Roger's reaction to Djokovic defeating Nadal at Wimbly

First topic message reminder :

https://2img.net/h/i15.photobucket.com/albums/a355/Emily-b/3-1.jpg

speaks volumes...

Let's just face it - The SUPER HEROS of tennis are gifted
in the same way that an Opera Singer is gifted !
You;ve either got it or you haven't!

Agree - you have to have it to begin with, and like a singer who keeps practicising, so do these guys to enhance what they were born with.

As they say up north "you cant polish a turd".

Well I can Lydian !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Spit and polish works wonders

Here is the picture of the physical brute has beaten Roger. I usually don't post pictures of shirtless dudes, but Tenez brought in the pictures of Roger to dispute his physicality. Well I just thought we would eyeball the physical monster that out muscling everyone.

http://socialitelife.com/wimbledon-winner-novak-djokovic-shirtless-in-st-tropez-photos-07-2011

socal1976 wrote:Here is the picture of the physical brute has beaten Roger. I usually don't post pictures of shirtless dudes, but Tenez brought in the pictures of Roger to dispute his physicality. Well I just thought we would eyeball the physical monster that out muscling everyone.

http://socialitelife.com/wimbledon-winner-novak-djokovic-shirtless-in-st-tropez-photos-07-2011

Nole knows how to enjoy life, ma boy, he is , mmaaa boy!
to Nole & Jelena, to tennis and life

Haddie-nuff had made an interesting observation to which I had responded that even jockeys are very fit. Tenez's 'physicality' is a very narrow scope and does not cover the wide gamut of 'fitness'.

It would be a very interesting theoretical comparison to see a current Federer or Nadal and a corresponding 'unfit' version in a rigourous study. Need HG Wells to device a contraption first though.

I recall a set of studies in Australia (University of Australia in Melbourne, I think), which included Nick Faldo where his fitness was compared to Olympic athletes and it was found to be on par. I do not have a web link though.

noleisthebest wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Here is the picture of the physical brute has beaten Roger. I usually don't post pictures of shirtless dudes, but Tenez brought in the pictures of Roger to dispute his physicality. Well I just thought we would eyeball the physical monster that out muscling everyone.

http://socialitelife.com/wimbledon-winner-novak-djokovic-shirtless-in-st-tropez-photos-07-2011

Nole knows how to enjoy life, ma boy, he is , mmaaa boy!
to Nole & Jelena, to tennis and life

Dunking a poodle in water.

The guy is a character that is for sure. But my point is he is as skinny as a reed, if anything Federer has a wider waist and shoulder area. I was just tired of hearing about how only the guys with muscles beat Roger.

socal and to complete the picture here's a pic of Rafa...yes he's in good shape but he's hardly a bodybuilder is he. Ok, he's got abs but so has any low bodyfat athlete. Again, I suspect both Nole and Roger may be broader than him across the shoulders.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cbHpo1b04TU/TbHeEXr4VJI/AAAAAAAAAAo/_5vLOOBHQDo/s1600/tumblr_l1pq5eDO2g1qa20wo.jpg

Another one of him on hols seen as we have beach shots of Roger and Nole: http://www.laineygossip.com/pics/rafael%20nadal%2021july10%2001.jpg (from July 2010)

yummymummy wrote: Well I can Lydian !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Spit and polish works wonders

eww, spitting on a t**d?
Wash your mouth out yummy!

lydian wrote:In this regard, guys like Nadal and Federer are both graced through genetics (speed and endurance) and then enhance that with training - and its gruelling regimes for both of them.

How do you know? How do you know what is the genetic part and what is training and diet? Look at Djoko, it looked like his physique was his weakness and then suddenly it's his strength.

But of course this is only a small part of the overall "talent" picture...stroke making, footwork/movement, tactics, etc, etc.

