, I still think he'd have been a great fighter in any era, and would be a horrible night's work for just about any other Heavyweight from eras gone by.
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Post by manos de piedra Tue 05 Jul 2011, 11:32 am

I would be a lot more lukewarm on him than a good many others I would imagine. Hes a fighter that seems to retrospectively have been much more appreciated in history as even at the time he was fighting he wasnt considered all that great compared to how he is viewed now.

I dont really like using the "if he was in another era he would not have been great" because that can be used to discredit almost all but the very very best but I do think the era suited him perfectly in terms of having good but ageing fighters that werent significantly bigger than him.

What he did in his own era speaks for itself, and his strengths have been covered by others. But I think stylewise he begins to become seriously less effective as heavies get bigger and hes not a fighter that succeeds well on a head to head basis against a large number of other heavies, despite ranking above them based on divisional acheivement in many cases.

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Post by dynamo Tue 05 Jul 2011, 11:52 am

"But I think stylewise he begins to become seriously less effective as heavies get bigger and hes not a fighter that succeeds well on a head to head basis against a large number of other heavies"

I'm not sure if I share that opinion - to me he seemed to have the uncanny ability of always being in the face opponent, no matter their size. And if the opponent was an outside fighter then he would seriously struggle to find any breathing room. For example, would Rocky have been able to close down K's legendary jab? The Marciano camp would say he is inside and sleighing him down regardless of the jab - the K camp would say their jab is one of the most underestimated facet of their game, where it is meticulously drawn and cleverly used to great effect. I'm with the former personally.

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Post by manos de piedra Tue 05 Jul 2011, 11:59 am

dynamo wrote:"But I think stylewise he begins to become seriously less effective as heavies get bigger and hes not a fighter that succeeds well on a head to head basis against a large number of other heavies"

I'm not sure if I share that opinion - to me he seemed to have the uncanny ability of always being in the face opponent, no matter their size. And if the opponent was an outside fighter then he would seriously struggle to find any breathing room. For example, would Rocky have been able to close down K's legendary jab? The Marciano camp would say he is inside and sleighing him down regardless of the jab - the K camp would say their jab is one of the most underestimated facet of their game, where it is meticulously drawn and cleverly used to great effect. I'm with the former personally.

Its one thing being able to walk down guys like Charles, Moore and Walcott who are smallish heavies with shortish reach and were fairly old. How does he fair trying to walk down a Holmes, Lewis, Bowe or Klitschko with his tiny arms and limited movement. I think he doesnt. I just think its unrealistic to expect him to walk through these kind of giants, despite his known toughness and durability.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue 05 Jul 2011, 12:05 pm

Holmes, Lewis or Bowe would be hard fights for him but Wlad simply isn't in their league nor despite his size is he in Walcott, Charles or Marcianos league

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Post by manos de piedra Tue 05 Jul 2011, 12:10 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Holmes, Lewis or Bowe would be hard fights for him but Wlad simply isn't in their league nor despite his size is he in Walcott, Charles or Marcianos league

So you say, but I tend to disagee. He may not ever be in their all time ranking league or pound for pound level but in pure head to head heavyweight terms as a big effective guy I think hes more than capable of beating them and if had to choose would back him to beat those guys at heavyweight.

Obviously in all time standings he wont be up there with them, Walcott perhaps excepted.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue 05 Jul 2011, 12:21 pm

He has size advantages over them and thats it, skill wise he doesn't come close, if Marciano was willing to walk through Louis who could still punch I don't see him being too bothered by Wlad. It's one thing jabbing ineffective fighters like Wlad has but something completely different doing it against someone who wont stop punching, will relentlessly plod forward and would take him out with one punch.

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Post by manos de piedra Tue 05 Jul 2011, 12:40 pm

A small guy outweighed by 60 pounds with limited movement plodding straight forward into the jab is exactly the kind of fighter I think is tailor made for Wlad.

Marciano is tough but I dont expect him to plow through the jab of a big powerful guy. And he wont be landing any of his punches because he will never find range.

