The greatest most deadly locks in history....!

Who were the greatest partnership, death defying leaping into the air like Salmon from a river, fighting on the floor for the ball like terriers, bulldozer runners in the lose and a tackle count that would make your average flanker seem lazy.

Who were the greatest?

Johnson and Kay - England 2003

G Whetton and M Pierce - NZ 1987

Botha and Matfield - SA - 2007

Williams and Jack - ABs mid 00's

Strydom and Andrews - SA 1995 and 97

Brown and McBride - Lions 71 and 74

Pelous and Benazzi - France Late 90s

O'Connell and O'Callaghan - Ireland Current

Dooley and Ackford - England early 90s

Eales and Giffin - Australia late 90's

Johnson and Davidson - Lions 97

Botha and Matfield for me. A superb combo which compliment each other perfectly and still going strong.

Arguably there are better individuals around like Thorn, Johnson, Eales, O'Connell etc. who would challenge but the Botha/ Matfield combo stands out for me as the best.

Most deadly locks in history? Constable Dooley would start fighting before the match and afterwards. Made most other locks look like librarians.

Willie John McBride & Gordon Brown

doctor_grey wrote:Most deadly locks in history? Constable Dooley would start fighting before the match and afterwards. Made most other locks look like librarians.

And to think some one would let a meat head of that reputation join the police force???

maestegmafia wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Most deadly locks in history? Constable Dooley would start fighting before the match and afterwards. Made most other locks look like librarians.

And to think some one would let a meat head of that reputation join the police force???

. Have ye not many coopers maesteg particularily the south welsh variety. I played against south wales police in then mid-nineties they would of made any side look like soon as they started getting punchey as hell

I went for Willie John McBride and Broonie, arguably the best lock partnership in the history of the Lions.

I also remember Willie John McBride giving an interview and he talked about when he was talking to Broonie as he was dying of cancer and reminded him that they never lost a test match whilst playing together.... moving moment to say the least

Botha and Matfield are the best combination I've ever seen.

For England, I always preferred Johnson and Grewcock to Johnson and Kay, even though it was the latter that won together in 2003 (Kay didn't have a great game).

tecphobe wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Most deadly locks in history? Constable Dooley would start fighting before the match and afterwards. Made most other locks look like librarians.

And to think some one would let a meat head of that reputation join the police force???

. Have ye not many coopers maesteg particularily the south welsh variety. I played against south wales police in then mid-nineties they would of made any side look like soon as they started getting punchey as hell

I played against them too, as well as hong kong police and a few other police teams, all the same...!

Just got a speeding ticket from them so they are not in my good books, sod the lot of them and watch out for the cameras on the M4 near Newbury i think they must be unmarked...

i vote for eales and giffin as i think they were a much underated combination and i think john eales is a total gentleman for an australian and possibly the greated rugby player that country has ever produced

As a partnership I have gone for Botha and Matfield though I don't neccessarily think they are the best individuals.

Norster was one of the best around as was Geoff Wheel but never really formed a great partnership.

Botha and Matfield. No lock pairing has played together more. They've played a big part in winning a World Cup too. Their skills compliment each other well. They really are a pairing.

red_stag wrote:Botha and Matfield. No lock pairing has played together more. They've played a big part in winning a World Cup too. Their skills compliment each other well. They really are a pairing.

Geoff Wheel and Delme Thomas was a great welsh pairing, about the only one i can think of, like you said a few individuals like Allan Martin and Bob Norster but few pairings

funnyExiledScot wrote:Botha and Matfield are the best combination I've ever seen.

For England, I always preferred Johnson and Grewcock to Johnson and Kay, even though it was the latter that won together in 2003 (Kay didn't have a great game).

Grewcock is just a hooligan though. I'm certain if he was not a Pro Rugby player he would have been in Prison.

Here is just a wee look at his brushes with the IRB citing commisioner :

June 20, 1998: Sent off during England's 64-22 defeat against New Zealand in Dunedin for alleged use of the boot when a scrum collapsed. Five-week ban.