That's the problem when the physique is very strong and you can hammer heavy top spin balls all day, all teh talent the opponent may have is broken by the energy of teh ball sent. Federer for instance never gets beaten tactically but what can get him is if the ball he has to deal carries lots of energy like v Safin on rare occasion or versus Nadal. Nadal's tactics are very simple and always teh same but no one can reproduce the weight of his shots. This is why only Nadal can play this tactic and trouble him.

It's no different than McEnroe 's touch game suddenly being overwhelmed in 1985 by the power players like Lendl, Becker, Sampras etc....Players, bar Lendl, who learnt the game with teh larger frames.

Tenez, I didnt quote the levels of innate/trained. But it clearly stands to reason these guys have higher levels than the average population (i.e. graced through genetics) because they have risen above the rest from an early age physically, their innate fitness/stamina/recovery levels will be obviously better than Mr Average.
Then yes they train to increase mitochondrial concentration further.

Federer also uses a machine called BEBER3000 that he "carries" around with him on tour to further boost his mitochondrial count and boost oxygen carrying capacity to enhance performance and recovery.
You might find this interesting reading: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/alternative_medicine/article7068678.ece

Again, its part of Roger's very serious approach to fitness training and physical conditioning.

"That doctor, Igor Cetojevic, began working with Djokovic in July before the Davis Cup quarterfinal in Croatia."

"Cetojevic’s Web site says that he holds a diploma from the Indian Institute of Magnetotherapy in New Delhi and that he specializes in working with advanced biofeedback systems, including S.C.I.O., or Scientific Conscious Interface Operator, a device that measures 16 “standard electrical parameters of the body” in an attempt to detect and treat areas of stress or imbalance and can be used to help combat allergies."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/01/sports/tennis/01iht-TENNIS01.html

From your "BEMER 3000" link ...

"Exposure to the magnetic field improves the blood flow and raises oxygen levels in the blood thereby relaxing the muscles and speeding up the healing process. Its makers make a number of other claims for it on their website, including strengthening the immune system through increased T-cell release, stress relief and faster post-operative and sporting injury recovery."

"But it revives the natural magnetism of the body, and promotes the body's natural self-healing processes. This can really make an impact on recovery times.”

But... this part bothers me a bit...

"But it certainly got better during the period of therapy and my hunch is that Bemer played its part."

The link between Electricity and Magnetism was established in 1830s by James Clerk Maxwell. MRI imaging and electrical and magnetic mappings of top athletes (if possible during a tennis match) would provide a fascinating insight. I have read quite a bit in research on Autism and reading some of the current work is like reading a treatise on physics, mathematics, biology, chemistry rolled into one complex object - a human being.

My son has gluten-related issues so it does not surprise me that Novak had similar challenges. His (and my son's - both) asthma and other allergies seem very manageable with a gluten-free diet.

Good stuff LF. In general, all allergies trigger inflammatory responses in our bodies which can then exacerbate other inflammatory-sensitive processes, e.g. asthma, ezcema and other things. Biological science has been increasingly understanding for a while that inflammation is at the heart of many many disease processes (if not most) and physical conditions, e.g. alzheimers, atherosclerosis, CHD, and various auto-immune conditions like SLE, RA. Other conditions as I mentioend before are related to poor mitochondrial functioning too, e.g. CFS and FMS (and heart failure too - CFS patients effectively have heart failure actually). Electromagnetism I suspect somehow inteferes with inflammatory signalling, to allow the body's immune system to gain a foothold in trying to repair itself. For autism there is quite compelling evidence of it being linked to inflammation of the brain (e.g. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201104/autism-inflammation-speculation-and-nutrition). Maybe that gluten-free diet will help keep overall systemic inflammation down, and maybe electromagnetism could help too. Chinese medicine practitioners use it alot for example in treating another inflammatory condition IBD (inflammatory bowel disease), and also IBS will is less well known but again has pain linked to inflammation and neuro-signalling disruption. We still dont fuly understand how cell signalling works (hence we cant find definitive cures for all cancers) so we dont know how these methods work properly. But they do...

