Would have been an all time great in a different team!

Any suggestions for players who may have been all time greats had they played in a better team. I am sure that some players are held back by being in a mediocre team. For example would John Jeffrey or Finlay Calder have been household names had they played for the All Blacks (obviously difficult with them being Scottish, although these days it might well be possible; also I am not suggesting that their Scotland team was mediocre, anything but. However, I feel that their playing careers would have been more exhaulted in a more glamorous team).

Another example, Caucau: played in a pretty mediocre Fiji team (although played in a good Auckland team).

I hope you get the drift, and can come up with some better examples than me. Boards are just a bit slow, and I am getting bored picking my England team, so thought I would test your grey cells a bit!

Simon Geoghegan - If he was a winger on a decent team, he would be in the realm of all time greats. As it was, Ireland could even figure out that the ball should be passed out to him. He would almost get it by accident, then beat 4-5 players to score a try

Marty Holah was one. Noone knows how Warren Gatland would have gone either haha.

Pat Lam - absolutely top class number 8 who improved each and every side he played in. Never really had the platform at international level to really show what he was capable of.

Hugo Porta - pretty much carried Argentina for years.

Jonathan Davies, playing in front of a decent pack, though he was brilliant behind a rudey poo one.

Ieuan Evans - broke the Welsh try scoring record when no one ever past to him, every try he scored was from poaching them. Pretty much all his Wales tries came from errors from opposition players.

Mark Ring - would of loved to seen him playing behind a dominant pack!

Band-

Re: Geoghegan in any Irish team of the last decade he would have been something special to watch.

Diego Dominguez playing for one of the other 6N teams or for a 3N team would have been a superb International player. As it was he did show off his brilliance with Stade but had more to offer (esp when he was younger) if he played with a better Italian team than he did.

Parisse for Italy springs to mind. Jonah Lomu playing for Japan.

debaters1 wrote:Re: Geoghegan in any Irish team of the last decade he would have been something special to watch.

Diego Dominguez playing for one of the other 6N teams or for a 3N team would have been a superb International player. As it was he did show off his brilliance with Stade but had more to offer (esp when he was younger) if he played with a better Italian team than he did.

I agree about Geoghegan although I will say Ieuan Evans spanked him on a couple of occasions. I remember one year that Ieuan run over the try line and Geoghegan run hard into him and Ieuan stuck him on his backside which was quite funny to see.
Sadly for Geoghegan his international career was all about chasing kicks and being injured which was such a waste, I think if he played Full Back in this current Irish team that would be very, very special.

Robert Jones showed how good he was in Australia with the Lions back in 89 behind a dominant pack took Farr Jones to the cleaners.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Robert Jones showed how good he was in Australia with the Lions back in 89 behind a dominant pack took Farr Jones to the cleaners.

No, actually he stepped on his foot!

Robert Jones is an interesting discussion, he was an amazing passer but he was never assertive with his pack, didn't organise them very well. He was perfect for Jonathan Davies because he could pass long and accurate for Jonathan to run onto or for him to drop goal, but outside that he seemed to do very little. Certainly he had difficulty working with Neil Jenkins in the 1995 season.

He may have stood on his little toe bless him but he still had the better of him throughout the series.

bedfordwelsh wrote:He may have stood on his little toe bless him but he still had the better of him throughout the series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9Z2m6DgwQ4
^ watch the Lions scrum half's foot as the Australia scrum half feeds the scrum.

This was a magical tour! I agree the Welsh Jones was better than the Aussie Jones

But Caucau for all the talent he had has a serious attitude issue. Whose to say he wouldnt have had the same bad attitdue if he had played for the AB's.

Agree with Geoghegan. Class
Parisse yes. But he is massive name in the sport even with a poor side.

Think Shane Williams could have been a legendary player if he'd been with major rugby nation.... :run1:

Shane who?

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Think Shane Williams could have been a legendary player if he'd been with major rugby nation.... :run1:

OH NO YOU DIDNT!!!!!!

maybe if wilkinson played for japan england wouldnt have won the world cup...

Aw Welshy....im just having a laugh man....dont take it personally my good man.

I think the lead post is a bit harsh on Calder and Jeffrey - both played in a sometimes outstanding Scotland side and represented the Lions with distinction, so I think both have well deserved reputations (at least in the NH) - and I say that as a England fan.