I would be surprised if Marciano even bothered with heavyweight division if he were the last 20 years. Think he would have been a lightheavy/cruiser.

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Post by oxring Tue 05 Jul 2011, 12:43 pm

Not sure I agree manos - certainly about his ratings from other people at the time. The "superfight" between Ali and Marciano was filmed because many at the time thought Marciano to have been the greatest who ever lived.

In my view - he's someone who would struggle against sluggers but give boxers and other swarmers nightmares. The likes of Dempsey, Foreman and Liston would give him all ends of trouble - but his style, combined with stamina and workrate would cause many - including IMO Ali and Holmes problems.

Top end HW.
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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue 05 Jul 2011, 12:57 pm

The views on Marciano are so simplistic and the only reason people would pick Wlad to beat him is because of his size

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Post by Guest Tue 05 Jul 2011, 1:00 pm

For me the Walcott fight showed the best and worst of him,he was outboxed but won the fight with a brutal kayo-he found a way to win.Whilst I think often the unbeaten record is a bit generous considering he got the nod in one early fight , like Lewis he did beat everyone put in front of him,and that is exceptional.Under-rated to some extent because of his ugly style, he was a pretty good defensive fighter too.
I do wonder how he would fare against yer Lewises and yer Holmes,probably lose to such big rangy guys with their milkshakes and their digital wristwatches-but there's a lingering suspicion all the same that RM would find a way to win,like he always did!

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Post by manos de piedra Tue 05 Jul 2011, 1:19 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:The views on Marciano are so simplistic and the only reason people would pick Wlad to beat him is because of his size

So what? Size is as good a reason as any if you are talking about a massive difference of 10 inches height, 15 inches reach and 60 pounds of weight.

Obviously Pacquiao is more skilled than Wlad, doesnt mean he has a chance.

Stylewise Marciano is one of the lesser skilled heavies. He doesnt have any the tools needed to beat the jab as far as Im concerned. Footwork, speed, movement are all absent and I dont see how he just walks through a top jab and much bigger fighter. Stylewise its a horrible match up for him.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue 05 Jul 2011, 1:24 pm

Generally don't have a clue what you see in Wlad and whilst the jabs of Lewis, Bowe or Holmes may cause Marciano problems, Wlad isn't at that kind of level. At the end of the day Marciano has the resillience and power to cause Wlad a whole of problems while his jab may win him some rounds it's not going to stop Marciano in his tracks.

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Post by 88Chris05 Tue 05 Jul 2011, 1:29 pm

I think, due to a number of factors, that Wladimir is more than capable of beating Marciano, but on the other hand Marciano is also perfectly capable of taking Wladimir out. I don't think you have to simply tip your hat exclusively to only one of the two; it would be unreasonable to ignore the fact that Marciano never faced anyone with the physical dimensions of Wladimir, but likewise it would be foolish to ignore the fact that, on the few occasions his jab has been negated and he's been pressured on the inside, Wladimir has crumbled once or twice in the past.

Gun to me head, I'd make Marciano a 65:35 favorite against Wladimir. I think the telling factor is that, in my mind, Wladimir can't knock Marciano out at any stage, as well as Marciano's far superior stamina. Regardless of whether it's twelve or fifteen rounds, I'd back Marciano to finally break through Wladimir's pawing jab at some stage and, if he does, then the big Ukranian is bang in trouble. On the ocassions that he doesn't quite manage this, though (and I believe those ocassions would eventually come to pass if they fought enough times) I can see Wladimir fighting cautiously to take a win on the cards.
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Post by manos de piedra Tue 05 Jul 2011, 1:38 pm

oxring wrote:Not sure I agree manos - certainly about his ratings from other people at the time. The "superfight" between Ali and Marciano was filmed because many at the time thought Marciano to have been the greatest who ever lived.