Anyway, our diets are probably the cause of many diseases we experience at a younger age than we should. They trigger inflammatory responses which then get out of control and spiral through our bodies. So, in Novak's case gluten allergy could have been seriously holding him back due to sub-optimal mitochondrial/fuel functioning and poor recovery. It could have also exacerbated his underyling respiratory condition making matters even worse. And we did used to see him tire quite easily in matches sometimes so that would suggest he wasnt processing energy in his cells properly - perhaps due to low systemic inflammation.

So on the athletic level, stress of physical activity will result in constant damage/inflammatory responses so can imagine the electromagnetic approaches Federer and Djokovic take help restore recovery post-matches quicker, plus they increase mitochondrial count as I mentioned thereby boosting performance for the next match too. And in Novak's case cutting bread and using this method has revolutionised his health and I imagine has given him a massive mental boost too.

The link on Autism you posted is very interesting.

Nadal uses Hydrotherapy to achieve similar results that Djokovic and Federer achieve with their respective choices.

Photographs are not a reliable way of assessing body size and musculature.

As we all know, they can be photoshopped, altered, brushed etc.

Has anyone seen all three players in the flesh?

I have, and I can say for certain that Nadal is massive. He is bulky, his arms are huge and his chest to back diameter is huge. His legs are like tree trunks.

Comparatively, on TV he looks more slender.

Infact, the first time my friend and I saw Rafa practising from close up we were amazed at how big he is. The word we used was 'tonk' (if anyone understands this slang). Likewise most of the onlookers shared our surprise at how big he is. It is no surprise that commentators constantly refer to his build and size - they see him close up all the time.

I work out with weights at least three times a week and have been doing so for five years. I have a good eye for musculature and appreciating muscle size. I can state with certainty that if Rafa were to attend the same gym as I do (a large gym in a major UK city centre) he would be one of the biggest guys in the gym.

Both federer and Djokovic appear tall and slender and considerably less muscular than Nadal.

Sorry I'm just not buying that at all.

Look at this photo from WTF 2010...
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://view1.picapp.com/pictures.photo/image/10250863/atp-world-tour-finals-day/atp-world-tour-finals-day.jpg%3Fsize%3D500%26imageId%3D10250863&imgrefurl=http://adjustingthenet.com/2010/12/18/nadal-federer-djokovic-and-murray-as-always/&usg=__jeB-9hF_XXekNU8HeC_4-_w93Xk=&h=324&w=500&sz=56&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=9N-Rf1gFFAMopM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=192&ei=nusiTrezFYWi8QON-tmeAw&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dnadal%2Bfederer%2Bdjokovic%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D746%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&page=1&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:20,s:0&tx=66&ty=64&biw=1280&bih=746
or
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/images/photos/001/068/563/93253654_crop_650x440.jpg?1289584440
or
http://www.sportsbetting.ag/news/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/nadal-djokovic-mc.jpg
or


Federer is clearly broader than Nadal across the shoulders and chest, Murray and Djokovic similar.
One of the biggest guys in your gym? You must be joking, I think not.
He has a mesomorphic frame/trunk but he's not particularly broad.
Sure the guy is no wimp and trains hard but he's no Schwarzenegger - the photos show the size of him, his overall frame is no bigger.

I've also seen him live practising and actually I thought the opposite, how slim and smaller he looks in real life - its well known TV tends to add weight to people.

Seen Nadal from up close maybe no more 2 to 3 yards away playing at indian wells. He is actually much skinnier in person than what you see on TV so are all the players. Novak in particular has slender wasteline and a very narrow frame. obviously all these guys train very hard. I am still waiting for someone to point to a single match that Federer has noticeably cramped in. That is why I find this whole argument that Roger loses just to players who are fitter and more physical so amusing, it has literally no basis in fact.