Tom Smith is another interesting one - made a great reputation for himself as a Lion, but played through an era when Scotland were a bit more hit and miss. It's arguable that if Geech hadn't been in charge of the Lions, he might not even have been selected.

Of course the other source of unfulfilled greats is the Springboks of the apartheid ban era, who missed out on the opportunity to test themmselves (often) against the best in the world at the time.

Dummy, 'tis true, both won a grand slam with Scotland

GeordieFalcon wrote:Aw Welshy....im just having a laugh man....dont take it personally my good man.

dont worry i dont take offence, but actually taking your post into consideration would shane have been so amazing? as the thing is alot of the team he has played with a frankly average team and the things he did shocked other higher ranked teams as he turned something out of nothing, whereas if he was playing for say the all blacks would he have that freedom and as many chances?

Michael Jones, Jonah Lomu, Gareth Edwards, Campese, Fitzy and especially Hugo Porta...

Didnt matter which team they played for.

scotland
gary armstrong *hugely under rated)

wales
robert jones, jiffy davies, j deverux and imo the most underrated welsh player of the last 20 years and a world class player a bateman

ireland

popplewell


england

duckham

others stand out as mentioned above lam lobbe porta but i'd throw in gerber and uli smidt as both missed out due to the era they played in and the apartheid ban

jb1973 wrote:scotland
gary armstrong *hugely under rated)

wales
robert jones, jiffy davies, j deverux and imo the most underrated welsh player of the last 20 years and a world class player a bateman

ireland

popplewell


england

duckham

others stand out as mentioned above lam lobbe porta but i'd throw in gerber and uli smidt as both missed out due to the era they played in and the apartheid ban

Took the words right out of my mouth, I love watching some of the old footage on youtube of him. He carried some very ordinary English teams.

Keith Wood or Brian O'Driscoll if they'd been able to play for any of the Big 5 over the last decade.

There's probably quite a few French players who might have merited greater status if they'd played for one of the SANZAR teams.

I reckon Guscott would have been absolutely amazing in a AB shirt

welshy824 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Aw Welshy....im just having a laugh man....dont take it personally my good man.

dont worry i dont take offence, but actually taking your post into consideration would shane have been so amazing? as the thing is alot of the team he has played with a frankly average team and the things he did shocked other higher ranked teams as he turned something out of nothing, whereas if he was playing for say the all blacks would he have that freedom and as many chances?

I remember posting in a debate a couple of years back on Old 606, that IMO if Shane Williams was a New Zealander his tries per test ratio would be a bit higher, from playing in a more dominant side, but he'd have played a lot less tests, due to competition for a wing berth - Howlett, Rokocoko, Sivivatu, the Gears, ... .

Can't believe no one has mentioned Nick Evans yet!

Schalk Brits - the South Africans really have not treated him well.

Simon Geoghegan is the 1st name that springs to mind. If he'd have been around in the past decade he'd have been scoring tries for fun and would have gave even BOD and O'Connell a run for their money as Irish rugby icons.

Ieuen Evans too was a great player in a poor Welsh side.

Parisse is already a great in my opinion but has been a one man tour de force for Italy and would walk into any of the top sides.

It's unfortunate for Isa Nacewa that people won't see him grace the international stage as he has been a revelation for Leinster.

Ahhh Gary Armstrong...would make 9 in my favorite ever team.
No Falcons bias there of course Tough and class.

Welshy / Kiwi, I think Shane has proved over the years he is in that elite few who can make something from nothing...like a Cullen, Blanco, Jason Robinson etc.

These players are what we play the game for...or pay our money to watch.
He may have had slighlty more tries or less...who knows...but his record as it is is mightily impressive.... And in a Welsh team that has played some sublime rugby...to some downright awful rugby.

Agree totally about Jonathan Davies. One of the very few nippy little guys from Union to make it amongst the biff-bang of League. Potentially the same class as John and Bennett; too bad for us Welsh fans his prime years were spent in League.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXz9JHroBZQ&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSCZ-qQTodQ&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkUE9mQH6Bs&feature=related


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNey8QzjuG0&feature=related

Stan Wright if he had played for NZ or Aus i think he might be up there with the top props of his generation. Good on him for representing the Cook Islands though.