Liston Vs Lewis - as read by Lennox Lewis

Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis. Both are usually there or thereabouts in people's top 10 heavys list and are often the ones to miss out when people have to narrow it down to a top 10. If they were to face off, who wins and why?

I think it would be an interesting match up. I'd go for Liston in this one who I believe is underated by some.

The only advantages Lennox would have imo are physical ones. He struggled with jabbers and would be facing one of the best and most hurtful jabs in boxing. Sonny also had the edge in power and a better chin as well as having the same reach as Lewis. He could fight inside and out and his own jab and reach would neutralise Lennoxes jab to a degree which was one of his greatest weapons. Unable to control the fight with his jab and lacking the movement and footwork to keep Liston off I think Lewis gets broken down and Ko'd late.

I've rushed through that and simplified the fight a bit but more interested in your opinions on this one than my own.

I reckon Lewis would stand a reasonable chance- I don't really remember him struggling with jabs too much except for the bruno fight, he is bigger than Liston, has a better boxing brain than Liston and I think is underated in the chin and footwork department - his fight with Tua springs to mind, when he moved well and controlled the range and pace of the fight perfectly. Also tended to perform at his best when up against the more dangerous foes, and was mentally strong- don't think lewis is intimidated by Liston. Assuming both are at their best this an even money fight

Some heavyweight "head to head" matches are easier to call than others, but this is one that has always troubled me. I would say it is a real "pick'um" fight assuming both are at their respective peaks.

I think Lennox did struggle with a good jab, the Bruno fight and the second Holyfield fight been prime examples of this and one thing Liston did have was a terrific jab. Likewise, Lewis had a great jab when he bothered to throw it with purpose and if one fighter could establish superiority in this department, it would go a long way towards winning them the fight.

They could both be hit and hurt, although you wouldn't exactly call either of them chinny (Lewis was taken out a couple of time, but so was Sonny) and they both had the ability to knock each other out with one punch should they land. Liston was an underrated boxer, and he showed this in solid wins against Williams and Folley although as we all know, he struggled with Ali (Clay) in their first meeting, but who wouldn't have struggled with the great man back then. Lennox could obviously box beautifully as well at times, the Tua fight been a solid example. I appreciate that Tua is a fraction of the fighter that Liston was but the point remains. Lewis had that amatuer pedigree and could box well when he had too.

One thing I would say, is that Lennox fought at his best when he had some fear of his opponent. I wouldn't say he was ever intimidated by anyone, but if he respected you then he often seemed to pull out his best performances.

Really hard one to call, as I can easily see both winning. I can see Lewis outpointing Sonny or stopping him late, likewise I can see Liston taking Lennox out late or even nick a points win. Lennox could be pushed back in a fight, that is for sure. Bruno, Holyfield, Mercer all did it with success and if Liston got him under pressure, on the back foot and kept him there, then he could well take a tight decision or knock Lennox out.

Gun to my head, I would say Liston would win 6 out of 10 fights but I am in no way certain of that!

Lewis wins by knockout within 6 to 7 rounds...Lewis's heavy hands, superior size, reach, and range would absolutely blow Liston away...Liston also has a strong jab, but he'd never get close enough to Lewis to land it.

Liston could knock out Lewis if he catches him. Lewis' chin isnt as weak as some think. Still Liston could dent it if he caught him. Lennox has a slight edge in speed. Liston wasnt the smartest fighter.

I think it would be down to ring generalship and intelligence. Lennox has the clear edge here. Knowing what Liston could do to him, Lewis would not fight him toe to toe. He would set up his attack plan first. Neither is a speed demon so there will be no search. Both possess fine jabs but Lewis would make better use of his. Lewis wins by knockout with his right hand finishing off Liston.

Pretty much agree with what you said Tino, though I'd go Lewis to win 6 out of 10, at a push.

Fists of Fury wrote:Pretty much agree with what you said Tino, though I'd go Lewis to win 6 out of 10, at a push.

Ask me another day Fists and I would say exactly the same thing as you. One of the hardest ones to call for me.

Liston had a great jab but I think Lewis height and reach advantages may play a big part..

Lewis was no Ali and I'd go so far as to say a Correa-trained Lewis lands on his butt..

However I think that a Steward Lewis has the tools to disarm the ugly bear as he's slightly quicker and much bigger and probably smarter...

Intriguing fight but I'll go for the Steward Lewis to win probably by decision.

I'd probably go with a Lewis decision win in a one off fight. Not many heavyweights, peak for peak, are better than Lewis, in my opinion.

Don't have time for detailed responses today, since I'm ' here and gone ' till tomorrow afternoon, but I just thought I'd point out that Liston had exactly the same reach - 84ins. - as Lewis did.