Seen Nadal from up close maybe no more 2 to 3 yards away playing at indian wells. He is actually much skinnier in person than what you see on TV so are all the players. Novak in particular has slender wasteline and a very narrow frame. obviously all these guys train very hard. I am still waiting for someone to point to a single match that Federer has noticeably cramped in. That is why I find this whole argument that Roger loses just to players who are fitter and more physical so amusing, it has literally no basis in fact.

Never mind cramping, where has he even been visibly 'knackered' in a match? It doesnt happen because Federer is one of the fittest guys on tour and has been for years.

Hello



I believe Specsavers are still operating.

Where for art thou oh bOOOOOOOOOOooooooooo00000000000.......?

Woe is meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Lydian, never, I haven't seen him tired. Honestly after most matches the guy doesn't look like he needs a shower. It is true Roger is just not a sweaty guy. But that is partially in reflection to how good a condition he is in and also how effortless his style of play is. I bet Roger uses a lot less calories up in an average match when compared with murray, Novak, and certainly when it comes to Nadal. He takes it earlier, is aggressive early on more than the others, and gets more free points on serve. This argument, Lydian, really is completely unsupported by any facts. It is just made up by Tenez and repeatedly trumpted by extreme Roger fans to the point that people start believing it. When has anyone seen federer tired or cramping?

Exactly...its just used as a cover to explain his poor 5 set record (and it is poor for his overall record). They would rather try to say he's some finely tuned race horse who cant run for long than a purposively trained fitness machine who often mentally folds in 5 set matches when the matches get tight. As you say the observation does not support the racehorse argument - the match against Nadal in Rome 06 is the proof anyone needs that the guy is as fit as anyone out there, and fitter than most of them - thats the way he's been trained and as we have also heard, using electromagnetic technology to recover quikcly and boost his performance.

Its funny, how we hear tenez knock Nadal for having new surgeries that would otherwise prolong his career. But Nadal doesn't do anything dramatically different than other pros. These guys are all using the most advanced methods out there to further their careers and their fitness. The Rome match in particular is an excellent match that shows how fit fed really is. In that match he played a great deal of lengthy points with Nadal and 5 hours 15 minutes he lost that match on clay but had match points on his racquet. He never looked tired in that match. He again showed an inability however in that match to capitalize on a slew of break points against Rafa Nadal from the first set all the way to the 5th. Showing that if anything he got tight on big points, and not that he was tired or destroyed physically by the 4th and 5th set.

I also think that match in particular was the start of the rot for Roger against Rafa. But like you say he went toe to toe the whole way. Yep, they all use different ways to recover as best they can, after all they are athletes. All sports are highly technical across all levels these days...Federer was never any different, but some like to think its just his sheer talent that wins matches when the underlying fitness is also a key factor, as it is for all the top 5. Like I said before, the best talent is the guy who can use all his talents to extract the win.

The Rome 06 was match at Federer's peak (92-5 season). Compared to 2005 (81-4) and 2007 (68-9).

Other seasons 2008 (66-15 - Olympic year), 2009 (61-12) and 2010 (65-13) are smaller in terms of total matches played.

Has his fitness remained the same over the years? He has withdrawn from several events (rather than play tired, over the years).

lydian wrote:I also think that match in particular was the start of the rot for Roger against Rafa.

Clay was always different for Rafa till now.

Actually, I got that wrong and happy to admit so. I thought the run prior to Rome was different but as it turns out, up to and after Rome it was 5-1 to Nadal. 3 wins on clay, 2 on hardcourt.
So its fair to say Rafa has been a thorn in Rogers side from Day 1 really. Anyway that Rome match was a classic - Roger actually won 5 more pts than Rafa and had better stats in a number of areas but still lost. Showed Rafa's ability to grind it out, despite losing the 4th set 6-2.