In my view - he's someone who would struggle against sluggers but give boxers and other swarmers nightmares. The likes of Dempsey, Foreman and Liston would give him all ends of trouble - but his style, combined with stamina and workrate would cause many - including IMO Ali and Holmes problems.

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That was done some time after Marciano retired. Not when he was an active champion. It was also while Ali banned and only halfway through his own career.

I have to disagree with you on this. For me, Marciano excels against sluggers as thats what he did best and what his strengths leant themselves to. Its boxers I think he struggles against most.

The type of competition he beat and the circumstances it was in makes it difficult to apply his strengths to other eras. By and large his best opponents were ageing and/or not natural career heavyweights.

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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Tue 05 Jul 2011, 1:39 pm

One of the big problems for Wladimir is that he has a pretty limited inside game and if Marciano gets close enough, which I would wager he would at times, attempting to lean all over him and grab him would be fraught with danger. I can easily see Marciano freeing his arms and using some dirty tricks to start unloading, at which point Klitschko is in trouble for me.

Someone like Lewis or Bowe, or other guys of similar stature, that have an inside game coupled with a great jab would be more of a problem for Marciano, but Wladimir just doesn't possess this in his arsenal.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue 05 Jul 2011, 1:44 pm

Bang on Tino, where it matters to have a size advantage over Marciano which is on the inside Wlad is very poor, against Bowe in particular who has a fantastic inside game, Marciano would have no real advantages. As has been shown before it's almost impossible to keep Marciano at range for a full fight and as soon as he gets close to Wlad which he will it's fight over.

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Post by manos de piedra Tue 05 Jul 2011, 1:51 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Generally don't have a clue what you see in Wlad and whilst the jabs of Lewis, Bowe or Holmes may cause Marciano problems, Wlad isn't at that kind of level. At the end of the day Marciano has the resillience and power to cause Wlad a whole of problems while his jab may win him some rounds it's not going to stop Marciano in his tracks.

Why is Wlads jab not on that level? Because he hasnt beaten an all time great with it? He may be lacking elsewhere but his jab is top class.

Hes dominated his era bar his sibling with it and has never been outboxed in his career - his losses coming for other reasons.

I think you underrate Wlad in general, but in this particular scenario I still cant see how why you wouldnt consider all the advantages he holds over Marciano and think Marciano is capable of simply walking through him.

I cant see how he manages to find range against a far bigger Wlad as he lacks most of things I think are neccessary to beat Wlads and jab and get inside it with any regularity.

His whole basis of winning seems to be just plods right through the jab and is able to land on Wlad. I dont think he could do either. I think the jab backs him up and Wlad controls the range as the much bigger man to render any Marciano attacks fairly obsolete.

Marciano never faced anyting close to Wlads style or size, whereas Wlad has faced guys who plod at him his whole career and in this case would also be the far bigger fighter. You might say Marciano, Charles, Moore etc are "better" or "more skillful" which in an overall sense they probably are but this can easily be countered by the size and style of Wlad and the very different problems he poses.


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Post by Union Cane Tue 05 Jul 2011, 1:56 pm

I'm with manos, Wlad would just keep Marciano at arms length with his jab. Remember Rocky is under 6 feet, a full 4 inches shorter than Haye (I'm still not convinced that Haye is actually 6'3, but we'll assume he is) and also if you compare Haye's reach of 78" to Marciano's 67", you can see the problems the Brockton Blockbuster would have getting anywhere near Klitschko.

WK by shutout UD for me. .

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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Tue 05 Jul 2011, 1:59 pm

[quote="manos de piedra"Marciano never faced anyting close to Wlads style or size, whereas Wlad has faced guys who plod at him his whole career and in this case would also be the far bigger fighter. You might say Marciano, Charles, Moore etc are "better" or "more skillful" which in an overall sense they probably are but this can easily be countered by the size and style of Wlad and the very different problems he poses.