Lewis was punching down though..

HumanWindmill wrote:Don't have time for detailed responses today, since I'm ' here and gone ' till tomorrow afternoon, but I just thought I'd point out that Liston had exactly the same reach - 84ins. - as Lewis did.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Lewis was punching down though..

Making it more difficult to throw body shots. Liston would be able to fire off body shots very straight and, as we saw in both Patterson fights and both Williams fights, he was absolutely devastating to the body.

Some of Lewis hard punching off the jab might have dissuaded Liston from coming inside...

Lewis punched a lot harder than Ali I believe and Liston lacked the will to get inside much there after the initial rounds....

Won't say Liston lacked heart but I believe Lewis had more of it..

I think physical size plays a part, Lewis was a behemoth with an extremely powerful right hand. Liston was stopped by smaller, lessee punchers - if Lewis lands a big punch it would spell curtains. Add to that the strength advantage lennox has up close and I think it's a hard fight for sonny. He had a great jab, but he'd be jabbing upwards which isn't easy. Of course Liston could punch himself, and he could move on the outside which may cause lennox trouble, but I'd back lewis - the bigger, stronger, smarter fighter - to take either a decision or late ko 7 times out of 10.

I think it's a pickem with Lewis's stand up boxing on one side and Liston's power vs Lewis's suspect chin on the other.

I think I'd go for Lewis on points though. I like fast punching swarmers to take Lewis: Like Tyson and Dempsey. Can see Lewis containing Liston.

I have always been of the opinion that Lewis is overrated and would struggle to dominate in even this era, so it's Liston for me

Liston gets cited as an example of a fighter with a freakish reach, so i guess he had the widest back and or longest arms in boxing... unless he had 6 inch finger nails. I'm not sure how reliable the quoted figures are but, its fair to assume that neither would have a significant advantage in that department.

To me though Liston's jab was a killer because he could outreach all his opposition. In this fight it would be nullified. Despite Lewis struggling with guys with decent jabs, he's too big and too good for sonny imo.

bhb001 wrote:I have always been of the opinion that Lewis is overrated and would struggle to dominate in even this era, so it's Liston for me

You really think he would struggle dominate in this era? He may have a tough night with Vitali, and Wladimir may cause him to think a little, but I am sure he would be the premier heavyweight of this era by some distance.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

bhb001 wrote:I have always been of the opinion that Lewis is overrated and would struggle to dominate in even this era, so it's Liston for me

You really think he would struggle dominate in this era? He may have a tough night with Vitali, and Wladimir may cause him to think a little, but I am sure he would be the premier heavyweight of this era by some distance.

lewis in his prime would absolutly rule the heavyweight scene at the moment, he beat vitali (who is bettter than wlad imo) at the end of his career, and any of the previous recent champions (haye, wlad, vitali, valuev) would be a walk in the park.

and as for lewis liston, giving the edge to lewis 7-8 time out of 10. think he would be a little too quick for sonny and not let him land much.

Lewis in his prime sneaked a verdict on the ordinary Mercer...decked off Akinwande, staggered off Briggs and knocked cold off Rahman..

Great fighter but don't dismiss the Klits ability to make Lewis strugggle.

agree a fight against vitali would be tough for any stage in his career, but honestly i think he'd make mince meat of wlad, he takes away every natural advantage he holds over most opponents, there matched about even in power and chin department, but lennox would out box him easily.

eddyfightfan wrote:agree a fight against vitali would be tough for any stage in his career, but honestly i think he'd make mince meat of wlad, he takes away every natural advantage he holds over most opponents, there matched about even in power and chin department, but lennox would out box him easily.

How on earth are they matched in the chin department? Lennox has a far superior chin to Wlad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIRShCBKwng

Truss, I will give you Mercer, but the Akinwande knockdown was a farce, Lewis wasn't hurt or shaken at all, although I suspect you already know that. I don't believe he was that hurt against Briggs either. Yes he was knocked out by Rahman and McCall, he also took some huge shots from Evander Holyfield and Vitali Kiltschko and didn't budge. It is not like Wladimir has never been taken out.

Anyway, I did say in my post that both brothers would offer some sort of challenge, but I am pretty certain Lennox, if he were around now would be man to beat at heavyweight.

Vitali I think would always give Lewis a good fight whereas Wlad I genuinely don't see lasting long with him, he lands anything like that uppercut on little brother and the fights over. He's bigger, stronger, harder punching, a better jabber, more punch variation and far better on the inside, don't see any advantage that Wlad has to make the fight remotely close.

maybe lewis edges it a little, but i have changed my mind towards wlads "glass chin", nobody says that about lewis who got KO'd by rahman and mccall, but wlad suffers the same fate with saanders and brewster and carrys the label around for years. haye landed more power shots than wlad, and he never looked in trouble, and one thing you can credit haye for is excellent punching power.