September 8, 2002: Sent off in his second Premiership game as Bath captain for alleged use of the boot against his former club Saracens at Vicarage Road. Five-week ban subsequently overturned on appeal.

May 25, 2003: Sent off for punching Lawrence Dallaglio in Parker Pen Shield final. Two-week ban. Suspension cost him a place on England's summer tour to New Zealand and Australia.

June 19, 2004: Cited for stamping during England's second Test defeat against New Zealand in Auckland. Banned for six weeks.

February 2, 2005: Cleared by the Rugby Football Union to play for England in Six Nations opener against Wales having appeared to stamp on Lawrence Dallaglio during a Premiership match against Wasps.

February 5, 2005: Sin-binned for use of the boot in England's 11-9 defeat to Wales at the Millennium Stadium.

June 25, 2005: Cited for allegedly biting New Zealand hooker Keven Mealamu 63 minutes into the Lions' 21-3 first Test defeat. Banned for two months.

May 22, 2007: Cited for allegedly punching Thibault Privat in Bath's European Challenge Cup final defeat to Clermont Auvergne. Banned for six weeks, covering England's three August Tests and the first two World Cup matches.

January 23, 2010: Sent off for stamping on Ulster flanker Stephen Ferris in a 28-10 Heineken Cup defeat. Banned for seven weeks.

I mean come on the man is an Animal! I would like to thank Blood and Mud for this one too, a flow chart that explains Danny Grewcock's chain of thought when approaching a breakdown.

Spoiler:

www.bloodandmud.com

The weird thing about Grewcock is everyone says he's pussycat off the field. Really nice guy. Then on the pitch he just switches.

"Arguably there are better individuals around like Thorn, Johnson, Eales, O'Connell etc."

Dont forget the legend that is Norm Hadley!!!!

Colin Meads and Ken Gray were a pretty fricking awesome combo in their day.
They were a pair of bears and everyone was terrified of them.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Botha and Matfield are the best combination I've ever seen.

For England, I always preferred Johnson and Grewcock to Johnson and Kay, even though it was the latter that won together in 2003 (Kay didn't have a great game).

Grewcock is just a hooligan though. I'm certain if he was not a Pro Rugby player he would have been in Prison.

Here is just a wee look at his brushes with the IRB citing commisioner :

June 20, 1998: Sent off during England's 64-22 defeat against New Zealand in Dunedin for alleged use of the boot when a scrum collapsed. Five-week ban.

September 8, 2002: Sent off in his second Premiership game as Bath captain for alleged use of the boot against his former club Saracens at Vicarage Road. Five-week ban subsequently overturned on appeal.

May 25, 2003: Sent off for punching Lawrence Dallaglio in Parker Pen Shield final. Two-week ban. Suspension cost him a place on England's summer tour to New Zealand and Australia.

June 19, 2004: Cited for stamping during England's second Test defeat against New Zealand in Auckland. Banned for six weeks.

February 2, 2005: Cleared by the Rugby Football Union to play for England in Six Nations opener against Wales having appeared to stamp on Lawrence Dallaglio during a Premiership match against Wasps.

February 5, 2005: Sin-binned for use of the boot in England's 11-9 defeat to Wales at the Millennium Stadium.

June 25, 2005: Cited for allegedly biting New Zealand hooker Keven Mealamu 63 minutes into the Lions' 21-3 first Test defeat. Banned for two months.

May 22, 2007: Cited for allegedly punching Thibault Privat in Bath's European Challenge Cup final defeat to Clermont Auvergne. Banned for six weeks, covering England's three August Tests and the first two World Cup matches.

January 23, 2010: Sent off for stamping on Ulster flanker Stephen Ferris in a 28-10 Heineken Cup defeat. Banned for seven weeks.

I mean come on the man is an Animal! I would like to thank Blood and Mud for this one too, a flow chart that explains Danny Grewcock's chain of thought when approaching a breakdown.