[/quote]

Manos, this is the point to me though. You are correct that Wladimir has faced guys who plod at him his whole career and almost all of them, at times, got close enough to let Wladimir lean all over them. I doubt that Marciano would allow this to happen. His ferocity and bullish strength, allied to his conditioning would be a horrible combination for a guy lacking an inside game, no matter how big he is.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue 05 Jul 2011, 2:02 pm

Wlads jab is good but it's not top class in the sense of Lewis, Bowe, Holmes, Ali or Liston, those fighters could also back it up with variation something Wlad cannot do.

He's dominated the era in the sense he's beaten everyone baring the best other fighter out there which for whichever reason cannot be ignored, Lewis doesn't get a free pass for not facing Bowe or not facing Holyfield or Tyson earlier nor does Dempsey get a free pass for not facing Wills, as part of a brotherhood he's dominated the era but not by himself.

To stop Marciano in his tracks you need to be able to hurt him which is easier said than done, proven power punchers like Dempsey, Tyson, Foreman or Lewis may be able to do it but I can't see Wlad comitting to a big punch to do it.

You say Wlad has faced plodders his whole career but have any of them realistically been 2/3 levels below Marciano let alone at his level?

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Post by Union Cane Tue 05 Jul 2011, 2:06 pm

Also, Marciano was barely 190 lbs wearing a wet coat, I can't see how he would trouble Wlad at all.

No contest.
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Post by Strongback Tue 05 Jul 2011, 2:11 pm

Wlad's jab is over rated by a lot of people. His left hand is more of a defensive weapon.

Liston, Ali, Holmes......they had great jabs. Wlads isn't in the same league.

Can't say if Wlad would beat Marciano because he hasn't faced anyone remotely as good as The Rock.

Wlads a good guy but people are losing the tun of themselves on his standing in history.


It's just blinkered conservative thinking to suggest a fighter is great because he hasn't been beaten for a long time. '7 years at the top oh he must be very good'.

By that reasoning Sven Ottke must be an All Time Great.

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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Tue 05 Jul 2011, 2:14 pm

Union Cane wrote:
No contest.

That's that, then.

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Post by manos de piedra Tue 05 Jul 2011, 2:15 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:[quote="manos de piedra"Marciano never faced anyting close to Wlads style or size, whereas Wlad has faced guys who plod at him his whole career and in this case would also be the far bigger fighter. You might say Marciano, Charles, Moore etc are "better" or "more skillful" which in an overall sense they probably are but this can easily be countered by the size and style of Wlad and the very different problems he poses.


Manos, this is the point to me though. You are correct that Wladimir has faced guys who plod at him his whole career and almost all of them, at times, got close enough to let Wladimir lean all over them. I doubt that Marciano would allow this to happen. His ferocity and bullish strength, allied to his conditioning would be a horrible combination for a guy lacking an inside game, no matter how big he is.[/quote]

But how does Marciano beat the jab and find range? Its too easy to say he just gets in on the inside and the fights over. How does he do it?

I completely disagree that he can just plow forward and wade through it. The jab is too strong and Wlad can just step in and out of range with his massive size and reach advantage. In the occasional time Marcino does get in then he has to beal with a 60 pound heavier guy leaning on him. Again I think its to easy to say his ferocity and stregth would get through. Even bigger stronger men than Marciano have been manhandled and the weight disparity is too much for me to believe he has a chance in the clinches.

He just doesnt have the speed, lateral movement, agility, handspeed, head movement, footwork or any of things thing that allow someone to beat a good jab. On top of that hes giving up an large amount of size.

His only hope for me would be against the Wlad from 2003 whos conditioning was suspect and he aimed to make the bigger guy gas out and get to him late. I think Wlads conditioning, control and defense has improved dramatically since then though so if we talk peak vs peak I just add Marciano to the list of guys that fails to beat the jab. He just doesnt have the tools, style or physicality for me.

I can see arguments for smaller heavies like Dempsey or Tyson who have a far more useful skillset to face a guy like Wlad but Wlad is all wrong for Marciano the way they match up.