Haye has decent punching power but from his fights at heavyweight don't think we could call him an excellent puncher at the weight, every time he did land Wlad looked stunned at which point Haye should have upped his work rate.

The difference between the two is Lewis was capable of taking a big shot, Vitali was landing on him almost at will whereas Wlad has never looked comfortable getting hit

eddyfightfan wrote:maybe lewis edges it a little, but i have changed my mind towards wlads "glass chin", nobody says that about lewis who got KO'd by rahman and mccall, but wlad suffers the same fate with saanders and brewster and carrys the label around for years. haye landed more power shots than wlad, and he never looked in trouble, and one thing you can credit haye for is excellent punching power.

Haye couldn't follow up on the punch...Wlad has been dropped 11 or 12 times in his career...Lewis has been dropped only twice.

Lewis doesn't edge it a little he has a far superior chin.

While I wouldnt say Lewis is chinny there are question marks about
his chin. So if you're saying Liston was taken out buy lesser punchers then same applies to Lewis. If McCall and Rahman can get him out of there then Sonny easily can if he lands. I think Liston has less question marks in the chin dept. Respect to anyone that breaks their jaw and fights on.

eddyfightfan wrote:maybe lewis edges it a little, but i have changed my mind towards wlads "glass chin", nobody says that about lewis who got KO'd by rahman and mccall, but wlad suffers the same fate with saanders and brewster and carrys the label around for years. haye landed more power shots than wlad, and he never looked in trouble, and one thing you can credit haye for is excellent punching power.

eddy, Wladimir has been down so many times though. Not just the Sanders or Brewster fights. As Ghosty has already said, Lennox took some huge shots from Vitali and more tellingly for me, an absolute monster of a left hook from Holyfield in the 7th (I think) round of their second fight. Lewis has a far superior chin to Wladimir for me.

he probably does have the better chin, but wlad hasn't been down in his last 14 fights (7 years), and 11 of them were title fights. thats not the record of a chinny fighter, i think he probably gets a hard deal for it.

paperbag_puncher wrote:While I wouldnt say Lewis is chinny there are question marks about
his chin. So if you're saying Liston was taken out buy lesser punchers then same applies to Lewis. If McCall and Rahman can get him out of there then Sonny easily can if he lands. I think Liston has less question marks in the chin dept. Respect to anyone that breaks their jaw and fights on.

To go back to the original topic of the thread, I agree with this paperbag_puncher. In my first post I said that I believe either could take the other fighter out and stand by that.

Both of them had a better chin than Wladimir though!

eddyfightfan wrote:he probably does have the better chin, but wlad hasn't been down in his last 14 fights (7 years), and 11 of them were title fights. thats not the record of a chinny fighter, i think he probably gets a hard deal for it.

None of those fights were against the likes of Holyfield or Vitali were they?

It's also 6 years and 11 fights since the first Peter fight

Lewis has the far better chin than Wlad who is benefiting from fighting in poor era of competition. Lewis would dominate in this era and would only have competition from Vitali because he is so strong, but even he would succumb to Lewis' bombs.

Getting back to the original to point of this thread I would take Lewis over Liston due to him just being the better fighter. If you want to add his advantages in size and speed then it is hard to pick against Lewis. I see this fight starting out with a cagey exchange of jabs before Lennox gets into his groove and start to pick Sonny off before stopping him late in a similar fashion to his win over Tyson.

I've got to say, the Liston of the very late 50s/early 60's takes Lewis out more often than not for me. He couldn't be intimidated by calm, quietness, only crazies like Ali could get to him. Although I don't see Lewis being intimidated either, looking into Liston's eyes certainly seemed to have an effect on folks.

Liston's boxing skills are underrated and I think he has a far tougher jaw than Lennox. If you look at Williams v Liston 2, Williams hammers his head with some hefty shots and Liston, although shaken, weathers the storm and comes back to prove beyond doubt who the better man is. The way he finishes Willams is precise and he wastes very few punches. He wasn't a wild slugger. He also showed more than decent head movement in avoiding a surprisingly quick left from Williams.

I'm sure Lewis would have his moments, he's a guy I rank inside the top 10 every time, but Liston's heavy hands would not be denied. Liston KO inside 10.

As you can see from the new title, Lennox himself has had a read of this thread, and has since posted the link to it on his Twitter account, stating that it is interesting to get the hypothetical views of others on this matchup. Nice one!