Spoiler:

www.bloodandmud.com

I do agree with this, sadly - just because you're an utter thug doesn't make you a good rugby player and to compare him and Martin Johnson is, frankly, farcical.

HammerofThunor wrote:The weird thing about Grewcock is everyone says he's pussycat off the field. Really nice guy. Then on the pitch he just switches.

I'm not sure stan collymore thinks he's a pussycat off the pitch.....

Who was comparing Grewcock to Martin Johnson? I was merely saying that Johnson/Grewcock was a better combination than Johnson/Kay.

I stand by that opinon, regardless of Grewcock's various discipline issues. He was a very good player.

roddersm wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:The weird thing about Grewcock is everyone says he's pussycat off the field. Really nice guy. Then on the pitch he just switches.

I'm not sure stan collymore thinks he's a pussycat off the pitch.....

Likewise can be said about Iron Mike Teague, the bloke was a monster on the pitch and hard as nails never took backwar step etc.

BUT I have been luckily enough to have had the pleasure of meeting him on a few occasions in his bar at Glawster and he always has teime to speak to fans and have photos taken with them.

Even, if on mnay occasions fans are 3 sheets to the wind as they say.

without even seeing the options I went for Botha and Matfield. They are just an awesome combination.

To the best of my knowledge Ken Gray was never capped as a Lock for the
All Blacks only Wellington.
All Blacks,the Brothers Meads,Meads and Peter Whiting,
Meads and Stewart,Meads and MacEwan,Whiting and Haden,Tiny White and Bob Duff,Meads and Tiny Hill,Jack and Thorn,Jack and Williams,Williams and Thorn. all good combo`s.
Just because Matfield and Botha played the most does`nt mean they were the best that is just a matter of opinion.especially of those who have very
short memories.

Since Superman wears Paul O'Connell pyjamas surely he wins this hands down?

red_stag wrote:Botha and Matfield. No lock pairing has played together more. They've played a big part in winning a World Cup too. Their skills compliment each other well. They really are a pairing.

I'm with RS on this one

Pierce amd whetton hardly played in a losing test together but ill check.

I like Grewcock - I won loads of money betting on him to throw the first punch. as a Rugby player he had talent, but was as useful as a chocolate teapot because of his diciplinary problems

Matfield & botha for me.

Taylorman wrote:Pierce amd whetton hardly played in a losing test together but ill check.

did they play when france beat them in nantes, they did shelford had his testicles injured and played on!!!

Yeah nantes or the 86 oz loss i wasnt sure about as i know they never lost till 90 by which pierce wasnt playing.

whetton and matfield are the two best second rows i have ever seen

Whetton and Pierce had a 90% win record 2 losses and draw from 26 tests including and unbeaten World cup year

Has any of the combinations a better record?

Personally I would rate Eales as the best non AB lock I have seen with probably Matfield next. Eales stamped his authority on NZ rugby like very few players have. Even kicked a winning last minute penalty in one test!

AB locks through history just get on with the job of doing one thing- helping to win test matches.

Crittle and Heming in 1958 Wallabies locks,Claasan and Avril Malan in the 1960`s were very good.for the Boks.
They were traditional types did the grunt stuff at set piece,ruck and maul in the days when packs defended and attacked as an 8 man unit.
People would do better to think great teams 1-15 where all are just efficent
rather than a couple of so called stars.

Have an interesting report from a local rag Alan. Sports writer Joseph Romanos choosing a 1966 Lions replay on a flight home and his comparisons with today.

I knew most of it but put the way he does sure shows how different it is today...

I'll post it next day or two...