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Post by Union Cane Tue 05 Jul 2011, 2:19 pm

Of course weight isn't the only factor, but only nine, that's nine out of forty nine, of Marciano's opponents weighed in at over 200 lbs.
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Post by Strongback Tue 05 Jul 2011, 2:34 pm

Dempsey v Willard

Louis v Buddy Baer

Tyson from the 80's at 5' 9.5" against an array of men much taller than him.


Thats how a little guy beats a big guy.

Hard and relentless punching. Rock does that for 20 rounds if he feels like it.


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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Tue 05 Jul 2011, 2:37 pm

manos de piedra wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:[quote="manos de piedra"Marciano never faced anyting close to Wlads style or size, whereas Wlad has faced guys who plod at him his whole career and in this case would also be the far bigger fighter. You might say Marciano, Charles, Moore etc are "better" or "more skillful" which in an overall sense they probably are but this can easily be countered by the size and style of Wlad and the very different problems he poses.


Manos, this is the point to me though. You are correct that Wladimir has faced guys who plod at him his whole career and almost all of them, at times, got close enough to let Wladimir lean all over them. I doubt that Marciano would allow this to happen. His ferocity and bullish strength, allied to his conditioning would be a horrible combination for a guy lacking an inside game, no matter how big he is.

But how does Marciano beat the jab and find range? Its too easy to say he just gets in on the inside and the fights over. How does he do it?

I completely disagree that he can just plow forward and wade through it. The jab is too strong and Wlad can just step in and out of range with his massive size and reach advantage. In the occasional time Marcino does get in then he has to beal with a 60 pound heavier guy leaning on him. Again I think its to easy to say his ferocity and stregth would get through. Even bigger stronger men than Marciano have been manhandled and the weight disparity is too much for me to believe he has a chance in the clinches.

He just doesnt have the speed, lateral movement, agility, handspeed, head movement, footwork or any of things thing that allow someone to beat a good jab. On top of that hes giving up an large amount of size.

His only hope for me would be against the Wlad from 2003 whos conditioning was suspect and he aimed to make the bigger guy gas out and get to him late. I think Wlads conditioning, control and defense has improved dramatically since then though so if we talk peak vs peak I just add Marciano to the list of guys that fails to beat the jab. He just doesnt have the tools, style or physicality for me.

I can see arguments for smaller heavies like Dempsey or Tyson who have a far more useful skillset to face a guy like Wlad but Wlad is all wrong for Marciano the way they match up.

[/quote]

Manos, we are just going to go backwards and forwards with this.

Likewise, it is "too easy" to say Marciano can't get close to Wladimir, lord knows, some utter dross has managed to do it so far. How does any fighter get past Wlad's jab? They, with their trainers input, attempt to formulate a plan. Now whether this works or not is open to debate. I don't think Marciano is as much as a plodder as you make him out. He had subtle changes in his footwork and would surely, when faced with someone who is supposed to have such a great jab, he would at least attempt to offer some sustained head movement.

For me, Wlad's jab is primarily used to fend the guy off more than push him back. He was slightly more aggressive with it against Haye but that was because he was looking for the guy more than usual. I would never deny that his jab is good, but it isn't great. Not for me anyway.

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Post by manos de piedra Tue 05 Jul 2011, 2:38 pm

Strongback wrote:Dempsey v Willard

Louis v Buddy Baer

Tyson from the 80's at 5' 9.5" against an array of men much taller than him.


Thats how a little guy beats a big guy.

Hard and relentless punching. Rock does that for 20 rounds if he feels like it.


Marciano has little of the skills that the above have to unlock Wlad. Hard punching is no good if you cant land and are shipping damage yourself.