Lydian, I actually think the quality of the 06 Rome final was better than the 08 wimby or 07. As laverfan has indicated Federer in the spring of 2006 was a machine playing the most consistently sublime tennis I have ever seen. He had Nadal on Clay in a 5 set match. Of course everyone remembers wimbeldon but that was after Fed's mono crisis and in 08 Roger was not the same Roger that he was in 05, just scintallating stuff.

... and to turn around in 2010 and beat a counterpuncher in AO 2010 finals shows the longevity and economical style that he employs.

Even in 2011, Isner played a five-setter with Nadal, but Federer played a four-setter with Nadal and Djokovic, both. Interesting.

From 2003-2011, Federer has been in the Top 10, which is 8 years.

Edit: In Top 10 from 14 Oct 2002 (#7) to current #3, which is ~9 years. 2012 Olympics would be a landmark 10 years for him and looks very likely that he will at least stay in top 10.

Rosewall, in contrast, spent 12 years in Top 10, #2 in 1953, 55-56, 70, 72,
#3 in 1954, 68, 71, #4 in 1969, #5 in 1973, #7 in 1974 and #10 in 1975.
And Rosewall did it in a much less 'physical' era.

Indeed LF, Sampras also spent 12 yrs in top 10 (y/e ranking), and 13th yr was #13. What was amazing about Sampras was that 1989 he was #81 and then 1990 #5, quite some rise.

Good points socal, agree that Rome was the best match they ever played and I was proud to have watched all 5 hours and 5 mins of it. Agree Federer was weaker at AO08, but I dont believe it affected the rest of the slams that year - after all he got to finals of FO. SW19 and won USO. Its too overstated in my book, he was no Ancic. But I agree his stay in the top 10 has been exemplary.

I'm shocked! 2 days later and Gallery play still hasn't answered my simple question; which possible excercise would Federer be doing with 150kg of weight while knee bending? For a self proclaim 'knowledgeable' gym enthusiast GP, it's taking too long to answer. You need help?

Seems to me like 606v2 has become the official Roger Federer Fan Club.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Seems to me like 606v2 has become the official Roger Federer Fan Club.

I don't think I have come to quite the same conclusion as you Craig

What a strange discussion; is anyone trying to argue players aren't fit?

I always thought the issue with Nadal was that he WASN'T fit enough to play his game without breaking the rules on time to aid recovery. To me, players can be as fit as they like. Doesn't mean the resultant tennis is what someone wants to watch, or whether it means the most "talented" wins, but those are secondary questions and subjective.

No, the only time fitness enters into it is if a player has to break the rules to play his game. Does Nadal do that? If he couldn't would that not be changing the balance of power at the top?

time please wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Seems to me like 606v2 has become the official Roger Federer Fan Club.

I don't think I have come to quite the same conclusion as you Craig

We are not there, yet. Fedal debates can be boring after a point.

Did anyone watch Stuttgart or Bastad? Soderling was imperious in beating Ferrer.

laverfan wrote:

time please wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Seems to me like 606v2 has become the official Roger Federer Fan Club.

I don't think I have come to quite the same conclusion as you Craig

We are not there, yet. Fedal debates can be boring after a point.

Did anyone watch Stuttgart or Bastad? Soderling was imperious in beating Ferrer.

No laver, I didn't watch either but read the reports re Soderling and Ferrer - Sod has been disappointing recently - maybe he is peaking just in time for US? I love Ferrer - he is such a terrier!

JCF in Stuttgart showed glimpses of his clay prowess in beating Andujar.

bogbrush wrote: I always thought the issue with Nadal was that he WASN'T fit enough to play his game without breaking the rules on time to aid recovery

Where is the evidence for that? This is the story Tenez trots out all the time.

lydian wrote:

bogbrush wrote: I always thought the issue with Nadal was that he WASN'T fit enough to play his game without breaking the rules on time to aid recovery

Where is the evidence for that? This is the story Tenez trots out all the time.