Fists of Fury wrote:As you can see from the new title, Lennox himself has had a read of this thread, and has since posted the link to it on his Twitter account, stating that it is interesting to get the hypothetical views of others on this matchup. Nice one!

Good stuff Fists

Fists of Fury wrote:As you can see from the new title, Lennox himself has had a read of this thread, and has since posted the link to it on his Twitter account, stating that it is interesting to get the hypothetical views of others on this matchup. Nice one!

Send him my thread lewis beats Ali as well

horizontalhero wrote:I reckon Lewis would stand a reasonable chance- I don't really remember him struggling with jabs too much except for the bruno fight, he is bigger than Liston, has a better boxing brain than Liston and I think is underated in the chin and footwork department - his fight with Tua springs to mind, when he moved well and controlled the range and pace of the fight perfectly. Also tended to perform at his best when up against the more dangerous foes, and was mentally strong- don't think lewis is intimidated by Liston. Assuming both are at their best this an even money fight

I think he struggled with the jab, or rather jab accompanied by movement in Mercer, with Ray's smaller size actually becoming an advantage. Bruno too. I believe Lewis actually preferred his opponents to stand off him, which is more Liston's game. Wasn't until Lennox started using the uppercut against Mercer that he gained control, although I think in a longer fight it would have been wider in his favour. Although you could say this was the more amateur, less experienced Lennox.

Lennox is much bigger in this, but I believe has an identical reach. For me Lennox has mentality in his favour (for his big fights), and is more proven as a fighter. Beyond Patterson and a couple more lower tier wins, Sonny doesn't have that much pedigree. Will be fought at range and I believe Lewis would be comfortable enough and with a little bit better variety and movement. Added to his size and perhaps a speed advantage I find it difficult to pick against him.

Genuinely tough one to call. Liston never really faced anyone with Lewis size and pedigree combined so its very difficult to say how he would cope. Reach is similar but overall size is with Lewis.

In theory you would think it becomes a battle of the jabs and an issue of who can take control of th fight. For this reason I dont think Lennox can afford to start slowly like he did against Bruno and let Liston take early control with the jab.

I think there is a real threat to Lewis early to mid in the fight here but overall I give Lewis the edge in control and range fighting and that combined with his added physicality would be enough for me to make him a favourite. If he can establish contrl with his jab and control the range then he could break down Liston or stop him if Liston gets frustrated. But Liston has the power though to take him out at any time so Lewis would have to be top of his game and fully focused on the job.

Fists of Fury wrote:As you can see from the new title, Lennox himself has had a read of this thread, and has since posted the link to it on his Twitter account, stating that it is interesting to get the hypothetical views of others on this matchup. Nice one!

I better be a little bit more respectful then!! I don't underestimate Lewis who was top of the tree in his time. I do think we underestimate the Klitchkos, though. Lewis beat Vitali, but it was not a satisfying win, for example, as say Wlad with Haye, so my earlier comment still stands. Nice to see that the forum gets a few eyes on by people of definite class, though. Thanks for the posting FoF

The thing about the Lewis v Vitali fight was he still managed the win despite being in not the best shape against a guy who was younger and fresher in many senses. I think Lewis knew during and immediately after that fight he didn't have the motivation to train as hard as he once did and it was showing, hence the subsequent retirement. Vitali went into that fight with plenty of experience and a reputation as a big puncher who could match Lewis quite well in terms of physical statistics.

Yet despite all this he was only marginally winning a tight affair where both boxers looked like they could win it. Lewis was also looking like he was starting to come back into the fight before the stoppage and there's nothing to say he couldn't have won on points, as Vitali was hardly running away with the contest. Then you have the cut itself shows just how often Lewis was connecting despite looking gassed in nearly every round.

I just can't see how Vitali who didn't go into the fight with Lewis as a inexperienced fighter gives a younger more motivated/fresher and one who was in good physical shape a hard enough night to get the win.

Both brothers are good fighters and often don't get the credit they deserve but in this situation a on form Lewis has the beating of both without to many problems.

Whoops wish i'd given Lennox a bit more of a mention in the article now. But rushed through it and only really mentioned why I thought Sonny would win.. I'd make it 60-40 to Sonny and others have already mentioned how Lewis could win. Respect to Lennox though for reading!

Would be interesting to hear from someone like himself on where he'd rank the Klitschos in the all time rankings.

Wish we could get some real boxers on this forum be interesting to hear their opinions on old timers and what not (No Truss two amateur fights and a complimentary winners towel doesn't qualify you.)

An old boy i knew who was involved in the game once said to me without certain outside interference in his career Sonny Liston would have gone down as the greatest and most dominant Champion in boxing history, a fighting machine like no other were his words. I rate Lewis very highly but Liston was a class above and would have beat him up and stopped him.