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Post by dynamo Tue 05 Jul 2011, 2:40 pm

Manos I would happilly wager that Marciano would get inside EVERY round against either K. brother. How does he do this? Throught guts and determination. He can take a hit. He can take a hook. He can take an uppercut. He has arguably the best chin and heart ever in boxing. The jab to him will be just that - a jab. Marciano will not be able to be kept at range at all. Look at all the footage again, he never lets them breathe, he sticks to them like glue, he doesn't even let himself breathe! His stamina is relentless - Klitschko in Rocky's generation wouldn't last the distance. Rocky in our generation would see the newly conditioned Klistschko struggle to lay punches of worthy frequency. Yes their size is far superior, but I do not think they have the punch power to keep him at bay with their style. Especially when their jab is mainly used as a controlling and functional tool for ring control and gradual delapidation of the opponent - quite frankly Rocky would never have lived in their world and cause havoc. Just like Tyson would have done - Tyson and Rocky would have got inside in pretty much the same obstinate aggresive manner.

This is just my opinion, but I accept we disagree Smile

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Post by zx1234 Tue 05 Jul 2011, 2:48 pm

I think boxers do cause marciano problems as opposed to sluggers but it requires a good chin to box marciano or at least very good recuperation power like holmes, something wlad just doesn't have.


With rocky's stamina he is likely to find wlad a few times in the fight and that should be enough to stop him



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Post by manos de piedra Tue 05 Jul 2011, 2:50 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:[quote="manos de piedra"Marciano never faced anyting close to Wlads style or size, whereas Wlad has faced guys who plod at him his whole career and in this case would also be the far bigger fighter. You might say Marciano, Charles, Moore etc are "better" or "more skillful" which in an overall sense they probably are but this can easily be countered by the size and style of Wlad and the very different problems he poses.


Manos, this is the point to me though. You are correct that Wladimir has faced guys who plod at him his whole career and almost all of them, at times, got close enough to let Wladimir lean all over them. I doubt that Marciano would allow this to happen. His ferocity and bullish strength, allied to his conditioning would be a horrible combination for a guy lacking an inside game, no matter how big he is.

But how does Marciano beat the jab and find range? Its too easy to say he just gets in on the inside and the fights over. How does he do it?

I completely disagree that he can just plow forward and wade through it. The jab is too strong and Wlad can just step in and out of range with his massive size and reach advantage. In the occasional time Marcino does get in then he has to beal with a 60 pound heavier guy leaning on him. Again I think its to easy to say his ferocity and stregth would get through. Even bigger stronger men than Marciano have been manhandled and the weight disparity is too much for me to believe he has a chance in the clinches.

He just doesnt have the speed, lateral movement, agility, handspeed, head movement, footwork or any of things thing that allow someone to beat a good jab. On top of that hes giving up an large amount of size.

His only hope for me would be against the Wlad from 2003 whos conditioning was suspect and he aimed to make the bigger guy gas out and get to him late. I think Wlads conditioning, control and defense has improved dramatically since then though so if we talk peak vs peak I just add Marciano to the list of guys that fails to beat the jab. He just doesnt have the tools, style or physicality for me.

I can see arguments for smaller heavies like Dempsey or Tyson who have a far more useful skillset to face a guy like Wlad but Wlad is all wrong for Marciano the way they match up.


Manos, we are just going to go backwards and forwards with this.

Likewise, it is "too easy" to say Marciano can't get close to Wladimir, lord knows, some utter dross has managed to do it so far. How does any fighter get past Wlad's jab? They, with their trainers input, attempt to formulate a plan. Now whether this works or not is open to debate. I don't think Marciano is as much as a plodder as you make him out. He had subtle changes in his footwork and would surely, when faced with someone who is supposed to have such a great jab, he would at least attempt to offer some sustained head movement.

For me, Wlad's jab is primarily used to fend the guy off more than push him back. He was slightly more aggressive with it against Haye but that was because he was looking for the guy more than usual. I would never deny that his jab is good, but it isn't great. Not for me anyway.[/quote]

Marciano tactics were as predictable as Wlads. That why I think this fight goes the way I expect it to. He comes forward at you and tries to wear you out. I cant see either man changing tactics dramatically and for me Marcianos are pretty much a proven failure against Wlad and the big size difference would also be telling in this fight. I think Wlad has all the atributes and tactical style to beat Marciano and I dont think the opposite is true.