I made a scrapbook from newspaper reports,it was a period when NZ Rugby
was on top of the world.Freddie Allans first year as coach he had the vets like Kel Tremain,Colin Meads jumping through hoops.
Tremain in particular was in tremendous form,Fred the Needle had them playing structured running Rugby.
He turned Fergie McCormack from a great counter attacking full back,but average Goal kicker to a great one.
The midfield backs were Earl Kirton.Bill Davis,and others from the great 1963-4 side.
Every new player was given a rule book and discipline concerning transgressing them was like being in the army.
Fred had a 100 % record versus every one but the Boks,when the greats more or less retired 1968-9
Then the wilderness years of the 1970`s

The greatest most deadly locks in history.......surely belonged to Samson

emack2 wrote:To the best of my knowledge Ken Gray was never capped as a Lock for the
All Blacks only Wellington.
All Blacks,the Brothers Meads,Meads and Peter Whiting,
Meads and Stewart,Meads and MacEwan,Whiting and Haden,Tiny White and Bob Duff,Meads and Tiny Hill,Jack and Thorn,Jack and Williams,Williams and Thorn. all good combo`s.
Just because Matfield and Botha played the most does`nt mean they were the best that is just a matter of opinion.especially of those who have very
short memories.

If you ask nicely the moderators or admins may add at your request. But be nice as they don't have to help cover my glaring omissions.

Colin Meads and Peter Whiting, and also Colin Meads with Brian Lochore were a scary bunch. I don't know if there are two bigger legends of All Black rugby than Meads and Lochore. Although in Colin Meads case, similar to Danny Grewcock his reputation was far more about skullduggery and thuggery than just being a fantastic rugby player.

Colin Meads played in an era of no nonsense Rugby ALL sides had an enforcer.Players often resorted to the fist to settle things ,but were far more open than the sly thuggery that goes on now.
The Pinetree had a reputation,as a no nonsense player so you did`nt mess with him.
He was one of only two test players sent off for dangerous play,off balance
he took a lunge at the ball with his foot.Alex Hastie was following up the crossed close together.
There was no contact ,nor was there any intent to kick Hastie careless rather than dangerous but the Ref thought differently.
When Andy Haden first dived from the lineout to win a penalty against King Country.Piney chased him all over the field wanting vengeance.
THE best all round Lock I have ever seen,started as a side row player than moved in .Six foot3 or 4 and 16 stone was about standard for his era.
Brother Stan the Teatree,was barely Six foot one,short for a lock but was one of THE great line out forwards,rated by many as better than his elder sibling.
Sir Colin always said his best partner was his brother.

Colin Meads played in an era of no nonsense Rugby ALL sides had an enforcer.Players often resorted to the fist to settle things ,but were far more open than the sly thuggery that goes on now.
The Pinetree had a reputation,as a no nonsense player so you did`nt mess with him.
He was one of only two test players sent off for dangerous play,off balance
he took a lunge at the ball with his foot.Alex Hastie was following up the crossed close together.
There was no contact ,nor was there any intent to kick Hastie careless rather than dangerous but the Ref thought differently.
When Andy Haden first dived from the lineout to win a penalty against King Country.Piney chased him all over the field wanting vengeance.
THE best all round Lock I have ever seen,started as a side row player than moved in .Six foot3 or 4 and 16 stone was about standard for his era.
Brother Stan the Teatree,was barely Six foot one,short for a lock but was one of THE great line out forwards,rated by many as better than his elder sibling.
Sir Colin always said his best partner was his brother.

emack2 wrote:Colin Meads played in an era of no nonsense Rugby ALL sides had an enforcer.Players often resorted to the fist to settle things ,but were far more open than the sly thuggery that goes on now.
The Pinetree had a reputation,as a no nonsense player so you did`nt mess with him.
He was one of only two test players sent off for dangerous play,off balance
he took a lunge at the ball with his foot.Alex Hastie was following up the crossed close together.

He also finished Ken Catchpoles carrier... Which I think tarnished his international reputation more. He tried to tear Catchpoles leg off while he was stuck in a ruck. It was one of the most unnecessary uses of violence ever scene on a rugby pitch. Catchpole was Australia's best player.