You are opening a can of worms, Lydian. There are time warnings and player protests and they are well documented too.

lydian wrote:

bogbrush wrote: I always thought the issue with Nadal was that he WASN'T fit enough to play his game without breaking the rules on time to aid recovery

Where is the evidence for that? This is the story Tenez trots out all the time.

Well the evidence for the rule breaking is there in every match, that's not a matter of controversy.

The evidence for the cause is circumstantial and tough to prove conclusively because of course we don't see what happens when he plays inside the rules, because he doesn't. He did cite a statement by Tsonga to the same effect a while back (I don't have the source) which was fascinating, suggesting this isn't a madcap theory but may well be shared by players.

I'm amazed this debate is still going on! Over 10 days later and still going on. Might make more sense to agree to disagree.

I agree there is no evidence yes (that he extends time to physically recover)!

Therefore LF - the can has no evidential worms.

There is evidence. Lat time Nadal played a 5 setter within the 20s rule he ran out of steam losing the last 6 games. Amazing from the player who as the best 5 setter record of the history of the game.

Only Lydian and a few other biased posters would not want to "see" this as evidence.

I don't even care if Nadal does use gamesmanship and bend the rules. He isn't the only player on tour to do it, and it has been a part of the tour since at least the 70s with the likes of Nastase and Connors. Personally, I don't think Nadal purposely takes MTOs or has created his routine to slow the game down consciously. But if he has, more power to him. I liken tennis in some respects to poker, it is a mental battle, it is about maintaining focus similar to poker and just like poker it involves a great deal of gamesmanship at the highest levels and always has. Its cutthroat competition and I actually enjoy watching the matches more when I know their is some bad blood or history in a rivalry. As a top pro you have to be able to deal with these sort of distractions, even from an opponent trying to massage the rules and get under your skin. People complain about Nadal or Djokovic bouncing the ball too much, these guys are pikers when it comes to gamesmanship and psychological warfare when compared to a large number of past champions. In fact, can't see much of what they do as giving them any type of unfair advantage.

socal1976 wrote:I don't even care if Nadal does use gamesmanship and bend the rules. He isn't the only player on tour to do it, and it has been a part of the tour since at least the 70s with the likes of Nastase and Connors. Personally, I don't think Nadal purposely takes MTOs or has created his routine to slow the game down consciously. But if he has, more power to him. I liken tennis in some respects to poker, it is a mental battle, it is about maintaining focus similar to poker and just like poker it involves a great deal of gamesmanship at the highest levels and always has. Its cutthroat competition and I actually enjoy watching the matches more when I know their is some bad blood or history in a rivalry. As a top pro you have to be able to deal with these sort of distractions, even from an opponent trying to massage the rules and get under your skin. People complain about Nadal or Djokovic bouncing the ball too much, these guys are pikers when it comes to gamesmanship and psychological warfare when compared to a large number of past champions. In fact, can't see much of what they do as giving them any type of unfair advantage.

Gamesmanship is not the point here...that's another can of worms.

But that is what you are suggesting, that Nadal has a carefully calibrated routine designed to give him an unfair advantage and to break up his opponents timing. There is a school of thought that would simply chalk this type of behavior up to psyching out an opponent and testing his belief and focus. Its up to the ATP to enforce the rules, and if they aren't enforcing certain rules than players will take note of that and use that grey area to their advantage. I mean the socalled bad sportsmanship that Nadal and Novak are accused of is really beginner stuff when compared to Mac and Connors. You want gamesmanship try playing connors at the US open.

socal1976 wrote:But that is what you are suggesting, that Nadal has a carefully calibrated routine designed to give him an unfair advantage and to break up his opponents timing.

That's 2 different things. We are only discussing the former here regarding the physicality of his game.

Well that is what you are talking about Tenez. My answer to this grievance would be a big fat, "so what". It has been part of the game for generations. If you are a world class pro, then you should be able to beat your opponent if he bounces the ball too much or calls a strategic MTO. This is a multimillion dollar competition, if you want to be the best you have to battle through some of these things.