Can Marciano reasonably expect to beat Wlad from distance as someone like Lewis, Bowe or Holmes might? No not at all. With his small size and tiny reach he has simply got to get close. How does he do that? The way he did in all his fight by coming forward, being able to take punishment and grinding you down with high workrate. I just think Wlad is too big, too good at range, possibly too strong and Marciano doesnt have the tools to get close enough to Wlad. I still also believe Wlads straight right is more than powerful enough to put Marciano down and if he did start using it and landing it with regularity Marciano could be stopped.

Obviously it doesnt mean he is reduced to the same standard as Wlads opposition, but I think based on size and style he suffers a similar fate on the scorecards anyway.

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Post by Union Cane Tue 05 Jul 2011, 2:53 pm

Spot on.

I don't think any of us would rate WK above RM in the all time rankings, but on a head-to-head basis its Wlad every time.
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Post by oxring Tue 05 Jul 2011, 2:56 pm

Would you describe Marciano as a slugger then Manos?

For me he's the classic swarming boxer. The guys he beat - Walcott and Charles - and LaStarza for that matter - they were boxers not sluggers.

To counter my own argument, you could say that Walcott did give him fits first time around - but Rocky still found a way to win - and look what happened in the rematch.
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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Tue 05 Jul 2011, 3:00 pm

alma wrote:
Union Cane wrote:Spot on.

I don't think any of us would rate WK above RM in the all time rankings, but on a head-to-head basis its Wlad every time.

Exactly. You have to rate a fighter in terms of the era he was in. It's impossible to compare someone like Wlad with RM as human beings have evolved in size/conditioning since RM's time.

What current heavyweight has better conditioning than Marciano. David Haye? Chris Arreola? Sam Peter? Wladimir Klitschko?

Actually, don't answer that as the thread, which is an excellent one, will quickly go down the pan!


Last edited by Mind the windows Tino. on Tue 05 Jul 2011, 3:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Strongback Tue 05 Jul 2011, 3:01 pm

manos de piedra wrote:
Strongback wrote:Dempsey v Willard

Louis v Buddy Baer

Tyson from the 80's at 5' 9.5" against an array of men much taller than him.


Thats how a little guy beats a big guy.

Hard and relentless punching. Rock does that for 20 rounds if he feels like it.


Marciano has little of the skills that the above have to unlock Wlad. Hard punching is no good if you cant land and are shipping damage yourself.



Well how do we know when Wlad has never fought a contender of any repute. Would you agree Marciano is far far superior to any opponent Wlad has fought?

I'm not dissing Wlad I like him but I think people are really getting carried away with his jab and historical standing because he beat Haye.

I knew Haye was full of it, I said it enough, he'll be lucky to get mentioned in the foot notes of HW boxing history.

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Post by manos de piedra Tue 05 Jul 2011, 3:13 pm

oxring wrote:Would you describe Marciano as a slugger then Manos?

For me he's the classic swarming boxer. The guys he beat - Walcott and Charles - and LaStarza for that matter - they were boxers not sluggers.

To counter my own argument, you could say that Walcott did give him fits first time around - but Rocky still found a way to win - and look what happened in the rematch.

I would have him a little between the two. Hes a pressure fighter for sure but I think he lacks the speed for a really great swarmer style.

I agree the guys he beat were largely boxers that he was able to grind down but given the circumstances for them I just think they have little or no bearing on fight with Wlad. Charles and Moore were really blown up light heavies and I still dont particularly rate Walcott as a great heavy. Louis was pretty old.

I think Marciano comes out best in wars and slugfests where his attributes are best served.

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Post by manos de piedra Tue 05 Jul 2011, 3:18 pm

Strongback wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:
Strongback wrote:Dempsey v Willard

Louis v Buddy Baer

Tyson from the 80's at 5' 9.5" against an array of men much taller than him.


Thats how a little guy beats a big guy.

Hard and relentless punching. Rock does that for 20 rounds if he feels like it.