With due respect Meads played in an era of non-PC rugby,Meads grabbed and pulled a player Ken Catchpole out of a ruck by his leg,The intent was NOT to deliberately injure him that was cause and effect.He also decked David Watkins when Watkins threw a punch.
Colin Meads certainly had a Reputation as a hard man,ALL AB and BOK players of his era played that way.
Have you heard of Riot Call 99? the famous 1974 lions ultimate deterrent in SA tour.
On hearing a call of it ALL the players started punching the nearest SA player on the theory the Ref could`nt send them all off !!
Meads has a rep of maybe a dirty player,but it was`nt intentionally dangerous like eye gouging,and it does`nt detract from the fact he was a great player.

emack2 wrote:With due respect Meads played in an era of non-PC rugby,Meads grabbed and pulled a player Ken Catchpole out of a ruck by his leg,The intent was NOT to deliberately injure him that was cause and effect.He also decked David Watkins when Watkins threw a punch.
Colin Meads certainly had a Reputation as a hard man,ALL AB and BOK players of his era played that way.
Have you heard of Riot Call 99? the famous 1974 lions ultimate deterrent in SA tour.
On hearing a call of it ALL the players started punching the nearest SA player on the theory the Ref could`nt send them all off !!
Meads has a rep of maybe a dirty player,but it was`nt intentionally dangerous like eye gouging,and it does`nt detract from the fact he was a great player.

The Catchpole incident was terrible - apparently the calf muscle was almost entirely torn off the bone - but Meads was apparently distraught later at what he'd done.

Not quite sure if we're voting for the most fearsome locks or best winning combos.

I like Eales and Giffin, but they were way too gentlemanly to be considered fearsome, they did their job and Eales also won the cup twice... and how many other locks took kicks for their side??

For the winning combo than the boks paring I would have thought.

I woudl have thoughyt, from the list, for fearsome as in aggressively punchy, then Dooley and Ackford will be it? I think Pinetrees must've been frightening but never saw him play live, only read about him when I was a kid, but yeah sounds like those days everyside had someone like that.

Imagine if Mike Teague had decided to play 2nd row, now him and Dooley would be the most frightening locks.

emack2 wrote:With due respect Meads played in an era of non-PC rugby,Meads grabbed and pulled a player Ken Catchpole out of a ruck by his leg,The intent was NOT to deliberately injure him that was cause and effect.

I lived through that era and I was in Australia when it happened. Catchpole was not pulled out by his leg and not in the way he was for any due reason other to injure him.

emack2 wrote:Meads has a rep of maybe a dirty player,but it was`nt intentionally dangerous like eye gouging,

I have seen Meads along with many others of that era stick fingers in eyes, he wasnt alone, part of the 99 call you talked about was to deal with the gouging that the lions of 74 were suffering at the hands of the Bok.

emack2 wrote:and it does`nt detract from the fact he was a great player.

I am afraid I think it does but that is my personal opinion. Meads was a great player for sure, but as he got old and his myth grew around the world and at home, he became less a player and more a tyrant.

Meads was a top player, the catchpole incident goes against him as does breaking jeff youngs jaw but at least he did warn young he was about to punch him

The fact is that Matfield and Botha has been at the top for a consistently long time, with the odd bad game here and there, but no one comes close to their achievements. They have won it all, super titles, Currie cup titles and World Cup.

Went for Botha and Matfield. Best combo Ive ever seen.

I'm not sure who you'd partner him with to get the best combo...but surely the deadliest lock of all time would be Blair Mayne!

Alan youre certainly right about the enforcer thing.
Every team had to have at least 2 or 3 biffos to sort the incidents.
Thats the way rugby was.
Another nzer alby pryor. Never made the abs as was considered too rough. Played many for nz maori.
Norm hewit admitted lately that all ended with the removal of rucking. Admitted he was only in the game to hurt people and only stayed around for the money.
One of the real differences between then and todays game.
Mind you. Someone still hasnt told bakkies!