Marciano has little of the skills that the above have to unlock Wlad. Hard punching is no good if you cant land and are shipping damage yourself.



Well how do we know when Wlad has never fought a contender of any repute. Would you agree Marciano is far far superior to any opponent Wlad has fought?

I'm not dissing Wlad I like him but I think people are really getting carried away with his jab and historical standing because he beat Haye.

I knew Haye was full of it, I said it enough, he'll be lucky to get mentioned in the foot notes of HW boxing history.

Hes better but I dont think you can readily dismiss the massive size differentiations and tactically and stylewise Wlad is a nightmare for him I think.

Just because I think Wlad would beat Marciano it doesnt mean Marciano gets lowered to the standard of Wlads opponents. I think he loses based on style, tactics and size.

Haye beat a much bigger man in Valuev but I think this has zero relevance to a Marciano v Wlad fight as the whole tactics and relative skills/strengths of each fighter is completely different.


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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue 05 Jul 2011, 3:19 pm

If we're dismissing Marcianos fights then surely we must dismiss Wlads fights because none of them have come against anyone like the rock?

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Post by manos de piedra Tue 05 Jul 2011, 3:24 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:If we're dismissing Marcianos fights then surely we must dismiss Wlads fights because none of them have come against anyone like the rock?

To an extent, but in a tactical sense many have employed the same tactics I believe Marciano would employ whereas Marciano has fought nothing near the size and style of Wlad.

In an all time ranking sense Marcianos opposition may carry more weight but in the head to head match up I dont see them as having any bearing.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue 05 Jul 2011, 3:25 pm

What opponents of Wlads are willing to walk forward relentlessly throwing punches non stop?

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Post by manos de piedra Tue 05 Jul 2011, 3:31 pm

Hes faced many guys that come forward and the point is they cant find range and eat jabs all night. Marciano wont be throwing punches non stop if hes two feet away from Wlad at all times and he might not be so willing to come forward after 7/8 rounds of eating non stop jabs or the occasional power right from an opponent much larger and stronger than hes faced.

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Post by Union Cane Tue 05 Jul 2011, 3:36 pm

A problem I have with these mythical match-ups, Wlad will obviously have seen footage of Marciano fighting, therefore he will know what to expect, however when we dig up Marciano for the fight do we plonk him in front of Youtube for a couple of days to allow him to study Wlad's style and perhaps come up with a different strategy, or does he just get thrown in at the deep end and we expect him to fight the same way he always did?
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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue 05 Jul 2011, 3:39 pm

Bigger than he's faced but I very much doubt he hits that much harder than the likes of Walcott, LaStarza or even an ageing Louis, the problem I have is simply saying that Wlads bigger therefore he wins, he's skillful enough to keep Marciano at bay with a pawing jab. Works against the level of fighter he's faced but wouldn't work against a top class heavyweight, very little variation to his work.

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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Tue 05 Jul 2011, 3:40 pm

manos de piedra wrote:Hes faced many guys that come forward and the point is they cant find range and eat jabs all night. Marciano wont be throwing punches non stop if hes two feet away from Wlad at all times and he might not be so willing to come forward after 7/8 rounds of eating non stop jabs or the occasional power right from an opponent much larger and stronger than hes faced.

But they, nearly to a man, got close to him. Pretty much all of Wladimir's fights involve him leaning on his opponents at some stage and by default, they must have got close to him. They all did it and so could Marciano, difference been, they didn't even have a fraction of Marcianos brutallity on the inside.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Tue 05 Jul 2011, 3:42 pm

From the way some people talk about Wlad you'd think he kept every fighter at arms length for the whole 12 rounds which clearly isn't the case

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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Tue 05 Jul 2011, 3:43 pm

This is very true Union but it would be boring forum if we never talked about these fantasy matchups. They are part of what makes this place so entertaining!

Would you rather we discussed how Wladimir would fare against David Haye? I reckon Klitschko would win a lopsided UD !

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